The Super Famicom / Super NES Thread

[Skykid]

Septentrion is definitely on my check list now.

It's not far off brilliant, you just need to adjust to a lot of unusual aspects and be prepared for ultra tension/frustration at certain points. Playing Septentrion is completely worthless if you can't read Japanese, however (the box art on the other hand: sex). SOS is the version you want, translated for your pleasure.

[MX7]

I think Umihara Kawase is very similar to a lot of STGs: you really get out of it what you put in. Someone once said (on the old ikaruga.co.uk forum that you only really start to understand Ikaruga after ~400 hours of play. Now, I haven't sunk that much time into Ikaruga, or indeed any other game, but I have with Umihara Kawase. If the controls seem clunk at first, it's because you are being given a tool-set with absolute flexibility. Consider it like learning to play the guitar. At first, your hands will numbly fumble with even the most basic chords. As time goes on and you commit these actions to muscle memory, the chords shapes become essentially subconscious. It's exactly the same with Umihara Kawase. As you become familiar with basic techniques (the Tarzan swing, the wall climb, the rocket jump), you find yourself messing around with variations of these techniques, showboating, and honing them to perfection. In the Zelda games, for example, you face an insurmountable obstacle and must obtain an item to render it passable. In Umi, you can theoretically do everything from the outset: the only thing holding you back is your skill.

As you progress, the initial flaws start to seem insignificant. Many of the more frustrating parts can be bypassed entirely. The tadpole boss is a bore, sure, but on the shortest (and in my opinion best) route you don't have to fight it at all. Most enemies can also be bypassed entirely, though it takes practice.

The graphics and music are odd. And I love them. The fuzzy black and white sea scapes are like something out of a dream. The music seems weirdly contrapuntal to the game's punitive difficulty. If the foreground graphics seem a bit drab, it's because anything else would detract and distract from the often pixel perfect rope-work required.

It's not for everyone, but that's what makes it so good. It requires a ridiculous amount of investment on behalf of the player. It divulges nothing of the high level techniques required to finish the harder routes (though the strategy guide goes some way to address this, though i can't read my copy cus it's all in moon). There's no prescribed way to play it (making it the ultimate sandbox game!). It doesn't bill itself as an 'experience', it just is a perfectly executed set of tools for pinging a girl from A to B (or D if you've practiced hard enough) in the fastest time possible. It's the only game I've ever played that has encapsulated the joy and satisfaction of learning a musical instrument. Other games simply feel like you're pushing buttons to make stuff happen. Blam blam blam. There is a disconnect between the player and the game. Umihara Kawase forces you to learn how to move in such a fluid manner until it really does feel like you have total synergy with the game. It's the antithesis of something like Bayonetta, where you're placed in charge of a seemingly omnipotent character. You just mash buttons to blow stuff up. In Umihara Kawase, you have to earn that feeling of omnipotance, and when you do, it is a feeling unrivalled by any game I've ever played.

[Drum]

The first fighting game with a super depends on how supers are defined and how the genre is defined.

By fighting game I mean the genre started by Karate Champ, and by super a move above special moves. So, unless someone brings a proper fighting game (and not a sidescrolling beat'em up) AoF is the first game with supers and super bars. TF introducing a different charge method / super enabling condition doesn't change that AoF was first to include those mechanics in the genre.

Shanghai Kid is the direct ancestor of Famicom Hiryu no Ken:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PexyXVpzvs

and the super meter was pretty clearly inspired by the one in Punch Out!!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gumlCZPmNzA

These games can only really be recommended if people get off on weirdness and/or obscurity, as none are particularly good. Gourmet has bizarre novelty, but not much game, Psycho Dream is below average, and Super Ninja-Kun is tragically disappointing after you progress from the first stage.

you smell
shut up

[Hagane]

Does that game have special and super moves, though? Or just normals and a special?

As an aside, are the controls in Ninja Warriors Again buggy in emulation, or do they really work like that (snes9x)? They seem to have a lot of delay, especially when trying to crouch or change directions.

[BIL]

Definitely no input delay on real hardware, and I've never noticed any in ZSNES either. Haven't tried snes9X, I'd give ZS a go if you've not.

[Drum]

Does that game have special and super moves, though? Or just normals and a special?

That depends - are you moving the goalposts, or are the goalposts staying put but the entire earth is moving underneath? (I don't know)

Ninja Warriors Again is cool. I knew the arcade game but the SNES deal is something else.

[Hagane]

If the game has no super moves it then doesn't have a super bar, that's why I'm asking.

[EmperorIng]

As far as The Ninja Warriors [Again] is concerned, I thought the controls smooth as butter in ZSNES.

A thing I enjoy about the game is its classic 90s (and 80s of course!) aesthetic of making enemies as bizarre as possible. You have your Stone Cold Steve Austin thugs, your Mr. Big-esque huge dudes in classy suits, your kung-fu masters, your impish wolverine guys, your Saddam Hussein wannabes... It makes every stage fun when you are constantly bombarded by the overflow from the local loony bin.

Of course the only thing they are missing are the impossibly fly, swag pimp snipers from the arcade original.

[undamned]

If the game has no super moves it then doesn't have a super bar, that's why I'm asking.

I want to find a game that just has arbitrary bars all over the HUD and you really don't know why they are filling or what you have to do to use them up. It could just be called "Bars."
-ud

[BIL]

Just gave NWA's first stage a runthrough in ZSNES as Ninja to refresh my memory, Hagane - nope, control is sharp like razor and strong like wood. Nothing like walking into the first boss's three hit knockdown combo, taking *oof* one to the jaw and *agh* another then before he can land the boot seizing that motherfucker by the throat and crushing him with the atomic drop. FUCK YOU BOSS is what I'm thinking as his head and upper torso explode.

MX7, if I didn't already have Umihara my trousers would've been torn apart by the boner reading your post gave me. And my keyboard ruined by salty tears at passing it up. I'm still an absolute beginner but the few times I've grasped the engine's finer points it was indeed special.

I want to find a game that just has arbitrary bars all over the HUD and you really don't know why they are filling or what you have to do to use them up. It could just be called "Bars."
-ud

Hellsinker is the game for you!

[Drum]

Yeah, there are supers. You press kick and punch when your meter is full or something.
Punch Out has a special button you push.

[trap15]

I want to find a game that just has arbitrary bars all over the HUD and you really don't know why they are filling or what you have to do to use them up. It could just be called "Bars."
-ud

Hellsinker is the game for you!

Blah, you stole my joke

[BIL]

I knew I had to be quick, I was totally sweating as I looked up that URL before clicking "post!"

[Hagane]

Yeah, there are supers. You press kick and punch when your meter is full or something.
Punch Out has a special button you push.

That sounds like a special move, not a super. Normals > specials > supers. Punch Out isn't really a 2D fighting game like Karate Champ / Street Fighter and as far as I remember it doesn't have supers, just specials.

I tried Ninja Warriors Again in ZSNES and controls do seem better there than in snes9x.

[Drum]

Yeah, there are supers. You press kick and punch when your meter is full or something.
Punch Out has a special button you push.

That sounds like a special move, not a super. Normals > specials > supers. Punch Out isn't really a 2D fighting game like Karate Champ / Street Fighter and as far as I remember it doesn't have supers, just specials.

Well ok, but I don't see your math. I thought a special was just a move that required some silly input and a super was one that burned meter. Shanghai and Punch Out are the latter, which is what we are discussing. I also don't think you can talk about Shanghai Kid without talking about Punch Out, its clear inspiration, but whatever girlfriend.

[Hagane]

Supers are just more powerful specials. They usually require meter, but not necessarily (see Fatal Fury's desperation moves). Shanghai Kid requires meter for specials, but doesn't seem to have supers. As far as I know, Art of Fighting is the first to have supers, and a bar to use them. SK can be considered a direct influence though (AoF specials also consume super meter).

[AweOfShe]

I really want to check out Clock Tower now. Recommends in the same thread from fellow Silent Hill and Argento fans.

I completely forgot about Clock Tower myself. I have yet to play the SNES one, but I really did get into the later installments.

[CIT]

What are people's opinions on Sutte Hakkun? Worth the steep price of admission?

[BIL]

I tried Ninja Warriors Again in ZSNES and controls do seem better there than in snes9x.

Also keep in mind the timing aspect of its controls. Land two clean hits in short succession = execute a third quickly enough for a special. Hold down beforehand for a crouching one, or if you've got a full meter, hold up for... er, a super special. For example:

Ninja: P (connect), P (connect), then [neutral P = nunchaku] [down P = thrust kick] [up P = exploding punch]

The timing window is fairly lenient, but not more than a second or so between each input. Once you get the timing down you'll find yourself naturally smacking a couple scrubs then turning around and smashing a hard target with a special.

One of the game's best aspects is that, beyond filling the "power," "speed" and "balance" roles, each character puts their own wrinkles into the basic system. Ninja can't jump but can boost, Kama'itachi can't grab but has an overhead to punish sweeps and a unique crouch-run, Kunochi has a triangle kick air combo and probably something I don't know because I've not used her much.

Great game through and through... it's too bad Taito didn't just license their entire arcade catalogue to Natsume back then.

Goemon 2 and 4 and the best, precisely because they ditch most of the boring town/exploration bits. The latter is really quite brilliant in its presentation and breadth of ideas. Just don't expect an arcade-game-like experience, not that that's ever what Goemon was about.

Meant to say, thanks - the fourth is the one that most caught my attention, production seems absolutely lavish like the best Konami titles of that time - brought to mind the SFC Jikkyou Oshaberi Parodius. Will give it a go, I'd like at least one of them.

[Drum]

What are people's opinions on Sutte Hakkun? Worth the steep price of admission?

I didn't know it got a cart release - thought it was download-only.

[Necronopticous]

I think Umihara Kawase is very similar to a lot of STGs: you really get out of it what you put in. Someone once said (on the old ikaruga.co.uk forum that you only really start to understand Ikaruga after ~400 hours of play. Now, I haven't sunk that much time into Ikaruga, or indeed any other game, but I have with Umihara Kawase. If the controls seem clunk at first, it's because you are being given a tool-set with absolute flexibility. Consider it like learning to play the guitar. At first, your hands will numbly fumble with even the most basic chords. As time goes on and you commit these actions to muscle memory, the chords shapes become essentially subconscious. It's exactly the same with Umihara Kawase. As you become familiar with basic techniques (the Tarzan swing, the wall climb, the rocket jump), you find yourself messing around with variations of these techniques, showboating, and honing them to perfection. In the Zelda games, for example, you face an insurmountable obstacle and must obtain an item to render it passable. In Umi, you can theoretically do everything from the outset: the only thing holding you back is your skill.

As you progress, the initial flaws start to seem insignificant. Many of the more frustrating parts can be bypassed entirely. The tadpole boss is a bore, sure, but on the shortest (and in my opinion best) route you don't have to fight it at all. Most enemies can also be bypassed entirely, though it takes practice.

The graphics and music are odd. And I love them. The fuzzy black and white sea scapes are like something out of a dream. The music seems weirdly contrapuntal to the game's punitive difficulty. If the foreground graphics seem a bit drab, it's because anything else would detract and distract from the often pixel perfect rope-work required.

It's not for everyone, but that's what makes it so good. It requires a ridiculous amount of investment on behalf of the player. It divulges nothing of the high level techniques required to finish the harder routes (though the strategy guide goes some way to address this, though i can't read my copy cus it's all in moon). There's no prescribed way to play it (making it the ultimate sandbox game!). It doesn't bill itself as an 'experience', it just is a perfectly executed set of tools for pinging a girl from A to B (or D if you've practiced hard enough) in the fastest time possible. It's the only game I've ever played that has encapsulated the joy and satisfaction of learning a musical instrument. Other games simply feel like you're pushing buttons to make stuff happen. Blam blam blam. There is a disconnect between the player and the game. Umihara Kawase forces you to learn how to move in such a fluid manner until it really does feel like you have total synergy with the game. It's the antithesis of something like Bayonetta, where you're placed in charge of a seemingly omnipotent character. You just mash buttons to blow stuff up. In Umihara Kawase, you have to earn that feeling of omnipotance, and when you do, it is a feeling unrivalled by any game I've ever played.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Absolutely incredible game.

[Mortificator]

I completely forgot about Clock Tower myself. I have yet to play the SNES one, but I really did get into the later installments.

Clock Tower sounds cool, but I've heard the SNES translation patch isn't very accurate, which has diminished my interest.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Other games simply feel like you're pushing buttons to make stuff happen.

Games where I enjoyed exploiting "strict" physics: Super Monkey Ball (with the 'Cube pad) and Sky Odyssey (with analogue controller). Very different ruleset from most games, but rock-solid game design all the same.

If any 2D game makes me think of "modern" shmups (fin de siècle kind of modern) with 8-directional movement and two speeds (Hyper Duel-style), however, it's Kuru Kuru Kururin. I can totally see how shmup practice might be good for your performance in that game.

[Ganelon]

I didn't recall that arcade Hiryu no Ken had the KO meter so thanks for correcting me. I also notice I accidentally wrote that meter charged via damage; I meant that it charged via attacking. However, my bit about the early Hiryu installments not being full real-time fighters still applies.

By fighting game I mean the genre started by Karate Champ, and by super a move above special moves. So, unless someone brings a proper fighting game (and not a sidescrolling beat'em up) AoF is the first game with supers and super bars. TF introducing a different charge method / super enabling condition doesn't change that AoF was first to include those mechanics in the genre.

The issue with Ryuko is that outside of the low life requirement, there's no difference between specials and supers for all intents and purposes. They all use stamina, some specials more than others. If low life is the key, then any game with desperation attacks would count as a super as well. Does that count? Well, that's why it's a grey area.

All of the Hiryu games have 1-on-1 fighting game modes that can be selected out of the bat so they're definitely fighters. But that's sometimes not their core focus; I mentioned the sidescroller aspect to give flavor information for those who may not be aware of the pivotal but underrated series. The fighting engine has normal attacks, quite a few button combination specials (a key difference compared to Punch-Out!!'s no-special approach), and super moves that can only be pulled off with max KO meter. If you're unsure, then I'd suggest trying a Hiryu game out; the series defined the multi-genre genre. It'll also be clearer why the pseudo-turn-based design is the only reason I'm not stating that Hiryu is the definite first fighter with a super (some may consider it a proto-fighter instead of a full fighter).

As for Punch-Out!!, I don't consider that to be a fighting game any more than I consider Fight Night Champion or WWE 13 to be fighting games. But other folks are free to differ. Again, that's why when it comes to firsts, it's key to know the caveats. Karate Champ is only the first fighting game based on certain metrics; judged differently, there are a few other contenders for that title.

I want to find a game that just has arbitrary bars all over the HUD and you really don't know why they are filling or what you have to do to use them up. It could just be called "Bars."

Battle Tycoon on SFC may be what you're looking for.

[CIT]

What are people's opinions on Sutte Hakkun? Worth the steep price of admission?

I didn't know it got a cart release - thought it was download-only.

Originally, yes, the various versions of the game were only downloadable through Satellaview, but the final version got a cart release as one of the last SFC games in 1999:

[trap15]

That is absolutely the cutest cover art I've ever seen.

[andsuchisdeath]

Awesome thread.

Everything Natsume developed on the SNES is gold. The Ninja Warriors Again being my favorite.


As far as beat 'em ups go...I'll say Ghost Chaser Densei is king. In the engine you have, super moves, juggles and on-the-ground attacks. Very fresh and cutting edge for a 1994 console beat 'em up. Anyway you cut it, the Denjin Makaii series rules.

Final Fight Tough has been mentioned, and it deserves a much better rep then it gets. Remember, this isn't a CPS1 beat' em up...so you can't expect a "true" Final Fight feel. That being said, the combo engine is above-par. Most of the sprites are well drawn, the music is decent, and the special/super moves are great.

I guess I can put it this way. Final Fight was a ground breaking film in theaters.
Final Fight 2 is a made-for-tv sequel.
Final Fight 3 is a much more ambitious and exciting made-for-tv movie.

[Drum]

As for Punch-Out!!, I don't consider that to be a fighting game any more than I consider Fight Night Champion or WWE 13 to be fighting games. But other folks are free to differ. Again, that's why when it comes to firsts, it's key to know the caveats. Karate Champ is only the first fighting game based on certain metrics; judged differently, there are a few other contenders for that title.

I wasn't saying that Punch Out is a fighting game - certainly by my own standards it isn't - just that you can't have a discussion about super meters in fighting games without at least mentioning it. Hell, mechanically, modern fighting games have more in common with Punch Out than Karate Champ even setting aside the meter.

[drauch]

Sutte Hakkun is fantastic. Worth the price? Yeah, if you can find it cart only, as the case jumps it up quite a bit like every other uncommon SFC game. I'd also really recommend Clock Tower and SOS, BIL. Two of my favorites on the console that I sadly still don't own. Clock Tower really screams Argento, especially since the main girly looks just like Jennifer Connelly from Phenomena.

[Marble]

Final Fight Tough would be one of the genre's best examples if it just had more fucking enemies on screen.

I don't mind the first Ganbare Goemon. Even when you memorize most of the town stages and can get them out of the way quickly, they are still very boring. I haven't played the game in a fair while but I recall in one of the later town stages you need a certain amount of money to buy access to the next level and a few times I actually had to sit around killing the same enemies for money, like you would in a JRPG or some shit. I think the power-up system is annoying too, your fully powered weapon (the yo-yo) has a weird hitbox that can make it awkward to hit enemies that are near you. Even the sidescrolling stages are really not that fun because they are so easy. I really love the game's aesthetic, I think it's beautiful (bar the main character's sprite) so I guess if you got rid of the town segments and increased the challenge, that'd be one for the 'dream game hacks' thread.