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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 8:53 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 9:16 pm 


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quash wrote:
Yeah fuck the founding fathers, what did they know? They didn't even start their day with Prozac or have those delicious tacos down the street for lunch.


Compromise and limit civilian weapon ownership to the actual powder muskets the founding fathers were thinking of?

Kinda hard to go on a rampage in the mall with one of those.

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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 9:18 pm 


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Mischief Maker wrote:

Kinda hard to go on a rampage in the mall with one of those.

*TAMP TAMP TAMP* "You stay right there, I'll be with you in a moment!" *TAMP TAMP TAMP*


I laughed an unreasonable amount at this.


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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 9:31 pm 


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Yeah fuck the founding fathers, especially that whole "well-regulated" part of the equation, what did they know?


Quote:
I laughed an unreasonable amount at this.

You'd probably enjoy this.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 10:52 pm 


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You're making me link Steven Crowder and I don't like that.

https://youtu.be/MW_noXjj6w8

https://youtu.be/wZrcR3guGG0

I have to give him credit here though: he really dismantles every stupid argument I've heard. And actually, so does one of the comments: if the militia refers to the military (which are different things anyways), why does it mention the people, and furthermore, why would there have to be a constitutional right for the military to have guns?


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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 9:23 pm 


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quash wrote:
if the militia refers to the military (which are different things anyways), why does it mention the people, and furthermore, why would there have to be a constitutional right for the military to have guns?

Hey, methinks you're right: perhaps the Framers did mean that non-military people could own guns, and that this right of ownership would be well-regulated, as opposed to a batshit let-God-sort-em-out free-for-all? Nah, they were actually making a cryptically absolutist argument (wake up, sheeple!) in anticipation of Obama staging Sandy Hook as an excuse to take everyone's guns away and give the blacks/Jews/etc. free rein to exact their New World Order revenge. :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 9:41 pm 


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It explicitly states that the militia is to be well regulated, not the right to bear arms.

How can a militia of any kind be formed if people are regulated in what types of firearms they can own? Why would the people who founded the US want for there to even be such a thing as a well regulated militia? Who even determines what well regulated is? Why does the Supreme Court consistently reinforce, even in its dissent, that the 2A is all or nothing? Why do you want guns banned so badly, anyways? You don't want Civil War 2, do you? Because that's how you get Civil War 2.

BTW, plenty of people who own firearms (I'd even venture to say the vast majority of them) know how to use them properly. Many of them are active/former military and law enforcement, or people who received training from them. Maybe you should take one of the firearms safety courses that people with concealed carry permits have to take. Maybe you should even try shooting a real gun at some point. Who knows, you might even like it.


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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 10:33 pm 


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Your completely genuine and good-faith statements get more openly trollish as they go (Civil War 2? Seriously? Fuck off :lol:), but in response to that first one, the existence of said militia is the stated reason that non-military people are given the right to bear arms to begin with; how laughably thin do you have to slice the deli meat to state that you're somehow supposed to "regulate" The Militia Itself without even considering regulating the things that make them a militia, especially when those things still exist and are used when the militia isn't active? How do you even regulate a militia without regulating what they keep at hand?
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 10:41 pm 


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This all goes back to a question I posed that you conveniently ignored: who determines what well regulated is?

The entire point of a militia is to be a non-governmental military organization. If the government is able to dictate what non-governmental militaries are allowed to have, doesn't that make the premise of said organization farcical? The whole point is to not have to answer to the government for anything.

And yes, a repeal of the Second Amendment is a surefire way to kick off the next Civil War. That's why anti-gun legislators are primarily focusing on state and local laws, and why even on a federal level there's only regulations on certain types of weapons and certain features. There's a few reasons why this has all been allowed to go on over the past sixty or so years, but at the rate the social contract is being absolutely destroyed before our very eyes, many people, including leftists, are quickly starting to see why the 2A is so important. You may see it yourself, one day, but if your attitude towards it right now is any indication, it won't be until it's far too late.


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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 11:56 pm 


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quash wrote:
The entire point of a militia is to be a non-governmental military organization. If the government is able to dictate what non-governmental militaries are allowed to have, doesn't that make the premise of said organization farcical? The whole point is to not have to answer to the government for anything.

First off, dude, the government regulates all manner of non-governmental entities - and frankly, if you want real evidence of the "fraying of the social contract", it's the former's increasing refusal to do its job in this area, at the direct expense of its citizens (but hey, don't waste my tax dollars on some pencil-neck telling the wealth creators to pick the rat shit out of my food when I could just be self-reliant and use common sense every time I eat, right?).

Second, the Amendment doesn't specify the intended purpose of such a militia (which, I'm sure, every gun owner in America would be immediately raring to join, as the Founders apparently intended, I guess?), but I find it difficult to imagine that the idea was never put forth that it could, as in Revolutionary times, be called upon to aid the government as well as oppose it.

Third, if the Founders truly wanted the militia to be so completely removed from all government oversight, why did they bother to call it "well regulated" at all? Fourth, I'll ask again: if you're not going to regulate, in some fashion, the weaponry that makes a militia a militia, then what exactly do you regulate? And whatever it is, what's the point?

And come the fuck on, the Second Amendment is not going to be repealed, by anybody. It's just not happening, and those who say they're trying to do it are all but entirely blowing smoke, and should stop. And so should you.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 12:21 am 


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BulletMagnet wrote:
First off, dude, the government regulates all manner of non-governmental entities - and frankly, if you want real evidence of the "fraying of the social contract", it's the former's increasing refusal to do its job in this area


I knew before even clicking that this was going to be something regarding Trump, because of course. Lord only knows everything was fine until he showed up.

Quote:
Second, the Amendment doesn't specify the intended purpose of such a militia


Maybe you should read the Federalist Papers, or some of the letters the founders sent to each other on the subject. It's pretty clear that first and foremost the intent was to allow the citizenry to bear arms and form militias as they saw fit.

Quote:
but I find it difficult to imagine that the idea was never put forth that it could, as in Revolutionary times, be called upon to aid the government as well as oppose it.


Possibly, but that doesn't change anything I've said, either.

Quote:
Third, if the Founders truly wanted the militia to be so completely removed from all government oversight, why did they bother to call it "well regulated" at all?


Most readings of the 2A interpret that as meaning people who knew how to use guns, like former soldiers. Again, refer to contextual documents of the era if you really want to know.

Quote:
Fourth, I'll ask again: if you're not going to regulate, in some fashion, the weaponry that makes a militia a militia, then what exactly do you regulate?


Nothing. What part of "shall not be infringed" isn't clear?

Quote:
And come the fuck on, the Second Amendment is not going to be repealed, by anybody. It's just not happening, and those who say they're trying to do it are all but entirely blowing smoke, and should stop. And so should you.


Maybe not outright repealment, but there's already a ton of gun laws in the US (mostly on state and local levels) that are absolutely unconstitutional. The magazine limit in California was recently ruled as such and was only placed back in effect by the state DOJ enstating a stay on the ruling.

And for the record, the next time you have the gall to insinuate that I'm arguing in bad faith, remember this:

https://twitter.com/RepSwalwell/status/ ... 52352?s=19

Even Snopes can't outright refute this one, and has to jump to the defense of it being a joke. Haha.

When thinking about this issue in particular, ask yourself: do you really trust the government? This guy is a congressman. I was in the military, and you don't like me very much. Perhaps you should reassess just how much trust you place in the nameless, faceless cogs in the machine that is our government institutions, or the ones with names and faces, even, and ask yourself: do you really want them to be the ones responsible for your safety?


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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 3:01 am 


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quash wrote:
I knew before even clicking that this was going to be something regarding Trump, because of course. Lord only knows everything was fine until he showed up.

:roll: Dude, there's no way you think Trump is the sole example of "pro-business" policy I could name (though he is the one I've seen you enthusiastically support). Quit playing the abject moron.

Quote:
Most readings of the 2A interpret that as meaning people who knew how to use guns, like former soldiers.

Okay then, so if this is the accepted interpretation, why should anyone who isn't formally trained in firearms use be counted among the "well regulated militia" and thus allowed to not only own weapons at all, but do so with no limit to the amount or potency of their stockpile? You're chasing your own tail.

Quote:
When thinking about this issue in particular, ask yourself: do you really trust the government?

Implicitly? Of course not, but I'm willing to believe that at least some of the people therein occasionally try to do something to improve the country; badmouth Social Security all you want, but if memory serves it reduced the poverty rate among the elderly from 60-something percent to around 10, or something along those lines, and if you want to take a shit all over that you go right ahead. Also, consider the alternative, namely private enterprise motivated solely, openly, and proudly by greed, who have only stopped ravenously scamming and enslaving people when they've been forced to, almost always via government action of some sort.

Is either case an absolute? No, because nothing is, but frankly, despite all the ongoing efforts to kill it, history gives me more faith in at least some Social Security payments still coming in when I get old than in my 401k not vanishing into thin air during the next recession/depression and leaving me with less than zero and a whole bunch of fat, wagging fingers from those who got away clean.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 3:16 am 


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BulletMagnet wrote:
Okay then, so if this is the accepted interpretation, why should anyone who isn't formally trained in firearms use be counted among the "well regulated militia" and thus allowed to not only own weapons at all, but do so with no limit to the amount or potency of their stockpile? You're chasing your own tail.


You have to become familiar with firearms somehow, right? Even joining the military isn't a solution here because ignoring that even back then not everyone was eligible for it, how do the people conducting training for the military get trained? The answer to that of course is by civilian firearms experts, such as, say, the people making the guns.

Granted, in the modern age there are firearm manufacturers such as Heckler and Koch who have sent mixed signals on the 2A, but I suspect that mostly stems from wanting to keep certain products of theirs more lucrative for those ever so sweet defense contracts, as they still sell most of their guns to the civilian market.


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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 1:12 pm 


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quash wrote:
You have to become familiar with firearms somehow, right? Even joining the military isn't a solution here because ignoring that even back then not everyone was eligible for it, how do the people conducting training for the military get trained? The answer to that of course is by civilian firearms experts, such as, say, the people making the guns.

Okay, so do you advocate some kind of mandatory training for anyone who wants to own a gun, or did the Founders somehow also not mean that when they said "well regulated"?

Actually, seeing as you're both determined to take us this deep into the weeds and that it's made some news lately, what are your corresponding thoughts on another hallowed right under the law, namely the right to vote? If you believe that nothing in a person's past should infringe on their right to own any amount of any firearm they want, what do you think of recent proposals to guarantee people with felonies on their record, or even people still serving time, the right to cast a ballot? Are their rights currently being infringed (I'm particularly interested in your take on this beauty)? If you think that things like mandatory waiting periods are unconstitutional, why isn't Election Day a national holiday, and why are conservatives in particular so gung-ho on closing polling places and shortening voting hours to make it harder to cast a vote? Hell, if everyone should be free to modify civilian weapons into de facto military ones, how do we still tolerate "winner take all" tallies that essentially void the votes of anyone in the latter portion of a 51-49 district, and outright discourage them from voting in the first place?

Long story short, if you want to take such an absolutist stance on one particular constitutional right, I hope you're willing to explain why it ought to take such precedence above all the others. Though I can already guarantee the looming New World Order will be in there somewhere. :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 2:36 pm 


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There's no need for mandatory training. Guns aren't that complicated, you just have to grasp a few key concepts to use them safely and effectively. As far as I can tell, you're reading the 2A backwards as you seem to think that it hinges on being
well regulated, when really it hinges on not being infringed.

I don't support felons currently in prison having all of their rights intact, but once you're out of prison your rights should be fully restored, including but not limited to voting and bearing arms. Before anyone asks why an ex con might need a gun: prison beef can be no joke. I know former cops that conceal carry for similar reasons.


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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 2:53 pm 


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quash wrote:
As far as I can tell, you're reading the 2A backwards as you seem to think that it hinges on being well regulated, when really it hinges on not being infringed.

I'm pretty sure it "hinges" on both, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered putting both in there - the issue is what anyone considers "infringement". Speaking for myself, I find it extremely difficult to posit that anyone is having their right to bear arms "infringed" by the threadbare patchwork of gun regulations that currently exist, nor that they would be "infringed" in any meaningful way if measures like limits on full-auto upgrades and mass purchases were enacted; obviously you and others disagree, but if you ask me you have to willfully ignore a lot (mass shootings, suicides, etc.) in favor of a handful of convenient exceptions and/or fabrications (the occasional "fought off a home invader" story, New World Order conspiracies, etc.) to do so.

By the way, I still want you to go deeper into the gun rights vs. voting rights issues I presented in my previous post: if you consider it unconstitutional to not only outright prohibit someone from obtaining any particular gun but even to merely make it less convenient or immediate for them to do so, how do you parse the enormous and rapidly growing number of ways that people are being openly discouraged from casting votes?
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 3:14 pm 


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You need an ID to purchase a gun, you should need an ID to vote. You should need an ID with 2FA to do anything that interfaces with the government. The government already requires it internally and is slowly rolling out Smart IDs for everyone else, so it is probably coming down the pipeline. I don't want to get too deep into voting rights in a 2A thread. But, long story short, I just want everyone that's eligible to vote to be able to do so and nobody that's ineligible.


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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 3:25 pm 


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quash wrote:
I don't want to get too deep into voting rights in a 2A thread.

I don't want to talk about the millions of illegals here either, but that's clearly the direction you're attempting to steer this thing in, and - we've certainly never seen this before! - away from the actual question I asked you.

This isn't complicated, nor off-topic: if you believe that making gun ownership and acquisition even minimally less convenient or immediate than it could possibly be is an "infringement" of the right to bear arms, do you also believe that making it less convenient and/or possible to vote in the first place, or to have one's vote counted once it's been cast, are also "infringements" of the right to vote? If not, why not?
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 3:39 pm 


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Generally, I am not a fan of infringing upon either right, but you're ignoring that these are both things that are done illegally with relative ease. That's why it's okay for example to have arms dealers register with the ATF, because otherwise it'd be harder to track those involved with illegal exportation of arms, among other things. Likewise, you have to be registered to vote, and you should have to present an ID to vote as well. I'm not asking for anarchy, rather a loose framework that ensures that the system is working as intended.

Before you cite studies that show voter fraud is non existent, I'll go ahead and put on the record that mass shootings are a serious anomaly when you factor in the literal tens of millions of law abiding firearm owners in the US. So either way we're trying to prevent a worst case scenario that, by any quantifibale measure, is the exception and not the rule.


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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 8:17 pm 


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I think sealioning should be bannable.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 3:34 pm 


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I had to look up what that meant. Here's what Urban Dictionary had:

Quote:
A subtle form of trolling involving "bad-faith" questions. You disingenuously frame your conversation as a sincere request to be enlightened, placing the burden of educating you entirely on the other party. If your bait is successful, the other party may engage, painstakingly laying out their logic and evidence in the false hope of helping someone learn. In fact you are attempting to harass or waste the time of the other party, and have no intention of truly entertaining their point of view. Instead, you react to each piece of information by misinterpreting it or requesting further clarification, ad nauseum. The name "sea-lioning" comes from a Wondermark comic strip.


Seeing as BM knows next to nothing about firearms, is disingenously trying to equate the right to bear arms with the right to vote in an attempt to catch me in some sort of inconsistency, and isn't really doing anything to help anyone learn in this instance, are you sure you're talking about me?


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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 5:16 pm 


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Oh come the fuck on, how much does someone have to know about firearm operation to be able to state "in good faith" that your view on firearm ownership is about as close to absolutist as it gets - moreover, when your stated reason (for the moment, at least) for this stance is "the founding fathers obviously thought it was important, and we wouldn't want to risk anything that might tamper with their vision", how "disingenuous" is it to question you on how willing to take such a stance you might be when it comes to other things they obviously thought were quite important (like, y'know, democratic participation)?

Beyond that, where do you get off acting like anyone in favor of gun control is only talking about mass shootings, and also have the chutzpah to daisy-chain that convenient assumption to the utter farce that is "concerns" about in-person voter fraud, as if the two should be of remotely comparable interest to any honest observer? All, the while, as it happens, completely ignoring my questions about current, ongoing, and expanding efforts to discourage the vote, as opposed to theoretical ones the plutocrats are still working on, which, by the way, have absolutely zero relevance to the "election integrity" stooges like you claim to care so much about, but have no problems whatsoever tolerating (and/or encouraging) even as you decry all but the barest minimum of checks on firearm acquisition and ownership?

I feel like I have to tell myself this every few months, but I really should know better than to think engaging with you is anything but a colossal waste of time.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 8:43 pm 


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You love to twist words, as always. I didn't say you know next to nothing about firearm operation, I said you know next to nothing about firearms, period. You don't know their history nor their current relevance. You don't know that most gun crimes are committed by legally purchased guns that required a background check. You don't know what the background check entails. You don't know or care that the majority of gun crime in the US takes place in areas with the most gun control. You probably think military grade weapons are typically better than what's available to consumers. If you want your views on this topic to be taken seriously, you had better come prepared with at least basic knowledge of why firearms were important to the founding of this country and why guns are not only here to stay, but why taking them away would destroy the US as we know it.

As for your insistence on discussing the right to vote, I find it irrelevant to the subject at hand and a lazy distraction at best from the fact that you are in way over your depth on this issue. I'm not even sure what kind of response you're trying to get from me by bringing it up. You also don't seem to be thinking past the surface in terms of how these rights are handled on a practical level, insofar as that you can only vote through the government, whereas you can get firearms from multiple sources. By default, one is more restrictive than the other already. I don't think it's good that the government or anyone else is conspiring to make it more difficult to vote, but I also fail to see why it's relevant to a discussion about the 2A.


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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 12:05 am 


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Fucking hell. :lol: Folks, how difficult is this:
quash wrote:
I don't think it's good that the government or anyone else is conspiring to make it more difficult to vote, but I also fail to see why it's relevant to a discussion about the 2A.

Because you've said that in order to honor the Founders' vision we can't risk anything beyond the barest minimum of oversight, let alone limitations, when it comes to the Second Amendment rights they put into the Constitution, but when I ask if you feel just as strongly about outright assaults on another set of rights that doesn't involve firearms, you utterly refuse to answer. This suggests one of two possibilities: 1) You think that the rights provided by the Second Amendment should be interpreted more absolutely, or at the very least prioritized ahead of others, including the right to vote, in which case I would very much like to hear why, or 2) You're only focusing on the Second Amendment because it's such a hot-button issue and gets such lulzy reactions, not because you actually care about it, in which case you can fuck off. :lol:

And yeah, it'll certainly surprise you to hear that I'm not a firearms expert (though some of those blurbs sound highly suspect - if crime goes up when gun control is tighter, why is the police force of any area considering loosening gun laws always openly against doing so? A two-minute search certainly smells a rat), so go ahead, tell me why overwhelmingly popular measures like full-auto modification bans, waiting periods and limits on mass sales would qualify as "taking guns away" and thus doom the country.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 4:00 pm 


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Quote:
I don't support felons currently in prison having all of their rights intact, but once you're out of prison your rights should be fully restored, including but not limited to voting and bearing arms.


Quote:
But, long story short, I just want everyone that's eligible to vote to be able to do so and nobody that's ineligible.


Quote:
Generally, I am not a fan of infringing upon either right


I think I made it pretty clear without getting into too much detail that I don't like infringement upon the 14th amendment. Since you want to discuss it so badly here, let me ask you now: what do you think of the states that want to give their EC votes to the candidate that won the national popular vote instead of the candidate that won it in their state? Or the states that want to take Trump off the ballot unless he releases his tax returns (which isn't required by law)?

Quote:
if crime goes up when gun control is tighter, why is the police force of any area considering loosening gun laws always openly against doing so?


Here's a fun fact not many people know: law enforcement officers are almost always exempt from gun control. A good example of this is the roster of certified handguns in California. On its face, it may seem like LEOs just want an unfair advantage in a firefight over the rest of the population, and that may very well be true. But there is also another reason, and it's one that even a state like California has had to directly confront and live with the reality of: LEOs can sell their otherwise illegal guns to anyone they choose. Essentially, the state has created a black market for handguns that aren't deemed "safe" for most of the population by allowing LEOs to purchase and sell them. Technically, they aren't allowed to turn a profit off of said guns unless they have an FFL, but in reality, things don't always play out that way.

Quote:
A two-minute search certainly smells a rat


http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-my ... -and-guns/
http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-my ... countries/

Have fun.

Quote:
tell me why overwhelmingly popular measures like full-auto modification bans, waiting periods and limits on mass sales would qualify as "taking guns away" and thus doom the country


Full auto is a meme, you can unload a semi auto AR-15 or comparable rifle pretty quickly even without it, and that's not including a bump stock. Simply firing at a fast pace will get you through a 30 round magazine in a short enough time to do basically as much damage as you'd do with full auto. I'd know: I did it last night, legally, at a firing range. This makes it a non-issue to most people who actually know how to fire a gun, which is why there hasn't been much vocal dissent against the full auto ban for some time now.

Waiting periods are bureaucratic bullshit, plain and simple. They don't do anything except make you wait. If someone was willing to kill people ten days ago, they'll be willing to do it today.

Curbing mass sales does have some merit as it could potentially slow down illegal exportation of arms, but ultimately there are other ways to do this that don't require limiting how many firearms an individual can purchase at once. That, and there's no telling what will qualify as a mass sale in the future, so there's reason to believe that this, like many other gun laws, constitutes a slow burn approach to gun control.


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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 4:34 pm 


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gunfacts.info is a gun sales lobbying group thinly disguised as an "informational" website, I mean really: https://www.quora.com/Is-www-gunfacts-i ... aims-to-be

Quote:
Waiting periods are bureaucratic bullshit, plain and simple. They don't do anything except make you wait. If someone was willing to kill people ten days ago, they'll be willing to do it today.


And once again we've got someone spouting hot takes with a complete disregard of the stats behind gun deaths and suicides, and how impulsivity is often a factor, something which a waiting period along with background checks and training/examination requirements (similar to needing a driver's license for instance) would reduce. How novel.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 4:49 pm 


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Yes, Quora and Snopes are totally unbaised. :roll:

Here, this is a source I'm sure you won't take issue with: https://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/st ... ses-reduc/


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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 5:02 pm 


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The first link you posted is already neatly torn apart by this article from 2015:

Spoiler: show
Whittle’s video is just one example of using real facts to promote false claims and mislead people, but at least he started with reality. The same cannot be said of another pro-gun website that purports to highlight “gun facts.” Indeed, that is the name of the website, and I have often been referred to it. Yet even a modicum of digging reveals that the “gun facts” listed on the opening page are, well… not facts. The website consistently makes revisions to its listed “facts” and often writes in new qualifications for them, but when I looked at the site a few months ago, I decided to explore the first four “facts” listed, and you can see them below.

1: Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year or 6,849 every day. 5

2: Property crime rates are dropping (especially burglaries). As the legal handgun supply in America rises the property crime rate drops. 6

3: Every day 400,000 life-threatening violent crimes are prevented using firearms.

4: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed. 7

These samples are from: http://www.gunfacts.info/... (The related footnotes can be found there as well).

But when we take a closer look…

“Fact” #1 references a discredited paper from, Gary Kleck, who leapt to an inductive conclusion on defensive gun uses after surveying a woefully small sample-set and presuming that it held true for the entire population. Kleck didn’t even bother to verify any of the respondents’ claims or match them with available, real-world evidence. He claims between 1 million and 2.5 million annual instances of defensive gun use (that’s right, he allows himself a margin of error of one and a half million), but in 2014, the verified number of such uses was just shy of 1600. Even if we doubled that number to allow for the possibility of unreported instances, it still means that the pro-gun crowd has multiplied the number by a factor of more than 781 to come up with their claim. “Fact” #1 isn’t, and interested readers can find a fuller criticism of Kleck’s study here.

“Fact” #2 Fails to make a causal relationship between handgun supply in the USA and “property crime rates.” Never mind the fact that most property crimes (like shoplifting) do not require a gun to commit or stop, this faux-fact wants gullible readers to jump to the conclusion that handguns reduce property crime even as it provides zero evidence about the involvement of guns in either committing or defending against property crime. In short, “fact” #2 is useless (at best), and designed to deceive (at worst).

“Fact” #3 Is at odds with “fact” #1. Which is it? Do guns prevent 6,849 crimes every day, or is it 400,000 per day? We just went from 2.5 million annual instances of defensive gun use in “fact” #1 to 146 million in “fact” #3. Not only is this wildly inconsistent and flatly unbelievable, this faux-fact doesn’t even bother to cite a source. And just like “fact” #1, it fails to correspond with verified defensive gun uses.

“Fact” #4 referenced a 30-year old study that only considered the input from a select group of inmates in a handful of prisons and merely assumed that it applies to all criminals today. I hope reasonable people can see the problem with this sort of inductive logic leap. And if that is not enough, consider that by the linked website’s reckoning, “60% of criminals avoid crime when they know their intended victims have guns.” Sounds like an impressive case for guns, right? Unfortunately, the inclusion of all criminals is like saying that a drug-dealer wouldn’t sell cocaine to his usual clientele if he knew they were carrying or that a tax-evader wouldn’t have dodged his due if he knew IRS agents carried weapons. “Fact” #4 is ridiculous. Sometimes “gun facts” aren’t.


The second link posted is just as stupid and filled with inaccuracies, such as attempting to pretend relative overall homicide rate is linked to gun control in an attempt to encourage the guns = stop deaths/crime narrative. Fact #4 for instance basically ignores that the US is the only major developed nation that isn't (relatively speaking) in political turmoil or at war that has massive amounts of gun-related deaths. It also pretends that its widespread capitalist gun interests are equivalent with countries with mandatory military service where owning a rifle (and receiving training on safety and use) are both equivalent. The second link also completely ignores one of the other major issues the US is dealing with, which is accidental gun injuries and death, which are also massive and widespread, where not only do people end up shooting themselves but also bystanders by accident, due to an easy availability of guns without any kind of training or licensing requirements.

Basically, both those links you posted are filled with bullshit that doesn't stand up to even a cursory examination of the evidence, and use data that is cherry-picked or willfully twisted to make claims the data doesn't support. It's a form of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

quash wrote:
Here, this is a source I'm sure you won't take issue with: https://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/st ... ses-reduc/


Do you even read the stupid bullshit you link before posting? This flat out discredits your claim of "Waiting periods are bureaucratic bullshit, plain and simple. They don't do anything except make you wait.":

Quote:
Similarly, Harvard’s David Hemenway said he was aware only of research that links lower suicide rates with wait periods. Many studies link lower levels of lethal violence with strong gun control laws in general, but not with particular laws such as a waiting period, he said.

There is research to indicate that handgun waiting periods are linked with lower suicide rates.


I'm not sure why you bothered to post this, except maybe because you didn't bother to read the bit I literally just posted above about suicide rates and impulsivity with respect to gun purchase waiting periods.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 5:32 pm 


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Your claim was gun deaths and suicides, not just suicides. People can commit suicide in other ways, you know. You can do it with your car and some HVAC tubing. You can jump in front of a train. You can jump off a building. You can overdose on fentanyl that was smuggled across the southern border. Killing yourself with a gun is needlessly expensive and messy.

And really, linking The Daily Kos? You just lost your privilege to accuse anyone else of being biased.

Funny how at the very top of that article it says this

Quote:
Community (This content is not subject to review by Daily Kos staff prior to publication.)


Even they don't want to risk further tarnishing their reputation with this shit. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 6:37 pm 


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Quote:
Your claim was gun deaths and suicides, not just suicides.


No, my claim was gun deaths and suicides and how:
Quote:
impulsivity is often a factor, something which a waiting period along with background checks and training/examination requirements (similar to needing a driver's license for instance) would reduce.


Helps if you don't take people out of context.

Quote:
Killing yourself with a gun is needlessly expensive and messy.


It is also quick and easy to do when you're feeling impulsive.

Quote:
You just lost your privilege to accuse anyone else of being biased.


Would you care to point out where I said "you're wrong because of bias"? Or where I rested the entire sum of my arguments purely on "you're biased therefore wrong"? Can't help but note that you didn't actually address a single failing that I pointed out in any of the links you posted, or any particular statement you disagree with in the Dailykos argument that directly points out several flawed "facts" in the link you posted.

Of course, you're not here to chat about how maybe people shouldn't have to worry them or their kids being shot at in a mass shooting, or whether maybe it's a bad idea to make available with no oversight or due diligence a high-caliber rifle that can fire, as you say: "at a fast pace will get you through a 30 round magazine in a short enough time to do basically as much damage as you'd do with full auto". You love your guns, your AR-15, and other people's lives are merely inconvenient to you when they threaten to get in the way of your guns. Fuck the casualties, you'll hang onto your guns FOR 'MURICA. An elementary school full of dead children is an acceptable price to pay FOR FREEDOM. Golly, why I bet pictures of dead children with their faces shot off by a school shooter bring a tear to your eye, not because they're dead (who gives a shit about a few hundred dead kids, fuck 'em, right?), but because they're a glorious reminder of how FREE AND GREAT 'MURICA IS. How dare the parents of the children of Sandy Hook whine about having a few bullet ridden kids?! They should be praising how wonderful the country they live in is where their kid is fortunate enough to get the chance of dying in a glorious display of 'MURICAN FREEDOM.
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