Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Ghegs]

That only worked on the first two bosses for me? I did try the same "strategy" on both the count, the pirate and the rock monster, but it didn't work for either.

I'm pretty sure I used that for most of the bosses when I did my 1CCs of the game, though now I had a vague flashback that the rock monster might require an occasional dodge. It was still mostly bruteforcing it.

[Sumez]

Yeah you can't afford to tank the rock monster entirely, but as long as you're sensible and dodge the occasional rock shard you should be golden.

The count and the pirate captain are both monsters that will spam you to death if you try just standing in front of them though, and they have too mcuh health to lose in a "DPS race". It's okay though, I figured out simple patterns for all of them so far. For the pirate basically just keep double jumping over him and you should have time to get a single hit in every second jump. For the count I need to get far enough away from him to make him start flying which seems to be the only safe time to hit him.

Do you have a video of your 1CC? I'm curious about some other things, such as dodging a few of the random boulders in the mine stage.

[Ghegs]

Looks like I don't have any footage in my archives, sorry. I think I cleared the game a few times, trying for a 1LC, but then I got too annoyed by the DPS race bosses and/or distracted by some other game, and moved on.

[BIL]

I really like Moon Crystal's stage action - nails a balance of POP's gritty heft and Rastan's superheroic swashbuckling. Grueling ledge pullups and breezy doublejumps coexist remarkably well... nothing else in the FC action/platformer canon plays like it AFAIK. The knifeplay is likewise well-judged, emphasising the momentum-driven, short-ranged decisive blow; grimly satisfying getting in close and leaving a would-be killer crumpling to the floor.

The damage race-friendly bosses turned me off for years, at least the first seven or so I've seen, but I've gradually taken a less damning view. They don't ruin the excellence of the preceding stages any more than NG1's weak roster, and it's not that they can't be no-damaged with enough persistence. I don't mind figuring out how to avoid damage races on my own initiative, especially if the handling model is interesting.

(see Dynamite LULZman, old method, slow!)

Spoiler

Very cool game. Moon Crystal, not Lulzman! That one's just okay and I get mad at its blatantly missing STG stage bosses every time!

I have no idea how you guys record GIFs of your games, and I never play on emulators anyway, so I stole these from the internet:

Instagiffer for me. Works a charm with emulator-written and hardware-captured video alike. On that subject, although I most definitely intend to return to hardware in the near future (too lazy/stingy/paranoid to lug/courier all my stuff from home, and I'm in tiny student quarters for at least another year anyway), I can see myself keeping my ROM folders just for the ease of capturing quick demo clips. How2Play FC Double Dragon and the likes. For the below, I woulda needed to play up to the end of Mission 2 then reset at least three fucken times! I ain't that selfless!

Chins and Abobos are lethal at range. Get pointblank and punch the fuck out of him with impunity. Or kick him, but P's easier to connect and you may as well enjoy the bonus XP. PPPPP's a snap, or PPPPK for variety (uppercut/roundhouse get same XP).

Spoiler

Now yes, his sweep and back kick are indeed brutal at range and can easily stuff you, but if you want a little excitement you can gamble on beating him with a boot of your own, which chains nicely into a grab.

Spoiler

But wait! If you've played very foolishly and ended up in some godawful predicament where you need a grab, but can't afford to gamble on a kick, you can get into safe range, boot him a couple times, then retreat - the grab will lock in as you enter range.

Spoiler

Or, or yeah, I could've just not thrown him off the building, I suppose. >_> But it look so cool! Respect 2 Technos' trademark Mirthful Ultra Violence™!

Speaking of quick demo clips! Thing what I learned 2day featuring Alien Soldier: I finally realised what those HP gems behind WolfGunBlood/GAROPA's barricades are for! Thought they were meant to spare new players a potential instant death, but actually, you can do this:

(MASSIVE STORYLINE SPOILERS)

Spoiler

Lack of pyro is disappointing but the game uses its best *WHAM* sound and the timing's fairly strict, so a bit more satisfying in practice. Fun little thing to shoot for if he goes for the barricades before you can put him down.

Still wish these guys were a Black Heart mkII-style "sentry at the gates of hell" ordeal to match their killer aesthetic. The components are quality, but they're too discrete to create pressure. I'd have high/mid/low fences rushing past with minimal telegraphing and erratic timing, as the attack continued unbroken... dash-dodgeable, to ensure no Catch-22s. Would also give them an auxiliary attack to shake up the MG tracking. It's excellently foreboding, but there's nothing else vying for your attention. Maybe a proximity-triggered sword or kick to complicate orbiting them, and the occasional interfering zako. Too much space here, both mental and physical. I'd not notice as much if this weren't Act IV. The vast majority of earlier bosses (that can't be instantly shredded at expert level) are far tighter-fought and/or better at forcing the player to multi-task.

Still, speedkill is rad at least. A disappointing boss can usually be redeemed if I at least have the option of uninstalling his face with a prompt, preferably technique-driven bitch slap.

[FinalBaton]

BIL, get a capture card and record from real hardware, you infidel

(thanks for the tip on Instagifer, I been using that since you mentionned it a couple months ago and I'm happy with it)

[BIL]

The Infidel would be a catchy chapter title. But yes, that is the plan for R2RKMFv3! Priority being captures of stuff I'm either unable or unsatisfied with emulating, basically Saturn and newer. I'd love to edit up some good old fashioned review videos too, complementing my listier/longer posts here. Preferably cut to the most screaming butt-rock and face-sanding KVLT. There is an insufferable mid-00s AMV kid clawing to escape my heart! This evening I burnt Shield Viper's motherfucking spine out with a perfectly-judged Phoenix just as Blackie Lawless yowled "Wings of freedom burn the line" and I got a fuckin chub.

Ah, plans. This is probably gonna end up like a nerdcore version of WASP's The Crimson Idol, except I'll commit suicide not by guitar string noose but by ineffectually scratching myself with a shattered Taromaru disc, before answering the door and being shot by the cops.

[FinalBaton]

^^^^^^

[BrianC]

The Infidel would be a catchy chapter title.

lol. I would love to see an Arabian themed game with enemies yelling "Infidels!" or "You Infidel!".

Lulzman! That one's just okay and I get mad at its blatantly missing STG stage bosses every time!

At least the GB Batman had shooting stage bosses.

[llaoyllakcuf]

The Infidel would be a catchy chapter title.

lol. I would love to see an Arabian themed game with enemies yelling "Infidels!" or "You Infidel!".

The plot of XZR (MSX & PC-88) gets fairly close to that:

https://goo.gl/msyDvU

https://goo.gl/XsU9tV

[BrianC]

The Infidel would be a catchy chapter title.

lol. I would love to see an Arabian themed game with enemies yelling "Infidels!" or "You Infidel!".

The plot of XZR (MSX & PC-88) gets fairly close to that:

https://goo.gl/msyDvU

https://goo.gl/XsU9tV

I was thinking more along the lines of Aladdin or those cheesy Hanna Barbera cartoons. XZR has the Arabian theme, but it also has wierdness like time travel and drug use in it. I wasn't thinking of a game about an Infidel.

edit: Doh. Misquoted a Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck cartoon. The Genie never saiid "Infidel" in that cartoon.

[BIL]

lol. I would love to see an Arabian themed game with enemies yelling "Infidels!" or "You Infidel!".

Coincidentally, on the subject of Moon Crystal and POP - Rusel DeMaria's official guide from back in the day is in narrative format... and by transposing the Prince's bloody, surreal, wordless ordeal to realistic context, an almost MGS1-like lament on death and war results. Unfortunately for our hero, he is no battle-hardened Snake - he is going fucking mental, as I'm sure most of us would between all the brutal pullups and even more brutal slayings. My favourite is when he lets peal this corker in chapter 8:

He was not the equal of the guard I had most recently vanquished and I defeated him easily by charging forward and thrusting before he could think. I ran by his corpse without another thought, imagining doing to Jaffar what I had been forced to do to his minions.

"Allah, O Great and Merciful!" I cried. "Forgive me if I have grown accustomed to death and destruction!" If I should survive this place, I knew I would have much to reflect upon.

Intense. I know, technically not Arabian, but near enough for this tangent methinks.

At least the GB Batman had shooting stage bosses.

Yeah! They're okay too! God, DB annoys me... the parallax is rushing, the BGM is thumping, it's just the right time for a behemoth deathmachine to scroll in - then nothing. Nada! I'd settle for just a midboss rush! HOLY BLUE BALLS, BATMAN. >_< This is where you fire up Battle Formula, now that is where Sunsoft delivered the multi-stage mechanical boss monstrosities.

Dynamite's main stages are like this too. Just like BF and Gimmick, the engine is down to kill like a motherfucker - if you deliberately herd them, you can have three massive enemies plus Batman onscreen without it breaking a sweat, ready for the almighty slide tackle to tear apart with Phoenix Force-like satisfaction. Assuming any survive the walloping charged C shot. Instead the game will meekly dole out one at a time, maybe one plus a ledge guarder. -_- WHY YOU DO IT TO ME SUNSOFT. This should've been a rollicking brawler/shooter. Instead it tries to be a precision Rockmanesque, and frequently gets into trouble cos the control and camera ain't calibrated for that. Behold my skills, cough. Doing that bit when it's been a while is like getting bopped on the nose with a goddamn newspaper. I'll bite you motherfucker!

Oh well. Normally I hate "what could've been" talk. It makes me ask myself "why don't you learn2ROMhack and do something about it?" And besides the obvious "im lazy rofl" response, I find the set in stone, no patches, no take-backs aspect of the era charming. Makes success all the sweeter. It's why I won't use Dracula Densetsu II's walk speed patch despite the game direly needing it. I wouldn't even patch Holy Diver. >_< But DB's a truly unique case of right tools, wrong design.

Still love having it though. >_> Latter-day Sunsoft FC tech too cute. Snappy credit, snappy case.

[Jonny2x4]

I was thinking more along the lines of Aladdin or those cheesy Hanna Barbera cartoons. XZR has the Arabian theme, but it also has wierdness like time travel and drug use in it. I wasn't thinking of a game about an Infidel.

I think there's a scene early in the first XZR where Sadler (the hero) gets called an infidel (the Japanese equivalent of one anyway) by the head of a Mosque in the very first village. It's been a while since I played the game though.

Oh well. Normally I hate "what could've been" talk. It makes me ask myself "why don't you learn2ROMhack and do something about it?" And besides the obvious "im lazy rofl" response, I find the set in stone, no patches, no take-backs aspect of the era charming. Makes success all the sweeter. It's why I won't use Dracula Densetsu II's walk speed patch despite the game direly needing it. I wouldn't even patch Holy Diver. >_< But DB's a truly unique case of right tools, wrong design.

There's one ROM patch for Shodai Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun that greatly improves the game's controls (by adding individual attack buttons instead of an all-purpose one) and fixing friendly fire to the point that I can't even look at the original version the same way.

[Sumez]

After a quick play of the All-Stars version, I've gotten back into SMB2j - hooked up my FDS drive and realised that my disk copy of the game never got up to 8 stars on the title screen (whoever owned it before me apparently never beat the game), so that was a great opportunity to train a run-through of the game using warps (totals 12 stages stages, so a longer ordeal than the original SMB).

I know I have said it before, but every time I start up this game I get filled with that sense of joy over the fact that this game exists. A genuinely hard Mario game, created with the single purpose of challenging players - the only official game in the series ever released with this purpose.

Also, playing it back to back with the SNES version, it becomes apparent just how many little changes were actually made to the game, aside from the minor alteration to the physics.
While most changes were done to make the game easier, I'm really bothered by stage 8-3 where the blocks hidden against the brick tiled backgrounds have been replaced with invisible blocks in the sections where hammer brothers start appearing, most likely due to the changes in the background graphics. Not only is it impossible to stand on the blocks before you've hit them from below for a strategic dodge, but it's also really difficult to discern exactly where they are, making them function like kaizo blocks as you try to do a big leap over the aggressive advancing hammer bros.

The game is as tough as its reputation, but with a little training you don't need the 1-1 1up exploit (easy setup to jump on a shell against a wall for infinite 1ups), as the game really does give you a ton of extra lives, especially if you try to set up your coin count for a free 1up on the flagpole. Once I'm done mastering World A through D again, I'll do a full run through of the World 1-8 game, aiming for the "World 9" victory lap! Even with warps and no exploit, I still managed to clear the game with a crown+number amount of lives.

[Jonny2x4]

I know I have said it before, but every time I start up this game I get filled with that sense of joy over the fact that this game exists. A genuinely hard Mario game, created with the single purpose of challenging players - the only official game in the series ever released with this purpose.

Have you played Vs. Super Mario Bros.? It's basically a hard mode mod of the original with new stages that were later recycled for Mario 2j. I recommend trying it out (especially since it's available on Switch via ACA).

[Sumez]

Yeah I've played it on the original Nintendo cabinet at my friend's place, but I think it's a bit of an abomination - Super Mario is near impossible to play with a joystick since you can never have the same moment to moment precision that you get from being able to tap the direction buttons. It's a game made for the D-pad. I would probably enjoy playing it on a Switch though.

[Sumez]

I don't know how I could possibly express any doubt about wether Don Doko Don 2 was created by Natsume. The soundtrack is such a dead giveaway. Check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzfbcWLgDwA
That stuff might as well be taken straight from Kage or Shatnerhand.



Aother Famicom game I've been holding out on for too long. It definitely places itself straight into "cute platformer" category, fitting well into the Taito fold. However, to my relief it's immensely better than their horribly mediocre Jetsons game. With its large sprites and big four-directional scrolling stages it feels a lot like a 16-bit game. Fortunately it's no complete walkover either. Not that it's super hard or anything, but it feels like a really solid game for the short hour or so I got to put into it today.

I'm surprised it hasn't gone into the super expensive collector's territory yet. Some times these trends are just impossible to figure out.

[BrianC]

Yeah I've played it on the original Nintendo cabinet at my friend's place, but I think it's a bit of an abomination - Super Mario is near impossible to play with a joystick since you can never have the same moment to moment precision that you get from being able to tap the direction buttons. It's a game made for the D-pad. I would probably enjoy playing it on a Switch though.

I had no problems with the tap movements with the stock and hori joysticks, but it can be played on an actual nes with dpad controllers thanks to a hack (the actual hardware is very similar to NES. The hack makes it so an NES controller can start the game, adjusts the colors for the NES palette, and makes the dip switch settings available from a menu). I found the direction buttons on the switch to more awkward than the joystick or d-pad due to the buttons being separate rather than connected like the dpad or joystick. The issue with pressing both left and right at the same time seems to have been fixed in an update for the Arcade Archives version, though. I didn't find the game to be an abomination at all and some of the levels reused in SMB2J are actually harder in Vs. SMB.

[Sumez]

Oh the game design itself is nice. It's just that SMB is really difficult to control using a joystick. There's a constant fine subconscious adjustment of Mario's velocity when you're playing with a D-pad that just isn't possible to recreate with a joystick. At least not without a ton of training and mental adjustment.

[Sumez]

I never understood belt scrolling beat'em ups. I can't beat them, and I never had fun playing any of them. I realise how popular and respected they are, so I really hope that one day I'll be able to "get it", but I just can't figure it out. What am I supposed to do?

Tried popping in Mighty Final Fight today, hoping that the barebones NES gameplay and graphics of the game would make the gameplay more immediately approachable to me, but I'm actually really impressed just how much this game completely feels like a 16-bit beat'em up, for better or worse.

As standard for the genre, it's incredibly repetitive. Just keep walking right while fighting copies of the same guy over and over. As far as I can tell, the best way to approach the game is to find a way to attack the enemies without giving them the chance to get close enough to you to get the first punch in, which as per genre standards seems to usually mean a jumping attack. Over and over again. Over and over. Occasionally I'll take damage, but I'm not really able to tell why. Some times even without the enemy pulling off a visible attack.
I'm completely unable to understand how I should approach the game. As far as I can tell, there's only so much I can do with my moveset which seems to be limited to aforementioned jumping attack and a basic punch-combo, as well as the special attack you do by pressing both buttons, but which eats your health when used to attack enemies.
So I seem to move back and forth between boring repetitive moves to cheese my way through without getting hit, or getting my ass kicked without any idea what I can do about it. Obviously I'm not playing the game the way I'm supposed to, it's just that I have no idea what else I can do.
And this describes pretty much all my experiences with the genre aside from Konami's series of licensed flashy arcade brawlers based on the TMNT engine, that are much more transparent to me, but similarly easy to cheese by abusing the depth plane to evade enemy attacks.

[Ghegs]

I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I want to like them, and I try them out every now and then, but I just can't get into them, largely for the same reasons.

Also my pet peeve: how am I supposed to feel like I'm playing as a bad-ass street fighter if it takes three roundhouse kicks, two throws, seven punches and an izuna drop to dispatch even the weakest enemy? Compare that to NES' Kung Fu where Thomas whoops zako enemy ass left and right with one kick or punch. Slightly different genre I suppose, but I much prefer that style, wish there were more of those.

I did look at some replay of the new-ish brawler Fight 'n Rage and that looks fun, but still the same "problems" apply.

[Sumez]

Yeah, I never had a problem with single plane brawlers, especially with one hit kills. But somehow those do feel like a completely different genre.

I'm not really trying to bash on the genre, rather I just really want to get it.

[Marc]

I never understood belt scrolling beat'em ups. I can't beat them, and I never had fun playing any of them. I realise how popular and respected they are, so I really hope that one day I'll be able to "get it", but I just can't figure it out. What am I supposed to do?

Glad it's not just me. Obviously there's strategy involved, as the many 1CC vids prove, but it has so far eluded me. I've never cleared more than three levels on Final Fight with one credit, but I remember hitting a point where I just felt it was weight of numbers and attack damage that was against me, rather than any real AI or stage design.

That said, I started The Ninja Warriors Again last night, and it's fantastic. I know I finished it on JPN import back in the day (and how I ended up buying it is a whole other question, as I was never a fan of the original), but other than that I think I've probably only played it once or twice in the years since. Now this, I feel I can learn. Enemies have definite attacks, the single plane makes their ranges intuitive, and surviving is simply a case of responding to how the games mixes up those various attacks and prioritising the most dangerous. It's graspable, I actually had definite ideas of how I wanted to approach certain crowds. It helps that it's also ULTRA-meaty, one of the most bone-crunching brawlers I've played, up there with the Technos greats. Only managed ST4 boss last night on hard (am I right in remembering this being a long one?), but will definitely be coming back for more.

[BIL]

TNWA is a bit long by arcade standards, yeah.

To an extent, I wish it'd been a shorter, deadlier credit, with more enemies aimed to kill the player outright (one of those rare occasions where I think more palette-swapped boss clones would've been warranted). OTOH, the crowd action is so damn good, it more than acquits itself with an extensive range of mixups. (provided you're playing the SFC version - the SNES one deletes Katanas and papers over the gap with tons of Claws, knocking its variety down a peg).

[Squire Grooktook]

I never understood belt scrolling beat'em ups. I can't beat them, and I never had fun playing any of them. I realise how popular and respected they are, so I really hope that one day I'll be able to "get it", but I just can't figure it out. What am I supposed to do?

Tried popping in Mighty Final Fight today, hoping that the barebones NES gameplay and graphics of the game would make the gameplay more immediately approachable to me, but I'm actually really impressed just how much this game completely feels like a 16-bit beat'em up, for better or worse.

If you want to get into the genre, my advice would be start with the cream of the crop. No offense to Mighty Final Fight (never played it) but what you want is a magnum opus like Capcom's Alien Vs Predator, a game where the movement mechanics on the most basic character (P.Warrior) are so deep and flexible that it becomes a game onto itself.

In general brawlers are like single player fighters, but without the luck-based nature (or pure esoteric ai abuse) that playing a fighter in arcade-mode usually entails. It's all about managing space and working around the attack range of your opponents.

As standard for the genre, it's incredibly repetitive. Just keep walking right while fighting copies of the same guy over and over.

I mean, you could say the same about STG. Game keeps scrolling forward and spawns bullets at you~

In a good brawler, enemies come in their own unique formations and require unique strategies to deal with everytime. Just like an STG.

You might scoff at this while watching a video and wonder how a mook being placed a few paces up adds any depth or variety, but keep in mind that's also what most casuals think when they see stg level design ^_^

Also my pet peeve: how am I supposed to feel like I'm playing as a bad-ass street fighter if it takes three roundhouse kicks, two throws, seven punches and an izuna drop to dispatch even the weakest enemy?

It's a street fight mang, you're socking them, not stabbing them. A lack of one hit death makes sense in that context~

I could go into how combos add more depth in the genre (mostly in terms of managing surrounding enemies...do you do something that will finish off a single target as fast as possible, or go for a wide sweeping attack that will knock down encroaching hordes that threaten to backstab you?), but there's definitely reasons for it besides fluff.

[Sumez]

I've been passing up on AvP enough times that the price has gone too far up to be a realistic purchase for me now, as a non-fan of the genre.

That said, out of every game in the genre I have played, AvP is definitely the one I enjoyed the most. As usual though, I never got a grasp of the gameplay, but the visual spectacle is incredible in that game, and it boasts a ton more (obvious) variation than any other Capcom brawler I have tried.

I mean, you could say the same about STG. Game keeps scrolling forward and spawns bullets at you~

I absolutely believe there's a parallel here, and I actually considered bringing it up in that post, but it was already growing big.
The way I feel about belt brawling scrollers is very similar to how I feel people "outside" the shmup community typically see the genre - or hell, how I used to see the genre back in the 90s before truly getting into the concept of 1CC'ing it.

Basically, if you only ever approach shooters periphically, taking a few runs to test them out and dying on the second or third stage, maybe credit feeding through the last stages and dying so many times you'll be quick to deem the game "impossible" to 1CC and only created to steal quarters from people.
Credit feed through a beat'em up (as many people are very likely to do), and it's extremely easy to get the same impression from these games as someone who isn't ready to delve into a shooter and spend decent time with it, focusing entirely on never getting hit.

That's not helping me here, though, as I feel exactly like a casual scum who doesn't get STGs and think they are all the same game, and impossible to complete. I need to somehow progress to the point where I can play them for survival and understand what makes them unique/good/varied/fun to play. I just have no idea how I can possibly go about that.

[Squire Grooktook]

Oh, ha, buying! I was thinking emulation.

But yeah, I understand how you feel. I was definitely there for a while. A big part of it is that fighting came correlation I mentioned. There's something of a difference in mindset you have to approach them with, where you're thinking more in terms of "footsies" than "dodging".

Also while I do think the sub-genre is respectable, that's not to say it's all gold! Just like STG, there are a lot of formulaic clones which might differ only in the subtlest of nuances (if at all). I don't know just how adverse you are to emulation, but this is why I recommend Capcom's library in particular: Capcom was basically the leading innovator in the genre, and if you play through their brawlers sequentially, you can see how each game they released worked to innovate over the last one. Starting with Final Fights simple "pure spacing" action, introducing parry mechanics in King of Dragon's and Knights of The Round, refining movement mechanics and variety in Dungeons and Dragon's, AVP, and Armored Warriors, etc. Each of their games brings something new to the table which genuinely increases depth.

[Stevens]

I like beat em' ups as a genre, but for a while now I'd rather play Kunio/Spartan X.

Haven't seen passed the 3rd loop in Kunio yet and anything passed 2-4 in Spartan still eludes me.

TNWA has been on my radar for a while. How does that compare to Spartan?

[Sumez]

Emulation is absolutely no-go to me. However I do have access to a lot of arcade games, and local friends who also collect. It's not like you have to be a software pirate to play arcade games :3 I'm not really looking for specific game recommendations though, I'm thinking more of the genre as a whole, and I'd like to appreciate its roots, too.

However, it's not that I don't believe you when you talk about how Capcom did all of those things with each of their games, it's just that when I sit down to play them, I don't see it. I don't see the presumed depth of the gameplay, because it's not readily apparent unless you already know how to approach those games.

[FinalBaton]

I never understood belt scrolling beat'em ups. I can't beat them, and I never had fun playing any of them. I realise how popular and respected they are, so I really hope that one day I'll be able to "get it", but I just can't figure it out. What am I supposed to do?

Probably just the matter of a genre not clicking with you. Not much you can do aboot it, eh?
Stuff like that happens

I never understood belt scrolling beat'em ups. I can't beat them, and I never had fun playing any of them. I realise how popular and respected they are, so I really hope that one day I'll be able to "get it", but I just can't figure it out. What am I supposed to do?

Tried popping in Mighty Final Fight today, hoping that the barebones NES gameplay and graphics of the game would make the gameplay more immediately approachable to me, but I'm actually really impressed just how much this game completely feels like a 16-bit beat'em up, for better or worse.

If you want to get into the genre, my advice would be start with the cream of the crop. No offense to Mighty Final Fight (never played it) but what you want is a magnum opus like Capcom's Alien Vs Predator, a game where the movement mechanics on the most basic character (P.Warrior) are so deep and flexible that it becomes a game onto itself.

In general brawlers are like single player fighters, but without the luck-based nature (or pure esoteric ai abuse) that playing a fighter in arcade-mode usually entails. It's all about managing space and working around the attack range of your opponents.

As standard for the genre, it's incredibly repetitive. Just keep walking right while fighting copies of the same guy over and over.

I mean, you could say the same about STG. Game keeps scrolling forward and spawns bullets at you~

In a good brawler, enemies come in their own unique formations and require unique strategies to deal with everytime. Just like an STG.

You might scoff at this while watching a video and wonder how a mook being placed a few paces up adds any depth or variety, but keep in mind that's also what most casuals think when they see stg level design ^_^

Also my pet peeve: how am I supposed to feel like I'm playing as a bad-ass street fighter if it takes three roundhouse kicks, two throws, seven punches and an izuna drop to dispatch even the weakest enemy?

It's a street fight mang, you're socking them, not stabbing them. A lack of one hit death makes sense in that context~

I could go into how combos add more depth in the genre (mostly in terms of managing surrounding enemies...do you do something that will finish off a single target as fast as possible, or go for a wide sweeping attack that will knock down encroaching hordes that threaten to backstab you?), but there's definitely reasons for it besides fluff.

This. That was a great post Squire

[Sumez]

Heeeey. I'm not a quitter!

I want to be cool.