Castlevania Miscellanies

[Austin]

To me SNES Drac X is a boring slog and is one of the weakest linear-Vanias. Sadly, even a mediocre Castlevania game is still better than many games out there.

[BrianC]

I find it sad that the one CV game with a whip wielding woman is one of the worst CV games out there, if not the worst. At least Bloodstained CotM is good. Compared to Dark Night Prelude, XX is a masterpiece.

[Austin]

I agree, Legends is not particularly good. And as much as I enjoy Belmont's Revenge, I'll still take XX any day. I do enjoy the game, but I don't get why moving down one generic hallway to another and attacking pole knights a couple dozen times over the course of the game is so endearing (nor especially top-tier material) to people. At least to those not speedrunning--there are some neat things you can do with XX in that case and I'll give it credit for that.

[Sumez]

The controls are utterly superb! It's the handling that rankles, specifically that boggy walk speed.

You're gonna have to be more precise with me here. What the hell are the differences between "controls" and "handling"? I could say "I never had any problems with the walk speed in XX", if that makes things better?

If it weren't for that dumb final boss, I'd say Dracula XX is an almost flawless game whose only "issue" is that it never really reaches for anything more than a "traditional, plain Castlevania", that suffers way too much from stupid second-hand Internet opinions based pretty much entirely on idiots considering the game a "port" of Rondo. The same kind of people who think posting random unrelated images in discussion threads constitutes an argument.

I like traditional, plain Castlevania, and much prefer it to dumb mode 7 gimmicks, wacky glitchywhips, one hit kill traps, weird charge attacks, or repetitive stages where you have to learn the enemy patterns to have any chance of survival. For all the awkward weird things the other 16-bit Castlevanias do, DracXX just does everything by the book until it screws up in the 11th hour at the aforementioned final boss fight.
Sorry, I'm not gonna let a slow walking speed, that I never even made notice of, ruin that for me.

In short, Stevens, don't let the haters ruin a great game for you.

[BIL]

The controls are utterly superb! It's the handling that rankles, specifically that boggy walk speed.

You're gonna have to be more precise with me here. What the hell are the differences between "controls" and "handling"? I could say "I never had any problems with the walk speed in XX", if that makes things better?

( ・｀ω｀・)>⌐■-■
(■｀ω´■)
RELAX AND TAKE NOTES SUMEZ

Control = response, reliability. Handling = how the onscreen character moves about. Holy Diver has utterly shitty controls (brutally glitchy, to the point a 1LC will rewire your nervous system), but handles really nicely (Metroidesque lunar platform/shooting).

XX has excellent controls (I can't recall them ever letting me down), but Richter moves with a noticeable sluggishness. Noticeable to some, anyway. I don't mind it too much, but I certainly notice it. It's more of a problem in the early game - later on there's precious little safe ground to watch him hobble over.

In short, a game can have appealing handling, yet faulty controls. Or tight controls, but sludgy stilted handling.

That's how I do it anyway.

If it weren't for that dumb final boss, I'd say Dracula XX is an almost flawless game whose only "issue" is that it never really reaches for anything more than a "traditional, plain Castlevania", that suffers way too much from stupid second-hand Internet opinions based pretty much entirely on idiots considering the game a "port" of Rondo. The same kind of people who think posting random unrelated images in discussion threads constitutes an argument.

Oh yeah, the "port" guys can choke to death on my fucking cock. I can't abide ignorance. (■｀ω´■)

I like traditional, plain Castlevania, and much prefer it to dumb mode 7 gimmicks, wacky glitchywhips, one hit kill traps, weird charge attacks, or repetitive stages where you have to learn the enemy patterns to have any chance of survival. For all the awkward weird things the other 16-bit Castlevanias do, DracXX just does everything by the book until it screws up in the 11th hour at the aforementioned final boss fight.

It's got some good stages, a couple of truly excellent ones (Atlantis, Good End Clock Tower). I wouldn't say it's a particularly good 16bit ambassador of traditional CV across the board, though. Rondo, Vampire Killer and X68k all pack plenty of traditionally punishing method action, easily as uncompromising as XX's, with none of the sludgy handling.

I suppose I'm in neither the "bad port" nor "criminally underrated" camp. 3:< I don't do camps. Get out of my tent you arse burglars!

Sorry, I'm not gonna let a slow walking speed, that I never even made notice of, ruin that for me.

That's ALMOST how I feel about GB Dracula II. >:3 (EXCEPT I notice it! and suffer, and burn!)

[Squire Grooktook]

I like traditional, plain Castlevania, and much prefer it to dumb mode 7 gimmicks, wacky glitchywhips, one hit kill traps, weird charge attacks, or repetitive stages where you have to learn the enemy patterns to have any chance of survival. For all the awkward weird things the other 16-bit Castlevanias do

Bloodlines does exactly none of this, with the exception of a few mode 7 elements which interfere with nothing.

You can like XX as much as you want, but if this is what you think of Bloodlines, your sins shall not be forgiven.

[BIL]

I thought he meant CV4. The only thing remotely applicable to Bloodlines there is... well actually no, none of it. BL doesn't do 1HKO traps (unless you mean st4's GIANT FUCKOFF STATIONARY AXE BLADE THE SIZE OF THE SCREEN THAT YOU SNEAK UNDER but that's a pretty ineffective trap!)

It doesn't have charge attacks either, it's got a very useful light/heavy dynamic. (unless he meant Lecarde's super jump...?) No glitchy whips either, that's CV4's thing. Repetitive is the one thing BL is categorically not, it's constantly whisking the player from one scene to the next. MD can't do Mode7 at all.

I've played the hell out of both but I'd have to guess XX is more memory-demanding on account of its remarkably fragile, slow character. Noobs certainly seem to think so, XX tends to make 'em whiny. BL's pretty forgiving compared to it. I would put XX nearer bone-shattering impacts like CVIII Loop 2 (US VER FFS).

TLDR: Imma leave this here and see where it goes, but I am reluctant to pin such a thing on Sumez-kun.

[Strider77]

The same kind of people who think posting random unrelated images in discussion threads constitutes an argument.

Your passive aggressive jab happens to be wrong. I own XX and X (since the 90s, same copies today) and realize XX is not a port. That's another falsehood on your lap. The next would be assuming that pic was my arguement verus making fun of your claim. There is a difference and my reaction to your XX > Bloodlines claim certainly was not exclusive to me in the following comments... or a few before.

Also, I'm not the one who claimed C4's OST is an example of the SNES/SFC sounding like crap. I haven't forgotten that bizarro claim. C4 has its issues but the audio isn't amongst them.

but I am reluctant to pin such a thing on Sumez-kun

No need to when he's already done it himself.

[Sumez]

TLDR: Imma leave this here and see where it goes, but I am reluctant to pin such a thing on Sumez-kun.

Oh most of it was pinned on CV4. Bloodlines is largely inoffensive, bar some of the areas in and around the tower of pisa and a few poorly designed bosses.
My biggest problem with it is that normal mode is far too easy, while hard mode is just plain tedious to play, usually using "let's put in a ton of bats in this room" as a substitute for a genuine increase in difficulty.
I do think it relies much more on memorization than any other game in the series, though.

Honestly, it feels dumb to critizise any of these games, all of which I love. The fact that CV4 is the worst of the 16 bit Castlevanias says a lot, when it's still a decent game. But aside from Rondo, all of them have their share of flaws that I have to recognize. (also, I have yet to play X68k all the way through, so leaving it out of the equation for now)

[Vanguard]

Dracula XX is Simon's Quest tier.

[BIL]

I do think it relies much more on memorization than any other game in the series, though.

Not seeing it at all, honestly. Trad CV are all pretty mean games by console standards... some really mean (CVIII Loop 2), others less so. I'd rank VK as fairly moderate, just on the Ninja Gaiden-esque subweapons.

(Unless you mean memorise to demolish the whole thing for maximum style points without missing a step or taking a hit, but that's POW-driven assault course sidescrolling in general, ala Super Shinobi I & II and Alien Soldier)

It does have an endurance / attrition aspect with its rather long, combat-heavy stages and decided lack of wallmeats, that I can see. It's long since ceased to register (now it's those fucking nipping mistakes that steal my POW I fear), but it was always my primary takeaway BITD.

Even though they're fairly inoffensive as far as autoscrollers go, I'd stock the second st2 and first st3 with some more enemies. Few bone pillars to deny refuge / demolish under pressure would liven up the tower interior nicely. Ninja Ryukenden III st2-2 syndrome (see Ninja Gaiden III's much-needed fix).

Honestly, it feels dumb to critizise any of these games, all of which I love.

I think it's useful to compare/contrast, but yeah, I don't have anything really bad to say about even my least favoured.

The Theme Of Trad CV Flamewar :3

[Austin]

I've played the hell out of both but I'd have to guess XX is more memory-demanding on account of its remarkably fragile, slow character. Noobs certainly seem to think so, XX tends to make 'em whiny. BL's pretty forgiving compared to it. I would put XX nearer bone-shattering impacts like CVIII Loop 2 (US VER FFS).

I appreciate the mention of second loops, and personally I think XX would have a lot more appeal to me if it actually had one. As far as comparing to Bloodlines, having run through it a few times recently, I think the one loop of XX is a tad easier than the Expert loop of Bloodlines.

My biggest problem with it is that normal mode is far too easy, while hard mode is just plain tedious to play, usually using "let's put in a ton of bats in this room" as a substitute for a genuine increase in difficulty. I do think it relies much more on memorization than any other game in the series, though.

I'm not really sure I understand why this is an issue. Have you played a single second loop of any other CV game before? They are all pretty much bat spam. Although in the case of IV, if you know what the hell you are doing, it's still a cakewalk (re: get cross, get III, then spam projectiles as you push the screen forward; bats and pretty much anything else will feel the wrath).

[Sumez]

To be honest, I'm not a fan of most of the second loops in CV games.

[Obscura]

I actually kinda dig CV4's second loop; it's the game's real "normal" difficulty, IMO. It's still no immense challenge (we're still talking CV4 here!), but it adds enough teeth to kill you if you fall asleep at the wheel, which makes the game a lot more fun.

CV3's second loop is the other one that's worth mentioning, of course. Those skulls, and that cruel, cruel damage scale! I've never done it without needing continues because I'm bad (even the first loop of CV3 is no breeze for a 1cc IMO, just on account of its sheer length), but even so, just pushing through it at all is one hell of a memorable experience.

[Squire Grooktook]

Honestly, it feels dumb to critizise any of these games, all of which I love.

I think it's useful to compare/contrast, but yeah, I don't have anything really bad to say about even my least favoured.

FOR CENTURIES VAMPIRE KILLERS HAVE DEFEATED EVIL WITH HOOOLY POWER

BUT

WHAT IF ONE VAMPIRE KILLER WERE TO FIGHT ANOTHER?

The Theme Of Trad CV Flamewar :3

Alternative (and probably belongs in the evocative vgm titles thread anyway).

[FinalBaton]

The only thing I'd agree, is that the second loop of Bloodlines should consist in more changes than just having turbo bats enter the screen at all times.

Other than that, Bloodlines is an exquisite action game, that is beyond tight and an amazing experience, perfectly tailored for aggressive play. Please plug it straight into my veins

[BIL]

There's actually only a couple stage sections I can think of where Expert adds the Turbo Backstabber Bats™. The latter third of Stage 1, and their redux in Stage 4 which I think we can all argree is some quality treachery. (edit: "argree," heh. That's a good term for trad CV brawls. )

Spoiler

^ I could frickin fap to that section. FAP TO IT I TELL THEE (・｀W´・) It's most definitely not free-hand friendly though! What do you think this is, you godless noobs? WANPAKU BUNNY-CHAN'S DOKI DOKI COLLEGE FUCK FEST for the NEC PC-98?!

Although maybe I'm wrong and there's a few more. To be honest, it's been so goddamn long (like twenty fuckin years) since I played anything but Expert, I've forgotten what exactly changes. I... could swear a few minibosses aren't in Normal? Or were they not in Easy. Hmm. I don't care much tbh, Expert is the canonical difficulty and I'd suggest vets go right in on it. What I do know is Bloodlines Expert vs Vampire Killer Expert.

By the by, behold, the original standard-setter of Loop Bat Aggravation. Masterpiece. Good timing too - coming straight out of the utterly bullshit, utterly nightmarish Loop Catacombs. I was in balls-hard MURDERFACE CONCENTRATION MODE. Not a scratch and then I FUCKIN KILLED FRANKY AND IGOR BEFORE THEY GOT OUT THE CAR, I FUCKIN TORCHED EM, I'D DO IT AGAIN MOTHERFUCKER

What I'm saying is bats are good So are ghosts. Stick 'em where there was once refuge and everything else gains. Obviously this is the description of a garnish, you can't build whole stages out of 'em! That's not what Bloodlines does either though, they're in st1 to back up the otherwise outmatched Boney-kuns. In CV1 2-4 garden they foil your otherwise unassailable anti-fleaman Berumondo No Ougi.

TOP SECRET DONT SHARE (・｀W´・)

Spoiler

IT STOPS RABBITS TOO BUT THEY ARE MARGINALLY SMARTER (・｀W´・)

Spoiler

[FinalBaton]

Wow. you really like dem turbo bats

Hmmm... I'll give second loop another chance. SOON

[Stevens]

In short, Stevens, don't let the haters ruin a great game for you.

No, on the contrary I've quite enjoyed the discussion since I know very little about the series as a whole.

With XX I either get into a rhythm and breeze through the first few stages, or I can't get far at all. Furthest I've gotten is stage 4 or 4'.

I have Super 4 also, but haven't played it much at all.

[BrianC]

What I'm saying is bats are good

Batman is better.

[Vanguard]

I'm looking to get into Castlevania X68K, and I remember hearing that there are some altered versions floating around. Do any of y'all know what hp damage values the original should use? Is that the only modification I'm likely to run into?

No, on the contrary I've quite enjoyed the discussion since I know very little about the series as a whole.

With XX I either get into a rhythm and breeze through the first few stages, or I can't get far at all. Furthest I've gotten is stage 4 or 4'.

I have Super 4 also, but haven't played it much at all.

Here's my take on the classicvanias if you're interested:

Top:
Castlevania: Basic compared to its successors, but it gets everything right. Excellent level and boss design.

Bloodlines: Generally faster-paced and more aggressive than the others. The powerup system lets you blow through the enemies even faster if you can avoid damage. You can attack at different angles in this one, but the mechanic is well-considered and doesn't do much harm to the series's methodical gameplay (unlike Super Castlevania 4). There are two playable characters who are each slightly better than the other at various things. I'm told the US version is marginally more difficult than the JP version. The EU version is censored so avoid that one.

Rondo of Blood: A bit of a style over substance game, but mostly because it's overflowing with style. There's definitely still a good amount of substance there. Has two paths through the game which you can freely switch between. There's a very fun but very overpowered unlockable character that, for me, makes this one really outstanding.


Mid:
Dracula's Curse: Much longer and less consistent than the original. The level design has high highs and low lows. You can recruit one of three sidekick characters with different abilities. There are two main paths through the game and once you choose one you're married to it. The US version makes some balance changes that are generally considered for the better (JP Grant is insanely overpowered and JP Dracula's final form hardly puts up a fight) but the JP version has better quality audio. The US version also features a brutal second loop.

Super Castlevania 4: Very long and takes a while to heat up. Your whip has much more reach than in the other games and it can attack in 8 directions, so you can hit nearly anything on the screen no matter where you are. This really takes its toll on the series's signature tactical combat.


Bottom:
Dracula XX: There is occasionally some nice level design here which I will never be able to appreciate because the ungodly slow move speed makes every moment an ordeal.

Simon's Quest: Mechanically similar to the original but dogshit level design and tedious RPG elements make it hard to recommend.


Untiered:
X68K: IDK, seems pretty hard.

[BIL]

I'm looking to get into Castlevania X68K, and I remember hearing that there are some altered versions floating around. Do any of y'all know what hp damage values the original should use? Is that the only modification I'm likely to run into?

Our top X68000 man SuperDeadite on official damage values:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=57509

Mid:
Dracula's Curse: Much longer and less consistent than the original. The level design has high highs and low lows.

Spot on. It just hit me that CVIII is the indulgent double LP of the FC games, versus the original's knockout debut and II's experimental stumble. When it's good it's fuckin priapistic (the penultimate stage is impeccably CV1's deadly tactical action writ marathon). When it's bad... eeesh. I can buckle down, but maneuvering around gradually piling/melting blocks is not playing to this series' strengths.

Happily the bad is overwhelmingly to one side. I always tell newbies, for the love of god, take the upper routes - Clock Tower optional. You'll avoid the execrable melty blocks / falling blocks segments, with more scenic variety, faster pacing and catchier BGM. Then you get the excellent closing trilogy by default. My first time through I went low, and suffered through not only the crummy gimmicks, but also a monotonous swamp / cave / catacomb / dungeon / basement aesthetic. I gritted through, then tried upper afterward and couldn't believe the relief. Then I replayed low, and appreciated it as (gimmicks aside) a generally tougher, appropriately morose alternative.

[Squire Grooktook]

Castlevania: Basic compared to its successors, but it gets everything right. Excellent level and boss design.

You'll love X68 then.

Fixes cv1's singular flaw (fun but slightly breezy first 3 stages before the "real" balls to the walls action starts), and utterly shreds faces with absolutely perfect variety, difficulty, balance, rng usage, pacing...the works.

I don't just rate it the singular best game in the franchise, but easily top 5 in the entire side scrolling murder sim genre.

Another fun fact: before engaging in my current STG development project, I was working on a little CV fangame project. Then I played x68 and immediately scrapped the project because the perfect CV already existed.

Mid:
Dracula's Curse: Much longer and less consistent than the original. The level design has high highs and low lows. You can recruit one of three sidekick characters with different abilities. There are two main paths through the game and once you choose one you're married to it. The US version makes some balance changes that are generally considered for the better (JP Grant is insanely overpowered and JP Dracula's final form hardly puts up a fight) but the JP version has better quality audio. The US version also features a brutal second loop.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who ranks CV1 above CV3. Usually people gasp when I say that.

For me it's that CV3 is too long and too static. CV1 takes 3 stages to heat up and then breaks out with a killer rng boss gauntlet from hell. Everything feels a lot more static in CV3 (even zakos like skellies), and it's relatively breezy until Dracula's Castle, at which point it suddenly ups the strictness without upping the reactiveness. Ends up feeling a bit joyless to me.


My personal ranking would be:

X68 -> Bloodlines -> CV1 -> Rondo -> CV3 -> CV4 == XX

[Sumez]

Fixes cv1's singular flaw (fun but slightly breezy first 3 stages before the "real" balls to the walls action starts), and utterly shreds faces with absolutely perfect variety, difficulty, balance, rng usage, pacing...the works.

You'll like Vs. Castlevania.
It's amazing what a shortened time limit and a higher damage output does for stage 3's final stretch.

[Obscura]

I rate CV 3 above 1... but only on top path.

As much as I like X68K, I can't say it plays a lot like CV 1; the diagonal whip and the ability to change direction mid-jump really change its feel a lot. It exists in the kind of "hybrid" between CV and NG territory that Bloodlines does, albeit probably a little closer to classic CV territory, with its lack of i-frame moves and pows and such. It is the best game in the series, though.

X68K > 3 > 1 > Bloodlines = XX >>>> Rondo = 4

[Sumez]

Yeah, I'm in the CV3 camp myself, but it's worth mentioning that I like to pretend the lower path doesn't exist. I don't remember the last time I have played those stages.

[Stevens]

Didn't even know the x68 version existed till now. Watching the first level. Looks great.

[SuperDeadite]

Didn't even know the x68 version existed till now. Watching the first level. Looks great.

If you are crazy enough to get the real hardware and a proper monitor, there is a fan patch which adds stereoscopic LCD shutter 3D support to X68K Dracula. It is extremely well done, and truly amazing to play. Highly recommended for the insane like myself.

[NYN]

I am amazed at how D's Curse generates deference for sporting a mild level select, presenting one tier enjoyable while the other can be frowned upon. But that it is in this state viewed as a complete game when the gripe part can easily be dropped and ignored is bewildering to me. It almost constitutes a golf clap from my part of the field.

In my opinion SCIV has it's flaws (length, tautness, 8-way), but now I can't help but imagine how players might think if it had simply given the same treatment as The Curse. Take your pick and leave the rest. You like?

[BrianC]

Control gripes aside (and honestly the slight slowness in Belmont's revenge never bothered me that much. I found Legends and Adventure to be worse in the slowness), Dracula Densetsu II/Belmont's Revenge still has far superior level design compared to XX.