Another day, another shooting in the US

[BryanM]

Don't make me paint portraits of myself in the shower and send them to my sister.

[Skykid]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/04/09/po ... ew-jersey/

Thanks to Lord Satori for the update.

Of course it's just a means. The four year old could have just as easily accidentally plunged a kitchen knife through the kid, plotted to poison his milk or conspired to have him rammed off the road on a mountain pass and down a ravine. All as equally likely as playing with a firearm and pulling the trigger.

[MX7]

Of course it's just a means. The four year old could have just as easily accidentally plunged a kitchen knife through the kid, plotted to poison his milk or conspired to have him rammed off the road on a mountain pass and down a ravine. All as equally likely as playing with a firearm and pulling the trigger.

Exactly, a gun is a tool like any other. The thought of going through my day without using a knife to cut vegetables, taking a bus to get to work, or shooting a gun to kill or seriously injure a human or animal is unthinkable.

[Skykid]

Terrible as this is, I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry.

The shooting came just days after a 4-year-old boy in Tennessee grabbed a loaded gun at a family cookout and accidentally shot to death the wife of a sheriff's deputy amid debate over gun control laws in the wake of December's Newtown, Conn., elementary school massacre.

That's one way to settle an argument I guess.

[O. Van Bruce]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/04/09/po ... ew-jersey/

I feel terribly sad right now...

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Stories like these make me feel really good about not breeding. There's no fucking way I'm interested in propagating such a generally retarded species.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas ... 423373.php

Thank goodness his fantasy didn't involve guns, I guess (or could he just not find a convenient one a family member had?). But geez, a scalpel and a boxcutter? That takes some seriously crazy dedication, emphasis on the crazy.

[undamned]

Stories like these make me feel really good about not breeding. There's no fucking way I'm interested in propagating such a generally retarded species.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas ... 423373.php

Thank goodness his fantasy didn't involve guns, I guess (or could he just not find a convenient one a family member had?). But geez, a scalpel and a boxcutter? That takes some seriously crazy dedication, emphasis on the crazy.

Knife control. Save us, Obama!
-ud

[Casey120]

Nah , knives man .

Nobody died !

[BryanM]

Nobody died !

Fookin' useless knives...

Maybe if we combine them with sabre red or something, they could be worth a damn thing....

[O. Van Bruce]

We need light sabres to protect our homes.

[neorichieb1971]

Non gun owners don't get victimized for not owning weapons.
Gun owners don't win every fight.
There is more death where there is more guns.
A gun accident only happens when a gun is present.
Guns only protect you from the fear of being inadequately prepared.
Ultimately, the world is not as evil as a gun owner will make out.

[Specineff]

^^^ O, RLY? http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... WdC_eGdZBk Funny how no one ever brought this up. Mom has gun, intruder breaks into the house, mom shoots intruder, mom and baby get to live another day. A winner is her.

What about shovels and pickaxes? Or nail guns? Those are like guns and hammers combined. Oh, THE HUMANITY.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Funny how no one ever brought this up.

It was pointed out like a million times in this thread that yes, there are occasions where guns can be helpful in a self-defense situation, but no, they don't include assault rifles with huge amounts of ammunition and are usually exceptions, not the rule. Also, generally these feel-good stories of self-defense are toted as "hey look guns are AWESOME" despite not being accompanied by any statistics as to how many cases of these exist vs. cases of gun deaths as a result of negligence or crazy people getting their hands on easily available guns, whereas we've seen plenty of cases of late where dozens of people are injured or killed because a batshit crazy lunatic gets their hands on easily available weaponry (be it from a family member's unsecured stash, a stupid bitch who buys it for a convict, etc).

They could have just has easily had guns as well, and potentially just shot her ass dead, so really this is more a case of idiotic thieves than "GUNS SAVE THE DAY!". And that's ignoring the good guy doesn't always win/shoot the bad guy issue. This is the sort of story you hear gun nuts hold up with glee when they proclaim stuff like "I don't need 911, I have a GUN!", not the ones who keep one gun at most for this sort of thing, but stockpile weapons like it's the end of the world and claim it's for self defense. I'm no statistician so I've no idea where to even start digging, but I would bet money that this sort of event is actually quite rare compared to the number of gun death incidents related to crime or accidents.

[BulletMagnet]

...but she could have been even more heroic if she'd cared enough about her baby to stockpile a cabinet full of military-grade rifles complete with expanded-capacity modifications and explosive rounds.

Seriously, I'm not sure where the "anybody in favor of even some minimal form of gun control wants to totally eradicate every gun off the face of the earth and hates anyone who owns one" thing is coming from, save the NRA's PR department. I dunno, has there been high-profile criticism of the actions taken by this woman and others like her that I haven't caught wind of?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I dunno, has there been high-profile criticism of the actions taken by this woman and others like her that I haven't caught wind of?

Probably only in the form of psychological projection. I'm sure there are people crazy enough to believe that anyone thinking of making of some form of gun control reform wishes that woman (or anyone else who's used a gun in self defense) had died/been raped. It's the same mentality that leads the NRA to think any suggestions that there should be safety classes mandatory or stricter licensing is the same as wanting to take all the guns away everywhere.

[BryanM]

I'm no statistician so I've no idea where to even start digging, but I would bet money that this sort of event is actually quite rare compared to the number of gun death incidents related to crime or accidents.

Justifiable homicide is somewhere around 260 per year..

Almighty knows I've tried to get the Wisqars to give me that sweet sweet data, but hell if I can figure out how to open it up. Had to settle for charts from the FBI. Charts and the FBI, how can I not beweive?

Of course the average number of white guys here who need to shoot themselves per month (~1000) humbles that number..

(I guess if you want to be really generous to batmen-with-a-gun and give them a huge, ginormous benefit of the doubt, you could claim around 5% is justified. This kind of thing is news for a reason though; the typical real-life stories are the kind of things you see at the weeklyvice or mydeathspace, not the kind of feel-good everything-is-fine claptrap you hear all the time. Not profitable, that stuff.)

[rancor]

^^^ O, RLY? http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... WdC_eGdZBk Funny how no one ever brought this up.

Pg 14 of this thread.

[HenAi]

It was pointed out like a million times in this thread that yes, there are occasions where guns can be helpful in a self-defense situation, but no, they don't include assault rifles with huge amounts of ammunition and are usually exceptions, not the rule. Also, generally these feel-good stories of self-defense are toted as "hey look guns are AWESOME" despite not being accompanied by any statistics as to how many cases of these exist vs. cases of gun deaths as a result of negligence or crazy people getting their hands on easily available guns, whereas we've seen plenty of cases of late where dozens of people are injured or killed because a batshit crazy lunatic gets their hands on easily available weaponry (be it from a family member's unsecured stash, a stupid bitch who buys it for a convict, etc).[/i]

First, it's better for one person to be able to successfully defend themselves than for ten people to potentially be saved from accidentally shooting themselves.
Second, actually yes, it includes exactly those rifles. It's pretty common for people not to stop after getting shot once. Or twice. And those rifles are built to be easier to handle than, say, a normal hunting rifle. Or a shotgun. They're a lot more suited for women and elderly people. Well, depending on the specific one, of course.

[Skykid]

12 people killed by mentally ill person with access to firearms. Says he thought he was "just displacing mass".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24111481

[BareKnuckleRoo]

There's more recent info on the incident on Wikipedia:

In 2010, he was arrested in Fort Worth for discharging a weapon within city limits. [he shot a fucking bullet through his ceiling into a neighbour's apartment!][36][37] Alexis was also arrested in 2004 in Seattle, Washington, for malicious mischief, after shooting out the tires of another man's vehicle in what he later described as the result of an anger-fueled "blackout";[28][38][39] and in 2008 in DeKalb County, Georgia, for disorderly conduct.[40] None of Alexis' arrests led to prosecution.[41]

Alexis appeared to be suffering from some sort of mental illness, but there remains speculation as to what drove him to commit the shooting. Alexis had filed a police report in Rhode Island on August 2, 2013, in which he claimed to be the victim of harassment and that he was hearing voices in his head.[47] He also claimed that he was being stalked in an organized manner by a group of three people who were using invisible, electronic means and preventing him from sleeping. On August 23, he went to the VA hospital emergency room seeking assistance with his sleeping problem, subsequently being given Trazadone.[48] He then visited another VA hospital five days later in Washington D.C. for a Trazadone refill.[49]

Yep, sounds like a guy who should be allowed to own guns!

On Saturday, September 14, two days before the massacre, Alexis visited the Sharpshooters Small Arms Range in Lorton, Virginia, 15 miles (24 km) south of Washington. He tested out an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle but did not seek to buy it, a lawyer for the store said. After testing the rifle, Alexis inquired about buying a handgun at the store, but was told federal law does not allow dealers to sell such guns directly to out-of-state customers. Alexis instead purchased a Remington 870 Express 12-gauge shotgun and two boxes of shells, after passing a state and federal background check.

Can't get a handgun? You can just get a shotgun instead. God bless America.

[trap15]

Wow this is silly. I'd be laughing if there weren't people dead from this.

[BryanM]

A weeklyvice had a guy trying a killing rampage with his car, driving into crowds of people like it was Grand Theft Auto. 1 fatality, and a bunch of hurt people. Vaguely notable, I guess..

[Casey120]

These Navy guys should have been armed !

[Edmond Dantes]

Oh, this topic is bumped. Guess I'll post some recent discoveries.

From this article:

Within a decade of the handgun ban and the confiscation of handguns from registered owners, crime with handguns had doubled according to British government crime reports. Gun crime, not a serious problem in the past, now is. Armed street gangs have some British police carrying guns for the first time. Moreover, another massacre occurred in June 2010. Derrick Bird, a taxi driver in Cumbria, shot his brother and a colleague then drove off through rural villages killing 12 people and injuring 11 more before killing himself.

Meanwhile, law-abiding citizens who have come into the possession of a firearm, even accidentally, have been harshly treated. In 2009 a former soldier, Paul Clarke, found a bag in his garden containing a shotgun. He brought it to the police station and was immediately handcuffed and charged with possession of the gun. At his trial the judge noted: "In law there is no dispute that Mr. Clarke has no defence to this charge. The intention of anybody possessing a firearm is irrelevant." Mr. Clarke was sentenced to five years in prison. A public outcry eventually won his release.

And here's a statistical report released by the United Kingdom government. Highlights include:

There were 636 homicides in England and Wales in 2010/11 including the 12 victims of the Cumbrian shootings committed on 2 June 2010. The total number of homicides in 2010/11 was 28 higher than the 608 in 2009/10
(a 5% increase)

* There were 60 victims of homicide by shooting (58 by firearm, 2 by crossbow), an increase of 19 from 2009/10. This includes the 12 victims of the Cumbrian shootings

So, points:

1. Guns are banned in Britain.

2. It has not prevented gun crime. In fact, it seems to have made it worse.

3. More people are killed by other means than by guns. Proving the old adage that someone who is intent on killing will just find a different tool.

4. People can now be arrested even if they did nothing wrong, just because of the arbitrary nature of the law.

This proves what anyone with a functioning brain has been saying for quite some time: "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns."

But I'm tired of arguing with sheep who refuse to look at facts and think for themselves and would rather just bleet the same fear-mongering rhetoric and stick their head in the sand. I'm done arguing with manchildren and farm animals.

[trap15]

sheep

Automatically disqualifies you from having an informed opinion.

refuse to look at facts

Like these facts?

[KennyMan666]

This proves what anyone with a functioning brain has been saying for quite some time: "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns."

[Skykid]

2. It has not prevented gun crime. In fact, it seems to have made it worse.

I suppose you wrote that with a straight face before considering putting the same statistics side-by-side with the US.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Oh, this topic is bumped. Guess I'll post some recent discoveries.

From your own blog:

Seriously, people can be arrested just for having a gun–even if the reason they have it is because somebody threw it in their yard, and even if they did the proper and legal thing and turned it in? People actually would rather America adapt such Orwellian measures

EDIT: holy shit not two posts from this blog post he has an MLP fanfic on why 'grun control' is evil stemming from his butthurt on an older topic, what the fuck am i reading aaaaa

YES BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT ALL GUN CONTROL ADVOCATES WANT

oh wait, no it fucking isn't, you're just being a simpleton and a moron as usual

Let's do some actual research to see what happened here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... stead.html

When he took it to a police station four days later, he was shocked to be arrested for possessing the firearm.

He found a shotgun and ammo in his yard and... what, waited four days without calling the cops and then, disturbed the evidence by just taking it to the police station later? Why the fuck didn't he call the cops the moment he found it?

This could be a potential miscarriage of justice which nobody wants, least of all gun control advocates, so your attempt to spin it as a "look at how dumb the gun control crowd is!, they're horrible orwellian monsters!" is as shortsighted as pretty much everything else you say on the subject of guns. Clearly notifying police of a weapon they found is a good thing, but there are several things that make this much less of a black and white issue than the spin you put on it suggests, and there are some seriously suspicious issues at hand, namely the long delay between finding the gun and the intent to bring it to the police, and the poor decision to bring it to the police instead of calling them right away, which may have potentially damaged/destroyed any forensic evidence the police may have wanted had the gun been used in a crime. Mr. Clarke doesn't seem to deserve five years in prison, no, but that's not to say he handled the situation well if facts are as stated. A far better legal discussion (i.e. not one coming from a known moron) of Mr. Clarke's case can be found here:

http://jackofkent.blogspot.ca/2009/11/p ... stice.html

You're a fucking imbecile. Just thought you should know.

[quash]

These Navy guys should have been armed !

The victims were all contractors (read: old, fat, civilians). Though it's not like active duty military are exactly trusted to carry weapons on installations, either...

Lots of gun control supporters ITT. More than I expected, actually.

I find myself in a strange position. On one hand, I fully support the idea of legally owning guns and the ability to form an armed militia. On the other hand, I have to look past those ideals and acknowledge that a lot of people abuse firearms and probably shouldn't have them (this extends to everyone, not just the civilian population, mind you).

A lot of gun legislation is feel-good in nature, and ends up making things more difficult for legal owners. Being from California, I can't help but cite the Assault Weapons Ban, which basically bans things that look scary without actually thinking through what those things contribute to the effectiveness of a weapon (the 8 round magazine limit being the exception). Somehow, this legislation also entirely avoided banning any kind of shotgun, meaning that you can legally own a Saiga 12 in California, but not an AK-47, the rifle that it's based on.

There is no easy answer to this (banning all guns is not an acceptable solution, and if you can't figure out why for yourself then you really need to study some history), but ultimately, it comes down to what you can justify in exchange for owning firearms. There's plenty of factors at play that contribute to crime (looked at unemployment statistics lately?) that people seem to overlook, and I'd wager that those things contribute far more to violent crime than access to guns. If anything, it's probably easier to buy a gun today than it has been in 20 some odd years. Yet violent crime across the board is dropping. Correlation, meet causation, amirite?

[BulletMagnet]

(banning all guns is not an acceptable solution, and if you can't figure out why for yourself then you really need to study some history)

As I always ask whenever this is brought up, is anyone, let alone anyone of consequence, actually advocating this? Considering how often it pops up you'd think it was imminent, even though next to nobody (especially those in a position to enact it) actually wants it.