Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 19077
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Vanguard wrote:
Interesting! It'd be great if we get a bugfix out of this, but that seems unlikely. I'd settle for some quality scrub tears.
I couldn't enjoy the scrub tears knowing HD is the equivalent of signing on for a tough assault course, then having weighted boots and blinders arbitrarily slapped on at the starting line. :sad: Many respectable players will decline the extra work. Only the militantly hardcore will finish. Only total fiends will attempt more. Image

Even a flawlessly-coded HD would send whinier sorts packing, I've no doubt - probably around stage 3's first Moshes aka Deadly Chia Pets.

I wonder how much of HD's deservedly cruel rep is down to those control+graphic flaws. With the generous resources and relaxed HP-farming policy, I like to think it'd be known more as eccentrically wicked than outright punishing, otherwise.

Design commentary seems lacking too, at least in English-speaking circles. It tends to get compared to Castlevania, which is valid at the most superficial level (both broadly file-able under treachery hop), but otherwise? Holy fuck no, not even the pits. It's more like a hybrid of Metroid's shooting + lunar handling and Zelda II's magic system, with a healthy smattering of enemy & stage design taken from both (Black Slayer's barrier break and last climb = Nightmare Tourian; Metal Blades' manic bounce/shoot feeling rather Great Palace Fokker)... along with some lesser yet compelling minutiae (no refuge in doorways; strange dpad/button interactions which Metroid obviously got the better deal of; HP/MP meters seemingly lifted straight from ZII; a bizarre and nigh-identical "pull-up" glitch for reaching high ledges, optional in ZII but canonised by HD's stage design).

Right down to all three's penchants for occasional bullet-spewing, HP-nibbling overkill, it plays more like a devious linear hack of Nintendo's games than anything from Konami's rigorously disciplined benchmark. The bad controls turn it into such an ordeal, though, any finer design points end up obscured under a layer of aggravation few will persist through... one that perhaps makes bitch-hard treachery hops with discrete stages look more similar than they really are.

For passers-by: the distinction of hard game design and faulty controls is basically why this thread got started, and why the first few pages might seem overly-rancorous. If someone's claiming bad controls as a way of covering up for their own failings, the criticism becomes useless when it's actually needed. And we get conflations of eminent works like Ninja Gaiden, Contra and Castlevania with genuine damage cases like Holy Diver. That's misinformation at best and blatant, ass-covering lying at worst. Own your failings, or a pedant like me will hunt you down. It's for the kids. (■`ω´■)
User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 8058
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am
Location: Denmarku
Contact:

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

Maybe I'm playing it wrong, but to me Holy Diver has a constant stop-and-go design, mostly credited to evasive enemies taking multiple hits, putting it in a completely opposite end of the spectrum compared to Ninja Gaiden, with Castlevania being somewhere in the middle (but definitely closer to NG).

That aspect of the game is probably more off-putting to me than the control issues or the brutal difficulty.
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 19077
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

It's not so much playing it wrong - that's how it felt to me too, while learning the ropes (I hated st3's Chia Pet batteries). It's more that the tricks to mow through the bigger, roadblock-type enemies lean towards the esoteric, both through legit design and those fucking bugs. Phantom Lords (the hulking golems first seen in st4) and Hellraisers (twin statues, st5) both punish more conventional approaches... and Chias/METAL BLADES' (st3) bounce/shoot has to manipulated so they're in your line of fire, or they'll make your life hell.

Also worth mentioning - in one of the game's nobler elements, true to IREM fashion the weapons have powerful quirks to exploit. Breaker's summon sphere will splatter Chias and other middleweights, if you can get close enough to connect, while Over Drive's Gradius-style shield cuts deep into enemies on its initial orbits, before tightly circling the player - rather than waiting for it to expire, cancel it with [start] and recast for a mid-ranged bludgeon.

But then the bugs make enemy bullets vanish (Phantom Lords' projectiles are not only fast and painful, they're damn near invisible...), and stifle player response (Chias/Blades would be entirely more open to improv if you didn't have a split-second delay on your every dodge and shot*). As ever, a trainwreck of valid tough design and abominably bad code producing something uniquely evil. Or just broken as fuck, YMMV. Image

*that's what really bugs me here - there's an entire upper performance echelon walled off by the cold, hard fact of random, twitchy action + mandatory control delay. No matter how skilled your performance, those bugs will bite a chunk off. At 1CC level, there are glimpses of a much more flexible game here. Then you go to hop a would-be trivial pit, or shoot a would-be trivial zako, and the glitch workarounds fire up on RED ALART.
User avatar
drauch
Posts: 5638
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:14 am

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by drauch »

They're gonna need those scrub tears to clean their sealed, shelved boxes! :wink:
BIL wrote: "Small sack, LOTS OF CUM" - Nikola Tesla
User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 8058
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am
Location: Denmarku
Contact:

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

I genuinely can't tell if this release will cause an increase or decrease in the going price of the Famicom version.
On one hand you have increased awareness of the game, and on the other, collectors might prefer the new release, considering it's both nicer (?) and still somewhat "official".

Though I do have a feeling that you should probably secure your copies now if you haven't already.
User avatar
kitten
Posts: 1102
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:26 pm
Location: プププランド

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by kitten »

americans prefer anything that looks more like what was sold to americans in their collection (even though they're collecting japanese games), and importing is definitely responsible for the huge rise in price of holy diver. i picked up my copy of holy diver right after AVGN and his parasitic dipshit sidekick (who i discovered records himself doing plays of games like 1cc on contra 3 on hard, but uses saves and then stitches footage together! how extraordinarily pathetic!!) played some of it, and it was seriously starting to ascend on account of that. settled for a loose copy, even though i wanted that cool box for its art.

got it for a decent price as the creep was starting to hit yahoo auctions japan, no idea what it goes for, now. in my experience, any increased awareness tends to raise the original's price, though i'm estimating this won't hit it as hard as youtube having turned its eyes on it. holy diver was something i'd emulated many, many years ago and was one of the last games i played in full on an emulator before stopping, and i was really glad to get a physical copy. played all the way through it a few more times, but didn't put the time in for 1cc or anything. thing that ultimately put me off going for 1cc at the time was the st4 boss, whose invisible bullets were so cruel i'd prefer to be able to memorize a safe pattern on, but didn't feel like sitting through the whole stage again every few failures. definitely a game that benefits tremendously if you're using some savestate training wheels.
~Imagination and memory are but one thing, which for diverse considerations have diverse names~
Image | Image
~*~*~*~*~*~* If there's a place that I could be ~ Then I'd be another memory *~*~*~*~*~*~
User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 8058
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am
Location: Denmarku
Contact:

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

I had no idea James Rolfe and his scum of the earth accomplice had been picking up the game - that definitely explains part of the price hike (aside from the overall increase in Famicom titles all across the board I guess).

Also glad I managed to pick up Magical Pop'n before AGDQ did...


Bonus video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz1WuBIUBHs
User avatar
kitten
Posts: 1102
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:26 pm
Location: プププランド

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by kitten »

i don't have magical pop'n yet and hoo boy even a loose copy is absurd, now Image
~Imagination and memory are but one thing, which for diverse considerations have diverse names~
Image | Image
~*~*~*~*~*~* If there's a place that I could be ~ Then I'd be another memory *~*~*~*~*~*~
User avatar
WelshMegalodon
Posts: 1225
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:09 am

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by WelshMegalodon »

kitten wrote:americans prefer anything that looks more like what was sold to americans in their collection (even though they're collecting japanese games)
I always found it funny and a little regrettable how these collectors end up missing out on large swaths of both the European and Japanese home computer scenes (for example) as they stubbornly focus on the platformers and shooters of machines suited for RPGs, strategy games, and (in the case of the latter) porn. The mountains of console graphic adventures like the Famicom Tantei Club series and the famously untranslated Metal Slader Glory get ignored, too.

Given the official nature of the Holy Diver release I would have expected more people to pick that up instead of going for an original cart, but I don't follow the prices on games, so...

I'm more bothered by the fact that scrubs will be able to point to their fresh run of this flawed example to justify the misconceptions they had about game design in the 'retro days. "See? Games were badly designed back then because developers didn't know how to make them fun yet!" :facepalms:
Indie hipsters: "Arcades are so dead"
Finite Continues? Ain't that some shit.
RBelmont wrote:A little math shows that if you overclock a Pi3 to about 3.4 GHz you'll start to be competitive with PCs from 2002. And you'll also set your house on fire
User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 8058
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am
Location: Denmarku
Contact:

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

WelshMegalodon wrote: I'm more bothered by the fact that scrubs will be able to point to their fresh run of this flawed example to justify the misconceptions they had about game design in the 'retro days. "See? Games were badly designed back then because developers didn't know how to make them fun yet!" :facepalms:
I doubt anyone picking up Holy Diver is gonna have this approach. Despite the reprint, it's still gonna remain niche.
User avatar
copy-paster
Posts: 1686
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:33 pm
Location: Indonesia

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by copy-paster »

kitten wrote:(who i discovered records himself doing plays of games like 1cc on contra 3 on hard, but uses saves and then stitches footage together! how extraordinarily pathetic!!)
W-what? How did you know that?
User avatar
kitten
Posts: 1102
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:26 pm
Location: プププランド

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by kitten »

copy-paster wrote:
kitten wrote:(who i discovered records himself doing plays of games like 1cc on contra 3 on hard, but uses saves and then stitches footage together! how extraordinarily pathetic!!)
W-what? How did you know that?
because he popped up in my YT recommendations and i knew he wasn't diligent enough to actually pull off that degree of play, so i watched very closely. he's a shifty scumbag that usurped james' popularity and ruined his channel and i'd tried watching him do his livestreams before: he's not very good and he's the type of person who desperately, desperately wants acknowledgement & popularity at any cost. i knew something was up and i admittedly had a chip on my shoulder for having to unsubscribe to cinemassacre because of being sick of seeing him become the entire channel's output.

the proof is just in watching the video. i have some sort of intense loathing for how often people either stitch footage or use emulator tools and then show the replay, saying they didn't cheat. anyone with a modicum of skill at these games can tell that they're way too bumbling to pull these kinds of runs off, and mike's play is full of too many spots of luck or awkwardly bad play for it to not be stitched, so i looked extra close, baffled at what was going on. here's the trick! every time he goes for a close-up on his face, he's doing a save just at the end of the end of the close-up footage, while you cannot see the screen. then, to hide the fact that he's stitching, he switches the perspective back to his play predominately taking up the screen and the scare cam being in the upper left. dude's helped james with editing for years, he knows very well what he's doing.

for a visual example of what i'm talking about, look at this -
Spoiler
Image
Image
see those two images? they're one frame right after the other. he is now positioned differently and with an entirely different facial expression. this happens every time he does the close-up, and it's always where he pauses in the game right before a difficult segment to act like he's some kind of pro explaining how it works. there are some that are way more jarring than this one, if you want to watch his play, which i highly recommend not doing. i do not have 100% undeniable proof that he's saving in the cut footage, but there's no other sensible explanation for why he would do these cuts and it's the only thing that explains how his awkward play magically produces these types of runs.

one of the things that initially drew me to posting in this thread from lurking is reading how people talked about these games and then watching their odd footage - if they were stitching or just showing emulated replays, they were damned good at convincingly knowing and playing the game like a seasoned player would. getting one life runs and 1cc's isn't just not dying, it's often knowing the game pretty intimately, and liars almost always reveal themselves in how they play and what they say. i've not suspected anyone in here of being a liar, and honest people who say they pull off these runs are shockingly, upsettingly rare. even for easy games!!!

edit: btw he does this with his hard corps run and other games, as well lol
~Imagination and memory are but one thing, which for diverse considerations have diverse names~
Image | Image
~*~*~*~*~*~* If there's a place that I could be ~ Then I'd be another memory *~*~*~*~*~*~
User avatar
Stevens
Posts: 3805
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 11:44 pm
Location: Brooklyn NY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Stevens »

Hey I asked this a few posts back and was still wondering if anyone knows the answer:

Does anyone know if Kunio is easier than Renegade?

SNOW DAY here in NYC. Gonna get some quality time in today:D
You're sure to be in a fine haze about now, but don't think too hard about all of this. Just go out and kill a few beasts. It's for your own good. You know, it's just what hunters do! You'll get used to it.
User avatar
drauch
Posts: 5638
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:14 am

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by drauch »

I'm not super well-versed in CIII, but how often are extra lives granted?

He beats the stage here with one life left, after losing two: https://youtu.be/jHr_oCdasM0?t=21m28s

But immediately after (you get a cut of his face), and before the scoring starts counting down he's got 2 lives. Then gets an additional all the way back up to three:
https://youtu.be/jHr_oCdasM0?t=21m34s
BIL wrote: "Small sack, LOTS OF CUM" - Nikola Tesla
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 19077
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

III is really generous with the extends, I can say that much offhand. I have something like fifteen reserve lives at the end of a typical no-miss attempt, despite absolutely no scoring effort (which makes blowing the whole run on the tiniest mistake sting extra hard Image ).

As for FALSIFICARE, I don't take James/Mike's ilk seriously enough to expect any less.

I only started uploading runs when I noticed TASvideos' custom emulators all have inbuilt AVI writing (my PC can't do it in realtime), and figured the input files would track... I dunno, evidence of stitching? But it wasn't until Senjou no Okami II Original Nomiss @ Hard that I realised stuff like slowdown mode won't show up. -_-

So since then my policy is, if you suspect I'm cheating, provide an approved emulator and I'll record something similar for it. If it's something significantly gut-wrenching that I don't plan to ever do again, like the Holy Diver nomiss, you might need to give me a week or so. My only other stipulation is that you accuse me loudly and publicly so I can smash it right back in your dumb fucking face. :cool: (depending on mood and available time I might just tell you to fuck off, but I'll get back to it eventually... foolish pride :oops: )

Not that I think anything I've recorded is notable enough for the accusation. Someone asked if my shitty Vampire Killer Expert/John 1LC of all things was TAS, and I politely explained that no it wasn't, that I don't actually know how you go about making such things, and that my roughly 85% POW-less play was absolute gonorrhea besides. :lol:

I've never shared the motivation of cheaters. I understand it: the same deeply-misplaced fame-chasing you see all over the internet. But I record not so much to demonstrate any ability of my own, but to give a preview of the game; the sort I'll seek out when trying to determine if something is for me or not. If you're doing blatantly cheesy, superhuman stuff (see the comedic World of Longplays Dragon Blaze replay mentioned in Perikles' archaeology thread, recently, or the LOVE & SNUGGLES exploits of Rebecca "Pause Button" Loveheart in 360 Futari), you're only painting a false picture of how the game handles. And that ain't shit but a bunch of dicks.
Last edited by BIL on Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
drauch
Posts: 5638
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:14 am

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by drauch »

Yeah, still honestly don't even know what TAS entails usually, besides incompetent play that miraculously beats the game without taking damage. Like, doesn't having assistance via a tool kinda, uh... defeat the purpose? Never understood why so many goobs are all about it, especially with speedrunning.

Was watching some 1cc beat 'em up replays recently and kept noticing how cornball the playstyle was, and it was always the user SCHLAUCHI. Also the Dragon Blaze guy, it looks! Guess he's the king of WoL, according to my quick google search. No wonder he's everywhere! *swoon* What a hero!

T: Total
A: Asshole
S: SCHLAUCHI

But I guess too, sadly, that most people just watch these wacky wild craaaazy videos of people beating notoriously 'hard' games from their childhood of that dreaded nostalgia bug. Ya know you shouldn't go there, but I play a sick game with myself of checking out the comment section, seeing how fast I can see something say "MAH CHILDHOOD", "This game was impossible when I was a kid!", "I think I beat this as a kid, too", ETC. And it's usually everything, so I guess that's where the apathy comes from, and the subsequent inflated ego of the cheater for getting his couple seconds of backwash fame as the MASTER GAMER.
BIL wrote: "Small sack, LOTS OF CUM" - Nikola Tesla
User avatar
FinalBaton
Posts: 4461
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:38 pm
Location: Québec City

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by FinalBaton »

You've got to be some kind of sociopath to cheat in videogames for ehhh... online video game fame?? (lol just typing this is funny as hell)

What kind of gratification is this giving you in real life exactly? You'll never meet people who admire your cheat-runs, not even befriend them online most-probably. Never-mind the fact that you didn't earn any of it. But even if you did, it's nothing that changes one's life, you know? Nothing too grand in the grand scheme of things. I just don't get it... why go through that trouble? it's not even worth it.

What's the payoff exactly? What is the honorific title that comes with this fame?

"I AM KING OF AUTISTS, HEAR ME ROAR. RAWRRR!!!" :lol: congrats bud, lmao
Last edited by FinalBaton on Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-FM Synth & Black Metal-
User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 8058
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am
Location: Denmarku
Contact:

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

BIL wrote:my policy is, if you suspect I'm cheating, provide an approved emulator and I'll record something similar for it.
I'm not sure why anyone here would suspect anyone else of cheating. No one has a reason to prove themselves about anything, and the only drive here is love and interest for the games we play.
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 19077
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Sumez wrote:I'm not sure why anyone here would suspect anyone else of cheating. No one has a reason to prove themselves about anything, and the only drive here is love and interest for the games we play.
Me neither, honestly. Totally out of character for this thread and this community in general. Then again kitten is relatively new here. (edit: I know you're not accusing anyone kitten - just saying, it's rare the subject even comes up :smile: )

Within this thread, I could maybe, at his absolute worst, see wacky ol' Edmans levelling such an accusation. Because he's a bitter fantasist more interested in feels than reals (edit2: linking in case anyone wonders why I even mention this chap anymore - he's a fucking rare example of a mad scrub, that's why :shock:). But then he fucked off years ago.
Last edited by BIL on Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Stevens
Posts: 3805
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 11:44 pm
Location: Brooklyn NY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Stevens »

Hey guys. I just got a blind 1 LC of Hard Corps but won't provide any proof.

You believe me right 8) ?

In things that actually happened I almost made loop three of Kunio.
You're sure to be in a fine haze about now, but don't think too hard about all of this. Just go out and kill a few beasts. It's for your own good. You know, it's just what hunters do! You'll get used to it.
User avatar
Obscura
Posts: 1805
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:19 am

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Obscura »

Legitimate TAS play (that is, obviously superhuman speedruns or styleruns that are marked as TAS) can be cool, IMO; it's fun to watch a familiar game get blown apart in incomprehensible ways.
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 19077
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Obscura wrote:Legitimate TAS play (that is, obviously superhuman speedruns or styleruns that are marked as TAS) can be cool, IMO; it's fun to watch a familiar game get blown apart in incomprehensible ways.
Oh yeah, absolutely. TASer notes can also be a really good source of in-depth mechanical information, even for players with no actual interest in TASing.
User avatar
dojo_b
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:04 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by dojo_b »

(I see this is expanding on Obscura's/BIL's points) Cheating at videogames isn't always about a twisted need for fame/attention. At its core cheating is bending the rules of an activity, resulting in a new activity. This could be done for several reasons:

-technical (e.g., building a new TAS is an interesting challenge and teaches some concrete skills)

-game study (learning about the innards of favorite games and the outer limits of skilled play)

-social/antisocial (the thrills of deception in perpetrating a Youtube fraud, or griefing others in a multiplayer setting)

My attitude towards it depends partly on my regard for the underlying game. I shudder at the thought of save-stating through Ninja Gaiden even on a practice run, because I've committed to the 'OG settings' for that game (though I admit using save states is a valid alternative path). But if I was forced to sink 100 hours either into playing Counter-Strike, or developing a new aimbot for it, I might choose the latter.
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 19077
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

BTW, regarding the Dragon Blaze longplay mentioned above - how not to 2.6 midboss, unless you are literally the T-800 sent back in time to assassinate the WR:

Image

Human beings should observe SYO-sama's methods instead.
Last edited by BIL on Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
WelshMegalodon
Posts: 1225
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:09 am

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by WelshMegalodon »

Funny you should bring up Edmond again, because I came across some Wizardry posts he made on Digitpress just last year.

I seem to recall a few individuals claiming that the level "bug" in question was in fact real, caused by a misunderstanding of the Apple Pascal RANDOM function when porting to DOS, but I can't provide any sources because they all link to warez.
Good God, that's hilarious.
Indie hipsters: "Arcades are so dead"
Finite Continues? Ain't that some shit.
RBelmont wrote:A little math shows that if you overclock a Pi3 to about 3.4 GHz you'll start to be competitive with PCs from 2002. And you'll also set your house on fire
User avatar
FinalBaton
Posts: 4461
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:38 pm
Location: Québec City

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by FinalBaton »

dojo_b wrote:
Well I still think that stiching together a run and calling it legit is disgusting, like what Matei did.
Not talking about TAS. Althought it's not for me, if it's clearly indicated that the run is TAS then I don't have a problem with it.
dojo_b wrote:-social/antisocial (the thrills of deception in perpetrating a Youtube fraud, or griefing others in a multiplayer setting)
just because some people do this, doesn't make this any less lame. Talk about being an EdgeLord...

besides, doing something like this discredits you. it's clearly not worth loosing your name for "the thrillz", whatever they may be.
Sorry but I've got no respect for it. Cheating is cheating.
-FM Synth & Black Metal-
User avatar
__SKYe
Posts: 701
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:51 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by __SKYe »

BIL wrote:
Sumez wrote:I'm not sure why anyone here would suspect anyone else of cheating. No one has a reason to prove themselves about anything, and the only drive here is love and interest for the games we play.
Me neither, honestly. Totally out of character for this thread and this community in general. Then again kitten is relatively new here. (edit: I know you're not accusing anyone kitten - just saying, it's rare the subject even comes up :smile: )

Within this thread, I could maybe, at his absolute worst, see wacky ol' Edmans levelling such an accusation. Because he's a bitter fantasist more interested in feels than reals (edit2: linking in case anyone wonders why I even mention this chap anymore - he's a fucking rare example of a mad scrub, that's why :shock:). But then he fucked off years ago.
Absolutely agree with this. Not even when people post here about getting a 1CC/1LC without any screenshot/video (happens all the time). Take your Edmond example -- he's certainly pissed at NG, but even he never made false claims of having cleared it (that I know of).
Simply not the kind of thing I even consider when it comes to this forum/thread's posters.
Stevens wrote:Hey I asked this a few posts back and was still wondering if anyone knows the answer:

Does anyone know if Kunio is easier than Renegade?
Since you mention loops I'm assuming you're talking about the arcade game: I've also looked around before, both for regional differences between the original and the FC port, but I couldn't find anything mentioned, other than the visual/theme differences.
I haven't played the arcade games nearly enough to be certain, though, and the lack of information on the web may also be because others haven't played them nearly enough as well. :)
I really have to go for a 1CC on the arcade Kunio-kun, since I've already done it on the FC port.
FinalBaton wrote:Well I still think that stiching together a run and calling it legit is disgusting, like what Matei did.
Not talking about TAS. Althought it's not for me, if it's clearly indicated that the run is TAS then I don't have a problem with it.
Totally agree here too. Like I've said before, I don't care much for TAS videos, but I do respect both them and the players, but the Youtube-style stitching or save-die-reload thing is just disgusting.
My philosophy is: record a clear/1CC only if you're capable of doing so on a single siting, otherwise, and even if you can't clear the whole game but want to show a specific section, then record that section only. "No editing" should be mandatory. :wink:
Last edited by __SKYe on Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
kitten
Posts: 1102
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:26 pm
Location: プププランド

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by kitten »

drauch wrote:I'm not super well-versed in CIII, but how often are extra lives granted?
ya that cut is definite evidence of cheating. if you beat a boss and get an extend b/c of its death you'll see it before the cut to the score tally. there's no magical 1ups in the twilight between the screen fade :B

god, it's so pathetic!!!
BIL wrote:As for FALSIFICARE, I don't take James/Mike's ilk seriously enough to expect any less.
james seems upstanding enough to own up to something like that. he doesn't ever try to pass his stuff off as competent play and just enjoys his games. i genuinely don't understand why he keeps mike around as company - i'm not saying james is a "good person" or anything along those lines, but mike is really obviously a liar and shifty scumbag who definitely tried hard to usurp his buddy's fame. i guess they were just good pals as kids or young adults?
BIL wrote:But I record not so much to demonstrate any ability of my own, but to give a preview of the game; the sort I'll seek out when trying to determine if something is for me or not.
one of my biggest motivations for starting to record was exactly this, and it's also why i use "longplay" in my titles. it's the most frequently used term for a full play of a game, and it's the easiest & quickest way to find a full play of something. i use it to get a quick grasp on how something plays quite frequently, and i've come across so many sleezebag liars attempting to pass their stuff of as legitimate that it's driven me bonkers. was lying in bed unable to sleep one night and went searching and really stupidly got into a protracted argument with one of the really prolific ones where i tried desperately to get them to admit that a nomiss they'd done wasn't legitimate - they refused, offered the usual excuses, said they played it as a kid, etc. and then, a few months later, i was searching the game again and saw they uploaded a new play of the game that was still obviously cheated through and abysmally bad play. better than the previous run, but it was some shameful track-covering and it was funny to think that that was the only game that gave them away.

one of their only plays of a game where they couldn't use savestates (duck tales remastered on ps3) has them dying repeatedly against hilariously simple stuff, too. i feel like a total psychopath digging through all of someone's youtube videos like this, but it's because i start doubting my own perception and just want some conclusive evidence. less trying to damn them, more trying to prove to myself that i can trust my intuition. full disclosure: i was gaslighted/abused a lot as a kid, so i have some sort neurotic reaction to being lied to that upsets me and makes me feel like i have some onus to disprove on me.

i imagine there are others out there who would rather see how a game is actually played than watch some amateur bumble through it on the assumption it's legitimate! going back several posts - "i feel like one of the highest bars for entry for enjoying a wide berth of classic action games isn't the difficulty barrier but the lack of people who similarly understand them to relate to or read about, honestly!" i really stick by this sentiment - the popular pulls for perspective on classic games are:

1. emulator tourism
2. nostalgia
3. speedrunning
4. it's obsolete/"inaccessible"

all of which tend to not take the games for what they are, but via some twisted perspective. speedrunning sometimes hits a more genuine appreciation, and as i've been over before, i do respect some runners like funkdoc quite a bit. but for the most part, the whole speedrunning community is full of fame-seeking (problems within it w/r/t footage stitching have become tremendous, lately) and people who get serious tunnel-vision on the games. this is without mentioning that it puts competent play on a high pedestal and makes many of the viewers feel like improving themselves is obsolete b/c reaching that level is seen as superhuman. i feel like some sort of doddering old weirdo whenever i try to convince people to sit down and just enjoy some of this stuff without all the toxic influence.

so, so, so many of my friends and people orbiting my circle watch SGDQ and AGDQ every single year but balk at me when i try to suggest they, too, could be doing one life clears with a little application. i start to feel like the conservative aunt at the thanksgiving table trying to sell everyone on picking themselves up by the bootstraps and loving jesus, or that i'm seen as showing off a purple heart and asking others to get one, too. it's just video games. they're fun! there's no politics, they're just entertainment. i see the term "inaccessible" used so often - weaponized terminology meant to pull on your heartstrings, like rockman making you start a level over is somehow in any way similar to a library without a wheelchair ramp. the idea a precise challenge is the 'content' and that the visuals/music/story are secondary seems to baffle so many.
drauch wrote:Yeah, still honestly don't even know what TAS entails usually, besides incompetent play that miraculously beats the game without taking damage. Like, doesn't having assistance via a tool kinda, uh... defeat the purpose? Never understood why so many goobs are all about it, especially with speedrunning.
actual tool-assisted speedrunning (TAS) is sometimes technically interesting for seeing what lies just outside the realm of human possibility. it's neat to see a game torn apart. most tool-assisted play is more equivalent to tourism, where people just lazily savestate or use the rewind and slowdown functions to never have to experience/death failure. most of these people tend to think this explores all of the game's content and is the best way to appreciate a lot of older games, especially action stuff. some emulators save replays that don't show any of this stuff being used, so it is purely simple to be able to bang out an assisted play and just say it was legitimate.

schlauchi is actually one of the better persons about their save-stated play - they make a genuine attempt to kind of look like they actually know how to play, though it's often pretty obvious that they're abusing tools. their purpose in doing save-stated runs it to show off a bevy of games, too, so i'm not necessarily against that. many other people who contribute to world of longplays vids (they admit all their runs are tool-assisted in the channel bio, iirc) are way more overt and obvious and have play that is truly stupid or even frustrating to watch. really misleading as to how games are played and kind of against the channel's entire purpose of meaning to be instructive.

there's this one channel - shadowserg - that shows "no damage" runs of bosses that is quite popular. no mention of it being cheated, however. look them up and watch their play of TNWA if you want a serious laugh at how they don't even know most of the basic moveset and are blatantly cheating. iirc, they fight the last boss for like 2 solid minutes before realizing you have to throw enemies into him and were too lazy to rewind that footage. they also curiously host a lot of videos by the player who goes by arektheabsolute, who as far as i can tell is a genuine player and enthusiast. really threw me off for a little while, and i don't know why a genuine player would want their videos on a channel like that.
BIL wrote:
Sumez wrote:I'm not sure why anyone here would suspect anyone else of cheating. No one has a reason to prove themselves about anything, and the only drive here is love and interest for the games we play.
Me neither, honestly. Totally out of character for this thread and this community in general. Then again kitten is relatively new here. (edit: I know you're not accusing anyone kitten - just saying, it's rare the subject even comes up :smile: )
ah, yes! i want to make really clear i'm not accusing anyone. i just have an aura of immediate suspicion with everyone because of how rampant lying or seeking accolades is that i came into this thread with and very gladly had dispelled.

everyone here seems quite trustworthy, open, and honest about their aptitude and application with games.
it's deeply refreshing! Image

also, hugely sorry for the giant post! i just have very little ground to ever vent about this with my friends/communities.
~Imagination and memory are but one thing, which for diverse considerations have diverse names~
Image | Image
~*~*~*~*~*~* If there's a place that I could be ~ Then I'd be another memory *~*~*~*~*~*~
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 19077
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

WelshMegalodon wrote:
Good God, that's hilarious.
Other than the Benny Hill-esque dodging itself, I just love the idea of someone being good enough to 2-ALL the game, yet either not knowing how to speedkill that midboss, nor possessing any concepts of bullet-herding/macro-dodging...

OR knowing about those things full well, and deliberately forsaking them to face its hell-spray head-on before landing the coup de grace out of sheer spite. At this point it's true escapism - like watching Kenshiro take a crossbow bolt to the chest out of sheer contempt, then smashing the horrified sender's face out the back of his skull. :lol:

(yo, World of Longplays dude, if you are legit I'm just gonna say, pls don't track me down and put the hurt on me with your superhuman coordination :shock: motherfucker could probably dodge gunfire while parkouring up sheer walls to frisbee your head clean off with a flying garbage can lid)
Last edited by BIL on Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Stevens
Posts: 3805
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 11:44 pm
Location: Brooklyn NY

Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Stevens »

Thanks Skye.

After playing both for the better part of a week arcade Renegade definitely feel harder than arcade Kunio. I won't go so far as to say they upped the difficulty by adding bullshit but it certainly feels like they did.
You're sure to be in a fine haze about now, but don't think too hard about all of this. Just go out and kill a few beasts. It's for your own good. You know, it's just what hunters do! You'll get used to it.
Post Reply