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 Post subject: Another day, another shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:23 am 


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Country's got a serious problem. Called guns. Wonder if Obama will finally implement the firearm ban (Charlton Heston turns in grave.)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/20734267
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:41 am 


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This shit actually made me cry when I saw it on the news..
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US :yawn:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:41 am 


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Don't they also have a ton of guns, yet none of the violent rampages, in Switzerland? The problem could be something else. Cultural, social, biological?
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:42 am 


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If they don't ban the use of guns after this shit, they're never going to do it.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US :yawn:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:44 am 


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But it's our right! All you terrorists wanna take away our freedom! We ain't go no problems but LIBERALS!

But yeah, I never realized how easy it was to buy a guy until I bought one myself like two months ago. I like shooting guns--at inanimate objects, and I bought one for the first time for home safety. I was kind of appalled and dumbfounded when it only took me about 20 minutes to buy a revolver, with no known prior buying history, gun knowledge, knowledge of mental state, etc. And then I walked out of the store with it and the ammo. It was like going to the grocery store, only they had to run a background check for my produce.

Murder rate in my shit city was at an all-time this year as well. I run into looney tune weirdos, meth heads, and backwoods rednecks everyday--and I guarantee, if they don't already have a gun, they could get one in twenty minutes from a major supplier. The horror of FREEDOM.


Last edited by drauch on Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US :yawn:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:45 am 


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Gun ban will never happen. Expect a token effort to tighten gun control, which obviously won't do any good in this arena. If you're fucked up enough to attack 2nd graders, there won't be a law to prevent you doing it.

This event seems different from other school shootings. I can sort of kind of understand when social outcasts decide to go on a massacre - it's a horribly warped version of teen angst. But shooting primary school students? That's something far deeper.

I happen to believe that any weapon the gov't has access to should also be accessible to the general populous. Perhaps the popular prevention of tyranny is outweighed by the capacity of sociopaths to do pointless killing. I tend to remind myself of the Franklin quote: Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither, and lose both.

Perhaps contemporary nations are too large for such ideals to have meaning.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US :yawn:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:46 am 


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I spent most of the day refreshing news websites and then went home early because I couldn't really focus on anything anyway. If I had kids I would have been a mess.

As much as I like the concept of gun control, I have no faith that it will ever happen to any meaningful extent in the US. A quick google tells me there are something like 310 million (nonmilitary) guns in the US - even if we were to halt production and ban the sale of firearms outright, that's a staggering number of them out in the wild. Would they try to confiscate them? Christ help us.

I recently got a reminder of how strange Americans can be about guns - my brother put a handgun on his Christmas list. We're talking a college student who lives at home, has never hunted, or to my knowledge ever had interest in or held guns so my assumption is that he just thinks they're neat. My dad went to the local sporting goods store and a gun show to look at guns with him. I'm certain he's not actually going to get one as a Christmas present but fuck - it was just kind of surprising how casual they were about the process of purchasing a deadly weapon.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US :yawn:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:52 am 


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Stormwatch wrote:
Cultural, social, biological?


Yeah, I was just being curt in the OP. Social and cultural problems most definitely (not biological lol.)

Moniker wrote:
Gun ban will never happen.


It will, because the US's mental state isn't getting any healthier.

We should go back to the 90's when honorable American Ninja and kickboxing was hip. They had something going there.

And also, someone should execute Uwe Boll.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US :yawn:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:56 am 


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There was also an attack on 22 children outside an elementary school in China:
http://www.latimes.com/news/world/world ... 3015.story
Fortunately, nobody was killed.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US :yawn:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:04 am 


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Stormwatch wrote:
Don't they also have a ton of guns, yet none of the violent rampages, in Switzerland? The problem could be something else. Cultural, social, biological?

Yes, definitely. It probably also has something to do with the fact that in Switzerland, they mandate that you take a gun usage/care/etc. course, and give you a rifle to keep. I'd imagine the distribution is better too; they probably make sure they aren't giving someone mentally unstable a gun.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:15 am 


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Skykid wrote:
Country's got a serious problem. Called guns. Wonder if Obama will finally implement the firearm ban (Charlton Heston turns in grave.)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/20734267


Oh come on, guns are not the problem. They weren't the problem the last time the US had a major shooting and they weren't the problem the last time my country had a big shooting either. Claiming that they are does nothing but bolster a bullshit lobby that does little to actually help the situation. Reacting purely on emotion, not fact. Making guns more illegal does not remove them from society, it only makes them less easy to track and makes life more difficult for normal, honest gun owners. There's very little evidence that it actually has an impact on crime. Do a little research on your own ban and the lack of a notable impact it's had on the UK.

The problems leading to today's shooting have yet to be determined and until they are you can't point a finger. If there is an overall problem in the US then it's cultural and it's about the desire to to react with violence, not the ease of access to weapons to do so. If a man wants to kill, then he'll find a way to do so.

CStarFlare wrote:
I recently got a reminder of how strange Americans can be about guns - my brother put a handgun on his Christmas list. We're talking a college student who lives at home, has never hunted, or to my knowledge ever had interest in or held guns so my assumption is that he just thinks they're neat. My dad went to the local sporting goods store and a gun show to look at guns with him. I'm certain he's not actually going to get one as a Christmas present but fuck - it was just kind of surprising how casual they were about the process of purchasing a deadly weapon.


There's nothing wrong with a casual interest. In fact I'll take a guy who thinks guns are neat any day over a guy who thinks he needs them to defend himself from his neighbours. That kind of fear and self-defence retrace is truly scary to me.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:22 am 


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njiska wrote:
Oh come on, guns are not the problem.



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Yes, this is a very practical weapon for the recreational gun user.

Or your typical mass murderer.

Get fucked.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:28 am 


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Even if it's conceded that guns aren't the problem, it doesn't follow that placing further restrictions on them can't be part of the solution.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:38 am 


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Drum wrote:
Even if it's conceded that guns aren't the problem, it doesn't follow that placing further restrictions on them can't be part of the solution.


Then show proof that it actually does solve something. This is my biggest problem by far. Everyone thinks more restrictions help, but there's not a lot of data to back this up, just feelings. I agree that I don't think a normal person has much use for an assault rifle, but I can't say that them having one is going to result in mass murder either. One should never have his freedoms restricted based solely on beliefs, fear and what ifs. You need also remember that reducing gun violence doesn't mean a god damn thing if you don't reduce overall violence. For example you will find a number of studies that show that the number of suicides and homicides commited with a firearm generally do decrease when restrictions are added, but the overall rate of homicides and suicides remain the same. In other words you're changing the instrument, but not changing the actual out come. Aka, people still die in relatively the same numbers.

The problem is still the people, not the firearm. I have no problem with further restrictions being part of the solution if it can be shown that they actually solve something, but unfortunately as it stands, there's just not a lot of support. Hell, I'll even concede that I like the idea of licensing gun owners and requiring they take safety course, but I'll readily admit this is just my feeling on the matter and not something I can actually back up with fact. Happy thinking is not necessarily helpful thinking.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:49 am 


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njiska wrote:
One should never have his freedoms restricted based solely on beliefs, fear and what ifs.


The right to bear arms has nothing to do with recreation or hunting. It's a basic right to protect oneself from any threat, whether it be foreign, domestic, or governmental. If the basic function of government is to protect the lives and properties of its citizens, then it's absolutely essential that citizens be able to protect themselves in the same way. Otherwise, you yield all responsibility for self-protection to the government, which undermines the fundamental notion of political mandate.
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Last edited by Moniker on Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:56 am 


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Obama can't ban guns. It isn't that simple. At any rate this dude could have done the same thing with a knife or a gun obtained illegally. I doubt that people that do this have any sort of moral reason to not break the law by purchasing a gun on the black market.

Some sick stuff though. It boggles the mind how or why anyone would do this.


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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:09 am 


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njiska wrote:
One should never have his freedoms restricted based solely on beliefs, fear and what ifs.

Beliefs, fear and what-ifs certainly seem to be the stock and trade of a troubling number of gun enthusiasts these days, very much including the NRA itself: "Obama totally wants to take all our guns away! Sure, he hasn't done a single thing to advance gun control despite a number of mass shootings on his watch, but don't be fooled, he's a crafty one!"

And to take the matter a step further, when does advocating that even mental patients and terrorist watch list occupants be allowed to buy an unlimited number of assault weapons in one purchase (and be able to bring them, loaded, into any public place they please) start to infringe on the "freedom from fear" (or whatever you care to call it) of those who have to live around them?

Quote:
Obama can't ban guns. It isn't that simple. At any rate this dude could have done the same thing with a knife or a gun obtained illegally.

I still don't think this is a reason to just do nothing; if we can't prevent this sort of thing from happening entirely (and it's true, we can't), we ought to make it as difficult as possible for someone to make it happen: it's a lot harder to kill dozens of people with a knife than it is with an automatic rifle.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:17 am 


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If I wanted to kill as many people as I could at minimum risk to myself in as short a time as possible, I would either use a bomb (but those are banned :cryingeagle.gif) or a machine gun type weapon. This is a view I have developed based on logic and facts, not feelings.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:25 am 


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Octopod wrote:
At any rate this dude could have done the same thing with a knife.


Too much of a coward to do it with a knife, too face to face. Same as all these other guntoting murdering fuckhalfs who want to vent their teen angst by shooting women and children.

Guns are for pussies. Visit Southwark for a demonstration of how to murder someone up close and personal.

njiska wrote:
Oh come on, guns are not the problem.


They were this morning.


Moniker wrote:
It's a basic right to protect oneself from any threat, whether it be foreign, domestic, or governmental. If the basic function of government is to protect the lives and properties of its citizens, then it's absolutely essential that citizens be able to protect themselves in the same way.


A basic right that the majority of the world's countries do not deem necessary for maintaining a peaceful society.

Every related news story I see, there's always some American waxing lyrical about 'guns not being the problem' followed by 'we need to hope people can change'.

Well hope isn't a strategy, so good luck with that.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:39 am 


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Moniker wrote:
njiska wrote:
One should never have his freedoms restricted based solely on beliefs, fear and what ifs.


The right to bear arms has nothing to do with recreation or hunting. It's a basic right to protect oneself from any threat, whether it be foreign, domestic, or governmental. If the basic function of government is to protect the lives and properties of its citizens, then it's absolutely essential that citizens be able to protect themselves in the same way. Otherwise, you yield all responsibility for self-protection to the government, which undermines the fundamental notion of political mandate.


And that mentality, my friend, is what I think your country's real problem is. It reminds me of a gentalman I once saw being interviewed on Panaroma who had spotted someone breaking into a neighbours house, called the police to tell them what was happening and then went out and shot the burglar dead. One can reasonable protect themselves without turning to acts of violence, but the culture seems to encourage the use of weapons to do so 100% of the time.

I'd be curious to know if any other first world country shares the mindset you describe, because I don't think the bulk do. I do not feel threatened enough in my own home to need anything more than my own two hands for defence.

BulletMagnet wrote:
njiska wrote:
One should never have his freedoms restricted based solely on beliefs, fear and what ifs.

Beliefs, fear and what-ifs certainly seem to be the stock and trade of a troubling number of gun enthusiasts these days, very much including the NRA itself: "Obama totally wants to take all our guns away! Sure, he hasn't done a single thing to advance gun control despite a number of mass shootings on his watch, but don't be fooled, he's a crafty one!"

And to take the matter a step further, when does advocating that even mental patients and terrorist watch list occupants be allowed to buy an unlimited number of assault weapons in one purchase (and be able to bring them, loaded, into any public place they please) start to infringe on the "freedom from fear" (or whatever you care to call it) of those who have to live around them?


First of all the NRA are a bunch of sensationalist nut jobs no better then the other side of the gun lobby. But don't confuse their rhetoric with actual debate.

Second restricting mental patients and terrorist watch list entities, as you've chosen to single out, is a different matter than general population gun control. If you can show someone is a danger to themselves or others then there are already laws in place to restrict their activities. Laws that are not just restricted to firearms, but all kinds of dangerous implements. I have no problem with that as you have shown a valid, scientific, non-emotional justification to take away certain rights from those individuals alone.

BulletMagnet wrote:
Quote:
Obama can't ban guns. It isn't that simple. At any rate this dude could have done the same thing with a knife or a gun obtained illegally.

I still don't think this is a reason to just do nothing; if we can't prevent this sort of thing from happening entirely (and it's true, we can't), we ought to make it as difficult as possible for someone to make it happen: it's a lot harder to kill dozens of people with a knife than it is with an automatic rifle.


Yeah, but there's more ways to kill someone then just a knife or gun. On April 19th, 1995, Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people using only a truck and some relatively easy to obtain supplies.

Last year in Norway, Anders Behring Breivik shot up 69 people at a camp (despite Norway's reasonable gun control laws), but he also killed 8 and wounded over 200 using a homemade carbomb composed of fertilizer and fuel.

Death will find a way. If you don't stop treating the implements and start treating the people, then nothing will change.

Skykid wrote:
They were this morning.


No, some nutjob who wanted to kill a bunch of kids was. Place the blame where it belongs, on him.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:12 am 


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njiska wrote:
Skykid wrote:
They were this morning.


No, some nutjob who wanted to kill a bunch of kids was. Place the blame where it belongs, on him.


I feel as though you're underestimating the power of the weapon. Lets look at this hypothetically:

Young teen, full of angst, listens to lots of loud music by bearded men with unintelligible lyrics and cries himself to sleep because girls don't love him and it's not how it is on TV.

Goes on internet, gets rage. Vent, spittle, "I'll show those bastards for not understanding my hormones!!"

Now, in a country where firearms are unavailable, our inward, bullied teen full of angst has several options of recourse. He can:

A: Burn down his house. But then he would be homeless, lose his Xbox 360 and Sepultura CD's, and might die trying to escape the ensuing blaze OR be caught in the act and get grounded.

B: Go get a big knife. But then the murder is limited. You can probably only stab up one defenceless infant before someone tackles you to the ground and you go to prison for eternity, because people are less afraid of knives. It's also, eew, gross n' stuff, because you might get blood on your Slipknot tee shirt.

C: Make a bomb. But oh, this internet guide seems complicated. Sulphate hydroxide what already? I don't even have a measuring jug. Screw this, I gotta get some CoD in before a furious crywank and self harm with a razor blade.

D: Beat someone to death: not strong enough, too many variables. They'll probably beat me to death first.

E: Acid attack. That's just fucked up. Might spill some on myself, or hit a dog by accident.

F: Poison a water supply. Too slow. Will be in the news for ages, and then I have to live with myself and may one day regret it. Not sure if I want that on my shoulders.

G: Get a fully automatic machine gun, like in those Uwe Boll movies, a bullet proof vest and a shit ton of ammo. Not only do I get to keep my distance, but no-one can approach me and no-one will have time to react. I can kill every motherfucker in two whole rooms with one of these babies, in about four minutes flat. Just like in the movies. I always wanted to be in the movies. Shooting people is cool in the movies. Ultimate power trip, maximum damage, least effort. And it has a proven track record. Best of all, after everyone finally understands the depths of my teen angst, I can save a bullet for my own little head, and try to hit the pea brain floating around inside.
Win win.






...The point being, if you remove G from the equation, fewer people will die.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:17 am 


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I agree with the above. If guns didn't matter at all, why do they seem to be the weapon of choice for these school attacks? If it were all down to knives, swords, and nunchakus I doubt as many people would be killed as easily. I guess bombs would become the preferred option, but those take a lot more initiative and planning to pull off and cut down on the impulsivity of some of these gun attacks.


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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:24 am 


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I mean, yeah, there is a bit more to it other than "guns are the problem." People are never going to change. This country is never going to change. People will go to any means to get a gun if it's harder to obtain one, but gun control is still going to deter a lot of crazies away from easy access. You think some punk highschool kid with social anxiety is going to track down a firearm fro some shady dealer? Very unlikely. Gun control will never solve the problem, but it could easily help it. Background checks need to be more thorough, not a quick computer scan to check what sort of crimes you've committed in a certain time period.

Do people need easily modifiable AR-15s, AK-47s, Mac-10s, etc? Hell no. The gun shop I went to a few weeks ago had fucking WALLS of "semi-automatic" rifles. Even Wal-mart carries AR-15s now. A few years back this wasn't really the case.


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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:26 am 


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Hmmm, looks like the "kid" took the guns from his parents.


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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:32 am 


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drauch wrote:
Hmmm, looks like the "kid" took the guns from his parents.


Bet they'll live to regret having guns in the house.

Oh, no, they won't.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:32 am 


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http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compa ... 5,69,10,91


Guns clearly are not the problem.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:33 am 


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Ohhhh, I shouldn't laugh.

Yep, just read that he suffered from multiple disorders. And his mom was an avid gun collector. Perfect logic!


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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:53 am 


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Skykid wrote:
...The point being, if you remove G from the equation, fewer people will die.


NTSC-J wrote:
I agree with the above. If guns didn't matter at all, why do they seem to be the weapon of choice for these school attacks? If it were all down to knives, swords, and nunchakus I doubt as many people would be killed as easily. I guess bombs would become the preferred option, but those take a lot more initiative and planning to pull off and cut down on the impulsivity of some of these gun attacks.


Skykid that entire argument is so full of theatrics that it's hard to write a serious response. If I were to guess, your basic argument is that guns are the easy and/or attractive solution, so therefore if we remove them from the equation, things won't happen. Well, the problem with this logic is that making guns illegal does not make them disappear, it just makes them a little harder to obtain. This may be enough to deter a spur of the moment killing, but, as has been repeatedly shown, these massacres are not spur of the moment affairs. Someone doesn't just wake up in the morning, decide they're going to murder a school of students and then grab a gun on their way to coffee. There's literally months of planning and if you're going to invest that much effort, you're willing to consider your options. In this case if the weapon is illegal than all someone needs to do is find an illegal dealer. This is not a challenge in any major city, even London, despite your country's incredibly strict and unreasonable gun legislation.

NTSC-J as I said above, impulsively is not a factor in these crimes. Let's look at some bigs ones:

2012 Aurora Shootings (The Dark Knight Rises): Suspect allegedly began acquiring items for this massacre in May. Shooting occurred on July 20th.
2011 Norway Attacks: Planning started in 2009/2010.
2011 Tucson Supermarket Massacre: Planning began in Nov. 2010, attack carried out Jan. 8th, 2011
2009 Ford Hood Masacre: Planning began in July 2009. Attack on Nov 5, 2009
2007 Virginia Tech Massacre: Handgun was purchased in Feb. Planning began before then. Attacks carried out in April.

Now I won't dispute that there are plenty of single victim homicides that are spur of the moment and nearby guns are definitely used for them. However, as the statistics show, tighter gun laws do not prevent these crimes and the attacker will just use something else.

Skykid wrote:
Bet they'll live to regret having guns in the house.

Oh, no, they won't.


Try showing a little respect for the dead.

drauch wrote:
Ohhhh, I shouldn't laugh.

Yep, just read that he suffered from multiple disorders. And his mom was an avid gun collector. Perfect logic!


If that is the case then she should have practiced safe gun ownership. If I have a mentally unstable kid I'm not going to get rid of the guns I have, but I'll damn well keep them locked up and out of his reach.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:01 am 


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njiska wrote:
If that is the case then she should have practiced safe gun ownership. If I have a mentally unstable kid I'm not going to get rid of the guns I have, but I'll damn well keep them locked up and out of his reach.

That's the problem though. There's no mandate on learning how to properly and safely own a firearm.

The real issue in all of this is education. If we aren't going to ban firearms, we need to mandate education on using and safely owning them.
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 Post subject: Re: Another day, another school shooting in the US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:04 am 


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mesh control wrote:
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compare/194/number_of_gun_homicides/136,192,178,177,172,105,69,10,91


Guns clearly are not the problem.


Yeah, I'd say that poll pretty much backs up that guns are not the problem. If they were then there'd be some level of correlation between the number of guns per capita and the number of gun crimes. Yet we see the following:

US: 88.8 firearms per 100 people (9,146 homicides)
Switzerland: 45.7 firearms per 100 people (40 Homicides)
Sweden: 31.6 firearms per 100 people (18 Homicides)
Canada: 30.8 firearms per 100 people (173 Homicides)

Source: http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmi ... e-4-EN.pdf

There's no level of balance there. Granted there are about 50 billion other factors at play here and using such simple statistic is pointless, however the numbers do still show that raw numbers of guns along don't match up with the actual number of crimes. Thus I shall continue with my stance that the issue is the people, not the tools at their disposal.

trap15 wrote:
njiska wrote:
If that is the case then she should have practiced safe gun ownership. If I have a mentally unstable kid I'm not going to get rid of the guns I have, but I'll damn well keep them locked up and out of his reach.

That's the problem though. There's no mandate on learning how to properly and safely own a firearm.

The real issue in all of this is education. If we aren't going to ban firearms, we need to mandate education on using and safely owning them.


I don't see any problem with that. In fact I think this is a pretty reasoned way of addressing at least part of the problem. Education is always a better solution than mere restriction because it addresses the people. As I said before, I happily support licensing, even though i don't have the numbers I'd like to have to back it up.
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