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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:16 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
What game is that? :O


Master Race Ninja Gaiden II :cool:
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:18 pm 


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__SKYe wrote:
Sumez wrote:
What game is that? :O


Ninja Gaiden II DOS. :mrgreen:


Oh my "what the..."! :O I had no idea that even existed! I'm flabbergasted! PCE Ninja Ryukenden GO HOME!

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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:22 pm 


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Man, console games ran circles around PC games in the NES era. Scrolling seems much more hard to implement on PC(I think those early PC cards didn't have any hardware scrolling?)

Keen is alright, but it's 1991... and was the exception. You had NES games in 1986 that were scrolling in all direction and at a crazy pace.
Looks like back then PC gamers couldn't tell us console third-worlders faggots to "kys" :(


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:29 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
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At least Google got the description of the genre somewhat right in your search -- mine is downright useless. :lol:

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FinalBaton wrote:
Man, console games ran circles around PC games in the NES era. Scrolling seems much more hard to implement on PC(I think those early PC cards didn't have any hardware scrolling?)


Nope, Carmack achieved smooth scrolling first in 1990 with Commander Keen.
Fun story: the guys that would form id Software, first did a complete copy of SMB3's first level and presented it to Nintendo, showing it was possible to do NES quality scrolling (back then the most important thing PC games lacked) and gameplay on the PC. Nintendo declined, saying they weren't interested in entering the PC market, which led soon-to-be-id to create the first Keen game and starting id Sotfware's (and theirs) career.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:40 pm 


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Carmack was a coding wizard, for sure. Still, Keene isn't nearly as impressive as Super Mario Brothers, from 1985

It's really the advent of the VGA card that propelled PC games forward


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:01 pm 


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Yeah, but remember that PCs back then did everything in CPU -- no graphics hardware to shovel sprites or help with scrolling.
The fact that he managed do smooth multidirectional scrolling back then is pretty damn amazing.

FinalBaton wrote:
It's really the advent of the VGA card that propelled PC games forward


No doubt there. Especially later, when hardware T&L arrived.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:03 pm 


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As I said : he was a coding wizard ^_^ head and shoulders above the rest


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:06 pm 


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__SKYe wrote:
Fun story: the guys that would form id Software, first did a complete copy of SMB3's first level and presented it to Nintendo, showing it was possible to do NES quality scrolling (back then the most important thing PC games lacked) and gameplay on the PC. Nintendo declined, saying they weren't interested in entering the PC market, which led soon-to-be-id to create the first Keen game and starting id Sotfware's (and theirs) career.


I'd totally forgotten about this. :o Very cool... and no wonder Keen stuck out in my mind. They really were strutting their stuff with that one.

Sometimes I even forget it was an id property. I almost feel bad about murdering him repeatedly in DOOM II now - he was our guy, just trying to make it in a cruel FPS world! :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:20 pm 


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Yeah. When it comes to id's history, there's no better reference than Masters Of Doom. I've read through it twice over the years, and loved doing so each time. There's also a lot beyond id, chiefly following both Johns' (Carmack and Romero) careers, up to the pre-Doom 3 era. Great read. :wink:

BIL wrote:
Sometimes I even forget it was an id property. I almost feel bad about murdering him repeatedly in DOOM II now - he was our guy, just trying to make it in a cruel FPS world! :lol:


After they went 3D tough (starting as early as Hovertank/Catacombs but most famously by Wolfenstein 3D) they never steered from that path. Though it is hardly fair to pick on them for staying in their best genre, since so many companies do too. From what I read in the book, it mostly came down to Carmack coming up with a new engine and the rest of the team turning it into a game (licensing to other companies as well, of course). Times were tough later on the company's life (around the Quake era, where the other guys wanted Quake to be an RPG), eventually leading to Tom Hall and Romero's being fired (which led them, with some others, to create Ion Storm).


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:21 pm 


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__SKYe wrote:
Yeah. When it comes to id's history, there's no better reference than Masters Of Doom. I've read through it twice over the years, and loved doing so each time. There's also a lot beyond id, chiefly following both Johns' (Carmack and Romero) careers, up to the pre-Doom 3 era. Great read.

Yeah, I was surprised how much I enjoyed Masters of Doom. I listened to the audiobook and it was really engaging. Also quite nostalgic... I think I was 12-13 when Doom came out? As a kid it was a great time because these games didn't have the stench of the "pro gamer" about them and all that goes with that. Maybe I just didn't know the right people, but I'd play dialup with my friends, no one was very good, and it just didnt have that toxic post-counterstrike/CoD seriousness to it. Back when I still loved FPSes, hehe... /offtopic
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:41 pm 


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__SKYe wrote:
Times were tough later on the company's life (around the Quake era, where the other guys wanted Quake to be an RPG), eventually leading to Tom Hall and Romero's being fired (which led them, with some others, to create Ion Storm).


I remember reading at one point, the original Quake was planned to be a fighting game?


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:11 pm 


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I believe Quake was originally intended as an RPG.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:20 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
I believe Quake was originally intended as an RPG.


I'm not saying it wasn't, but an early preview I read of Quake suggested that it was going to be a 3D fighting game ala Quake III.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:24 pm 


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BIL wrote:
Sometimes I even forget it was an id property. I almost feel bad about murdering him repeatedly in DOOM II now - he was our guy, just trying to make it in a cruel FPS world! :lol:

The severed head hidden in the Icon of Sin is Romero, not Carmack.

Re: some of the stuff above, yes, Quake was intended to be a melee-oriented first-person RPG, but they realized it would be impossible to do something with that big of a scope with how lazy Romero had gotten at that point. Also, Tom Hall was fired during the development of Doom, not Quake.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:46 pm 


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Obscura wrote:
Quake was intended to be a melee-oriented first-person RPG, but they realized it would be impossible to do something with that big of a scope with how lazy Romero had gotten at that point.


... I've never heard that perspective before. The way I've heard the story told is simply that they took what they thought worked best from the game and focused on that, trashing the stuff that didn't work, and ended up doing a much more focused game, which I'm sure turned out for the better. Very similar to how they ended up scrapping all of the cutscenes and story telling aspects to Doom that particularly Tom Hall was pushing on getting in there.

While I appreciate the more streamlined games we ended up with, it's interesting to think about the standard it ended up setting for the genre, making it almost unbelievable to people that an FPS could have storytelling until Half-Life supposedly "revolutionized" the genre. ( :cry: )


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:52 pm 


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Eh, plenty of people knew FPSs could have great storytelling before Half-Life; people who actually played games already knew about Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Strife, Unreal, Thief, etc. All Half-Life did was get people who weren't gamers to try a FPS. The story-driven FPSs were around from the genre's start; it's arguable that the Doom/Quake clones were the outliers.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:55 pm 


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That's basically my point. Doom and Quake were the ones that everyone knew. Safe to say though that they are also much more accomplished "first person shooters" than System Shock anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:58 pm 


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Eh, I think you're dismissing System Shock too quickly. That game did a lot of really neat things, and was mechanically ahead of Doom in a lot of ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:02 pm 


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Love all those FPS games, but not to downplay Half-life's immersion, events, and continuous narrative. It did a lot for the genre. People perhaps give it too much credit and skip those earlier titles (all the people I personally know do, to name a few, and it's immensely frustrating), but I don't think it deserves being pushed under the rug like it was nothing.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:26 pm 


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Obscura wrote:
Also, Tom Hall was fired during the development of Doom, not Quake.


I know, I just meant to say that they both got fired, and later Romero approached (and reconnected with) Tom Hall to form their own company (Ion Storm).

Sumez wrote:
Obscura wrote:
Quake was intended to be a melee-oriented first-person RPG, but they realized it would be impossible to do something with that big of a scope with how lazy Romero had gotten at that point.


... I've never heard that perspective before. The way I've heard the story told is simply that they took what they thought worked best from the game and focused on that, trashing the stuff that didn't work, and ended up doing a much more focused game, which I'm sure turned out for the better. Very similar to how they ended up scrapping all of the cutscenes and story telling aspects to Doom that particularly Tom Hall was pushing on getting in there.


It's been a while since I last read the book last, but I'm fairly certain that is was Carmack who said that they would do an FPS instead, and given that he was the one who make the tech, his word was basically law, and they were forced to ditch much of the stuff they had already produced until then. This sort of situation happened a few more times throughout the years, with Quake 2, 3 and Doom 3 as well. Before that, Quake was meant to be an RPG, like it has been said (Quake was Romero's character in the D&D games the id guys had been playing for years).
Like Sumez says, a similar thing led to Tom Hall getting fired -- he always wanted to return to the Keen series, which was his baby, and even had a massive design document, but the other guys weren't too inclined to go in that direction (especially Adrian Carmack, who never likes the kiddy stuff). The scrapping of his work for Doom just further led to that result.

Anyway, enough thread derailing from my part. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:01 pm 


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Achievement Unlocked: Kung Fu Master Mage Molestation

I tested this and it works.

Walk out passed the pillar and inch forward until he copies himself. Once he copies himself all you have to do is walk forward.

The trailing mage's walk speed is too slow to keep up and the actual boss will back up to the stairs sans protest.

Let the beatings begin.

EDIT - Suck it 2-4 mage. Reached 3-2.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:07 am 


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Obscura wrote:
BIL wrote:
Sometimes I even forget it was an id property. I almost feel bad about murdering him repeatedly in DOOM II now - he was our guy, just trying to make it in a cruel FPS world! :lol:

The severed head hidden in the Icon of Sin is Romero, not Carmack.


I'm talking about repeatedly murdering Commander Keen. :shock: You know, four of him to slaughter before you can leave the secret maps.

I know who Romero and Carmack are, I lived through Daikatana's ad campaign. :wink:
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:37 am 


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FinalBaton wrote:
It's really the advent of the VGA card that propelled PC games forward


There were decent PC games in the CGA and EGA days, just not the kind that most people here would be interested in playing. Stuff like Starflight and the King's Quest games, in addition to microcomputer ports like Might & Magic. On the Macintosh side, we have, I dunno... Uninvited?

The DOS ports of Thexder and Silpheed were also released without VGA support, although it was technically around by then.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:08 am 


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Jesus christ, Murasamejou doesn't fuck around, it just keeps getting harder. I'm only playing in short sessions, credit feeding like a motherfucker, and making good use of the built in save feature. Yesterday I had just enough time to beat stage three and make it to the fourth castle.

It's funny, because watching people who play the game well (speedrunners mostly, as I can't seem to find any genuine "casual" 1cc's), they just rush through the game and make it look super easy. Knowledge of stage layouts is definitely alpha and omega (but I want to play my first playthrough completely blind). Struggled with the third castle over and over again until I finally ended up making it to the boss without any lives lost.

Had a real problem with the "fire ninjas" though (flying dudes with a shield of rotating flames), and the only consistent way I've found to approach them is to either use a special weapon, or suck up a single hit as I tank through the shield to slice them up. I can wait around for chances to shoot through their shield, but doing so is so dangerous that there's a like 90% chance I'll end up taking a hit anyway. Any good consistent tips against them??


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:08 pm 


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Aha, I remember those flame tengu being the game's first "aw sheeit" enemy too. Can't recall quite how I dealt with 'em... don't think I needed to damage sponge or anything though. Will fire it up tonight if you don't get back before then.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:51 pm 


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I often tend to save a spare lightning weapon for those enemies, but IIRC there is one in the third castle who can be outran if you have the speed shoes and thus doesn't need to be killed. It is the one who appears in this room. Even though the player here decides to be adventurous and point-blanks it, you can move alongside the upper wall and dodge it entirely. That can give you more subweapon uses for rooms where those fire enemies are more dangerous.

Learning the stages is pretty important as you said, and I think that learning the spots where you will use your lightning subweapon can also greatly help you given how they act like smart bombs.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:20 pm 


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Yeah, that's how I ended up beating them. Found a lightning weapon in a suspiciously "empty" room early in the stage. Unfortunately there are four of those ninjas in the castle though, and you only get three uses, so being able to evade that one is a great trick! Didn't look like you could do it!

You can evade the first one you run into, too, but I had to try my luck on the girl/1up in a detour you can take from his room, and due to the way the room is laid out you will take an unavoidable hit when reentering the room from above, if you leave him alive >_>

What saved me though, was finally figuring out how to take on those red guys that shoot white squiggly lines at you while the walls are raining fire over you, since I had been spending my lives and/or special weapons on those instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:01 am 


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i've known about this game for ages but never played it for some reason. it's really, really great. every enemy is terrifying. learning where the different powerups and health refills are is definitely key as it's significantly harder after you die and lose power ups. not knowing the symbols for the different power ups is an issue i have too. picking up a new weapon when i already have the four way fire shot or the three in a row wide kind of fire shot makes me sad.

i've only made it to the stage 2 boss without continuing so far, but i got there with only the basic weapon and got wrecked.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:44 am 


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For the stage 2 boss you basically just want to get up in his face and slash, since his shots don't seem to be aimed in your direction.

I think the only powerup that takes away your multi-shot powerup is the red feather. I'm unsure what it does, too?


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:39 pm 


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