I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscellanies

[Mortificator]

It's not impossible to break up a game so that it is very taxing on a player to attempt a section, but allow it to be finished. The issue of pacing comes down to how long the game is designed to be played in one sitting. With the handheld devices out now, you can surely choose to have suspended play or go to chunked gameplay (as in many online games), so it's just an open choice. They service different gameplay designs, but I don't see one as "better" than the other.

That's true, and you see those different approaches within arcade platformers as well. Some are a series of discrete challenges (Ghosts 'n Goblins), some are whole-game runs to be 1CCed (Strider), some are intended to be tackled with a limited number of credits (Haunted Castle). Makaimura does things that would be poor design in a one-attempt game, but Makaimura isn't a one-attempt game.

[Paradigm]

Makaimura does things that would be poor design in a one-attempt game, but Makaimura isn't a one-attempt game.

It's not a one-attempt game since it gives you extra lives for when you mess up. It is a one-credit game however, hence the "Game Over" message when you run out of lives.

[RGC]

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[Skykid]

The homing crossbow is a deathtrap. Its shots have a tendency of getting stuck flying in circles for a few seconds every now and then leaving you completely defenseless. It`s an absolute no go for a 1CC. Stick with the knife instead.

hmm, from my limited experience daggers and red arremers don't mix well. The tactic I sussed out with crossbow is pretty straightforward, on the other hand, and nearly always delivers a hit. Also, the crossbow makes the earlier bosses much quicker and easier to dispatch.

JI wasn't very clear about the weapon he was talking about. I can't remember if it's the upgraded version of a specific weapon, but there's a homing thingy that, as mentioned, doesn't work properly and ends up getting you killed (like most weapons in the game tbh.) Sticking to the regular crossbow (that fires in diagonals) is perfectly good for getting through the whole affair up to the Goddess Bracelet in loop 2. I've seen superplays that favour the knife, but personally I found the Arremers too tricky with it.

There's no credit conditions for reaching the second loop, just grab every single money bag you can - you'll need the credits for loop 2 stage 7 (that should answer your question about the necessity of points, too.) I'm looking forward to seeing you post here again to share your experiences when you get there!

Skykid already touched on this, but I want to reinforce that strict 1-credit play isn't meaningful in games with well-spaced checkpoints and no bombs. Whether a player has just reached Ghosts 'n Goblins stage 6 loop 2 on his first credit or after continuing a hundred times, he's facing an identical challenge that takes an identical level of skill to get past.

I'm not surprised that Marc's still working on the first game after 20 years of one-at-a-time; he only gets the opportunity for actual practice a small percent of each play, the rest is just redoing what he already knows how to do.

Disagree heavily.

One word: Consistency.

It definitely takes more skill to complete all challenges in a game back to back, without messing up once, then it does to do it in bite sized format, with no pressure and infinite margin of error.

Also what Marble said. Infinite continues = no excitement.

You guys seem to be misunderstanding what the other is saying. Learning G n' G is perfectly acceptable just the way it is: limited credits and stiff challenge. By the time you're making it through the final stages, you'll be doing most of the game on a 1cc anyway because you've spent so much time learning it. I 1cc'd Cho's first loop quite easily once I had enough attempts. End of the second loop however, nothing is guaranteed. People who have 2-Alled the game on YT must have taken a number of attempts to clinch their run, simply because the conditions are so erratic.

It's not a pre-requisite that any platform/action game should be 1cc'd - that's a goal you can take on if you feel passionate enough about it. Some games I fancy clearing in one go, others I'll just take the clear hook or by crook. Certainly don't feel the need for a cold shower afterwards.

[RGC]

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[Squire Grooktook]

Yes, I agree. And believe me, I'm not against learning anything with infinite credits. My post was mainly a response to the statement that "1cc'ing the whole game and completing it with infinite continues require the same amount of skill" which I still disagree with. You can get more consistent with these games by learning the stages, but it's still a great deal more difficult to essentially perfect the game by clearing the whole thing in one go then clearing them individually. I'v memorized Contra 3 in and out, and while I can in theory perfect every part of the game individually, it's still a lot more difficult for me to no miss the whole game and takes a lot more attempts.

[Ed Oscuro]

I actually just noticed the homing weapon doing just that, circling forever around little anklebiters that don't even do damage, in Ultimate.

Stage 2, on beginner, just tries my patience. I'll turn the PSP on for a few minutes, try to get through the area without dying, then see another shiny object and get distracted.

[CStarFlare]

After spending a couple of days with Ultimate, I've come to really love/hate it. I generally love games that encourage you to go back and find secrets in previously cleared areas, but GnG difficulty is hugely discouraging when trying to do so. I spent about an hour last night trying [failing] to get a ring that requires special armor which can only be found in a couple of stages (none of the ones you need it in) and takes one hit to lose. Progress felt great when I was making it, though.

I'll keep at it until my copy of the Capcom Classics Collection comes in. Then I'll trade my PSP for a real console.

[Edmond Dantes]

I'll keep at it until my copy of the Capcom Classics Collection comes in. Then I'll trade my PSP for a real console.

The PSP = The most underrated portable ever.

Seriously, I never hear anyone like the thing and it lost out to Nintendo's gimmicky DS (a portable I'd never want to own, TBH)

[Squire Grooktook]

The Ds is worth owning just for the Castlevania's honestly. And Contra 4. And Etrian Odyssey. And Mario and Luigi. And....*runs through whole game collection*

[Marc]

Well I made ST5 on Ghosts but it was one of those runs where things really fell for me - for instance the last Arrears on stages 3 and 4 went to ground and tried to rush me, rather than zipping around and following me to the boss as usually happens. Can do 1 and 2 blindfolded, 3 still sometimes fucks up as I can't consistently deal with the last red bastard, and I'm still working out 4's second half - run like fuck for the most part. Five is brutal though, and this is where I think I gave up last time I made a serious attempt to clear the game - around the time of the PAL release of the Generations comp on PS1.

[RGC]

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[Skykid]

Cho - lost my last life on stage 3 boss, after first friggin' arremer took two from me (was holding dagger at that point). I then used a ton of credits getting to loop 2, and switched it off on stage 3.

I did discover on the final stage that the red bastards are not impossible to fend off with daggers, but it takes a bit of luck, green armour, and lots of jump-shoot spamming. The battle continues..

It's worth attempting to just outrun the stage 3 Aremmer, hop to the spiral column and attempt to take him out there. He forms the stage 3 checkpoint, so if he ends up killing you on the column, you won't have to fight him again. I would usually run in, throw a few crossbows to displace him, run underneath and maybe chuck a few more behind, and then mad double jump to the spiral.

[RGC]

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[Skykid]

Funnily enough, the second time he killed me, he sent me flying to my doom between the rock and the first tower. I fell at enough of an angle that my pile of bones just crossed the checkpoint. Small mercies! I quite like the loop 2 ring weap, but imagine doing the end boss with it's a bit tough.

You mean the goddess bracelet? Where did you find it so early, I thought you only got to 2-3? Normally it appears first on stage 6 iirc.

You have no idea of the hell that awaits you with that crappy thing. Like I said, check back when you're on the last stage of loop 2: trying to use it there is apparently the toughest section of any GnG game.

[Edmond Dantes]

You mean the goddess bracelet? Where did you find it so early, I thought you only got to 2-3? Normally it appears first on stage 6 iirc.

The Goddess Bracelet can appear in ANY treasure chest after you've gotten all the armors and the shield. Hell, you can get it on stage 1 if you don't take a hit.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Like I said, check back when you're on the last stage of loop 2: trying to use it there is apparently the toughest section of any GnG game.

I wouldn`t say it`s the most difficult even in Cho(that would be part 2 of stage 4 on Professional). Beating both Astaroth and Nebiroth with the bracelet may seem like a hard task at first, but with some practice you`ll be able to do it on your first try almost every time. There`s no randomness in that part at all - just follow the pattern and don`t screw up. The two Satans in the arcade GnG, on the other hand... Now that`s tough. The bastards swoop at you at an incredible speed and position themselves very randomly after that. I don`t think anyone can consistently clear that part without dieing.

[Skykid]

You mean the goddess bracelet? Where did you find it so early, I thought you only got to 2-3? Normally it appears first on stage 6 iirc.

The Goddess Bracelet can appear in ANY treasure chest after you've gotten all the armors and the shield. Hell, you can get it on stage 1 if you don't take a hit.

Huh, I didn't know that. I never looked for it since I had my method down with the crossbow. Honestly though, it's shit for arremers, and the super plays I've seen leave it until the last moment as well.

Like I said, check back when you're on the last stage of loop 2: trying to use it there is apparently the toughest section of any GnG game.

I wouldn`t say it`s the most difficult even in Cho(that would be part 2 of stage 4 on Professional). Beating both Astaroth and Nebiroth with the bracelet may seem like a hard task at first, but with some practice you`ll be able to do it on your first try almost every time. There`s no randomness in that part at all - just follow the pattern and don`t screw up. The two Satans in the arcade GnG, on the other hand... Now that`s tough. The bastards swoop at you at an incredible speed and position themselves very randomly after that. I don`t think anyone can consistently clear that part without dieing.

I just took the comment made by someone earlier in the thread, hence "apparently" (I've only been through Cho and the WS game).

I wouldn't ever play on professional I don't think, but in terms of defaults stage 7 L2 w/goddess bracelet is by far the toughest part of the game! The time limit becomes a meaningful thing, the arremers are horrible, playing bullet hell with those bird neck things and then a perfect jump timing to get over the random spawning ghosts. And you basically need to do it without taking a hit because fighting Astaroth powered down takes forever. It's not that you can't learn his pattern, it's just horrible to fight with that bracelet because you need to get so damn close to land a hit: it's really a curse.

[RGC]

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[Skykid]

Oops I meant bracelet not ring. I picked it up in the very first chest on stage 1. I found it nice to use for the first few stages. Bet I would still die on the first Arremer though...

Honestly, I suggest steering well clear of that thing. If you're comfortable with the crossbow or knife, make it your aim to never lose it and just repeat the loops. When you get to the last stage and pick it up, that's a fresh hell worth putting off. See how you fare with the arremer there.

[RGC]

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[Edmond Dantes]

compared to Ninja Gaiden where I might as well turn the game off when I die, or even if I lose the jump-slash.

Been honestly attempting to beat the first Ninja Gaiden, and I'm wondering if you're playing a modified version of the game or something, because you lose sub-weapons at the beginning of each Act anyway so there's no point in trying to hold on to a specific one.

I always felt the NG is almost Gradius-like in that it has to be one-lifed, though it gives you all the tools you need to do that.

I'm not finding this to be true. Getting to the final boss isn't impossible, no matter when or how many times you fuck up.

It's not like Gradius, where some sections become unsurvivable if you lose your options and weapons.

That being said, part of the reason I claim NG is unfair is because it's iffy and most of the deaths are for entirely cheap reasons/hits you can't avoid. A problem Gradius and Makaimura simply do not have.

[BIL]

That being said, part of the reason I claim NG is unfair is because it's iffy and most of the deaths are for entirely cheap reasons/hits you can't avoid. A problem Gradius and Makaimura simply do not have.

I'm going to be an elitist prick (my credentials) here and ask you what in the sweet fuck you're talking about on both counts. :/ Be specific. I literally one-credited NG1 last night while waiting for the oven to preheat, with a couple of incredibly dumb misses going after the 1UP in 4-1 (I was very hungry). If it was as shoddy as you make it out to be I'd take a ballpeen to the cartridge. :/

[Marble]

Been honestly attempting to beat the first Ninja Gaiden, and I'm wondering if you're playing a modified version of the game or something, because you lose sub-weapons at the beginning of each Act anyway so there's no point in trying to hold on to a specific one.

Well technically I am playing a modified version of the game, the PAL version. Which is slightly slower and Ryu's jump-arc is different - there are a handful of jumps that can't be made in the US/JP releases, but that doesn't really come into play for a normal clear. Just look up a youtube vid of someone beating the game. You have to memorize where all the items that give you sub-weapon stock, then come up with a route that let's you get them all while stopping as much as possible (generally), then get the jump-slash. It's pretty memorization based. I've seen people wing it with whatever items just like you can in NR2 but I found that super hard myself.

[BIL]

Well technically I am playing a modified version of the game, the PAL version. Which is slightly slower and Ryu's jump-arc is different - there are a handful of jumps that can't be made in the US/JP releases, but that doesn't really come into play for a normal clear.

Oh, interesting - I didn't realise you were playing Shadow Warriors (I'm playing Ninja Ryukenden, but language aside it's identical to Ninja Gaiden as far as I can tell playing both back-to-back). Had no idea there was an engine change in PAL.

I tend to just compulsively grab up weapons outside of a couple instances where specific picks make life easier, but there aren't any particularly nasty weapon/checkpoint matchups. A big tip I'd suggest to anyone playing off the cuff is to recognise just how vicious the game's enemy respawning is. Every backward step will be punished by it. OTOH enemies can never enter the screen on their own, or respawn once you've scrolled their spawn point onscreen. So inching forward picking off enemies individually is often a much better idea than retreating if you're not able to just rip through a given obstacle.

The infamous pit jump in 6-2 involving a dagger chucker and an eagle is a good example of this. Back up between kills and you'll rapidly dig your own grave, edge forward and it's easily doable with no subweapon whatsoever.

[Edmond Dantes]

That being said, part of the reason I claim NG is unfair is because it's iffy and most of the deaths are for entirely cheap reasons/hits you can't avoid. A problem Gradius and Makaimura simply do not have.

I'm going to be an elitist prick (my credentials) here and ask you what in the sweet fuck you're talking about on both counts. :/ Be specific.

Now, I bow to your obvious superiority, but since you asked...

You want "Iffy," well... the restart points. Replaying the room immediately prior to a boss if you die makes sense. Replaying the entire subsection if you use a continue makes sense. Replaying the entire subsection if you die... doesn't. And replaying an entire ACT if you either die or use a continue on the boss (when the room immediately before just takes you back to the beginning of that room) is fucking cheap.

As for cheapness... those guys who bounce a bit and then lunge forward and punch. Just one isn't too bad, but if there's more than one, then you can't let them connect even once or else you're gonna get bounced around until you have no energy left.

Ryu has a bad bad BAD habit of automatically latching onto walls, even just from being knocked back. There's at least one area where this makes it almost impossible to jump over an enemy whose projectiles you need to avoid.

I've noticed Ryu has a bad habit of not turning around when I want him to (and no, my controller isn't broken). So I often find myself slashing in the wrong direction, or doing this weird "backwards jump" that has no fucking momentum. There are times where I miss a jump entirely because of this.

As I said before, the hit detection seems iffy--there are times where I swear my slash connected by the enemy didn't die, or I took a hit. Oddly, this seems to be reversed on the bosses--I tend to hit them even if my sword doesn't actually connect (so the bosses are often easier than the actual levels). It's especially noticable when dealing with those damn birds.

And of course, all the deathtraps. You know, you have to clear a narrow platform and then jump to it while a guy and a bird are also coming at you... little time to think. Of course, nine times out of ten, a bird spawns in during the scroll and knocks you into a pit...

Okay, I know you're prolly thinking "So you hate it because its hard." Think that if you want, although I'd beg you to explain why I'm not complaining about Gradius or Makaimura if you're gonna go that route (and no, it's not because I can beat them--I can't. But I can respect that its entirely my fault in both cases.)

[Squire Grooktook]

Honestly, I never found the Ninja Gaiden games to be that memorable. I mean, they're not bad, but they never had that special something that makes me come back to it year after year, like Ghouls and Ghosts. They have that weird..."limited" feel some old games back then did. Like I beat them once, and then just forgot about them. Nothing really compels me to go back. I guess you could play for a 1cc/no miss or try to speed run, but eh...

[Marble]

Had no idea there was an engine change in PAL.

Yes, just one, but it's extremely insignificant. The jump arc is altered so Ryu moves greater distances, and I also think it moves faster in comparison to the enemies. I've played a fair bit of all versions (though PAL the most because I prefer playing on a console) so I'll explain some practical examples of the differences in the PAL version using my own play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcA-f7dFjp4

The commando enemies who start following at 2:50 cannot be outrun in NR, you actually have to turn around and slash them. This doesn't really add any challenge, it's just interesting.

At 7:35 I jump right onto the ladder. In NR, you have to land on the ground, kill the enemy then climb the ladder. It might actually be possible to land on the ladder in NR, but a lot lower, so in reality you'll always hit the enemy.

There's a pit at 14:07 that I get over the normal way, by jumping on the above platform. But you can just kill the enemy below and jump straight across. This is possible in a few pits in 6-2 and 6-3 if I recall correctly, but I never do it because you could miss out on good subweapon stock. However, it's probably the reason that a lot of SDA runners played the PAL version for a long time.

Another interesting thing about NR (all versions) is that while it's a pretty memorization based game, all projectiles with looping arcs are extremely random. After playing the game so many times, I'm sure that the exact arc of the projectiles, how many are thrown, the time between the next one - all these things are completely random. BIL, I totally love that every thread where we quote each other turns into a NR thread.

[BIL]

Now, I bow to your obvious superiority, but since you asked... (snip)

No need for passive aggression, I don't enjoy internet slapfights and it won't make you any better at anything. Point is it's not a slipshod, unfair game as you say. This isn't a touchy-feely personal opinion thing. NG's controls and collision are impeccably tight, and there are no unforeseeable deaths in its level or enemy designs. What you need is to observe and learn from your mistakes. Practice. Bulletpointing your complaints:

*By "iffy" I assumed you meant something indistinct about collision, control, etc. I don't care about the restart points. The game gives you unlimited credits and clearly you need the free practice they enable. The stages are all pretty short and bosses are consistently lame. I can't imagine anyone clearing Daimakaimura yet choking on NG, other than through extreme unfamiliarity / bad learning habits. Same old story with hardcore games of all stripes including our beloved schmups.

*If a boxer or any other enemy hits you, use the significant recovery period to reposition and kill them. The scenario you describe will only happen if you panic and run about aimlessly, setting yourself up to get socked again. Better yet, learn the enemies' patterns so you don't get hit often if at all! Boxers and those creepy things that crouch, then leap after you? Get just close enough then let 'em have it with the sword. Don't get within their striking range without your sword being out and ready to kill.

*You're going to have to name that one area where Ryu gets batted onto a wall, I just wasted twenty minutes or so on a 1-miss run only for NEStopia to not record anything and I can't recall it. At any rate Ryu can't grab a wall without leaving the ground, which leaves getting batted onto one by enemies, which will allow you a recovery period. See above, it sounds like you're getting hammered, then flailing about, then getting swatted again when the recovery is up.

*The only possible explanation for the bizarre control problems you mention is faulty hardware of some nature. Otherwise you're flailing, sorry. I've been playing this game for 20 years without coming across uncooperative controls. I played Alisia Dragoon and Raf World for 20 minutes apiece and noticed their horrible turnaround lags and other control quirks. I KNOW THIS STUFF MANG seriously.

*See above. The sword doesn't come out quite instantly on the ground and has a recovery period, both amounting to a split-second apiece. This is so you can't mash the sword Strider Hiryuu-style but must time the attack with a (small) degree of care. In the air it's quicker and less strict, so I like to jump before whacking stuff. If you're facing death by knockback or some other reason, and you're not feeling confident in your timing, use a subweapon.

*This is a common misconception about the way NG's enemy spawning works, made worse by conventional casual wisdom like the recent AVGN video. There is one jump in the entire game, in 6-3, where a flying enemy spawns while you're in mid-leap, and it won't reach you before you land. Every other jump, get near the edge and voila - the enemy will spawn before you leap. Let it get close and jump over it. When you've mastered the stage you'll be able to leap without breaking your stride, clearing the gap and enemy in one go. If you pause, then jump without looking, as a novice might, then yes: you'll probably smack into the spawned enemy and die. That's a mistake, learn from it.

*You've got me all wrong, NG's not a very hard game in my book at all - just one that expects you to be observant and to learn from your mistakes. You hate it because you need to evaluate what's killing you instead of flailing blindly at it for the 1CC. I don't know why you'd accept beatings from Gradius and Makaimura games gladly but get mad at NG. I'd guess you're failing to clear them for exactly the same reason, lack of observation.

Honestly, I never found the Ninja Gaiden games to be that memorable. I mean, they're not bad, but they never had that special something that makes me come back to it year after year, like Ghouls and Ghosts. They have that weird..."limited" feel some old games back then did. Like I beat them once, and then just forgot about them. Nothing really compels me to go back. I guess you could play for a 1cc/no miss or try to speed run, but eh...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone's wrong to dislike this game. Just that the specific charges of "unfairness" or "cheapness" don't wash.

I've played a fair bit of all versions (though PAL the most because I prefer playing on a console) so I'll explain some practical examples of the differences in the PAL version using my own play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcA-f7dFjp4

Thanks for the replay and writeup! I love this kind of stuff, will enjoy watching that.

Another interesting thing about NR (all versions) is that while it's a pretty memorization based game, all projectiles with looping arcs are extremely random. After playing the game so many times, I'm sure that the exact arc of the projectiles, how many are thrown, the time between the next one - all these things are completely random.

Concurred. It never feels entirely safe approaching a "lobber" enemy type. I prefer to rush in and kill them, taking a hit if necessary, rather than prolong the haphazard pattern and potentially get hit by an unlucky choice anyway.

BIL, I totally love that every thread where we quote each other turns into a NR thread.

Me too.

Just so I can attempt to put my e-money where my e-cakehole is, I'll try to sort out some kind of replay or at least .inp file of Ninja Ryukenden. I tried already but it totally cocked up. I need to learn from my mistakes and do better!

[Edmond Dantes]

Now, I bow to your obvious superiority, but since you asked... (snip)

No need for passive aggression,

I wasn't being passive-aggressive.