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 Post subject: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:33 am 


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http://www.siliconera.com/2013/03/15/du ... -xbox-360/

Great news - never thought I'd see the day.
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:09 am 



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I wonder if these ports will do anything to add structure to the games? The combat in Shadow Over Mystara is very fun, but its team and RPG elements don't mesh very well with the traditional arcade format.
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:40 am 


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Dunno, just don't find myself caring. If this was on a disc and in a box, it would be different, but whenever there's an announcement of an old arcade title being released in digital download format, the fact that it exists on mame (in a more future proof and feature rich version) any hype dies instantly.
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:52 am 


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Skykid wrote:
Dunno, just don't find myself caring. If this was on a disc and in a box, it would be different, but whenever there's an announcement of an old arcade title being released in digital download format, the fact that it exists on mame (in a more future proof and feature rich version) any hype dies instantly.


Very good point. Amassing a digital library of old arcade ROMS that are locked to one specific console is not a future I am looking forward to, because it means you will sooner or later lose all those games.


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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:01 am 


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Skykid wrote:
Dunno, just don't find myself caring. If this was on a disc and in a box, it would be different, but whenever there's an announcement of an old arcade title being released in digital download format, the fact that it exists on mame (in a more future proof and feature rich version) any hype dies instantly.

I'm the same way. I don't appreciate games unless I own the physical media. I have an Xbox full of roms, including the D&D games. But buying the D&D collection for the Saturn last year made me very happy. I hardly ever play those Mame roms.
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:22 am 


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I think this is great. Hopefully they can keep putting more of their old stuff out too.
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:30 am 


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Great news, they will make these games available to more people. SOM is one of the best beat'em ups ever along with Alien vs. Predator, which I really hope gets ported someday. As for added features I'd love to see an extensive practice mode for SOM, but that's probably asking too much from Capcom.

But what I'd really really hope is to see some ports of IGS stuff. I'm dying to play their newer stuff.
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:40 am 


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Hagane wrote:

But what I'd really really hope is to see some ports of IGS stuff. I'm dying to play their newer stuff.


They're a fantastic company and extremely prolific here. Not only are they keeping 2D alive in the new millennium but they're driving out racing games and random taikan cabs like there's no tomorrow. I keep looking at stuff thinking "who made this" and invariably it turns out to be them.
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:14 pm 


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Did you get a chance to play Knights of Valour 3 HD over there, Skykid? I'd like to know if they went for true HD sprites or just HD backgrounds with some filtering for the characters.
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:33 pm 


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(Accidentally pm'd this)

Is that the atomiswave one, because if so it looks looks shit. Copy pasted sprites on cg backdrops.
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:55 pm 


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Knights of Valour 3 HD is for PGM3.

The HD is probably fake though, like it's with Cave on x360 and KoF12/13 too. They advertise it as HD but it's just highres (640x480).

@Skykid

Are you still in China? Is IGS big in HK/China and Korea?
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:57 pm 


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Skykid:

No, it's a remake of Knights of Valour 3 for IGS's new hardware (the PGM3), released last year. I know it has HD backgrounds, but since all I could get from the internet was blurry cellphone cam footage I can't tell if the sprites are copy pasted like in the Atomiswave KOV (Seven Spirits) or if they are also HD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... y_9-05xlWY
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:04 pm 


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Well there are two things that seem significant about this. 1) I always thought the reason we never saw a proper western port of this was because Capcom had lost the rights from TSR. I can't imagine that costing much money, but it seems like they have the rights two publish these two games now; great!

2) A reissue could mean being able to play these games online with friends. Maybe this doesn't mean shit to anyone else, but all my friends I used to play these games with live hundreds of miles away. Getting together to do some online brawling sounds like a helluva lot of fun.

Maybe this isn't panty-wetting news, but honestly I'm really happy Capcom has bothered with ports like Third Strike and Darkstalkers Resurrection. They aren't really that expensive and are breathing back new life into a period of gaming I liked a LOT more than the current one.
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:05 pm 


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@THE

Yes I am, and yes IGS are enormous! Read a few posts up. ;)

@hagane

I think that one might be in Hot Game Club. If I see it I'll try to get footage for you.
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:10 pm 


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I'd really appreciate that (even if it's just visual confirmation so you don't get in trouble). Thanks!
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:36 pm 


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Awesome news! Really love those two games, probably my favorite arcade beat-em-ups. I just hope they don't go crazy and charge 10-15 bucks for them both...

CMoon wrote:
2) A reissue could mean being able to play these games online with friends. Maybe this doesn't mean shit to anyone else, but all my friends I used to play these games with live hundreds of miles away. Getting together to do some online brawling sounds like a helluva lot of fun.


Well if my experience with Golden Axe is anything to go by, playing online is a waste of time due to massive lag. If I'm not the host I got like a second of input lag. This one could have better netcode but I'm not really expecting it.

There's still the option for offline co-op though. Perfect for me.
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:42 pm 


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I'm sure they'll use GGPO for the netcode. With a wired connection you can get good games even at 200-220ms.
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:01 pm 


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4-player is the most important feature to include for online. Has there been any GGPO game that's supported 4 players yet? I'm not aware of any.

These games should be great news for most. Even the SS version has loading times, JP-only text, and a 2-player limit (albeit with an extra item collection feature that I doubt will be included here). There are almost a guaranteed few frames of input lag in this version as with every other CPS2/CPS3 emulation so there's certainly still worth in having the originals. I also reckon that this emulation will be using the newer 960619 version of Shadow Over Mystara so those of us with the 960209 version will want to keep it for the invincibility glitch.


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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:48 pm 


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Hmmmmmmm. Will the board price go up or down as a result, I wonder? Or stay the same.

This is great news in a sense, as more people should certainly play them, but I don't play games online and I have very little friends who play older games anymore, so this really doesn't benefit me much, I guess.

Looks like I should just finally cave and get a board so I can play it in the garage by myself/with my cats.
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:06 pm 


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Original game prices always fall after a re-release (including digital re-releases). I'm not aware of an exception to this rule so if you're looking for the board, then it'd probably be cheaper to wait around until this version is released.


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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:13 pm 


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Yeah, I kinda figured so, as it seems fairly obvious that it should. I dunno, "renewed" interest in a game always just gets me worrisome, I guess.
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:46 pm 



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Also be aware that these games are strongly team-oriented. The characters in Capcom's other brawlers might lean toward speed or power, but they aren't pigeonholed into roles the way D&D classes are. It's not particularly fun to be a magic-user with no one to run interference for you.

Even when you've got other players, this codependency causes problems. Maybe, 25 minutes into the game, the group's cleric takes one hit too many and eats dirt. The other players could go on without him, but they've permanently lost healing and buffing capability, which their tactics probably depend on. They could start over, but of course no one wants to do that. So the cleric's player sticks in another coin, turning the experience from "will we make it through?" to "victory is assured, the only variable is quarters."

Limiting credits is one way the ports could address this issue. Another would be to implement lives and extends, so one death doesn't end a credit. And another is to put in checkpoints that you're kicked back to after a TPK, so the game can be mastered a segment at a time. Capcom really should do something, though, if they want there to be any kind of community. Stick the bare arcade ROMs online and people will play only once or twice to see the pretty graphics.
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:22 am 


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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:18 am 


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Mortificator wrote:
Also be aware that these games are strongly team-oriented. The characters in Capcom's other brawlers might lean toward speed or power, but they aren't pigeonholed into roles the way D&D classes are.


Untrue. Any character can clear the game in single player in one credit. Even ones like the Cleric, who has easy infinites to destroy bosses.

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Even when you've got other players, this codependency causes problems.


If those players don't know how to play the game and have never properly played a beat'em up in their lives, that is.

If you want to stop people from credit feeding, give no continues and add a practice mode that lets you select the last stage you reached. No need to dumb the game down by making it easier or adding checkpoints.
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:14 am 


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He didn't say it wasn't possible...do you agree it's easier with a team or not?


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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:51 am 


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It wasn't what I thought Hagane, it was Knights of Valor 3 on a 4 cab setup. I'll keep my eyes peeled for HD anyway, it's bound to be in one of these arcades unless its proven unpopular. If a game isn't up to scratch it tends to be ejected quickly. People would rather play the old stuff.
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:46 am 


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Ed Oscuro wrote:
He didn't say it wasn't possible...do you agree it's easier with a team or not?


He made it look as if some characters had a really hard time due to their "specialized" design, that if some of your specialized characters died in a multiplayer game you pretty much had to give your run up and that credit feeding is some sort of consequence from the game's design rather than a casual practice not unlike in any other arcade genre. All false.

I've already read him commenting on the supposed credit feeding nature and "flawed" arcade design of belt scrollers a few times now, which leads me to think that he isn't very familiar with the genre.

Skykid: that's OK, thanks for taking the time to check it out!
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:40 pm 



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Or perhaps I am, and reached different conclusions than you?

Shadow Over Mystara is a team game. People playing by themselves do have an exponentially harder time. Single-character clears don't negate its team nature any more than they do Phantasy Star Online's. People beat tactics RPGs with single characters too, but going counter to the design requires idiosyncratic play.

If you're good at a game like Final Fight and another player joins in, well, that's nice. Now there's another body to manage enemies and wail on bosses. It doesn't change your approach, though (unless the other guy grabs food you need). Interdependency is actually a point in Shadow Over Mystara's favor, since essential teammates are more meaningful than ones you can take or leave. The problem was in using a new team dynamic without adjusting the arcade structure they'd been using.

As for stage select, that isn't very useful in a title with RPG elements. The characters aren't blank slates, so health, experience points, inventory, and spells remaining are going to vary from play to play.

I'll make a prediction right now: between the D&D re-releases and their successor Dragon's Crown, the most successful title will be the one that handles the teamplay issues best.
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:17 am 


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Mortificator wrote:
Shadow Over Mystara is a team game.


It's not. It has better multiplayer design than most other beat'em ups, but it's not any harder than, say, AvsP as a single player experience. There are no "interdependence issues" as you mention, since there are no absolutely necessary characters in a team and any character can hold his/her own alone (you basically said that if you lose a "vital" character you have to choose between credit feeding or throwing the run away). Certain team builds can make things easier, but in no way team play is mandatory as you made it look with your comments. Pretty much every single belt scroller can be made easier with a skilled partner anyways.

As for stage select, there's no reason why they can't let you pick your items from the available ones in your route. It would be a much better choice than dumbing the game down like you suggested.
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 Post subject: Re: D&D Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara to PSN/XBLA
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:51 pm 


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What buffing capabilities did the Cleric have...I haven't played that game in so long.
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