Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Bloodreign]

Played the MD Sailor Moon game on very hard, and how the hell are you supposed to 1 credit a game that moves so fast, that the enemies literally gang up on you before you can even do anything. I know Sailor Mercury is supposed to be the games weakest character, but damn, you can't even move to be able to grab enemies to throw them as the enemies move like the enemies in Double Dragon on the same console. You attempt to move up, they either swiftly jumpkick you before you can, or they move quickly to the same plane you do. The characters jumpkicks are also basically useless, most of the time not even connecting with the enemy as they scurry backwards, leaving you landing quite wide open and vulnerable.

[BIL]

Haven't played any of the Sailor Moon beltscrollers myself, but Skye wrote about the MD one here.

Oh shi - NU ERA OF TECHNOLOGY

I've edited the three index posts' subject lines to a keyword: "R2R_INDEX" (without the underscore). So, if you go to the forum search (or better yet, my profile's search) and type:

"Game Name" +R2R_INDEX (again, without the underscore), it'll pull up the game's index entry if it has one. I'll edit this info into the index title post. At some point. Procrastinating furiously.

As always with this little project, it's a bit jerry-rigged, but hopefully it'll be of some use. Particularly as it's March tomorrow and the index is gonna grow quite a bit over the next few weeks.

[Bloodreign]

I figured through playing all 3 beat em ups for Sailor Moon that the MD version is extremely overrated (Youtube goons swear this is the best Sailor Moon ever made, they are DEAD WRONG), it's good, but the mechanics in the SFC games feel better overall, and R doesn't really get cheap till late in the game, when those goons with thorns on their bodies, or the gooey women things that come out of the ground come along. The first SFC game gets hairy about stage 3, and that's when I kick the bucket and run out of continues, R is about stage 3 as well, but the stages in R are extremely long, so the playtime actually equals the playtime total of the first SFC and MD games.


Plus MD Sailor Moon is break the bank costly, while the 2 SFC games ran me under $30 cart only for both. I knew I wasn't crazy when I figured though the first SFC game is slower than the MD game, it actually plays far fairer than the MD game. The MD version I tend to play on it's hardest setting, because lord forbid I manage to get on a roll, the game has an extra boss, only accessible on hard mode (Queen Metallia). Of course that roll is stopped pretty quickly due to enemies that run through you like a bullet train. I see Skye also noticed that enemies head on have quite the advantage in reach over the poor Sailor Scouts (Venus has her chain, but it does little damage to enemies when used, guess to balance her out not to be too cheap, Mercury I read somewhere is supposed to be the weakest character, but she has a nice DDT/some kind of suplex in the SFC game she can pull off from her command grab, and it hits hard).


Edit: Sailor Moon R rocks, it has the speed of the MD version, but not the cheapness until late in the game, and even then not nearly as bad as the MD version for crowd control. You can actually stand a chance in it, though the electric prong carrying ladies, gooey women things, and thorny bastards will make sure you are miserable. The stage 2 raft ride is extreme fun, you can throw your enemies in the drink, and they don't come back, though new ones will then jump in. I actually managed to throw one right as another was trying to come in, double combo ( thrown airborne enemy hit another incoming airborne enemy, STRIKE!), both fell in the water.

[WelshMegalodon]

R is pretty great, isn't it? And I agree - while I initially found the Heavy Shades and Jaamanen to be most annoying enemies, the Avogadoras gave me a much harder time in the long run. That's one of the reasons Minako is the de facto best character - her chain bestows her with extremely safe Down + A attacks that allows her to take them out with ease. (Makoto's punch range and awesome damage output make her a close second.) The other three have a much harder time in general due to their shorter range - all enemies with holds deal massive damage, so with fewer safe means of approaching them a 1CC attempt with Rei, Ami, or Usagi are an uphill battle. Usagi in particular just seems to be a weak character all around, with little going for her other than a powerful screen-clearing super. It took me far longer for me to even get the 2CC with her than it did for me to do the same with Rei and Ami.

Spoiler

Seriously, what the fuck, Bandai?

Fuuraiki (the prong ladies) aren't too bad. It's easy to get on top of them after a knockdown, and if you stand far enough away on wakeup you can counter their (extremely damaging) jump-in with your Jump + Attack special every single time.

As discussed before, the Mega Drive game is as janky as they come, even if it does look a little more impressive than the other two due to the larger sprites, and the first SFC game has okay mechanics but seriously stupid boss hitboxes (is it even possible to hit Red Battler without being mauled by his claws?)

I have a Snes9x input file of my Makoto 1CC if anyone is interested in seeing it. It isn't a perfect run, but I think it does a fair job of showing off the game's strengths. I've been meaning to record one with Minako as well, though I'd need to polish my approach with her a bit more first.

One thing I'm still trying to figure out in this game is how extends are awarded - not an easy task for a game without a visible score. The various items have scores values detailed in at least one strategy guide, and there are items that serve no purpose other than to raise score, so I know the game keeps track of it. You can consistently receive an extra life in the first half of Stage 1 with competent play and another one in the first half of Stage 2, but it's spotty after that - the most I've ever managed was 7 lives as Minako with the seventh being awarded in the second half of Stage 3, though I can't get it to happen consistently. In Chibiusa mode, I never amassed more than 6 lives despite never dying and barely taking any damage.

Haven't played any of the Sailor Moon beltscrollers myself, but Skye wrote about the MD one here.

Friendly reminder that I have a few posts on R scattered about myself.

[bottino]

Also helps that like all Technos brawlers, it's got them BEEFY HITZ

Outboxing Jeffs and Bobos with staple off-axis tactics is most satisfactory artful violence.

Spoiler

^ Right leg hospital. Left leg cemetery.

Spoiler

^ Noob fucks don't know about my footwork!

This resumes nicely the reasons why I like those two games so much: the upmost importance of footwork, spacing and timing when dealing with those dangerous thugs - so satisfying to pull off, and hear the results of it!

Still need to work on my DD2AC 1CC though...

A shame that, AFAIK, only two games followed up this formula successfully: Technos own excellent Double Dragon Advance and Konami's Vendetta - the rest mostly went the Capcom-style route following the success of Final Fight.

[Bloodreign]

You aren't just imagining it Welsh, the first boss in the first SFC game does have a broken hitbox, another one is when one of the bosses turns into Sailor Moon, and is extremely hard to hit.

[__SKYe]

It had been a while since I last played any of them and I was intrigued by the extra boss you just mentioned so I played a few credits on both the MD and the SFC games. My post comparing the two (linked by BIL) is also in need of an update anyway.

A few things before continuing:

• I'm assuming that by Very Hard you mean むずかしい.
• I've played all runs with Usagi. Things may be different with the other characters.

I'll list the differences first.

Aesthetics / Misc

• You can't skip the pre-level cutscenes on the SFC (on the MD they can be skipped by pressing the start button).
• There's a gauge for the special attack on the SFC but not on the MD (charged by holding the attack button).

Moveset

• There's no running jump kick on the SFC (you don't actually run on the MD, but the jump is much larger if you double tap forward before jumping).
• There's no dedicated button for the desperation move on the SFC (it is performed by pressing Jump+Attack simultaneous).
• Using the desperation move always damages your character in the MD game; on the SFC you only take damage if the move hits an enemy.
• On the MD you will fail to jump if you press the jump button right after turning around. No such issue on the SFC.

Gameplay

• The MD game has significantly faster gameplay (similar to Street Fighter II: World Warrior vs SFII: Hyper Fighting).
• You cannot scroll the screen back on the SFC. This is what gives the apparent larger play area on the MD.
• Heavier damage from enemies on the SFC. A standard attack damages you for 1/10 HP and it is very common to take 2~3 hits in a row. On the MD many attacks do very little damage, even on Hard (eg. The final boss' lightning attacks). [-]
• Your health gets restored at the start of a new level section (wherever there's a fade in/out) on the MD but not on the SFC.
• There are items that increase your life bar on the MD. There are none on the SFC.
• On the first few bosses you get a full health restorative on the MD but not on the SFC (the rose item).
• Enemies have considerable i-frames on knockdown on the MD but not on the SFC. You can hit enemies as they are getting up on the SFC, though some of them can hit you before you score a hit on them due to your low attack speed (ie. The harlequin enemies). Bosses have substantial i-frames on knockdown on both games.
• Enemies stay in hitstun longer on the MD than in the SFC.
• Bosses have helper enemies on the SFC but not on the MD (not all bosses; when they do there are always two enemies and no more).
• If an enemy's sprite is overlapping your character's sprite you can't hit them on the MD but you can on the SFC.

Besides those, there are some things worth noting that are not differences per se, but rather, they arise from some of the differences outlined above.

About grabs:

• The SFC game is considerably smoother when it comes to grabs compared to the MD game, but it actually stems from one of the differences above, namely the difference in enemies' hitstun. The problem is that you can't grab enemies while they are in hitstun, and since it is longer in the MD version you notice it a lot more, which makes it seem like the game is finicky in that regard. In the SFC game you mostly only notice it when performing late Jump+Down+Attack moves and attempting to grab the enemy after you land, which is essentially the same thing that happens in R.
  This means that the only useful way you can perform grabs in the MD game is to approach enemies from the vertical plane, which is ineloquently touched on in my old post.

About Throws:

• One of the blemishes on the SFC game, which I think is rather nice otherwise, is that thrown enemies do not hit other enemies that are close to you (on most occasions). You are invulnerable while throwing, but since any enemy you throw will just go over whatever enemy is close to you, you invariably end up getting hit. This mostly kills any crowd control you would otherwise get from this move which makes it much less useful overall.

Other things more related to strategy/gameplay quirks:

• On the SFC game enemies will continue to attack while you are down, which can lead to some hairy situations if you happen to get knocked down near the edges of the screen because you will immediately get hit the moment you get up. This happens both against standard enemies and bosses.

• As for the apparent weird boss hitboxes on the SFC game, I suspect it is because some of the bosses have lower hitstun and are invulnerable when attacking. You'll notice that if you try to land a standard combo on them, the first few attacks will usually hit but the finisher will not, and you will get hit yourself. My guess is that the finisher has a longer wind up and it allows them to enter their attack phase making them invulnerable.

• The clone boss that BloodReign mentioned is indeed hard to hit, but only if you try to chase her down. If you try to out-range her (or the first boss) you'll have a lot of trouble. You can fairly easily beat her by doing the following:
  
  Spoiler

  First, knock her down once. Then, while she is down, get close to her but not on her lane. She will get up and immediately perform a kick (and miss, if you aren't in front of her) and then a small jump, and you can follow her and hit her as soon as she lands. Repeat.

-----

I've probably forgotten some things, but I'll edit them in later if necessary.

@BloodReign: As for your original point on MD's Hard Mode, I don't really have a strategy. I managed a 2CC on my second run, but it was mostly an ad-hoc approach. A few sections are particularly brutal (the top of the trucks, the clown duo on the last stage, etc) and mostly because they are very constrained in the vertical plane. When/if I end up 1CCing it, I'll try to write something a bit more useful.

-----

Regarding the index; game-progress type of posts ("here's what I'm currently playing and what I discovered/think") are one of the things I most enjoy writing, but they are not very good for archival purposes. Besides, as evidenced by my post that BIL linked, plenty of what I've written is either outdated, incomplete or just plain wrong (never mind the misspellings, weird phrasing, etc). Even the reviews/guides aren't very good, and I want to remedy that.

I'm thinking of creating a single post per game with all the info that is spread all over my posts. This allows me to edit the posts at will as more/better info become available, and should also make the indexing easier. I also want to start implementing some of the stuff that Randorama proposed way back, regarding 'games worth playing'. I don't know how it will turn out, but it's an iterative process.

I'd like to leave the old posts alone, though, to leave this thread's history intact, and was thinking of creating new posts if it's alright, BIL. I don't wanna give you even more work.
If it is OK, then don't worry about indexing any more of my posts; I'll start compiling the stuff over the next few weeks (hopefully) and I'll let you know when there's anything to add to the index.

-----

TODO: Verify enemy damage on the MD game and check for mistakes.
TODO: Make GIFs of a few of the above points to make them more clear.

[WelshMegalodon]

A few more points about MD Moon:

- I feel like enemies almost always got hits in on wakeup when you were on top of them trying to start a combo. That and the longer hitstun making jump-ins a bad idea result in a less interesting game overall.

- It is in fact possible to hit enemies while their sprites are overlapping with yours. I think I might have actually hit an enemy behind me with a standard combo once.

- Since __SKYe didn't mention it, I'd like to add that each character also has at least one unique move that they can execute in addition to their standard moveset. Ami, for example, has a flying uppercut that's a decent addition to her arsenal, and Makoto has a throw that resembles Ninja's spinning throw from TNWA. So you get a little more variety in that respect. There's a list of inputs on GameFAQS, but after some testing I'm beginning to doubt its accuracy.

- Choosing Minako in either this game or the first SFC title is generally a poor choice since she basically plays like a 2D Simon Belmont in a 3D space, but her neutral throw looks a lot like Ken's throw from Street Fighter II, which is kind of neat.

- Makoto's spinning throw is pretty great. You can extend the duration of the throw to take off nearly an entire bar of health, sometimes the entire bar, though it gets kind of tedious after a while.

I would have to agree on it being the weakest of the three belt scrollers. The fact that you get a full healthbar at the beginning of every segment is pretty telling...

[Bloodreign]

I've been told for ages that the MD Sailor Moon is better, but after reading some of this info provided in this thread, and page, I am doubting it now. The SFC may be a slower game, but it seems to be a little better mechanically, and most much fairer to play (I've tried explaining that on Youtube videos where people proclaim the MD version is better. Yes it's still a good game, but it plays like a mess). I like being able to have a chance to defeat the enemies in the game, not get swarmed with no chance of getting out intact. I wish there was a like or rep button (like at Sega-16 forums) for valuable info that has been provided on the MD and SFC Sailor Moon games on this page in this thread.


And yes, I played all 3 versions on むずかしい mode.

[__SKYe]

- Since __SKYe didn't mention it, I'd like to add that each character also has at least one unique move that they can execute in addition to their standard moveset. Ami, for example, has a flying uppercut that's a decent addition to her arsenal, and Makoto has a throw that resembles Ninja's spinning throw from TNWA. So you get a little more variety in that respect. There's a list of inputs on GameFAQS, but after some testing I'm beginning to doubt its accuracy.

Ah, thanks Welsh, I completely glossed over this.

- I feel like enemies almost always got hits in on wakeup when you were on top of them trying to start a combo. That and the longer hitstun making jump-ins a bad idea result in a less interesting game overall.

On the MD game I'm not sure I ever got a hit on an enemy on their wakeup frames. Usagi has a farily slow attack speed though, so it might be different for the other characters. On the SFC side, only the harlequins always hit you with a low kick before you're able to land a hit, and occasionally the standard mooks as well, but again, I'm chalking that one up to Usagi's low attack speed.

- It is in fact possible to hit enemies while their sprites are overlapping with yours. I think I might have actually hit an enemy behind me with a standard combo once.

There were several times where I was landing a combo on an enemy that was very close and completely missed the last hit because the enemy was overlapping my characte (Usagi moves forward a bit when executing the last hit). I've never hit an enemy behind me that I can remember, though. Maybe it depends on how much the sprites overlap. I'll have to check it more thoroughly.

I would have to agree on it being the weakest of the three belt scrollers. The fact that you get a full healthbar at the beginning of every segment is pretty telling...

Yup, the SFC game is considerably more fun to play overall. The MD got the aesthetics right (partly due to the consoles capabilities) but suffers on the gameplay side. The SFC version could be a bit faster, though.

I've been told for ages that the MD Sailor Moon is better, but after reading some of this info provided in this thread, and page, I am doubting it now.

The only way I can see someone prefering the MD version is if they judge mostly by the aesthetics and don't delve too deep into the gameplay, because it quickly becomes apparent that the other is superior, IMO. Especially if you throw R into the mix.

[Udderdude]

New Castlevania-ish looking 2D game came out recently. Looks pretty good. https://store.steampowered.com/app/1189 ... f_Dracula/

[WelshMegalodon]

I've been told for ages that the MD Sailor Moon is better, but after reading some of this info provided in this thread, and page, I am doubting it now. The SFC may be a slower game, but it seems to be a little better mechanically, and most much fairer to play (I've tried explaining that on Youtube videos where people proclaim the MD version is better. Yes it's still a good game, but it plays like a mess). I like being able to have a chance to defeat the enemies in the game, not get swarmed with no chance of getting out intact. I wish there was a like or rep button (like at Sega-16 forums) for valuable info that has been provided on the MD and SFC Sailor Moon games on this page in this thread.

I can see how MD Moon might leave a better first impression - the game is faster, sprites are bigger and slightly better animated, there are cutscenes, and characters have more options like the super jump or Rei's Screw Upper, even if those options aren't always useful. The people who prefer it to the SFC games are probably focusing on different things.

EDIT: MD Moon's Stage 1 boss is also much easier to defeat than Red Battler is and does not have a weird BS hitbox. (Seriously, get a hitbox viewer on that guy.)

EDIT 2: Expanding on what __SKYe said about throws in the first SFC game, Usagi's and Rei's are pretty poor for crowd control since they fling their enemies up high, but Makoto's is great since it actually slams the enemy into the ground, hitting everyone behind her and then some. Makoto also has a second throw executed by simply pressing Attack while holding an enemy that resembles her spinning throw from MD Moon, though you can't extend its duration like you can in that game, and Ami has a suplex-like move, which is hilarious given her status as the "weak" member of the group.

This is yet another reason to avoid using Minako in the first SFC game, by the way - she is unable to combo into a throw like the others.

EDIT 3: And... both games have infinites.

Death by stunlock

Truly bullshit hitboxes

[Bassa-Bassa]

I could've sworn he mentioned a brutal time limit in either RT1 or RT2, assuming I'm not mixing it up with his comment on Double Dragon II AC's fairly stingy ones.

The 150 seconds limiter forces players to skip ammo rooms on stages 8 and 10. This is not an issue if the player has stocked up ammo until those points. Both stages can be completed with a few seconds remaining insofar as the player also does not get stuck in dealing with some key enemies (bats, guys throwing grenades). In other words: in some spots, the player must stop 1-2 seconds and dispatch certain enemies. For the rest of the stage, stopping means running out of time, period.

The 120 seconds limiter simply forces players to respawn and deal with stages that can be tricky on a low ammo count. I do not honestly see how these stages could be completed on 120 secs. The hack behind the version seems to follow the principle of "let's see how you deal with dreadful restarting points" (well, not dreadful but certainly unpleasant).

Do you mean that the 120s version is a hack and the 150s version is the official one?

[Randorama]

Do you mean that the 120s version is a hack and the 150s version is the official one?

Quick answer: I think so, and probably MAME does contain more information. I remember that the 120s one is reported as a "hack" or bootleg (cannot open the program now). I certainly never remember seeing it in the arcades, and I do remember seeing the 180s and 150s versions (the 150s should be the "new" version, if memory serves).

[WelshMegalodon]

MD Moon's infinites are pretty powerful. Usagi, Ami, and Rei all have them! If you're careful enough to break them off before getting surrounded, you can breeze through large portions of the game and lay waste to any of the bosses before they can get in a single hit.

Except for Metalia. I'm not sure it's even possible to defeat Metalia without losing a life.

[Bloodreign]

You can hitstun the MD versions bosses into oblivion, since they don't tend to bring help. You can do the same with the SFC versions bosses too, but they tend to bring fodder along with them, so you can't waste their entire lifebar with some patience and endless hit stun combos because their little enemy friends tend to help them by coming after you.


Edit: Welsh, you should upload your Sailor Moon runs to Youtube, I'd watch them that way.
Edit 2: I have a laugh off how the transformation sequences for the MD game are totally wrong, that background setting should be for Sailor Moon R, evident by how the SFC version of R uses it for transformation background, stage eyecatch intro, and the TV series used it for commercial eyecatches for R.

[Marc]

Played a few credits of Strider over the weekend. I think for me, its ambition outweighs its execution. It’s a stylish game no doubt, but it all feels a tiny bit rough and unfinished – there are sections when I can see what the designers intended, but the odd cack-handed interaction with the scenery can screw you. Plus there were a few more odd almost-bugs I don’t remember (a guard on ST1 that dropped straight from the top of the screen to the bottom and hit me, the little robots after the gorilla on ST2 kept respawning, and more than once, on the journey to the ST2 airship, I’ve been hit and dropped straight through my little ship and off the bottom instead of being knocked sideways), but I’m playing on the Home Arcade so I’m not sure if there are any emulation issues?

Also Ghouls ‘n’ Ghosts. Screw that game.

[WelshMegalodon]

If I remember correctly, the Capcom Home Arcade uses the libretro port of Final Burn Neo, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were bugs in the emulation.

[Sumez]

Played a few credits of Strider over the weekend. I think for me, its ambition outweighs its execution.

Yeah Strider is a li...

Also Ghouls ‘n’ Ghosts. Screw that game.

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[BrianC]

If I remember correctly, the Capcom Home Arcade uses the libretro port of Final Burn Neo, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were bugs in the emulation.

You mean final burn alpha? Neo was made because the person who approved of this thing did so without the other developers' permission. I wouldn't be surprised if they used one of the earlier US or International revs of Strider. I remember reading here that there was something wrong with one of the western revisions compared to the JP version?

[WelshMegalodon]

My bad, yes, it was Alpha.

[BIL]

Strider Hiryu is fairly glitchy even on real hardware. It's not broken or anything, but you'll see weird shit happen on a far more regular basis than its contemporary Daimakaimura. Price of all those variable footing and climbing states. Worst offender by far is the Ouroboros mkII ride to Meiou, very easy to get trapdoored through his segments.

The PS1 conversion that makes up one-half of Strider Hiryu 1 & 2 was handled by ex-DECO staff. Besides being highly accurate (has the Option lifebar exploit, and even the hidden stage 1 BGM), it's significantly tightened up. You can actively try to fall through Ouroboros, won't happen. Also has no slowdown or sprite breakup - looks spectacular in the formerly-chuggy scenes like st4-2's dinosaur valley. The PCB's vividly brutal death animations and explosions really shine (poor Solo, blasted clean out of his socks). They also got rid of that speck of sprite garbage you can see in Hiryu's "Steep Slope Striders" walk cycle, now that's attention to detail.

Drawbacks are short inter-stage load times, which IIRC you can chop down to near-nothing with the PS2's fast loading, and a couple of new glitches, the major one making it much easier to die by ring-out on the Gravity Core bosses. However it's 100% consistent and simple to avoid.

EDIT: beat the game for stage select (handy for practicing stunts!) and bonus palettes (including badass black ninja, immaculate white, and Dan Hibiki pink!). Also allows a dedicated slide button and custom autofire speed. It's a superb job, far moreso than you might think with the US release relegating it to Strider 2's bonus disc.

Nothing about this changes the reality that Strider's a pretty unforgiving, strictured game. 90% of it is easy enough for improv, but stage 5's thorny setpieces will unavoidably rough you up (including the infamously bullshit Offscreen Machingunner, and Gravity Core mkII's invisible double-KO... shoulda put a bar at the bottom of that shaft for an Empire Strikes Back-style save, especially with Meiou's Palpatine-blagging design! oh well).

Like any good action game in this choreographic mode, the performance ceiling goes way beyond mere survival. You can turn in some spectacularly audacious performances once you've learned the ropes, and the rollicking direction and super-tight runtime make it eminently revisitable. I rank it behind more volatile challenges like Dai and Saigo, and less strictured ninja action like Shinobi and Rygar*, but I'd absolutely mention it in the same company. One of action gaming's finest "interactive movies." *Rygar's a prehistoric ninja, best death from above game in the business.

I remember reading here that there was something wrong with one of the western revisions compared to the JP version?

One of the PCB revisions has significantly fewer music tracks than the one that's the basis of the MD and PS1 conversions. Offhand, it re-uses the stage 1 BGM "Raid!" pretty blatantly. Can't recall anything amiss about the gameplay, though.

I'd like to leave the old posts alone, though, to leave this thread's history intact, and was thinking of creating new posts if it's alright, BIL. I don't wanna give you even more work.
If it is OK, then don't worry about indexing any more of my posts; I'll start compiling the stuff over the next few weeks (hopefully) and I'll let you know when there's anything to add to the index.

No worries, anything you guys decide will be fine. I need to give this thread a proper page-by-page readthrough - planning on having it done by the end of the month. Up until now it's been 90% memory. Already got at least three new entries just looking up old info for this post, haha.

[Sumez]

Accidentally managed to clear Karnov off-stream yesterday.
Will make a recording later and do a write-up.

Some people might recall that I was using the Karnov sprite as profile picture for a long time around here, and it's a game that's very dear to my heart for some reason (I'm not really sure it's a good game).
This is another arcade game that's fairly easy to beat once you know the ropes, but it actually took me longer to get the 1CC than both Moo Mesa and Black Tiger combined.

[Marc]

Played a few credits of Strider over the weekend. I think for me, its ambition outweighs its execution.

Yeah Strider is a li...

Also Ghouls ‘n’ Ghosts. Screw that game.

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Ha sorry man, I do love it really, but I'm completely out of practise, and it's totally unforgiving.
it's funny actually, I never owned a MD, but when someone mentions an arcade game, and I think 'oh, I cleared that back in the day', on further reflection it usually turns out to have been the MD version. I had a friend back when I was 13-15 who got bought a game by his parents every few weeks - unheard of to me due to the cost of them. We used to rip through them at a decent pace, thinking back it's funny how much easier it is to deconstruct a given title's foibles when you're sat with another person. I know I never finished this, but I made it most of the way, and it's quite depressing now to struggle so badly with it!

[mycophobia]

damn psx strider sounds great

[BIL]

And by total coincidence, my copy is up for sale!

Haha jk. If I'm talking something up it's cos its MINE MINE MINE (■｀W´■)

(that's Dr. Biruford's NO FLIP GUARANTEE) （＾ω´ ）

This resumes nicely the reasons why I like those two games so much: the upmost importance of footwork, spacing and timing when dealing with those dangerous thugs - so satisfying to pull off, and hear the results of it!

Still need to work on my DD2AC 1CC though...

A shame that, AFAIK, only two games followed up this formula successfully: Technos own excellent Double Dragon Advance and Konami's Vendetta - the rest mostly went the Capcom-style route following the success of Final Fight.

Incidentally, have you played AKI's N64 wrestling games? Like a lot of sports (or "sports" ) series, they went through many iterations, bewildering on paper... but basically, all you need is the superlative Virtual Pro Wrestling 2. (and a translation FAQ, easily found on GameFAQs - the game enjoys a hardcore fan following to this day) Explosive, incendiary, barely-controllable burning ardour within! plus marginally more coherent details (CTRL+F "Human")

Mentioning, as it totally captures those classic Technos dynamics of timing, spacing, and hard-earned god-almighty knockouts. The wrasslin' format puts it more in Kunio's sports/action sphere, but just like those games, the engine could easily support a dedicated brawler. Sadly the CPU is pretty dumb 1v1 - just like Kunio's sportsballers, they're alright in battle royales, but you need company to see the game's real excellence.

It's genuinely one of the best syntheses I've ever seen of party/hardcore brawling... a snap to pick up, but if a noob takes on a vet, the only snap is gonna be accompanied by a frenzied tapout. (ah man, that *crack* "YEARGH!" submission sample is arcade Golden Axe-haunting. Can support raucous battle royales, bitter 1v1 bloodbaths and anything between.

AKI were a splinter group from Human Entertainment, creators of the similarly acclaimed Fire Pro series (and Super Stylish SFC Seek/Destroy TEH FIREMEN ). It wouldn't surprise me if these guys were fans of (or even worked on) the Technos beatdown that predates even Kunio, Exciting Hour aka Mat Mania. Either way, they are hardcore, and so is VPW2!

[Marc]

From memory, WCW vs NWO was my absolute fave. Details escape me, but I think the WWF games that came after over-complicated things a little. One thing I do remember is thinking that the running grapple ruined the flow of matches a bit - but it's been such a long time since I played one of these that I'm not sure if that's a legit complaint.

I've never played a Fire Pro, but World on PS4 regularly drops to under £20 now so I know I'll end up biting.

[BIL]

Running Grapples are the #1 reason I could never go back to the WCW-era games. They're the final puzzle piece AKI needed for a really compelling head-to-head game, imo. Without them, a blocking player is completely invincible against a running opponent. Just hold [R] and that's that. Running is a blast for blindsiding the unaware in battle royales, but 1v1 it's a cul-de-sac.

With running grapples, the attacker gains a mixup, and the defender has to actively defend, with both sharing the risk/reward of a tide-turning counter. Block/catch on [R], duck/break on [L], counter-strike/grapple on [B/A] respectively... the defender may also choose to leave the once-invincible fortress with a pre-emptive dash of their own, allowing the go-behind on [L] and roll on [R] in addition to an outright counter-strike.

It's a much more volatile, incentivising scenario than simply walling up. It makes the already-seething hotbeds of betrayal and opportunism that are battle royales even wickeder too!



For a long time, I was torn between No Mercy (running grapples... with boggy 4P framerate) and Wrestlemania 2000 (sharp 4P framerate... with no running grapple). So VPW2's combining of both was an absolute revelation, reignited my love of the series. Having the luxury of a small circle of old friends, all of us concurred we'd have imported this in a heartbeat BITD.

The only thing VPW2 loses out on is No Mercy's backstage/"hardcore" content, but I never really cared for that, and it has its own edge with the MMA mode. Which honestly, I'm surprised Asmik didn't package and sell as its own game. You can even mix/match the PURO and MMA engines! Plus the Create-A-Wrestler has the entire moveset from the earlier games, WCW and all, and can create basically any competitor past/present (I don't care about post-90s wrasslin, I'm all about the old 80s badasses like Stan Hansen and Vader... both of whom are in VPW2 by default )

"A cornered fox... is more dangerous than a jackal!"

Spoiler

*DING*

"BAH GAWD KANG VADER IS BROKE IN HAFF"

Spoiler

Man I need to make some new GIFs. Ghetto printscreened those last two, the framerate in-game is silky-smooth!

Fucking lmao, now I'm remembering those lame Iguana games with the big selling point of sampled commentary... THATS WHAT YOUR BUDS ARE FOR FFS

[Blinge]

The AKI engine was so fucking good!!!!

I'll never forget that time we did a 4 player royal rumble on WWF No Mercy..
and I started as Cactus Jack...
.. and won with Cactus Jack. BANGBANG

my friends would later refer to the event as the "half hour of pain."
They couldn't get me out of there!

[BIL]

That reminds me of NM's finest innovation, the LADDER MATCH. Specifically a three-way ladder match... the scope for treachery is mind-boggling, alliances rising and falling more brutally than the broken bodies of the wrasslers.