Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Obiwanshinobi]

Is Contra Advance: The Alien Wars EX any good, like, by the Game Boy r&g standards? Sounds like a lazy patchwork, but it's not like it costs full price anymore.

[copy-paster]

The only NG NES game i've ever beat is NG3 (japanese version, it has less damage and enemies and more enjoyable to play) and NG2 (dying alot in final boss section, but i finally deal with them). NG1 is preety tough especially the 2nd form final boss, still can't beat until today

And I thought Haunted Castle (AC) and CV the Adventure is the worst Castlevania games ever
Because for it's bad level design (The Adventure even more annoying stages), lots of cheap moments and confusing hitboxes.

Dracula X SNES is good for me, it has a most epic Dracula battle in the series

[BIL]

Is Contra Advance: The Alien Wars EX any good, like, by the Game Boy r&g standards?

It's not that great. I remember you mentioning not liking the big sprites in Alien Soldier - Hard Spirits is exactly like that, except with Contra instant kills. Feels very unwieldy in GBA res. The MUGEN-like Hard Corps stages are shoddy too, especially as you can't slide.

Gunstar Super Heroes and Metal Slug Advance are way better for GBA, as are Contra and Bionic Commando on GB.

[Obiwanshinobi]

So I guess I'm gonna give it a miss, thanks.

[Imhotep]

reg. Actraiser 2 version differences: I've only played on SFC but I've watched the AGDQ'14 run a few times (US version) and they seem to compare well enough in hard mode. The only really obvious difference is that US gives you 2 lives instead of 3.

Other things: At both fights of the ghost miniboss there's an additional platform in the US version that allows you to stab him from above. The mud in the first level seems to be more damaging in the US version. I'm sure there's more things I haven't noticed.

I wouldn't mind a little extra difficulty to be honest, as I'm still developing my skills.

Somebody mentioned earlier that the PAL version is the easiest of the bunch, can't comment on that.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Somebody mentioned earlier that the PAL version is the easiest of the bunch, can't comment on that.

The game defaults to Easy Mode, which is now called Normal. I don't recall any obvious differences between Expert mode and SFC Hard mode.

[Perikles]

The only really obvious difference is that US gives you 2 lives instead of 3.

On Hard, US Normal hands out three lives.

PAL Normal is not quite a disguised SFC Easy mode, but it results to something very similar. Unlike the Easy setting of the US version (which ends at the Tower of Babel as far as I know) you actually get to play through the entire game, you start each chapter with seven lives and five magic points (SFC version gives seven lives, but "only" three magic points on Easy), however. This makes the PAL normal mode the easiest way to see the end (but you only get to see the full sequence if you beat it on Expert or US Hard, whereas SFC Normal shows the entire ending). PAL Hard on the other hand is slightly harder than SFC Normal, but easier than US Normal. It's a mess, really.

The one PAL-exclusive change I like is the little sound that rings when you clear a stage and it racks up your score - it's almost inaudible in the NTSC versions, they fixed that in the PAL release.

[Squire Grooktook]

With the recent argument, I thought I'd delve into Rondo of Blood a bit. See if my friend Obscura's claim (he had mentioned this to me before on another forum) that the game's level design was just "rooms of enemies" was true or not.

While not having finished it or taken all the routes yet, I think I can say pretty decisively that it's not. I went in expecting Symphony of the Night style rectangular halls filled with 3 tanky enemies in a row, but level design has basically the same balance of platforming vs combat that 1 and 3 did on the Nes. It's not quite as deviously brilliant as Akumajo Dracula x68, but it's solid enough.

What I do really love is the more elaborate normal enemy patterns. I don't think the rest of the series had normal common enemies with as frequently wide or varied move sets. Lots of footsies in here.

I think it lacks the challenge of CV x68, or the super aggressive playstyle of Bloodlines (rapid fire pummeling enemies and combo'ing sub weapons isn't nearly as rewarding here imo), but it seems like pretty good fun.

Dracula X SNES is good for me, it has a most epic Dracula battle in the series

The first form takes so looooooongg though. I definitely prefer CV1's rng hell Dracula fight, or the more intense version of his second form in Akumajo Dracula x68.

[BIL]

With the recent argument, I thought I'd delve into Rondo of Blood a bit. See if my friend Obscura's claim (he had mentioned this to me before on another forum) that the game's level design was just "rooms of enemies" was true or not.

While not having finished it or taken all the routes yet, I think I can say pretty decisively that it's not. I went in expecting Symphony of the Night style rectangular halls filled with 3 tanky enemies in a row, but level design has basically the same balance of platforming vs combat that 1 and 3 did on the Nes. It's not quite as deviously brilliant as Akumajo Dracula x68, but it's solid enough.

I'd assumed he was just funnin with that. Rondo's platforming content is easily on par with the rest of the traditional series, to say nothing of its downsize XX. It also has lots of combat, true nonlinear pathfinding, more stages, many more enemies and bosses, a wildly unique second character, Cross A Fear and more unskippable cutscenes!

There's a misconception that Rondo's heaving content must've barged out the straight-up platforming, and barebones XX compensated appropriately. But no.

I know you can skip Rondo cutscenes after seeing them once and saving, HATERZ. That still sucks. >:[

What I do really love is the more elaborate normal enemy patterns. I don't think the rest of the series had normal common enemies with as frequently wide or varied move sets. Lots of footsies in here.

Rondo definitely has the best head-to-head combat of the traditional series. Perfectly integrated evasion VS punishingly reactive enemy AI is superb risky footsie fun. Grave Masters, Pikemen, Sword Masters, Axe Armors and their rarer Red Berserker kin, Armour Lords, those morningstar giants and their fleaman air support... also bosses like Werewolf, Minotaur, Dullahan, Death, Shaft and Creature. I frickin looove the latter's rushing grab, telegraphed for a split-second. So much cool stuff to go toe to toe with.

XX has pretty strong combat too, despite the smaller roster of foes. Dullahan got ruined, but at least wolfy and Minotaur were unmolested (albeit BAD END ONRY) and I actually prefer Death's tighter arena, a perfect climax to the clock tower's rigorous trial.

The first form takes so looooooongg though. I definitely prefer CV1's rng hell Dracula fight, or the more intense version of his second form in Akumajo Dracula x68.

XX's revamped (BAAAHAHAHA) Dracula battle got it half-right. Rondo's Dracula is the game's single largest flaw, both a letdown compared to several earlier bosses and a glitzy knockoff of the original's savage, body-smashing encounter.

XX's is more interesting and more annoying. The musical chairs addition to RNG teleporting is a good idea, but should've been confined to a single screen for maximum intensity. Maybe with a few environmental hazards to keep ahead of. Dracula Densetsu I & II (GB) did this pretty well, several years earlier.

[Obscura]

Maybe it's just because I haven't played Rondo in years, but I've always remembered its level design as being "a bunch of hallways with enemies", with the only exceptions being the docks with the skeleton morningstar guys and the underwhelming clocktower. Sure, some of the enemy behavior is cool, but I always think of it as areas like the ship (once you're past the docks), or going up the stairs in one of the stage 3 variations, where like most Iga Castlevanias, the levels are nothing more than big hallways to fight the enemies in with the environment doing nothing interesting to add to it.

(Also, the alternate exit out of the alternate stage 2 which requires jumping down a random pit because "lol there's a ferryman under this one" is one of the absolute worst secrets ever in a platformer.)

(And how can you praise the Shaft boss fight while saying the Camilla fight from XX sucks? THE TWO BOSSES HAVE INCREDIBLY SIMILAR BEHAVIOR, except you fight the XX one on a smaller platform with drops on the edges. XX wins again.)

[BIL]

Nah, Rondo has about as much platforming as any other traditional Dracula. st3 doesn't have much, but it's not like the other games don't ease back on the pits occasionally. See Dracula I st5, or Dracula III st... whatever Mad Forest pt2 is, I can't recall its stage numbering offhand. And what platforming Rondo st3 does have will alter your course if screwed up, so it's not without tension. XX tried to mimic this, in its own depressing way.

I play this series back to back all the time. I should probably move on and master more new stuff but fuck, I'm lazy and it's comfy. Lethal combination. Like I said, I like XX but it's undeniably a bit of a mess and not where to start with this series. IV's not the best introduction either. I MEAN WHAT I SAY BRO ;3 ;3 ;3

related: I didn't say XX's Carmilla sucks! I said it's a bad hack of Rondo's, and it is! Dumping the charming first phase (with Dracula II reference!) and bunging in Shaft patterns for a boring, easy fight? Why settle for a hackj- wait, what am I saying. That's Dracula XX in the cart slot. XX Death is a good Rondo hack, let's go for that instead. Not like there's a choice unless you want a bad ending.

OTOH, I find Shaft's aggressive patterns pretty nice to counter when he's the fifth in line at the end of the rather unforgiving boss rush (which of course I clear on a single life). Feels good just killing that fuck too. The only way you'll see XX Carmilla is if you've made a dog's dinner of earlier challenges and earned yourself a lame boss for your storming clock tower assault. OH GOD XX WHY.

Rondo st2' bridge drop is daft but eh. I can take a bit of abuse from otherwise stellar games (including several others in this series). It's telegraphed pretty obviously too, instantly knocking it out of the running for Absolute Worst Platformer Secret Evar. As soon as I noticed there was inaccessible ground across the water I wanted to try falling through from above, as I did to reach the stage in the first place (st1 alternate path). Got dunked a couple times before finding a safe spot, but whatever. Preferable to being branded a bumbling asshole and getting permabanned from the other half of the game, I think.

There's no ferryman btw, he's later on in st4'.

[Squire Grooktook]

Maybe it's just because I haven't played Rondo in years, but I've always remembered its level design as being "a bunch of hallways with enemies", with the only exceptions being the docks with the skeleton morningstar guys and the underwhelming clocktower. Sure, some of the enemy behavior is cool, but I always think of it as areas like the ship (once you're past the docks), or going up the stairs in one of the stage 3 variations, where like most Iga Castlevanias, the levels are nothing more than big hallways to fight the enemies in with the environment doing nothing interesting to add to it.

Well, to prove the point, here's a few random portions that caught my eye:

Spoiler

Really, no shortage of environmental hazards and platforming mixed in with combat. It's definitely not as tight as x68, but I think it's easily on par with CV1 and 3.

Occasionally there are a few straight, even patches of terrain to fight a few tankier enemies on, but these are necessitated by the more in depth footsies games that these enemies move set and mobility create. But I don't detect any over-reliance on such set ups, mostly the levels do a very solid job of mixing things up.

I think you're just a bit biased by the Iga association. As I mentioned in the other thread, Iga really didn't have a great deal to do with the Metroidvania's and is more of a Keiji Inafune style spokesman than an actual designer, director, or programmer. I don't really see any of the negative traits in the Metroidvania's in Rondo, and likely the only reason the Metroidvania's share such similar "level" layouts is not because of Iga's minor influence but because they went with basically the same engine throughout all the games.

[Ed Oscuro]

Occasionally there are a few straight, even patches of terrain to fight a few tankier enemies on,

Yeah, the heavy purple armors from that stage Op 13 plays on. Rather boring. XX has some near equivalents that are gummed up by strange obstacles and similar, though. Overall, Rondo is definitely on the easy side.

I think you're just a bit biased by the Iga association. As I mentioned in the other thread, Iga really didn't have a great deal to do with the Metroidvania's

Well, it's Rondo that he's just in the thank you section for, and it's not clear what he did (the joke says he brought coffee but this is certainly not based on fact). However it always was pretty clear that his role as producer on the Metroidvania titles meant that he was involved in great detail in planning the games...I'm not aware of any evidence otherwise. Certainly he was doing something to be heralded as the series head (sometimes de facto, sometimes with more explicit recognition, mainly after KCEK faded from the scene) for those years from the PlayStation to the DS.

[BIL]

Oof, Christ. I take back what I said about XX Minotaur. Why is he hopping all over the room? Jumpy-ass muhfucka.

I found a yellowed old typewritten copy of DOCTOR BIRUFORDSHIRE'S DOKI-DOKI IMPORT GAMING REPORT behind the couch! I think the rascally old fucker wrote it circa 2004 before he discovered recreational drug abuse and gave up the videogame lark. I thought I'd share it for clarity. It reads:

XX isn't some misunderstood gem. It's not an unplayable travesty either. It is a Rondo downsize of inconsistent quality. It has a handful of stages (5', 6 and 7) excellent enough to make it worth playing, an assortment of astonishingly bad design decisions to chortle over with fellow Akumajou Dracula enthusiasts on corporate retreats, and a whole lot of undistinguished Rondo reconstitute to make up the rest. I would sooner rub my cockerel with the PCB's solder side before calling it as good as the proper traditional games, but on balance it is a not inoffensive piece in my collection.

Well I think that settles that. What do you fellows think of COCORON? I already bought the fucker. I'll be tellin y'all what I think soon enough! Probably BAWWWING that it's not great! Actually no, it's looking quite promising so far.

[Austin]

I have an urge to write some elaborate essay on why I think XX is a monotonous mess compared to other games in the series, but even thinking about it makes me want to be unproductive and play Bloodlines, Super CV, or Rondo instead, if only to purge the thought of XX from my mind in that very moment.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Thanks for the Castlevania recommendations earlier. I've started playing Rondo of Blood and I'm definitely loving it - absolutely godlike aesthetics (I've always loved the art design of the original Castlevania so I'm not surprised there) and consistently interesting bosses so far. At first I was a little concerned about the difficulty but it seems to ramp up well enough once you get to the pirate ship stage. And the backflip is just a fantastically brilliant move; I kind of feel like it makes the game.

On a more positive note, I am loving Metal Storm. Getting to the point where a 1CC seems vaguely possible. In case anyone likes this game but hasn't tried the JP release, DO SO---and get yourself to stage 6, where the newly-introduced, ever-present laser beams make things so much more harrowing (in addition to beefed-up platform design). Picture this: A platform-jumping level where the platforms are constantly rising, and loop around from the bottom, but the upper and lower edges of the screen are deadly. To escape one needs not only to walk/jump briskly forward, but also to reverse gravity on many occasions and follow the platform undersides (with enemy harassment all the while).

While all the main stages feature intelligent double use of space, this one really keeps the fire burning under you. I suppose it's not so hard after enough practice, but I'm guessing the second loop will remedy that. Anyway, such a winning level format that it deserves to appear in more games, brazen copying or no.

Yeah, Metal Storm is an absolutely fantastic game. I've never played the Japanese version though; maybe someday. I have to admit I have a lot of fun bouncing around in the toned down US stage 6, though. I have to recommend trying out the second loop - it totally reworks the game, and is equally impressive and devious. I liked the game a lot at first but it was the second loop that made it one of my favorite NES games.

[BIL]

Metal Storm's second loop is one of the greatest ever. It's like they designed a theoretical arcade release, then chucked it in as a bonus.

Cocked up my ONE SHOT AT THE TITLE in XX this morning so before resetting, I decided to muck around with my ol' pal AXEMAN REDDO.

ENEBEHBADDEH WAS KONG-FOO FIGH-TEEING:

Spoiler

Anyone remember if Rondo's axe knights share this exploit/mechanic? Can't recall. Hell, I can't recall if I knew about it in XX already. >_> It's pretty fun. I really like games that make full use of contact hurtbox disabling, like FC Batman and Actraiser II. Makes punching right through enemies a viable, stylish and satisfying alternative to conventional evasion.

[Austin]

Anyone remember if Rondo's axe knights share this exploit/mechanic? Can't recall. Hell, I can't recall if I knew about it in XX already. >_> It's pretty fun. I really like games that make full use of contact hurtbox disabling, like FC Batman and Actraiser II. Makes punching right through enemies a viable, stylish and satisfying alternative to conventional evasion.

Haha, I didn't even know that was possible. I always just backflipped over those assholes. I guess XX gets kudos for interesting close combat exploits after all.

[Squire Grooktook]

@Sir Ilpalazzo

Make sure you also play x68 Dracula as well! Game is a magnum opus.

[Ghegs]

Good timing that the thread has turned towards Castlevania when I've finally gotten around to tackling the first Famicom game in the series, the cart version. I've actually never beaten any of the non-IGAvanias, so this should be interesting. Made it to Death and managed to stand in exactly the right spot for a spawning scythe to kill me.

[BIL]

Haha, I didn't even know that was possible. I always just backflipped over those assholes. I guess XX gets kudos for interesting close combat exploits after all.

Just checked. Well, the hurtbox-disabling effect is in Rondo too, but it doesn't last long enough for the knight's dash to clear your sprite. Fortunately hopping over is a snap - even a neutral jump.

It's a good job XX extended the effect, because the collision on jumping (not backflipping) over a charging red is much stricter! It's actually easier to stay grounded and whip 'em. LOL.

As always with XX, I'd love to get some detailed developer commentary on these engine differences.

Also, good god damn does Rondo handle nicer than XX. Like shedding a weighted full-body training outfit. I'm pretty sure XX actually is a training tool, or at least some kind of mild torture device that makes all your other sidescrollers feel euphoric.

[Ed Oscuro]

i-frames are the Cthulhu Mythos of sidescrollers to hear most people talk about it. Good to see that it's actually something understandable. Actually this opens up a whole new world! But a shame it's still XX.

Credit where credit's due, though; probably the wide variety of other games just lets you abuse floaty jumps to clear everything with no problem, and this is pretty refined.

It does look slightly goofy, but I'm starting to wonder if these changes aren't deliberate. Probably the idea was to respond to criticism that Rondo was too easy and not technical enough, if I could hazard a guess.

[Squire Grooktook]

To be honest, I don't think Rondo is that easy. Bloodlines, Cv4, etc. aren't much harder a 1cc/1lc if at all. Even CV1 really isn't that difficult outside of the last stage if you know about Holy Water's effects on 2 of the hardest boss fights.

[Ed Oscuro]

Having watched Schlauchi's World of Longplays no-damage run, it looks well within the reach of mortals to get through stages without any trouble. Even if you're not playing splendidly, it should be possible to skip lots of stuff. I definitely like a lot of the innovations in Rondo, but the item crashes tend to be just a panic button thing, and the cool desperation moves from bosses are all easily avoided, and many are also pretty clearly telegraphed too. There are some potentially tough bits, but it's kind of telling that even the humpers are now early game enemies that are very easy to catch on the bounce. Ditto for bone-tossing skeletons, still one of my favorite enemies.

Metroidvanias really padded out the lifetime of the PC Engine era sprites, but some of them (flail guy, Dankey Kang) are simply not interesting additions to the series. Bloodlines' look isn't always as polished but I admire the increased feeling of liveliness in many enemies (the clockwork ones are great examples of this).

Still a lovely game and does a lot of things that few other platformers ever attempted. Dracula XX is starting to look more and more like an attempt to correct this, but unfortunately I think the pendulum swung too far in the other direction and loses sight of the things that make the original fun, even though it tries to emulate them with varying amounts of success. How many platformers have hidden stages? I guess it's a matter of DXX looking bad in comparison to the heights the series achieved. In comparison to the average NES platformer, though, it feels much better.

[Squire Grooktook]

Having watched Schlauchi's World of Longplays no-damage run, it looks well within the reach of mortals to get through stages without any trouble. Even if you're not playing splendidly, it should be possible to skip lots of stuff. I definitely like a lot of the innovations in Rondo, but the item crashes tend to be just a panic button thing, and the cool desperation moves from bosses are all easily avoided, and many are also pretty clearly telegraphed too. There are some potentially tough bits, but it's kind of telling that even the humpers are now early game enemies that are very easy to catch on the bounce. Ditto for bone-tossing skeletons, still one of my favorite enemies.

My point is though, same could be said about the difficulty of Bloodlines and almost CV1 (outside of one stage/boss, 3 if Holy Water is excluded). It's definitely not the raw arcade difficulty of x68, but as with Bloodlines difficulty, it's not enough to make the game unengaging imo. I'd factor it in with Contra 1 and many other "consolized" arcade-style action games in terms of "not terribly hard but still fun and engaging".

[BIL]

I wouldn't call Rondo's axe armour hop floaty, really - it's still a reasonably tight maneuver. You can backflip over just as easily in XX - if I were being charitable I'd say that was the intent, but it's XX so I can't tell. ;3

Having one-lifed both on all routes, I actually find Rondo more consistently challenging than XX. Neither's that hard compared to monsters like Holy Diver, but Rondo does have its meaner passages (most notably the boss rush), and the damage scale makes its generally longer, more complex stages deceptively punishing.

XX is difficult to simply keep on course with its screwy recovery window and heavier handling. Most of the danger isn't in calculated stage or boss design, it's in getting juggled to a pulp by a random bat. There are glimpses of genuine excellence later in the GOOD END route (clock tower 3:16) but I wouldn't call it a particularly strong example of this series' challenge.

(if that is indeed what it was going for. what a weird game.)

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

@Sir Ilpalazzo

Make sure you also play x68 Dracula as well! Game is a magnum opus.

That's the next one I intend to get for sure, I think I mentioned that in that post. It looks really fantastic. The only thing I'm a little concerned over is that the inherent input lag in PS1 classics bought through PSN might be annoying. My plan for the series is pretty much just to dig into Bloodlines, Chronicles / x68k, and 3 (which I'm not quite as excited for as the others but I'm sure it's really good as well). I guess I might play 2 for laughs as well.

I beat Rondo earlier. It's absolutely a great game, no doubt, but I was a little disappointed by the difficulty; when I beat the game I ended up 2ccing it (and I beat Dracula on the life I got to him lol. Far cry from the struggle of CV1 Dracula, who is a fantastic endboss). Still going for 100% completion though, and it feels like the lower route is a bit tougher. I suppose the scope of the game kind of makes up for it though. I also have to say that Maria is hilarious to mess around with, even if she is totally easy mode. Actually I think she's a way more interesting way to implement an easy mode than just giving the player an option that tones down the stages or enemies or whatever, even if she's more high-effort (on the designers' part) than something like that. I'd like to have seen that in more games (or maybe I'm just not aware of the right games).

[Volteccer_Jack]

Re: XX, the bats were the best part of the game. Every time I really got 'into' it was at a section full of bats or gorgon heads, I even got a great deal of use out of the moonwalk. Whenever it throws things with more health at you, like those awful spear soldiers, I just wanna shut the game off.

[Ed Oscuro]

Re: XX, the bats were the best part of the game. Every time I really got 'into' it was at a section full of bats or gorgon heads, I even got a great deal of use out of the moonwalk. Whenever it throws things with more health at you, like those awful spear soldiers, I just wanna shut the game off.

Yeah, I have to agree. The skeletons aren't too bad either.

Of course the Mermen (in the secret level at least) come into the realm of the annoying, for me, since their spawning almost seems like it's scripted "gotcha" moments. But at least that fits the mold of being tricky, rather than repetitive.

The spearmen aren't so bad in the original game, usually, but here they tend to throw two of them at you at the same time, on different levels, and with the geometry additionally screwing with you (or them). The big tank-style enemies weren't so hot in the original game, either, I felt.

[BIL]

The best bit of XX is in fact flying up the st4' mineshaft with the key's unstoppable item crash, simultaneously grabbing the rosary to make the screenload of ghosts explode simultaneously.

Speaking of, oh WAO. Newly received copies of Cocoron, Marvel Land and SFC Sparkster sit unplayed on my desk, along with the intriguing little FC topdown ARPG Grand Master, but the fuck do I know cos I can't stop playing Rondo and XX. New XX bugs and weirdness just keep poppin' up! The sig don't lie chaps. As noted previously I ENJOY THE ENIGMATICALLY SHODDY SHADOW OF ITS FORMER SELF THAT IS AKUMAJOU DRACULA XX.

(also, Death's surprise backstep into buzzsaw is amazing )

So, the water race in st5'. I thought I'd break my no-bunnyhop vow and speed things up a bit by tactically backflipping down the first and third levels. This is especially efficient since you'll reach the first bone dragon with a Potion in effect, instantly killing it. BUT THEN, the red skeleton up top was an invincible ledge guarder, and I was FUCT!

Turns out if you fell a red skeleton with the Potion's aura, they'll become completely impervious to attack upon regenerating. If this particular one gets within a knockback of the platform edge, you're screwed (and you'll have to tank straight through it thanks to the spiked ceiling, so you might be screwed regardless).

Spoiler

XX wins again!