Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Squire Grooktook]

Looking forward to seeing Yashka in action! That silhouette is sexy~

[BIL]

The Ninja Warriors Once Again trailer. Co-op is a thing now.

Two new characters - Yaksha ("technical") and Raiden ("heavy"). Absolutely cannot wait to see Raiden in action.

TNWOA it is then. TNWOAHHH MAH DICK Look at the fuckin mob of goons awaiting a facefull of flying glass in the st1 intro now. That's fear!

Jesus Fuck @ Raiden :O

Cooperative in the bag. TBH if this were just a straight SFC port with it added I'd be happy as a clam. I still can't believe this is even happening but now I'm extra astounded.

Still hoping for a Kamaitachi tweak. He's ostensibly the tricky character on SFC with his sneaky crouch run, dastardly overhead and brutal cunt punt, but the unfortunate lack of balance on his crouch P and super combo turns him into more of an EZMODE buzzsaw. Would be cool to see that revised. Then again maybe something else will change things.

[Steamflogger Boss]

That's a day 1 buy for me if it sees a physical release. Otherwise I'd probably wait for a sale. Looks great.

[Obscura]

Aww man, it's Switch only?

(TWNA is a game I've been meaning to get to, and holy hell those backgrounds and sprites in Once Again look amazing. Too bad I'll never get to play Once Again.)

[Vludi]

Looks great , too bad it's a Switch exclusive.

[Despatche]

Amusingly, this gives Once Again a play area closer to the original game. It's not Dariusburst AC, but it's good enough.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

I can't imagine that the game won't hit PC like Wild Guns Reloaded eventually did.

Incidentally, the game's overseas title is confirmed as "The Ninja Saviors Once Again" lol.

[Durandal]

Spoiler

One thing in the Ninja Warriors AC version I still held over Again were the detailed and atmospheric backgrounds, but it looks like OA will deliver massively on that front


Kunoichi's power reactors have seen a hefty upgrade...

Now that's detail. Ninja's clothes can barely even contain him.



YOU'RE HUGE, THAT MEANS YOU HAVE HUGE GUTS! GRAB AND THROW YOUR GUTS!


Is that a lolibot I smell?

HOW IS THIS GUY TWICE THE SIZE OF NINJA? HOW ON EARTH WILL THAT WORK?

I'm seriously considering buying a Switch just to be able to play TNWAA (screw you, The Ninja Warriors Again... Again! would still be a cooler subtitle) if a port to PC isn't announced or Switch emulation isn't decently accurate by the time it's released

[BIL]

Oh wow, Kunoichi has grown up like the totally real super secret ending where our antiheroes steal a van and retire peacefully from the assassination game was totally canon.

tbh I still like the conservative SFC designs, but I like the absolutely zero fucks given super sexy / SUPER MACHO ethos of Taniguchi's newer art even more. Now Ninja truly looks like a dangerously uncontrollable beast set loose as a last resort. He looks like he's gonna rip a motherfucker's head off. I like how his new giant swing is single-arm, the sense of brutal manhandling power is beyond even the SFC's.

HOW IS THIS GUY TWICE THE SIZE OF NINJA? HOW ON EARTH WILL THAT WORK?

Haha, the suspense is great isn't it? These are the same guys who designed Ninja's inimitably gratifying momentum game, so I'm sure they'll come up with something compelling. Ninja's giant swing and super combo might not have quite the reach they did on SFC... maybe Raiden will be the new pick for throwing chumps clean across the screen and blowing away crowds en masse.

As with the game in general though, I'm sure it'll be good fun at the least. This was a day one buy for me since it was announced.

(screw you, The Ninja Warriors Again... Again! would still be a cooler subtitle) if a port to PC isn't announced or Switch emulation isn't decently accurate by the time it's released

On the plus side this leaves the door open for TNWAAAAA (Again And Again And Again)!

[Steamflogger Boss]

I'm seriously considering buying a Switch just to be able to play TNWAA (screw you, The Ninja Warriors Again... Again! would still be a cooler subtitle) if a port to PC isn't announced or Switch emulation isn't decently accurate by the time it's released

As a bad ass side bonus you would get access to Mario Odyssey. Octopath Traveler is pretty awesome too if you like oldschool JRPGs.

[soprano1]

Now that's dedication! This HD remix looks more than promising now.

[Obscura]

Does anyone have experience with Konami's "Monster in my Pocket" for NES? It's one of those licensed titles that they never bothered giving a Famicom release, which doesn't bode well, but I've seen some love for it here and there, and it's been on my radar for a while. Music is definitely neat.
Konami did make a lot of excellent NES games that rarely gets mentioned (Tiny Toon Adventures), but I figured there's a good chance this one is more of a Bayou Billy....
It's not an expensive game, but it's also not cheap enough for me to just purchase blindly.

I was looking for a particular old post, and saw this, and have experience with the game --

It's pretty fun! Dead easy, which will be a put-off to some people, and one of the bosses takes an obnoxiously long time to kill (seriously, Kraken sucks), but well-built and really charming. The double-jump is one of the better feeling implementations of that mechanic I've played. Overall, I'd say give it a shot if you're at all interested.

EDIT: Fun fact, this game was the game that introduced me to the idea of misdirecting an enemy's attack proactively instead of just reacting to it! (I used it to get the final boss to shoot his projectiles off the screen entirely instead of letting them hit the floor where they cause lots of problems).

[Obscura]

So, giving TNWA a try, and I've got no prior experience with brawlers, and thus have no clue what I should be trying to do. What on earth are the basics here? It seems that throws are really good and I should be doing that whenever possible, using just basic attacks to close the distance for the most part? Do the mash combos serve any real purpose? Are jump attacks as suicidal as they seem? A lot of the time, I try one and just get hit in return.

I've read that Kunoichi has a "pummel" attack on down + Y after grab, but whenever I try it, she just does one hit and lets them go, even if I repeatedly tap Y? Not sure WTF is going on here.

[BIL]

TNWA is seriously too rich a brawler to sum up without going a bit over-length, so consider this a slightly wallish primer. In a sentence, there's very little flab with regards to Ninja and Kunoichi's movesets. Most everything has some use, particularly with the game's notable range of player/enemy matchups. Make sure you're playing the Japanese version, the US deletes Katanas (because buns, waaa) and pastes in tons of Claws to compensate. It's still a very good game but the balance and variety is diminished.

So, giving TNWA a try, and I've got no prior experience with brawlers, and thus have no clue what I should be trying to do. What on earth are the basics here?

This is actually a really useful startup guide, I've found. I'm not too proud of my Ninja 1CC (was way too early to record one), but the first stage went okay, and it should give you an idea of how the character looks in competent hands. EDIT 2019: Much better Ninja 1CCs here and here, plus Kunoichi!

Otherwise there's a fair bit to cover. First thing to note is that Kunoichi and Ninja play absolutely nothing alike, down to the latter lacking a conventional jump. You could become expert in one and still be largely clueless about the other. Kamaitachi is somewhat nearer Kunoichi but again is loaded with idiosyncrasies. Despite being an EZMODE character there's a lot to mess around with there too. I never use him so I won't talk about him much.

There are a few system commonalities though, relating to strikes and grapples:

Strikes use something akin to Final Fight's combo system. Land a couple punches with Ninja and the third hit will be his nunchaku. Land four slashes with Kunoichi and you'll get the katana on the fifth. Crouch on the combo ender for a variant. Hold [up] while you've got a full meter for a super combo finish. The timing of these strikes and finishers is generously loose ; it's entirely possible (and advisable) to deliberately smack a couple zako to rev up the finish, then turn around and nail a more dangerous target. Mixing up standing/crouching is no problem either, you can land four safe crouch slashes as Kunoichi then stand and bust out her super combo as required. This'll become evident with a bit of experimentation.

Grapples are [neutral] [up] and [down] plus attack. Mess around, they tend to have very different properties. Kunoichi's hair [up] looks daft but it's actually a deadly time-delayed guillotine. Launch an enemy, retreat, and anyone on your tail is getting flattened. Or advance, using it to crush would-be stonewallers. On single targets, you've just set them up for a wakeup butchering (don't try this on bosses, their wakeup iframes are brutal).

It seems that throws are really good and I should be doing that whenever possible, using just basic attacks to close the distance for the most part?

There's no one size fits all solution here, it really depends on the enemy and which character you're using. Ninja's giant swing [up+ATK] can be a godsend VS crowds, but it does relatively little damage. Atomic Drop [dwn+ATK] has no crowd control but is the game's second deadliest move, and can be busted out at rapid rate (see my st2 boss GIF a few posts back). Kunoichi's flurry [down+ATK, hold the button] is the game's strongest attack if completed, but it's incredibly unsafe. Hair as said is a guillotine. Neutral does little damage but it mows through crowds and can provide a quick escape or reset.

There's also the key matter of strikes, which can not only tag on a bunch of damage pre-grapple, but also have very useful properties in their own rights...

Do the mash combos serve any real purpose?

Oh fuck yes. Invaluable range boosters, among other things! Nunchaku is a safe bi-directional knockdown with crazy i-frames. Rocket punch mows down crowds wholesale. Kunoichi's can offset her critical flaw, her lack of reach. Slash up some zako and hit something worse with the end of the katana. Super katana eats crowds and also puts you in the game's strongest position, standing over a recovering enemy (again, bad idea VS bosses, but invaluable when you need a hardcase assassinated). Super combos also punch straight through blocking/strike-proof enemies, who can be a real nuisance in this game.

Are jump attacks as suicidal as they seem? A lot of the time, I try one and just get hit in return.

No, if you get the knack of apexing and timing them properly, they can easily land a ton of damage for Kunoichi. Jumpkick + 4x kunai + flurry will severely fuck up the heaviest enemies and even take a chunk out of bosses.

Air combo [away during kick] does minimal damage but is incredibly useful for scoring a quick knockdown, then rebounding and landing a combo starter on the now backup-less target. Or for just staying airborne a while until things settle down. And it's just a fun move to mess around with:

Spoiler

Ninja can't jump at all. Instead he has a suite of rocket boost attacks which practically deserve a post in their own right. Shoulder ram [fwd+jump] is an excellent starter, it'll chain straight into strikes and/or a grapple. Attack during for a useful quick knockdown that's safe on block. Hover [neutral] looks useless at first, but its [up] variant is an incredibly useful anti-air (works great on Katanas), and [down] is a handy poke (invincible knockdown, safe on block).

I've read that Kunoichi has a "pummel" attack on down + Y after grab, but whenever I try it, she just does one hit and lets them go, even if I repeatedly tap Y? Not sure WTF is going on here.

As above, don't tap, just hold. Let go if something's going to interrupt you. IIRC the full sequence gets a massive damage boost (the last hit does the lion's share) so it's worth risking.

Last thing to note is guarding [hold attack] and the associated long jumps, which have their own uses, but this post's probably gone on long enough for now. See my replay's st1 boss for a textbook example of Ninja's tumble [forward blocking jump].

Edits: rust rust rust

[Jonny2x4]

I found out that Jaquio is called "Devildoer" in the hidden English setting of the infamous PCE Ninja Ryukenden.

Even his Japanese name is different. On the original Famicom game, he's 邪鬼王 (Jakiō), but in the PC Engine version he's 邪神王 (Jashin'ō). I always thought of "Jaquio" as a stylized choice rather than a mistranslation.

I was replaying the original Rastan on the crappy Taito Legends compilation for the PS2. Good game, but crappy compilation. Who thought that not having a key config option on a classic game compilation was a good idea? It wouldn't even be that much of an issue if it wasn't for the fact that X is assigned as the attack button, while circle and square are for jumping (when most games have it the other way around).

[copy-paster]

I just set my save state practice in Metal Slug 3, almost every tough section. Still can't survive consistenly during exploding one eyed alien section and Rootmars.

[Ghegs]

Very cool about TNWOA. Many pages ago I wished there were more Kung Fu -style games available, and now we get this.

[Zaarock]

Trying TNWA because of all the talk over the years. Rolled with Kunoichi at first and found it sorta fun. Then I picked Ninja and my mind was blown, this moveset and how it can roll through the stages is too good. Up to stage 3 boss for now..

Hoping TNWOA gets a PS4 version sometime. Wild Guns never clicked with me but I can imagine spending a lot of time on this one.

[Obscura]

BIL, when you mention "apexing" a jump attack, do you mean spacing it so it hits high and goes over most punch attacks, or spacing it so it hits low to maximize frame advantage KOF-style?

[BIL]

Trying TNWA because of all the talk over the years. Rolled with Kunoichi at first and found it sorta fun. Then I picked Ninja and my mind was blown, this moveset and how it can roll through the stages is too good. Up to stage 3 boss for now..

Exactly how it was for me. Then after getting the Ninja 1CC, returning to Kunoichi felt like getting an instant sequel!

BIL, when you mention "apexing" a jump attack, do you mean spacing it so it hits high and goes over most punch attacks, or spacing it so it hits low to maximize frame advantage KOF-style?

The former, roughly. Here's quick GIF (bit big, 7mb) illustrating the sweet spot for getting in and landing the kick, VS two of the game's nastier anti-airers: st1 boss and Pumas.

Spoiler

Rusty as fuck (at least one missed flurry opportunity) but you can see the principle. On the opener, I decline to hit him with the 4x Kunai because the Pumas at my back are deceptively quick, and the relatively puny damage isn't worth gambling the full flurry for. Better play could've probably managed it, but you can see by the gaps between grapple and execution that my timing's a bit off. Later I use outside kicks not to damage, but to keep them from advancing and pincering me. A few land cleanly, but at that range I'd get clocked if I tried to capitalise.

The dropped grapple and bomb is rust - that would've been better-served with a neutral driving him back to the wall, or even Hair to squash the Pumas. Hair's additional damage may've also pre-empted that last-gasp effort from them... but that's the beauty of this game's tactical yet roilingly RNG-informed brawls. Fight in forward, understand in reverse.

Finally, enemy Katana illustrates why this is no common brawler and Kunoichi's drawback is not a lack of power, but a lack of range. Then, like any considerate gentleman, I reciprocate by leaving her screaming face down ass-up. (check out the Hair Guillotine - enemies have no environmental hazard AI so it'll clobber 'em every time)

Similarly, Ninja's challenge isn't a lack of speed (his boosts have the highest acceleration and max speed in the game), but generating momentum without a conventional jump. See here for the same fight as him. Note my abusing his Pumas to generate Nunchaku and Rocket Punches - good help is hard to find! His blocks, too - the last one seals his doom. This sensibly loose, tactically-exploitable combo build is a critical mechanic, and a huge part of the game's overall feel.

Crummy yet illustrative GIF of same fight:

Spoiler

(ancient run, input file long since lost)

[Blinge]

My challenge is going well so far..

Spoiler

[Immryr]

uhhh wat? why is it night time and where is ryu?

[Blinge]

Dead. Dead as shit.

He's somewhere below screen

[Immryr]

surely that's not possible on level 2?

[Marc]

It is. Game kicked my ass. Managed as far as stage 4-something and realised I'd rather be sticking hot needles into my balls. Fun, but so tight and rigid that it isn't for me.

[kitten]

Now that's detail. Ninja's clothes can barely even contain him.

omg. i don't 100% know if i like how over-animated the new sprites are but that left hand grasp in the walk cycle is excellent at communicating pure murderous intent.

while i still find the original wild guns superior to the remake and have talked about that on here a bit, i did find it really good and pretty much completely in spirit with the original, which is a very rare praise from me when discussing a modern title. i will be picking up TNWOA instantly on it getting a physical copy, which i strongly believe it will receive (as wild guns reloaded did).

- - - - -

also, re: the additional kirby 64 talk - i have trouble respecting it even as a toybox because of how many powers are complete duds and how even the good ones are typically limited to a single move. while the copy ability amount is diverse, the power utility is significantly less than that of kirby super star (with its diverse movesets and dash attacks) and feels pointedly obsolete coming years after that.

frankly, it's even much worse off than even the MUCH earlier and formative kirby's adventure in power utility given that game's proclivity for areas deliberately designed around accommodating each new power in ideal and fun new ways. beyond the turgid slowness and low range of use of nearly every ability in k64, they're also heavily obscured by the difficulty the player goes through in attempting to memorize each or even actively recognize what is available to them and how useful it might be. it is really easy to forget which combinations do what and you're rarely encouraged to try a specific one in an area tailored for accentuating its strengths. many combinations are also so useless (occasionally strictly useful as a puzzle key) that they can be red herrings about the potential use of one of the ingredient abilities.

i respect toybox design a lot - i feel like it saved sotn from being merely aesthetically moving and am probably the biggest kirby fan on the forum - but they've gotta be good toys. my harshness on k64 is largely because it is not just 7 full years after kirby's adventure and 4 full years after kirby super star, but also shimomura's third kirby game. and it's one where he expresses learning precisely nothing and doubles down on his really seriously flawed pacing issues, useless abilities, and weird insistence on combo abilities (because let's face it, this is almost no different than each of the animal friends having unique ability changes, many of which were downgrades). there's not a single ability in k64 (as they perform in that game) i would prefer to robobot's least interesting one.

though it's admittedly a more compact and less arduous game than KDL3, i feel like this is hardly a point of celebration - especially so in a series with directors like sakurai and kumazaki, who are pretty competent with understanding and correcting their flaws as they grow. in a total vacuum, it's a very boring platformer with quality audio, occasionally delightful video, and memorable characters. in the context of its series - both in the history leading up to it to draw from and what came after - it feels almost completely worthless beyond elements probably better left expressed in a brief cartoon movie.

[Ed Oscuro]

I'm not sure I can disagree with your appraisal of the art being "over-animated," but have you had a look at Darkstalkers lately?

Considering he's a giant cyborg even his gi is probably massive enough to flap like that if he really was walking around. (Bet that shit is made of steel wire like a pot scrubber too.)

Okay, boring question time: I see at the official webpage that the price / format (?) is TBD, if my translation is accurate. Did anybody hear whether TNWOA is going purely digital for release?

If I'm being honest, the poorly-selling enough Wii U already has enough interesting quirky things on it to make that a must-have (before they get totally impossible to find), so going for the Switch seems like our eventual fate too.

[BIL]

uhhh wat? why is it night time and where is ryu?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09s-c2JVI40

It is. Game kicked my ass. Managed as far as stage 4-something and realised I'd rather be sticking hot needles into my balls. Fun, but so tight and rigid that it isn't for me.

You can't break those cuffs, but you can melt them. ;3

(with experience! NOT psychic hatred waves! those'll just give you a seizure!)

[Obscura]

He's somewhere below screen

Gotta time those smacks at ledge guarders better!

(Or, since this is 2-2, bring in the spin-slash from 2-1, and intentionally avoid the fire wheel on the second screen to not have to worry about it at all. That works too!)

[Vanguard]

Been playing a bit of AC Rainbow Islands. Seems really nice so far. There's something to be said for C2TKMF stage design. Traversing the level is engaging even with no enemies around. Falling won't kill you outright, but you'll lose time which you can't always afford to waste.

Your rainbows are really powerful. Fully upgraded they cover about half the screen's width and when dropped they can hit anything below them and even hit things a small distance above. Hitting above is especially powerful since you start at the bottom of each stage and about half the enemies in the game don't have a way to hurt you while you're beneath them. They also make very good shields. The only way enemies can realistically stand up against that is by being extremely aggressive, which they are once you hit the halfway point or so. Lots of fights begin and end in the blink of an eye.

I posted earlier about item manipulation in Bubble Bobble, and while the same conceptual system is in place in Rainbow Islands, it generally isn't as actionable as BB's version, and the many of the item spawns that are actionable are degenerate. You don't really want to waste 32 credits to make the extremely powerful star bubble appear and you don't really want to deliberately end a run on a certain round so the rainbow bracelet spawns at the right time on your next playthrough. It's not a bad system (so long as you don't abuse that ridiculous shit), it's just not as cool as the original.

I still think Rainbow Islands would be better off with something else in place of its diamond system, at least the part about collecting them in order. Collecting them out of order isn't bad at all. Make an effort to kill most enemies with dropped rainbows and it'll happen on its own. And thankfully, that's all you need to do to earn the best ending. Collecting them in order can really slow things down and I don't find it very enjoyable. It's a shame because the underlying concept of gaining new abilities for good performance in an arcade scoring-like system is great. Some of the rewards are pretty lame (one "reward" forces you into a bad ending, another unlocks the ability to credit feed in the last few islands) so there's no reason to worry about it, but others are very useful (permanent flight, permanent fairy, and a full screen-length attack that appears to be able to oneshot the final boss). Collecting them in order on bubble island gives you the option to complete the game without fighting the final boss. The ending even mentions that he wasn't killed - is Rainbow Islands the first game where you can optionally spare the villain and still win?

To be fair, the diamonds-in-order system does give you something to work on in easier levels and it does increase the difficulty by a fair bit. Since the time limit is a serious problem, it being slower is often more of a survival problem than a tedium problem. It seems like it's mostly meant as something for players to master after they can clear the game rather than something you master to assist in clearing the game.



TNWOA looks sick. Not a fan of Kunoichi's redesign though - her original lean look fit her moveset better and, more importantly, she lost her murderous glare. Ninja's redesign is cool. His original walk cycle conveyed unstoppable, unfeeling doom; his new one is still unstoppable doom, but now he seems enthusiastic about it. Co-op should give Kamitachi has a new purpose - now your noob friends can contribute! Raiden sounds like he's gonna be completely ridiculous.

Don't have time to watch the video now, but aside from the late-era emulation style ports, the best port is probably the Master System one, which is just super solid, and adds a bunch of extra stuff to the game. I've never tried the NES one, but I think it looks pretty crappy. I guess if you don't compare to the arcade version it's probably pretty good.
Haven't looked into the X68k version either, but I'm guessing it's close to arcade perfect? To my knowledge no port was actually arcade perfect until MAME cracked that propriety chip only like 10 or so years ago, though.

The NES port of Bubble Bobble is like Taito's Rainbow Islands NES port - it's not as good as the original, but it does enough things differently to be worthwhile. The biggest difference in NES BB is that there's a delay between when you fire a bubble and when it can be popped, which allows you to fire bubbles when right up against a wall or even when fully inside of a wall and use them to jump up higher. In the arcade version there's a few places you can get trapped and the only way out is to wait for skel monsta to kill you, but the NES port's more permissive physics allow you to escape from anything. I actually prefer the NES version's bubble physics over the original.

As for other changes, it adds another step to getting the good endings. You need to collect a crystal ball item on level 99 which will temporarily make a door appear. Touch the door and you'll go to the secret road, which is about a dozen extra levels followed by the usual boss fight against Super Drunk. The NES version adds a bunch of new levels, probably about 3/4 of the levels are from the arcade game and the rest are new. It still has super mode though the code is different. Shoeless Bubblun and Bobblun are noticeably slower than their arcade counterparts, which is lame. It's easier to kill enemies with the point blank kiss of death in the NES version. It doesn't have the secret silver doors from the original. If you use a continue then the level you have to start the current level over, so there's some challenge to a credit feeding clear.

Wow, thanks for sharing that, I never knew you could control the item spawns. Is it the same for the NES port, I wonder? I have really fond memories of playing Bubble Bobble with my Grandma back in the day. Going to give Rainbow Islands a serious go after reading the above, too.

The same principle is in place - try spamming bubbles everywhere and you'll see lots of green candies - but I don't know how much of it is exactly the same as the arcade version.

weird insistence on combo abilities (because let's face it, this is almost no different than each of the animal friends having unique ability changes, many of which were downgrades).

You and I both know the combination copy powers are much better than the godawful animal friends. They don't give you an extra unnecessary life bar, they don't mess up your basic walking controls, and it's much more convenient to switch out one combination copy power for another than to do the same with animals. I don't know about Kirby's Dream Land 3 (it bores me to tears), but the combination powers in Kirby 64 are also much more varied and interesting than the animal powers in Kirby's Dream Land 2.