The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Skykid »

stryc9 wrote: Funny thing is, I think on Sega 16 people claim a game beaten even if they use credits, or so was my understanding. I realize these are console games and not arcade, but what is the general consensus here regarding what constitutes a clear on some of the more popular titles?
Because of the way console games often have limited continues, it's still considered a clear if you get through on what's allotted to you. I think console games are rewarding enough when structured this way. Take Rockman for instance: you just wouldn't bother with a 1cc unless you were a die hard Rockman fan, the game is challenging enough to beat no matter how many times you need to restart.

The distinction between clearing or finishing a game and 1cc'ing a game is totally different. I think 1cc'ing platform action games/beat-em-ups etc is a choice based on how much an individual gets out of achieving that particular goal - but it's by no means a prerequisite.

Shmups are a total exception to the rule, however. They're meant to be 1cc'd, there's no argument in it.
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by njiska »

Skykid wrote:Because of the way console games often have limited continues, it's still considered a clear if you get through on what's allotted to you. I think console games are rewarding enough when structured this way. Take Rockman for instance: you just wouldn't bother with a 1cc unless you were a die hard Rockman fan, the game is challenging enough to beat no matter how many times you need to restart.

Shmups are a total exception to the rule, however. They're meant to be 1cc'd, there's no argument in it.
I agree and I think you can narrow it down to simple design. Most shumups you can reach the end simply by putting credits in the machine. You don't even have to play as everything, even bosses, is usually on a timer that will eventually be reached. There's no challenge in completing the game that way and as such you've cleared nothing. No obstacles were overcome.

Now look at Rockman/Mega Man. You have to the beat the stage and robot master to progress. No amount of continues will get you to the end unless you learn to overcome the obstacle. When you reach the end you still overcame the challenge. It just took you a lot of tries and frankly the game is designed around this. You are expected to die and use trial and error to figure out the right weapons to use to beat the masters.

Ultimately though what you consider clearing is up to you.
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by BIL »

Might as well ask this here too - does anyone know if Tengen's Japanese Mega Drive cartridges are known for shoddy manufacturing quality? As in sudden deaths / malfunctions, etc. The stories of Grind Stormer (Genesis) carts either dying or turning up DOA are well-known - just wondering if it's isolated to that game, or its region. There's a handful of their Japanese carts I want and they're all pretty expensive.
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

Skykid wrote: Shmups are a total exception to the rule, however. They're meant to be 1cc'd, there's no argument in it.
Not sure about Compile shmups, though. I didn't even consider 1cc-ing one of them. None feels like a coin-op shooter neither.
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by BIL »

As far as I'm concerned, whatever the genre, if you're seeing the phrase "Game Over" at least once in a playthrough, calling the game done, beaten, cleared etc is premature. Whether it's a coin-op or not doesn't enter into it for me. After all:

"That's it man, game over man, game over!" - Pvt. Hudson

However, I don't care for competitive dickwaving over gaming, so I don't care about others' exact criteria for "console clearing." If I get good enough at any game to finish it without using continues, it's because I enjoyed it enough to do so.
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by FIL »

louisg wrote:
Drum wrote:
Ruldra wrote:I played Vectorman for the first time ever when I got the Ultimate Genesis Collection...didn't like it one bit. Especially hated the lack of autofire, my hands were sore after a while. I have no idea why it's considered a classic.
It's not just you.
I felt the same way. I got to some level where I was in a cavern collecting those shiny things and decided to throw in the towel. There seems to have been a crop of very slick but bland platformers (like Donkey Kong Country) leading into the next generation: Good graphics programming including a nice big feel and smooth-yet-zippy camera movements, but not a lot of meat to the gameplay.
I can't get on with Vectorman either. Yeah it's very well presented but it just isn't very interesting. I agree with Donkey Kong Country too, although I think that was better than Vectorman.
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Ed Oscuro »

BIL wrote:Might as well ask this here too - does anyone know if Tengen's Japanese Mega Drive cartridges are known for shoddy manufacturing quality? As in sudden deaths / malfunctions, etc. The stories of Grind Stormer (Genesis) carts either dying or turning up DOA are well-known - just wondering if it's isolated to that game, or its region. There's a handful of their Japanese carts I want and they're all pretty expensive.
I don't know. "G-- V" (I assume that's one you want) is one I'd like to be able to report on, but it's always been expensive.
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Leandro »

Ganelon wrote:I'd be careful with Assault Suit Leynos. I can't stand that game...
Why?
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by blackoak »

njiska wrote:Now look at Rockman/Mega Man. You have to the beat the stage and robot master to progress. No amount of continues will get you to the end unless you learn to overcome the obstacle. When you reach the end you still overcame the challenge. It just took you a lot of tries and frankly the game is designed around this. You are expected to die and use trial and error to figure out the right weapons to use to beat the masters.
Checkpoint shmups can be like this too, and in fact, I prefer to not stress out over credit feeding on them (unless I'm trying for a 1cc on a specific game as a challenge). If you have a bomb stock that gets replenished on respawn it can unbalance things though.
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by stryc9 »

Alright, time to nerd out over these new MD/MCD acquisitions:

Thunder Force IV : I still think the level design is better in III, at least until later on. And the graphics and sprite count is to the point where the console struggles to keep up with what is being displayed, especially if you have CLAW active. Despite this, still obviously an awesome game but III still beats it out, IMO.
Be interesting to see the Saturn comp with no slowdown.

MUSHA Aleste: Technically very impressive game, especially from 1990. The scaling effects are really well done, like when the metal panels fall away and explode at the bottom of that awesomely paralaxed canyon. Bit easy, but I'm sure most people know that going in.

Denin Aleste: The CD Aleste game looks and sounds great and has some wicked levels (like the tunnel section) but has been criticized in the past for not looking as striking as it's predecessor.
There seems to be more repeated textures and the colours on show are more muted.
The grittier palette may be an artistic choice, but at a guess I would say the repeating tiles would be due to the limited RAM of the Mega CD.

Still looks beautiful though, and plays even better. Harder than MUSHA.

Silpheed: It's not a great game and it never was, I had it years ago and remember being distinctly underwhelmed.
It's kinda got some euroshmup sensibilities going on, and to me the control never did feel 100% right, but it does pick up in later stages like the one made out of hexagons - graphically impressive even today IMO and the FMV is more interactive here too.
An interesting addition to the collection nonetheless.

I wanna pick up some more shooters for Mega CD. Got Keio and Bari Arm in my sights, but what about Lords of Thunder? Was there a Japanese release of this or no?
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

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I'm mulling over getting Musha Aleste - it gets really hectic and fun around the "huge battleships" stage, overloading with signature Compile enemy-ramming action against a constant barrage of Fast Aimed Shots™. But getting there can be a bit of a drag with the questionably slow pacing in the first two stages. I can't dislike them entirely given the wonderful chunky+fierce graphics and killer YM2612 metal soundtrack, though.
stryc9 wrote:Thunder Force IV : I still think the level design is better in III, at least until later on. And the graphics and sprite count is to the point where the console struggles to keep up with what is being displayed, especially if you have CLAW active. Despite this, still obviously an awesome game but III still beats it out, IMO.
Be interesting to see the Saturn comp with no slowdown.
You can get an idea of how it looks+plays by watching Icarus's no-miss of the TF Gold Pack 2 version, available here at superplay. Smooth as all hell! Tecno Soft did a really good job with both Gold Packs, barring some minor audio compromises (redbook streamed audio in GP1, slightly weak emulated audio in GP2 - actually, I vastly prefer the Saturn TFIV's audio, since the music never bogs down like the MD version's).
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

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Just played a session of Mercs Original Mode... outstanding game
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Ed Oscuro »

I mentioned these in the "what're you playing?" thread, but thought I'd give them the traditional going-over here.


The Berenstain Bears' Camping Adventure - you better believe it. Just a simple sidescrolling platformer with mostly rambling, pointless-feeling levels, and lots of solid colors. If you decide to play all the way through, I suggest getting the mine level out of the way first. Then the (super uglyl) fishing level. The remaining levels are generally more interesting, but by that point I was much less keen on collecting everything. For what it is, it's actually competent enough (strictly speaking), but I was actually hoping it'd be an edutainment game. The first level I played - the cave - had me interested for a while in that it was clear that there were plenty of hidden areas (although unremarkable in of themselves, the game loves the fake wall trick) and many items didn't seem reachable. The last level is kind of interesting at times. I played as Sister Bear (the pink one) and I gotta say, the animation in this game is pretty great! However, there's little challenge. The hidden bonus levels (look for an animated blue halo in the air; it's a wormhole) are all varied, but it's just item collecting. Some of the levels have you fending off enemies to grab items, sometimes using them as springboards to reach high items - you're invincible, but still stunnable - and others are basically Donkey Kong Country bonus levels. Certainly not terrible, but no reason to play the game, either (they would have fit better in a better game, like Sony Imagesoft's Aladdin). I assume I missed at least a few of these bonus games; I think there's usually only one per level, although in one of the late levels there might have been two. Picking up shamrock items in the last level is super pointless because there's no end-of-level bonus lives or a necessity for them. Although the game is supposed to be low-violence, you definitely can throw rocks at everybody and everything; the game just calls these "tools." There are two other tools - a bug net that doesn't capture anything but butterflies (maybe useful for capturing butterflies on one level, Nature Trail, but they can all be captured by jumping into them), and a mining pick on the cave level, used to collapse thin sections of wall. Picking up the net is a terrible idea because it leaves you without a ranged attack. Get a rock, and throw it at everything that moves - that's what I learned from this game.

I also started Beyond Oasis (again). I very quickly passed my last stopping-off point (I might have a savestate somewhere) and now I'm rushing through the levels. I beat Volcano (twice, nearly, because I'm dumb and savestated when the boss had exactly one hit's worth of health left the first time, but in the middle of him connecting a killing shot) and now I'm in the next dungeon - looks like I need to take another trek outside to get the shadow active again. Fairly fun game, but the health stuff is a bother, and I have to admit getting tired of dealing with the endless enemies. Somersault kick looks cool but never seems to activate when I want it, always when I don't (i.e. on enemies that are moving away). I am definitely savestate abusing the hell outta the game. Although it intends to be a tougher, more serious gameplay experience than Secret of Evermore, I'm not sure I'd place it even that high on my personal favorites list, although it does quite good (both games have some fantastic music, but SoE has something about it - the SNES sound chip - that Beyond Oasis doesn't). I've been playing only with the dagger (really, the game just about forces it). Dealing with the inventory and needing to be right there when heart containers drop is a bother, although perhaps not as much of a bother as multi-level areas involving dropping down and backtracking. My primary impression is that this game is much shorter than I had thought (even with the promise of infinite item hunting and the arenas).

I also started up Steel Empire (actually the beta ROM) to get an idea of that. Pretty interesting but tiny ships (I guess that's OK) and extremely tiny rocks or something being thrown at my ship from the background (that's definitely not OK).
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by stryc9 »

Ed Oscuro wrote:The Berenstain Bears' Camping Adventure - you better believe it.


I'm starting to worry about you Ed :wink:

Ed Oscuro wrote:- the SNES sound chip -
Oh no you didn't.
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Nintendon't sound too bad :mrgreen:

Beyond Oasis sounds good enough (I have one of the dungeon themes going through headphones right now), although I think there could've been more tunes for this one. SoE's sound and visuals all tied together nicely to create a somewhat forbidding landscape and the sense of desolation or loss. Beyond Oasis almost sounds goofy at times (like this track). Totally different league, still, than the Bearanstain Bears' music which isn't bad but copypastas the graduation music (the boring part from graduations; the real thing starts out brilliantly).

I also figured out what I really dislike about Beyond Oasis.

a.) No idea what's going on (whoa, all of a sudden I can regenerate magic in dungeons, why?)
b.) Every jump has to be pixel perfect, including on moving platforms; ledge edges are slippery and you often fall before you think you've gotten to the edge (the reverse of many games which let you stand on nothing)
c.) This game loves its moving platforms
d.) Totally obtuse level design (yep, it turns out you should NOT go back outside the dungeon; I knew it would reset the dungeon, but I was just missing a corridor entrance - if there ain't a wall, you ought to try to go in).
e.) Spikes must push you back - in fact, every obstacle should juggle you repeatedly
f.) Garbage helper spirit AI that meanders around aimlessly when you need shit done (thankfully, bombs can light campfires)
and finally...
g.) Spamming the armlet spirit pickup over and over again at a tiny, intermittent drip from the ceiling because you know that's the only way you're getting the water spirit here.

This crap actually makes me respect the Zelda series more.

Still, watching Efrit effortlessly turn zombies into ash is pretty lovely.
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Kiken »

stryc9 wrote: Thunder Force IV : I still think the level design is better in III, at least until later on. And the graphics and sprite count is to the point where the console struggles to keep up with what is being displayed, especially if you have CLAW active. Despite this, still obviously an awesome game but III still beats it out, IMO.
Be interesting to see the Saturn comp with no slowdown.
The options are actually called CRAW (Constituted Ray Art Weapon).
stryc9 wrote:I wanna pick up some more shooters for Mega CD. Got Keio and Bari Arm in my sights, but what about Lords of Thunder? Was there a Japanese release of this or no?
There is no Japanese Mega-CD release of Winds/Lords of Thunder. Keio is a solid cute-em-up (the game can be a bit merciless in spots) and Bari-Arm is about the closest the M-CD got to having a Thunder Force (not quite in the same league as Technosoft's venerable series, but pretty good in its own right).
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Picking up Winds for Mega CD seems useless to me - the Super CD version looks better (and I think it sounds better too), look up a comparison to see what you think.
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by TransatlanticFoe »

Kiken wrote:
stryc9 wrote: Thunder Force IV : I still think the level design is better in III, at least until later on. And the graphics and sprite count is to the point where the console struggles to keep up with what is being displayed, especially if you have CLAW active. Despite this, still obviously an awesome game but III still beats it out, IMO.
Be interesting to see the Saturn comp with no slowdown.
The options are actually called CRAW (Constituted Ray Art Weapon).
Not in IV - the manual refers to them as "Claw". CRAW as an acronym appeared in V
Ed Oscuro wrote:I also started up Steel Empire (actually the beta ROM) to get an idea of that. Pretty interesting but tiny ships (I guess that's OK) and extremely tiny rocks or something being thrown at my ship from the background (that's definitely not OK).
I don't recall either of those from the game so I guess the beta ROM is a bit different? Having a life bar makes the game far too easy for the standard fighter, although the zeppelin is such a huge target it needs it. It is very easy but good fun and the steampunk styling is seriously cool.
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by stryc9 »

Ha ha, yeah I just checked the manuals (Japanese) for Thunder Force II, III, IV and VI.

Only VI lists the options as CRAW, the rest say CLAW. Which when you think about it is very interesting because it would seem to be the opposite of what was intended, given the Japanese issue with pronouncing the 'L' sound.

Maybe it was originally 'Constituted Rotating Art Weapon' or something, which would make more sense, as they well, rotate a lot :)

I'll get my mate to have a look at translating that part of the manual(s) so we can work it out.
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by nZero »

stryc9 wrote:Maybe it was originally 'Constituted Rotating Art Weapon' or something, which would make more sense, as they well, rotate a lot :)
I always thought that was just a backronym that Working Designs came up with when they brought the PS1 version of TFV to North America.
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Kiken »

nZero wrote:
stryc9 wrote:Maybe it was originally 'Constituted Rotating Art Weapon' or something, which would make more sense, as they well, rotate a lot :)
I always thought that was just a backronym that Working Designs came up with when they brought the PS1 version of TFV to North America.
The acronym CRAW is in the Japanese Saturn TFV manual.
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by stryc9 »

Well, I don't think I've had my ass handed to me so badly by a 16 bit shooter in a long time :shock:

Yes, that's right, I've been playing Undead Line.

Never got to try this before, but man, I've just come off the Aleste games, and this is astonishingly difficult. And a significant amount of that difficulty comes from the cycling powerup system - which includes power downs, speed downs and even poison vials which drain 1 of your three meager life blocks.

If you lose all three blocks, you lose a life and it's back to the start of the stage. Like how a regular shooter would be if you lost your whole credit.

There is a selection of different weapons that can be powered up to three times, and I'm liking the fire one right now.

But I kid you not, make one mistake with the powerup chests and cycle past the pickup you want, and you're in trouble.

That aspect coupled with the relentless march of the enemies equals one of the most ball-shreddingly intense shooter experiences I've had the (mis)fortune to play on the MD. It's difficult to make progress, but when you do, it feels good.

I'll be picking this up for sure.

Anyone else subject themselves to this game here?
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by BIL »

I think Damocles is our local Undead Line authority here - I like the MD one quite a bit, might pick it up sometime. The balls-hard difficulty is quite something for a console shooter, and I like the odd pan-horror art that seems to mix classical myths with slasher fare. That haunted house that greets the player with a face-full of shattered glass, an evil fireplace and a small army of Jason Voorhees-alikes is a hoot! As is the cemetary where ghosts attack from desecrated tombstones.
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Ed Oscuro »

I probably oughta pick that game up; the MSX2 game slows down too much even on an MSX2+. Probably requires an expensive Turbo to get it working fullspeed most of the time.
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by RGC »

My copy of Undead Line arrived a week or so ago. I've deliberately left most of my other MD games packed away so I can focus on this little beauty. :-)
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by stryc9 »

Yeah I ended up ordering it. There is enough unique little touches to the levels (the killer fireplace is cool indeed), as well as the aforementioned difficulty level that I can't let this one slip by, especially after how much I've been enjoying Elemental Master.

I'll have that beat by another week though so I'm gonna need a fresh challenge and with Undead Line that's probably the understatement of the century 8)
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

Chelnov, Rocket Knight Adventures, Eliminate Down and Monster World IV.
Was ToeJam & Earl even released in Japan?
Speaking of Chelnov, does the Saturn port have autofire? There is a disc image out there, but for me arcade-rapid button mashing doesn't work with joypads' face buttons.
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Ganelon »

Ed Oscuro wrote:Beyond Oasis
I just saw this post, and am surprised that a Castlevania player would find Beyond Oasis platforming annoying. I beat the game on rank 1 without dying after a few tries (on an actual system with no save states). The controls were always fluid to me, and I almost never missed a special move (there are 2 versions of the somersault kicks BTW) or a moving platform (except in the optional cliffs) once I got used to the timing. While you'll be using the Alt. Knife for 3/4 of the game, all the weapons have their uses too. Bombs are great for destroying groups of enemies while bows take unaware enemies out at long range. I pretty much stick with the infinite Omega sword when I get it. The sad part of the game is that while it may take 10 hours the first time, it's only a few hours long once you know where everything is. I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone managed to complete it in under 1 hour.

Anyway, here are my thoughts on your dislikes of the game:

a.) Listen to the conversations. The story is pretty simple and straightforward. All locations are referenced in general directions (as it should be, with no snooze-mode GPS as in modern RPGs). You regenerate MP after receiving a special pendant. Each special item gives you a special power, in fact, and this tidbit is explained in the manual.
b.) Ledges aren't slippery, but there is inertia after a running jump that you must account for. Once you get used to it, it's easy. There are no pixel-perfect jumps needed (some are strict, but still easier than Castlevania-strict), and platforming as a whole becomes much easier when you have Shade. The only really difficult part of the game with jumps is completely optional.
c.) I can't argue here. The only reason the platforming gets annoying for me is because the platforms don't move as fast as running.
d.) I think the levels are designed well with plenty of secrets and more puzzles than mazes. Enemy reset is pretty standard ARPG fare.
e.) Spikes are later used to prevent you from advancing without switching them off. That's probably why they don't let you advance. Hey, you'd rather have spikes than an endless pit, right? :D
f.) The spirits are sometimes helpful at taking care of things on their own. It takes no more than 2 seconds for Efreet to wander over to where you are, so it's not that much of a bother to have him light something.
g.) Aiming the spirit armlet is just positioning. As with the axe in Castlevania, I rarely miss.

If you like Beyond Oasis, Legend of Oasis has more of the same with less platforming but more hassle and fighting. I don't think Zelda really compares, but I'm biased against kiddy games with little muppets as enemies.

Finally, I strongly feel that Yuzo Koshiro's soundtrack for Beyond Oasis is excellent but one of the most misunderstood compositions in gaming. My only criticism is that the main castle theme has too much volume disparity. I normally prefer motivating dungeon themes in my RPGs (e.g. the 2 themes in Phantasy Star I are amazing) over dissonant themes but for the latter, I think Koshiro's compositions are probably the best I've ever heard. However, sound quality limitations prevent the soundtrack from becoming a classic. I actually prefer the YM2612 sound chip over the SPC700—Langrisser II is a prime example of why—but for the complex tunes in Beyond Oasis heavily inspired by late romantic and early contemporary classical pieces, I believe that they would've been better served with a more orchestral-sounding chip. I also think Koshiro expected too much from a casual RPG audience. A few tracks feature huge stretches of atonality, and I doubt that's something the vast majority of gamers would be able to appreciate. The big shame is that there was no arrange soundtrack to show Koshiro's genius via a live orchestra.
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Ganelon wrote:
Ed Oscuro wrote:Beyond Oasis
I just saw this post, and am surprised that a Castlevania player would find Beyond Oasis platforming annoying.
Even (especially!) in Castlevania Adventure on GB, your ledge and footing are solid. In BO the edge is fuzzy and ill-defined, especially in that damn volcano.
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Damocles
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Re: The Sega Megadrive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Damocles »

stryc9 wrote:Well, I don't think I've had my ass handed to me so badly by a 16 bit shooter in a long time :shock:

Yes, that's right, I've been playing Undead Line.
Check out my badly-written strategy guide in my sig for specific tips.

tl:dr

Whore out the spread daggers like she owes you money. Switch out weapons for particular bosses if you feel like it.



Personally, I'm still working through Wily Wars, trying to unlock the Wily Tower. My woman and I also have also been enjoying rounds of Zombies Ate My Neighbors.
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