Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[BIL]

Hey, I'm Sri, the programmer and composer for Steel Assault! I got linked to this thread where you guys were talking about our game a few pages ago. I just wanted to let you all know that if anyone's interested, we just launched campaigns on Kickstarter and Steam Greenlight:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/43113410/steel-assault

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=377961407

Good post. I do like the sound of late-era NES styling with sensible liberties taken. Strictly as a consumer and action fan, I think graphical flicker is the machine's one real drawback*. As much as it's my most fondly regarded platform, sometimes it's tempting to play stuff like Holy Diver, Guevara and Recca in emulation with sprite limit disabled.

*a JAMMA-style third face button would've made all the difference too, but eh.

[blackoak]

Hey, I'm Sri, the programmer and composer for Steel Assault! I got linked to this thread where you guys were talking about our game a few pages ago. I just wanted to let you all know that if anyone's interested, we just launched campaigns on Kickstarter and Steam Greenlight.

Yeah, thanks for posting here. I really like what you wrote about the aesthetics... Sunsoft's first Batman really hits that noir feel perfectly for me. I always loved the way many of the animations (gears etc) come in and out of the shadows.

I like how overt this is too: "tight length, tight design, and high difficulty." Will definitely back on kickstarter!

[SriK]

Hey, thanks guys! And thanks to the person who backed from this thread (was it you, blackoak?)

We just hit over 20% funded ($1600) last night! Pretty exciting stuff, maybe we can gain some more momentum and break 2K today.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Alright Ninja Gaiden people, I'm trying to clear NGIII without using the invincible fire wheel, but I'm having trouble getting consistent. What's the trick to dodging Clancy's lightning bolt attack? It seems like just running left and right should work, but sometimes I get hit anyway.

[BIL]

Around here pegboy would probably be the one to ask, he avoids all but one set of bolts in his no-miss. I'm not quite sure myself how the pattern works, but I'm nowhere as familiar with NG3 as the first two.

Always good to see the non-firewheel method being attempted! For all the bitching about NG1's boss rush knockback, NG3's final stage combo of time pressure + stop/start hazards is a real design issue.

Then again, those vanquished by BRK to complain on the interweb probably ain't thinkin about no-misses to begin with.

[pegboy]

I think you just need to be running well before he starts throwing lightning, I think you also have to change directions at least once or he will hit you. In that run I posted I got kind of greedy blasting him with the fire attack one too many times and waited to long before running? The best strategy is to hit him twice, then run. Or just use the fire wheel and smoke him easily lol.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Always good to see the non-firewheel method being attempted! For all the bitching about NG1's boss rush knockback, NG3's final stage combo of time pressure + stop/start hazards is a real design issue.

Heh, I love the timer. I love everything about the level, honestly, even the backstory. It's definitely going down as one of my all-time favorite stages. There's plenty of harder games, but none feel like a more thorough test than racing through that mess.

I think you just need to be running well before he starts throwing lightning, I think you also have to change directions at least once or he will hit you.

Changing directions is definitely not a requirement; if I open the fight by tossing a couple fire shots and then running to the far right, I can avoid all three bolts. But there's some weird timing thing going on where doing the same maneuver in certain situations will cause me to get hit by the second bolt. I'm gonna fuck around a bit and see if anything sticks; I need more practice in Acts 5 and 6 anyway.

[BIL]

The current run on SDA shuts him down by standing roughly center-left and slashing, causing Clancy to stop in place and fire, with the bolts just missing Ryu like he's too close to hit. So I wonder if there's a positioning element too.

I'd love to know if the designers really were thinking "use firewheel, or be a man goddamnit!" on that stage. Impressive balls if so! It's maybe telling that despite the JP difficulty nerfs, time is just as short. It feels to me like there's a timer refresh missing around the second BGM change. Happy accident, perhaps... it's a hell of a final challenge for the trilogy either way.

Not that this series ever hesitated to push players a bit. Makes sense narratively too. Ryu would be hauling ass to the bridge before Clancy could nuke Boston or something.

[Volteccer_Jack]

http://youtu.be/Cz4eSpB6mxI
Never recorded a run like this before, so if I look nervous and jittery as fuck, it's because I am. The reason I don't skip the final boss cutscenes immediately is that I'm trying to stop my hands shaking! Totally winging it for Act 3 boss and 5-1, first half of Act 6 is hella sloppy but worked out well. Thanks to sucky recording, my awesome MLG windmill shurikens in Act 7 are invisible. You can't tell from the video, but that first shuriken in 7-2B doesn't come out at all, which frustratingly made me get hit. In general I was rushing too much and taking too much damage, I end the game with 40 seconds to spare.

What I learned from fucking with Clancy: The bolts can be avoided on timing alone, alternating between standing still and running would be a perfect method if I could get the timing down. The consistent method I came up with is two flame shots then jump slash, hesitate for a fraction and then hard right to dodge the first bolt, then double back to dodge the others. Naturally I managed to screw it up anyway in the run.

[BIL]

MANFUL (・｀W´・)

Congrats - forty seconds is a pretty healthy reserve! Definitely leans me more towards thinking the designers were just being harsh, rather than careless. Will add to the OP if it's ok, once I'm done tidying up the replay list a little.



Loved this bit. Awww sheeeit! Nice quick kill on the Act IV boss too. As you say the rest of the game pales in comparison to Act VII, but he can be so tedious if he gets away.

[Volteccer_Jack]

The timer feels tighter than it is because half the level is crowded time-wasters like the first exterior run and the other half is those "red light green light" spikes and big jumps across empty space. But once I realized that fire wheel was saving my route more hassle than time, it became apparent the time limit is perfectly manageable. If you don't dilly-dally, even a slow run has enough time for a final boss speedkill. Of course that's assuming you already know exactly what is expected of you, which on your first time you don't.

I love any trick that involves running ahead of enemy fire. In that particular case, the bullet is even my guide; you can see how the spikes rise and then vanish along with it. The Act IV boss button mashi--I mean strategy is sooo satisfying; he went from one of the worst bosses to one of the most fun as soon as I figured it out.

Will add to the OP if it's ok, once I'm done tidying up the replay list a little.

Yeah, totally. I might try and record a less messy run (maybe grab that last 1up for an even 9 lives ), but I'm getting kind of hooked on Ganryu at the moment, so no promises.

[BIL]

Been replaying Circle of the Moon and Harmony of Dissonance this week. These two were my only real forays into the GBA back in the day, respectively beginning and ending my brief time with the format. So it's been interesting revisiting them now that I've rustled up a little GBA library.

My enduring memory of COTM was compact sprites, sharp controls and tight collision in service of speedy, unforgiving SOTN Richter-esque action. And yeah, pretty much. Quite delighted with this one, snapped it up after it devoured an afternoon like it was 2001. I'm "replaying," really - in all these years I never bothered with the bonus character classes. Allowing for some balance issues (Magician's summon spam, Fighter's unassailable ATK+DEF cockslap), they're good fun and more than distinct enough from the default Vampire Killer. Really digging the fragile, subweapon-dependent Shooter. Map design and progression is pedestrian but combat is constant and mistakes hurt like hell. Solid action game. Huge bonus boner for the rugged as hell Battle Arena, as well as peppering explored areas with nastier enemies later on.

And now, aww shit, it's time for the next gripping episode of 2ND OPINON, featuring Concerto of Midnight Sun (which is not an Akumajou Dracula! Or even an Akumajou Dracula X! owned!)



HOD actually made me sell the launch GBA I'd gotten for COTM. I utterly detested its clunky handling, lame action and interminably inflated map. And it was kinda ugly. It did however do me the service of shattering my faith in mainstream game reviews. "EGM rove SOTN+COTM and they ownz, how can this 10/10 review go wrong MIRITE" ahaha... BAWWW

I will say HOD benefits from prior experience. The dual-layered map is a neat concept, and knowing of its eventual appearance takes the edge off Castle Treasury and its featureless hallways' torpedoing of the promising opening areas. Much moreso than in the prior two games, picking through the castle feels like the primary attraction. Good thing, as HOD has neither Magical Vacation Dracula's charm nor COTM's sharp action. This is a remarkably ugly game on the whole, with sporadically lovely backgrounds ever blighted by one Juicy Berumondo. Juicy runs like he's shat himself. He jumps like he's shat himself. He even walks like he's shat himself. Whenever he's in motion, farce ensues. It looks like programmer art.

Handling is spoiled by an absolute shit sandwich in the jump attack dept. Whip in the air and lose all control, save "forward" (straight into whatever you're attacking). Going for a small hop to smack something just above? You're getting the max height jump, asshole! No seriously - the game will instantly hijack jump height, sending you flying past your target straight into whatever's above. You'll need to hop, wait until you're descending, then attack as your target escapes. Remarkable.

But yeah, the map's fun to pick through. Maybe it's my playing glorious nippon ver and not being able to read a damn thing, but I've enjoyed ferreting out the next point of ingress. I suppose in the experience of fumbling through one's surroundings it's not really a sidescrolling action game so much as a sidescrolling dementia simulator, but I'm not entirely hating it.

[Squire Grooktook]

I can only barely bring myself to have some fondness for HOD due to the few genuinely interesting pieces of art and the strangely oppressive music and atmosphere. Might just be me but some stuff in the game...

Spoiler

Well that's certainly new.

Anyway been playing some Rastan Saga lately. I first picked up Volgarr The Viking again for that satisfying sword swinging action, but became pretty bored a lot faster than my previous play sessions with it last year due to realizing how ridiculously static and memo oriented the game is. The comparatively bland spritework and dull ambient orchestral music gave me an itch for Taito's bright and colorful sprites and memorable tunes in Rastan, even if my first impression with that titles gameplay last time wasn't terribly impressive. Now I think it's quite a bit more fun.

One of the things hampering my initial impression were the physics. I originally believed there was some sort of inertia on movement and jumps, but not quite so. There doesn't seem to be any "real" physics system in place, your character simply loses a few points of speed when changing direction or moving from a stop. Unnecessary but it doesn't really stop you from evading. As for the jumps, they have a very strange system where they arc and than drop straight down at the same exact point, regardless of jump height. It can be a bit deceptive until you understand it, but once you do its very consistent and makes platforming and combat a lot easier.

What I like in particular in the game is the atmosphere. The constantly respawning enemies and occasional alternate routes in the overworld stages give a real feeling of fending for oneself in a hostile wild. Things start to feel harder and harder the more you try to camp, as enemies build up, so it does seem to do a good job of forcing you to be wary of just how fast or how slow you move through. The dungeon areas are similarly menacing, with the more aggressive human enemies constantly tracking you, popping out from corners and slowing inching toward your location at all times, giving a feeling of being an intruder under attack in a forbidden place.

Things seem fairly random. Enemies seem to spawn in set points but tend to wander on their own, which can result in them ending up far from their initial spawn point. It strikes me as a bit Ninja-Gaiden ish in that there's not a ton of dodging per se but making it into attacking range against certain defensive foes can be a struggle on its own. Overall liking the game a lot, might even be able to get a 1cc if I stick with it.

[BIL]

HOD's best visuals really are quite beautiful/eerie. The otherworld castle's view of a bloody lake beneath a glaring red sky with dense forest beyond really leapt out at me this time around. And I love this scene of ruined elegance early on, recalling the original Dracula's marble-arched gardens:



Much like Juste's respectable standing frames versus his appalling moving ones, the little highlights make me wish Konami had gone for one great effort in 2002/3, not two games in as many years.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Circle of the Moon always struck me as being slow and grindy and slow (indeed, loading it up in an emulator, I couldn't even bear to slog through the first section to get the running shoes). Lots of enemies have way too much health, sub-weapons are useless, magic is locked away behind IGAvania's trademark once-in-a-blue-moon random drop rates, and I honestly can't tell whether you're supposed to grind XP or the bosses are supposed to take aeons to die. It's no exaggeration to say that 95% of my enjoyment of the game came from double jump + wall jump shenanigans, which are admittedly extremely fun. I would probably have a different impression if the 'classes' were available from the start, as from what little I played, they seemed MUCH better than the normal game. But "after you've already beaten the game and also you have to beat it 3 more times to get them all" was about the same as not even including them for me.

Dissonance meanwhile is ugly as sin and full of idiosyncrasies, but I can forgive that because the combat has really excellent flow and nuance to it that makes me enjoy the game on fundamental level. It's my favorite GBAvania tbh.

[BIL]

Having to beat and unlock each individual class in COTM is unfortunate, yeah - I could maybe get beating it once for the four unlocks, with something for clearing them all after. Especially as I get the impression the designers broke up the game's subsystems among the classes. Cross is literally the only subweapon worth having for Vampire Killer but Shooter benefits enormously from the whole set. Most of Magician's coolest cards (like Black Dog and Unicorn) are exceedingly unlikely to be encountered by any other class besides Thief.

Magician is first unlocked at least, probably the most fun with its glass cannon antics. I used Mars+Unicorn's immensely badass holy sword for pretty much the whole run, was rad and super fast.

Reminds me of something else... I like how some weapons (like that sword) have a proximity effect, with damage boosting by hundreds if you're at point blank. I loved hyper-hopping over big enemies' heads and running them straight through for an instant kill.

Regarding grinding, I definitely didn't notice any in Vampire Killer mode - but I was packing the cross from the earliest opportunity, which might've sped things up. If you can get two crosses halting on a boss (or any other big target) they'll get torn the hell up in short order.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah, not using sub-weapons and attempting to rely purely on magic bludgeoning is a big mistake for Vampire Killer (one I made myself first playthrough).

[Ed Oscuro]

IGAvania's trademark once-in-a-blue-moon random drop rates

Igarashi didn't have anything to do with the game, in case anybody doesn't know.

One of the things he criticized was the graphical look - Harmony gets a bad rap given that at the time we were hearing that accomplished 2D pixel artists were starting to become a rare thing. CotM reportedly had a lot of its graphics farmed out. Iga criticized the game's graphics in particular, and while I think they are nice, I have to agree with him: They don't work well on the GBA of the time period. Even on a DS Lite, the heavy use of dark outlines causes problems with the screen scrolling. Harmony usually looks quite ugly, but to Iga's credit he was trying to find a home inside Konami for good artists again.

Onto substantive issues, I haven't ever actually played the class modes. Just once through the main game seemed to be enough for me, but "glass cannon antics" sounds pretty compelling. I'll have to give it a go sometime. Can't you just use the special name codes (FIREBALL, DAGGER, GRADIUS, CROSSBOW) without playing through the main game?

[BIL]

Sadly no, I don't think the names alone will work.

COTM's graphics are utilitarian at best for sure (GBA screen issues aside - I'm playing all this stuff on emulator or GBP). I ROFLd that apparently* our friendly independent grocers' alliance also had a go at the controls, which just ain't cricket given Juicy's cement shoes! Also something about the DSS cards clashing with CV's proud cultural history, unlike HOD's Make Muh Sitting Room Sparkle sidequest, presumably.

On the GBA Draculavania tip, does anyone like/love/hate AOS? I can't get a feeling on it either way, is it meant to be one of those Pokemon games? Makes my weiner go all floppy either way. I do think it's terribly bland visually... I prefer HOD's ghastly Argento-style GBH by primary colour.

*says wikipedia or some shit! might all be a bunch a porkies, I dunno. I got modes to clear yo!

[Squire Grooktook]

AOS is better than HOD imo but still not terribly interesting from a gameplay standpoint. The end games bosses (starting with Balore) are very fun but up until that point the battles are only a marginal step above HOD's. The main reason to play AOS is getting to fight a Belmont while a top notch medley of Heart of Fire and Don't Wait Until Night plays. I would recommend Dawn of Sorrow (and the whole ds trilogy) vastly above it for having better/more challenging level design, bosses, music, etc.

[Volteccer_Jack]

The Soul system is great, if only because it means there a good 70+ subweapons, many of which are unique and useful, but the art style, the music, the bosses, the level design all scream "scaled down for portables!" I enjoyed it the first time through, and then again playing as Julius, but going back to it has proven impossible. Lots of people say it is the best of the three on the GBA, but it feels unfilling to me and didn't leave much impression. The sequel Dawn of Sorrow is a comprehensive improvement.

[Mortificator]

Oooohhhhh, I see what you two are doing.

having better/more challenging level design

Masterpiece. Lament of Innocence and Curse of Darkness were solidly the pinnacle of castle design, so it's sheer joy to play the 2D equivalent.

A failure of Aria's system is that each soul you eat instantly gives you a new attack or ability, at peak performance and ready to be used. This series' greatest strength is its RPG element, so Dawn plays to that by making the souls start out at a fraction of full power until the player grinds them to completion. Aria only had one thing to level-up, your own character; Dawn has 56 more.

Every prior Castlevania game had terrible bosses. "Why," I've asked, "why don't they require the player to take his hand off the controls and draw a little picture with a stylus!?" Dawn finally - FINALLY - incorporates what every real fan's always wanted. The icing on the cake is that bosses look like this:

[Volteccer_Jack]

Well first of all I don't see what's so wrong about that level. It's visually repetitive, I guess, but that's kind of the point, given the boss's demise, and it doesn't play repetitively. It's more inspired than any area in Aria, which at their very best are scaled down and simplified duplicates of Symphony of the Night areas.

A failure of Aria's system is that each soul you eat instantly gives you a new attack or ability, at peak performance and ready to be used. This series' greatest strength is its RPG element, so Dawn plays to that by making the souls start out at a fraction of full power until the player grinds them to completion. Aria only had one thing to level-up, your own character; Dawn has 56 more.

Every soul is tied to random drop rates. You have to grind just to get the souls in the first place, so it's not as if Aria has any big advantage here. You're also overstating the importance of levelling the souls. The majority of the subweapon souls are reasonably strong and useful at base level. Those that aren't are no worse than the straight-up useless ones from Aria. The serious problem with Dawn is that weapons are also tied to souls.

"Why," I've asked, "why don't they require the player to take his hand off the controls and draw a little picture with a stylus!?" Dawn finally - FINALLY - incorporates what every real fan's always wanted. The icing on the cake is that bosses look like this:

What's your point, that one of the bosses is ugly and you perform a little connect the dots game sometimes? Okay? At least the bosses are exciting. I can make strawman arguments too, watch:

This is the kind of thing that Aria calls a "boss."

PS the connect the dots game is fun and adds tension.

[Ed Oscuro]

Oooohhhhh, I see what you two are doing.

Ahaha. Non-BIL all time great Castlevania-related post here.

Speaking of Aria, my personal high point was on finding and exploring the mostest hidden area. It wasn't much of a payoff for the grind, but it was interesting for an hour or so.
I also like how the sequel continued to develop our favorite character, childish/creepy Hammer. Juiced...er, wrong game...J', Julius - did he do anything notable in this game? So much inertia in all departments. I find myself wondering if the development heads were restrained somewhat from breaking out of the SotN-style with drops and the like - we know from the coliseum mode that the idea of small stage segments that are replayable for time and glory must have entered the development heads' imagination at some point, but how far did they pursue it?

[Pretas]

Ecclesia's Training Hall is the high water mark of the post-Symphony IGAvanias. It's the closest flirtation IGA made with real stage design on par with the classic 8/16-bit Dracula games, as opposed to a collection of spacious, comfy rooms full of floaty, tension-free platforming and easily dispatched foes. Unfortunately, they made it an optional hidden area you'll probably never find without reading a guide, instead of properly integrating it into the castle and making its challenges mandatory for completion.

The Large Cavern area is also notable for its really cool Jiangshi boss, which can only be killed by grabbing its glyph during a very narrow and risky window.

Anyone ever tried Ore ga Omae wo Mamoru out of morbid curiosity? It's a shameless, no-budget IGAvania clone for DS by Idea Factory, aimed at girls. Look at how awful the map is.

[BIL]

I also like how the sequel continued to develop our favorite character, childish/creepy Hammer.

Ah yes - compelling stuff. My Japanese is a bit rusty, but I gather a moth ate all his hair and left him forever bald. :[

Ecclesia's Training Hall is the high water mark of the post-Symphony IGAvanias. It's the closest flirtation IGA made with real stage design on par with the classic 8/16-bit Dracula games, as opposed to a collection of spacious, comfy rooms full of floaty, tension-free platforming and easily dispatched foes. Unfortunately, they made it an optional hidden area you'll probably never find without reading a guide, instead of properly integrating it into the castle and making its challenges mandatory for completion.

I found 'em "Riddle" arrange BGM, OMG. Then I went back to kill Dracular and sold my 2DS to buy more Famicom games Planning to get back to it for sure.

Loved Ecclesia. I'll probably end up getting the intervening four games because reasons, but I'm happy with COTM+OOE bookending for now.

[BrianC]

I like all three of the GBA Castlevania games, despite their flaws (especially with HoD), though CotM is definitely my favorite. It's frustrating how barely any games actually developed by Konami reach the US, unless they are from Kojima productions.

[Pretas]

CotM is definitely the hardest GBA Dracula due to IGA and KCET's absence, but the DSS system is garbage, the stage layouts are almost uniformly dull and pedestrian, and the lacking audiovisuals make it feel like a doujin project (especially given that half the soundtrack is recycled classic tunes). There's also the weird absence of a shop or currency, even though you can pick up the same equipment more than once.

There isn't a single interesting enemy design outside of a couple of the bosses, either. It seems like every other monster is just a big, regular old bear, goat, praying mantis or something; or a cheap Halloween decoration like the Wizard of Oz witch enemies. Recolors are rampant, and much unlike the IGAvanias, there's almost no creative license taken with the bestiary even when compared to the 8-bit Draculas.

It's really obvious that CotM was made during the frenzy of the GBA's early life when every major publisher wanted to get all their flagship 2D franchises represented on it as fast as possible, with a minimum of effort or quality control applied. The Super Mario Advance games, the Breath of Fire ports, Link to the Past (GBA), Contra Advance and Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts (GBA) also came out of this.

[BrianC]

It's really obvious that CotM was made during the frenzy of the GBA's early life when every major publisher wanted to get all their flagship 2D franchises represented on it as fast as possible, with a minimum of effort or quality control applied. The Super Mario Advance games, the Breath of Fire ports, Link to the Past (GBA), Contra Advance and Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts (GBA) also came out of this.

I wouldn't lump Contra Advance with LttP, CotM, and the Super Mario Advance games. SMA4 wasn't exactly early life of GBA either.

[BIL]

Anyone ever tried Ore ga Omae wo Mamoru out of morbid curiosity? It's a shameless, no-budget IGAvania clone for DS by Idea Factory, aimed at girls. Look at how awful the map is.

Much better depictions of Soma, Julius and Yoko than DOS's for sure. Wait what's being implied here



Uh... well, even boilerplate BOYS RABU beats generic baldy rapeman!

the stage layouts are almost uniformly dull and pedestrian

I know, I love it! I just want to kill or be killed with dangerous monsters and nice sharp controls, not... abusing Pokemon, or whatever it is you're meant to be doing in HOD/AOS. And that is why COTM's Battle Arena is better level design than anything in the subsequent two games. I don't think it's even a notably hard game, it'll just kill you for being a bumbling scrub, or simply making a mistake. Refreshing.

No shop? No EZ item restocks?! Though I do think some kind of swap mart for all the excess gear you'll be lugging around would be neat. Like a hundred Leather Armours for one 20hp potion. How can you hate were-bears btw? I'd rather go toe-to-toe with a fucking grizzly that'll cleave your face off with one swipe than harass a poor zombie maid who's been cruelley watered down from her X68k prime.

It's really obvious that CotM was made during the frenzy of the GBA's early life when every major publisher wanted to get all their flagship 2D franchises represented on it as fast as possible, with a minimum of effort or quality control applied.

Nah. It handles much, much too sharply for this charge to stick. Someone on the dev team (executive producer my beloved Umechan, maybe?) wanted to make a solid action game, not merely cling to SOTN's coat-tails. Extra LOL @ bringing up Hard Spirits. Now there's a fundamentally broken bit of software dumped onto the new Nintendo portable. Doesn't control quite as badly as HOD, mind.