Mega Man Miscellanies

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Nothing interesting is being said anyway, except from a cringeworthy comment on how the old Mega Man games apparently had a tendency to kill you without warning.

Which is bullshit - there are some blind drops into spike lined pits now and then, but for the most part even if you are positioned badly you can react in time to avoid it. The only other thing on the NES games I can think of that gets anywhere this nasty are the falling crystals in Crystal Man's stage which can be difficult to predict when it's safe to jump (I don't remember the gaps between drops being in an obvious pattern), and that's a whopping two screens on the stage. On the whole there is very little that could be considered bullshit "kill you without warning" design on the main Mega Man games.

The GB games do have some bullshit instadeath drops which due to screen and sprite size you literally can't avoid if you are badly positioned, but they're quite generous with extra lives at least (and in the first game, your hovering item spawns below you, so you can use it as you're falling to save yourself). There's also a few unusual map layouts such as jumps you have to make blind which could run you into an enemy, but on the whole even the handheld games are pretty decently fair, albeit less so than the NES version due to the small screen size and thus distance you can see ahead.

[Sumez]

Yeah I was kind of baffled about that comment, since the developers have previously shown a solid understanding of what the old games did well.
At least the supposed addition is well justified anyway.

[NYN]

To all whom it may concern: the Mega Man Zero: Official Complete Works got a new print in English. Udon hardcover.
Maybe now some more get a copy. I know I put my order down.

[Sumez]

Digging this thread back up due to the recent release of the Zero/ZX Legacy Collection on modern platforms.
I'm playing it on Switch, and it's extremely smooth and well handled.

As for the games though, I'm kind of shocked to learn how "not great" the Zero games are. I've previously stated that MM9 and 10 show that Inti Creates don't really understand what makes Mega Man fun, and even though the Zero games get a lot of this right, they also make some really baffling blunders, often leaving elements on stages that cause them to be frustrating rather than challenging. And it doesn't seem to respect the GBA's low resolution at all, often asking the player to react to enemies, obstacles or even bosses that are outside of your range of vision.

This is especially terrible in the first game, but gets less prevalent in the later ones. I managed to enjoy Zero 3 quite a bit, and from the stages I've played of Zero 4 so far, I think I might even like this one, but it's still too early to tell.
After the disappointment of re-experiencing Zero 1, I'm kind of dreading returning to ZX too, as that's another game I remember fondly, but I might have been blinded by my yearning for traditional Mega Man action at that time, too.

Looking around on the internet for people's thoughts on the Zero games it's kind of weird how the series gets almost nothing but praise, so maybe there's something I'm not getting.
But for some reason probably a majority of the discussions relating to the games seem to focus on the story, which is laughable considering the plot in these games is ridiculously bad, and the same vein of excuse plot as every Mega Man game has ever had. The only difference here is that the game likes to waste a lot more of your time with people talking and talking and talking all the time, which is another infuriating element. If you thought MMX5 was bad in this regard, Zero goes the whole nine yards.

Full disclaimer though, I actually also like the Zero 4 story so far - They finally decided to introduce a bunch of human characters, something that should have been done much much earlier considering the human society is supposed to be a big focus of the story in all of the entries. But I'm sure they'll introduce a whole new bunch of nonsensical anime junk before the finale, so I'm not holding my breath

[blackoak]

Looking around on the internet for people's thoughts on the Zero games it's kind of weird how the series gets almost nothing but praise, so maybe there's something I'm not getting.

I always felt the same way actually, and had the same surprised reaction when I learned later that people really liked them. But then, I love Rockman and Forte, so... haha. Intersting about Z3 and Z4, maybe I'll pick those up first next time I try and revisit the series.

[Sumez]

Zero 3 definitely does away with a lot of the dumb ideas that held back 1 and 2, and it also doesn't have as excruciatingly terrible level design as those two. Even the soundtrack is almost listenable (Zero 2 is just offensive to the ears at times).

It does share one of the biggest offenses of the series though, that remains a constant throughout all four games - there are so many parameters to twist in terms of powers and difficulty, that starting out on the game is going to be extremely overwhelming.
I think this does adhere to the themes of the Mega Man series as a whole, with the boss powers originating in MM1, and E-tanks in MM2 being standard bearers on the subject of a dynamically adjustable difficulty, built into the game entirely for the player's own satisfaction.
But the Zero games are just all over the place. I think there are potentially a lot of fun dials to mess with if you really get into the game, and plan on replaying it over and over. But if the game doesn't have a solid enough foundation I don't think it can really carry that, and all of the games definitely come short of that, at least compared to any of the original MM games, and the first four X games.
This design also means that the first few stages you play can be really difficult, with the rest of the game being much more of a pushover, which isn't an ideal structure for an action game.

- You have four different weapons, but only two can be equipped at a time, making it more frustrating than fun when the game expects you to rely on a specific one for a certain challenge.
- Beating certain bosses unlocks elemental attacks, which certain other bosses have weaknesses to. Classic Mega Man stuff, but for the entire series you get only the same three elements repeated in each of them, and the weaknesses are always the same. I actually probably like this more than the traditional boss weakness formula. There is no reason for robot master weaknesses being a "secret".
- Reusable subtanks can be collected, similar to the Mega Man X games.
- Extra body chips are unlockable in this game, and I'm unsure exactly what triggers them. At one point I got one after beating a boss, reloaded and beat it with a better ranking, but got a worse chip. These chips do stuff like double jumping, auto-charge etc. Especially the latter is invaluable IMO, as having to holdi down the charge button constantly is one of my biggest gripes with both the X and Zero series.
- By beating bosses with an A rank or higher (the ranking being not for the individual stage, but a continuous average - so you can't just skimp on one to do well on the next) earns you EX skills, which add to your arsenal with a few of them making you quite powerful without hurting your rank.
- Cyber elves is the big thing for the Zero games, and they are always implemented in confusing, unintuitive ways. They work as either consumables or permanent upgrades, and are a finite resource that can only be used once each. They also serve as the game's attempt to scratch the Pokemon itch of collecting them all, which I don't think suits the Mega Man formula well, though they manage to keep that aspect inoffensive.
Using them liberally will make you absurdly overpowered, but using even a single one will hurt your rank permanently, which is where this customization aspect of the series starts getting really schizophrenic. There's no single "correct" way to play the games, and either way you go with will have you completely ignore extremely fundamental elements of the game's design. In Zero 3 at least you're allowed to upgrade certain elves to "sattelites" which means you can use their ability with no punishment to the rank, but the downside is you can only equip two at a time. This is a decent idea, but streamlined much better in Zero 4.
- Finally(?) Zero 3 also introduces "cyber space" which basically just means you play a green version of each stage segment between the bosses in which your cyber elves are made much more powerful, making them power you up even further, but the downside of doing this is another hit to your stage rank. Another aspect that's more streamlined in Zero 4's "weather" system.

Anyone who already hates the powerup shop introduced in MM7 will definitely have their hands full with everything offered in the Zero series.

[NYN]

Looking around on the internet for people's thoughts on the Zero games it's kind of weird how the series gets almost nothing but praise, so maybe there's something I'm not getting.

How about this?
It offers a slice of a "legendary series" where some players feel not stigmatized of being not gud enough for hard action and, with the Cyber Elv(is) system, letting them downright cheat through the end. All that is required is th grind. Of course it helps that recurring characters, well, do their thing. All in all a sweet ride for the unforgiven and a solid base for i-net reverence, wouldn't you agree?

Now, what I really wanna know, is what provokes that silly digital price for MM11. A lot of games are close to retail pricing, yet I can't help but think that Cap Com is flying high on some overassessment.

[Sumez]

wouldn't you agree?

Should I? I can see why a grindy failsafe is a good way to give an otherwise hardcore series a wider appeal, but there's no way it makes it an unanimously better game, and honestly I don't think where most of its fanbase comes from either.
I think without any of the potential training wheels you can attach to Zero, the stages and bosses are some of the toughest across all Mega Man series, and given most response I've seen to the series, I don't think that's lost to most people - no one likes the games "because they are easier", and in fact one of the most common pieces of criticisms that can be found against the games is actually the grind in especially the first game.
Besides, the elements that makes certain stages frustrating still exist in spite of the the grind-based upgrades. Being able to extend your lifebar to 4-8 times its original capacity doesn't mitigate all the insta-kill traps, offscreen attackers, and blind jumps that plague the often terrible stage design.

Now, what I really wanna know, is what provokes that silly digital price for MM11

What's the digital price for MM11?

I bought MM11 on release day, imported from overseas because that was the only way to get a physical Switch copy, yet it was still much cheaper than most other Switch games I've bought. It was definitely a budget title, which is probably a good choice given people's general approach to anything non-AAA nowadays - for what's essentially the best Mega Man release since at least MMX4, that's kinda underselling it to be honest, it's easily worth a regular full price release. But I can appreciate a cheaper price point if they are still able to turn a profit with it, and it's disappointing if the digital release doesn't follow that same mindset.

[Austin]

MM11's digital price is the same as its physical release when that was new, so $30. Just a case of a game's digital version not dropping with the times, which is typical and not unique to Capcom. Physical copies can be had new at some places for under $20 now.

[Sumez]

Got done with MMZ4 the other day, and it's definitely not as good as it could have been. I'm not sure it even managed to be better than Zero 3, which is unfortunate, because it's being held back by just a few missteps unlike the earlier games which are generally pretty bad.

The boss fights in general are the height of this game. Unlike the earlier titles where most bosses could be defeated by learning a relatively simple pattern, pretty much every robot master in this game require you to be constantly on your toes. They have a generally larger moveset, and faster, more aggressive attacks.
There are few oopsies though, such as the plant boss which is absolutely painful to fight - and can (and will very often) choose to randomly just heal over and over, invalidating all damage you've done to her so far. And both forms of the final boss also suffers from a random pattern that will massively affect how frequently you'll be able to damage him, with several long sequences that you have no chance but to simply wait out. It's especially infuriating on the second form which is actually on a timer!

In terms of the stages themselves, I think they manage to feel a bit more involving than in any of the earlier Zero games. They are very strongly themed, and every individual location actually feel like they serve a purpose, and offer some sort of progression through the stage. But there are a few of them which are just a little too heavy on the stage gimmicks, which can get annoying. Overall though, it didn't keep me from training every stage to maintain an A rank throughout the whole game, which I haven't been able to convince myself to do in any of the earlier ones.

It's too bad, beause if the game had been a little more polished, I think it would have been fairly close to the same level as some of the SNES MMX games. On the positive side, this game even ditched the elemental chips - so even though they still have weaknesses, those very rarely have a lot of utility and are never able to trivialiaze a fight like in most of the X games, and a some of the bosses in the earlier Zero games.

Moved on to the ZX games now, and as a first impression the first one is definitely nowhere near as good as I remembered it being. But on the other hand it's also pretty inoffensive, and outside some design issues of its own, it manages to avoid most of the terrible stuff that plagues the bunk of the MMZ games.

[NYN]

There are few oopsies though, such as the plant boss which is absolutely painful to fight - and can (and will very often) choose to randomly just heal over and over, invalidating all damage you've done to her so far.

Funny. I gnash my teeth over the concept of regenerating boss entities, but I find Mandrago fairly mild. (in my own prejudice I imagine the regen origin in rpg's) Every time she shows from the soil she's up for damage. Triple slash on her on up on regenerating and you are still in control of the bout. But maybe "absolute pain" is a subjective term. If you were to say NO FUN ZONE that would be more easily comprehensible as declaring it next to suffering. Did you play with the Elv on?


So Sumez set out to rectify the overall perception of the Z series.
Noted.

[Sumez]

Hmm? It's painful because she will randomly just repeat healing over and over again. Occasionally she'd heal twice in a row, then do the spinning back an forth thing which is easy to dodge but also make her unable to take damage, and then proceed to heal twice in a row again, and gladly do the same thing over again if RNG wills it. She doesn't just heal once in a while, she heals constantly, and can easily decide to go back to full health with nothing you can do about it, even though you are far into the battle.
If you could at least break her healing move, or damage her while she did it, it would be fair.

The only way I found to beat her on both her own stage and in the refights was to just tank damage in order to attack so aggressively that I could wind down her health faster than she could possibly heal back up.

Now the strange thing is, that seeing videos of people fighting her on YouTube she doesn't do the healing nearly as much as I experienced.
And a similar thing is true for both final boss forms, which are much more open to attacks in the couple of videos I found on him. When I fought him, he would very frequently do the long winded attack where he summons a bunch of bosses from Zero 3, throughout which he's impossible to damage, and he would often just do it twice in a row too. In the videos I've seen, he'd do it zero or one time at worst.

So I'm guessing there are three possible explanations:
1. In the videos I've seen whoever recorded them would retry the stage or boss until they got favorable RNG.
2. The bosses have reactionary patterns and somehow my playstyle encourage them to react with annoying attacks. I have been unable to find any sign of this, and no guides anywhere make mention of it. But I hope this is the explanation, because it would make both bosses a lot more reasonable.
3. The RNG was changed in the Zero/ZX collection on Switch (which is ports, not emulation), making bosses much more biased towards certain patterns than they were in the original releases.

Anyway, keep in mind that I mentioned these bosses as the exception. I really like most of the bosses in Zero 4, and it's the aspect where that game is by far the biggest improvement over its predecessors.

Did you play with the Elv on?

I played with the Elf held within its "max level" to avoid a rank penalty. I wanted to play the game "legit" and go for an overall A rank.

So Sumez set out to rectify the overall perception of the Z series.
Noted.

I'm not sure. What is "the overall perception of the Z series"?

[NYN]

What I mean by that is the overall fondness most seem to harbour when talking 'bout it. Love it or be indifferent as you never played it.
Your own position stems from your comparison to mostly the X series and it's finer entries.
I'd agree that some of Inti's designs show as a certain inaptitude, yet I see much of it as a will to make it their own. Can some of it bother me? Yes. But as a whole, I find it rewarding enough to play.

I'll stay tuned to your re-evaluation of the two ZX. That's were it's my turn to be baffled by the basic design concepts.

About Mandrago: I've witnessed some of what you descibed. I play on GBA and DS and would be remiss to forget a triple healing, if it ever encountered me. It would be enough to lose my composure and make a mental entry.

[Sumez]

What I mean by that is the overall fondness most seem to harbour when talking 'bout it. Love it or be indifferent as you never played it.

I got the first two titles when they came out, and picked up 4 later on. I definitely played them before, and was excited to revisit them. So it was kind of shocking to me that they aren't anywhere near as good as I recalled or I guess that I've gotten the impression of via internet osmosis.

I'm not out to rectify anything, but I'm curious about other people's constructive opinions, especially if they are more favourable of the games than mine. Ghegs wrote his immediate impressions from the Z/ZX collection two days ago in the Ninja Gaiden thread, but they were very similar to mine.

[Ghegs]

Funnily enough, I own all the Zero titles CIB for GBA as well because I bought them ~15 years ago on the cheap, but I didn't actually play them (other than the first one) until I got my hands on the Switch collection. And I didn't get very far on the first one. I do like them, and when they click it feels awesome to dash around and swing a sword at everything (love the special sliced-in-half sprites, really nice touch), but they are quite brutal games, especially if you're going for high ranks, and not always for the best of reasons.

[__SKYe]

I'll post here instead of in the NG thread since this seems to be where all the discussion is at.

I'll stick to commenting on the first game since it has been years since I have cleared MMZ2, and I never actually finished the other two. Also, take everything I say with a grain of salt since I'm especially fond of this sub-series, and the first game in particular -- MMZ was the game that introduced me to the whole series, and to hard games in general.

To quickly get some minor points out of the way:

- I don't care about the story at all since, to me, Megaman games are all about the action, but I fully agree that it is nothing special and I certainly wouldn't put it forth as a point in favour of the game. Zero 4 does explore the whole humans vs reploids thing much better but even then I don't particularly care.

- The dialogue/cutscenes also don't bother me at all. On repeated runs it would be nice to be able to disable them altogether, but they're such a minor point (and you can just mash the A button anyway) that I'm not really bothered.

Regarding the cramped resolution, I agree that the action feels cramped, but I disagree that boss fights are affected by it, because only on some of them can you scroll the screen. Many of the fights are single screen, some are scrollable but not in a way that the boss can surprise you (ie. you can scroll the screen, but the boss is always in sight, such as the factory 8-armed boss and the final boss) and in only some can you fully scroll the boss offscreen, such as Fefnir, Leviathan and Copy X.
In the scrollable boss fights it quickly becomes apparent that running away from the bosses will typically make them perform a fast move to get close to you again. Fefnir, Blizoff and Copy X are good examples of this. There are some exceptions even in these type of fights; Leviathan never actually performs a sudden movement on you (she'll just swim towards your location if you're far away) and the 3-swords boss on Neo Arcadia's Shrine that spins like a top also doesn't have a special way to close the gap and will just perform his normal moves.

I also don't think that it is much of a problem in terms of level design. Though the game has its fair share of insta-kill spikes and pits, there are very little places where the screen resolution is actually a problem. The sore point, to me, is the factory level where you fight Phantom. The platforming section itself is pretty straightforward; it's the combination of having to disarm the bombs on those welding arms/structures and having to descend again that make this section a pain in the ass. Other than that, perhaps one spot on Leviathan's level, under the submarines, where you have to jump over some spikes and I think you can't actually see the platform on the other side.

Enemies appearing quite fast leaving little room for reaction is indeed the larger problem, though you can react to some of the enemies by sound (like the vultures on the desert). Some (plenty?) memorization is required for these cases.

The level design also isn't that special, and the fact that there's a fair bit of repetition among the levels you play just makes it worse.

Like I said in my previous post, I think the cyber-elves are conceptually a good idea, though the implementation could be better. You can have a wildly different experience depending on which cyber-elves you use (or any at all). On one hand, I'm OK with having to hunt them down in the stages -- it goes against the action aspect of the gameplay, but more experienced players can opt not to bother with them -- but it's the grinding to feed them that is the biggest problem.
Grinding also affects the weapon system. Although someone looking for a challenge (and/or playing Hard mode) wouldn't suffer from this, the reality is that anyone coming fresh to the game will want to both upgrade their weapons (probably for the charge attacks) and also to feed & use some of the cyber-elves, and this is not very fun. I think this structure benefits repeated playthroughs rather than first-time players, and it can certainly be a problem.

As an aside, and I'm not sure you are aware, you mentioned that increasing your life meter doesn't help with the insta-kill spikes & pits, but the cyber-elf you get after you beat the train stage will permanently cover all spikes in the game when you use it. That's why I mentioned in a previous post that you can only essentially die by falling into a pit (which is certainly possible).

As for the rank, I mostly happy with how it is implemented, with the exception of the 'enemies' category, which often means you have to deliberately stop to kill some enemies because if you just run to the exit you won't kill enough of them to get all the points. I'm also perfectly OK with the permanent rank hit of using the permanent cyber-elves; the player can decide between (potentially) getting a high rank or making the game easier.

The game's overall difficulty is also quite high, even disregarding the above issues. The levels themselves aren't that hard, and many bosses are fairly simple (at least with a bit of practice) but some are pretty tough, especially if you're not using cyber-elves. The final stage in particular is a pretty uphill battle -- the stage itself isn't actually that big of a deal, but fighting all the bosses again is. The final bosses aren't that big of a deal either, but their combined fights with no means of recovering HP are pretty tough (again, assuming no cyber-elves).

I would also like to make clear that, like I alluded in my previous post, you are never required to level up the weapons or using cyber-elves to clear the game. The game is flawed in several aspects but this isn't one of them. I'm also not excusing that, again, the reality is that most everyone will want to use some of the cyber-elves and/or level up the weapons, I just think the distinction is important.

All in all, I really enjoy Megaman Zero and even replaying it a bunch of times hasn't diminished my fondness for it, though I can certainly understand why some folks don't enjoy it as much.

[NYN]

I'm into the weird, and while I don't play for story I enjoy the mesh of cuteness of characters and the harshness of the depicted dystopia. There's an odd satisfaction in smashing Pantheons, which are mass-produced zako of X and fighting the arrogant Four Guardians who are derived from X's battle armors. The bosses are retainers of the Four, so I get a fun Fight The System inclination. Subversion!

About the Zero/ZX Collection: What's the rub with the voice over? JP original, US dub, or European mute? Could it be true that they produced a new one?

[__SKYe]

Oh right, I didn't mention the aesthetics and the setting -- I actually like both of those. I think the graphics and enemy design are quite cool and the dystopian setting is very appropriate as well.
Maybe I was a bit dismissive of the story, but I find it odd that story of all things would be a metric to judge a Megaman game by, I've always approached the game as I would any classic or X Megaman game; it's all about the gameplay and the cool bosses, quite similar to how I view Contra or Castlevania.

If I were to go by the story I would have never gotten into the Battle Network series -- and what a loss that would be.

The Zero games (much like the X series) do explore some pretty heavy themes like the aforementioned man vs machine, peaceful vs belicose atitudes (in MMZ2, where the initial chunk of the game is about Ciel's reluctance to battle Neo Arcadia vs the commander guy that wants to push forward (I think it's in MMZ2?)), etc.

[Sumez]

I like the aesthetics of all the games. I think the game's worldbuilding works so much better when they show you what's going on, as opposed to just throwing a lot of dialogue at you. Zero 4 did that very well in its robot master stages.

I'll stick to commenting on the first game since it has been years since I have cleared MMZ2, and I never actually finished the other two.

Regarding the cramped resolution, I agree that the action feels cramped, but I disagree that boss fights are affected by it, because only on some of them can you scroll the screen. Many of the fights are single screen, some are scrollable but not in a way that the boss can surprise you (ie. you can scroll the screen, but the boss is always in sight, such as the factory 8-armed boss and the final boss) and in only some can you fully scroll the boss offscreen, such as Fefnir, Leviathan and Copy X.

I played all four games in quick succession, so it's hard for me to tell each of them apart. But yeah, I don't recall any of the bosses in the first game being that bad in regards to the resolution, so I think it's mostly a thing in Zero 2 and 3.
Though it's not just the bosses that are constantly off-screen, but also the cramped real estate of the bosses that are wisely confined to a single-screen room.

I also don't think that it is much of a problem in terms of level design. Though the game has its fair share of insta-kill spikes and pits, there are very little places where the screen resolution is actually a problem. The sore point, to me, is the factory level where you fight Phantom. The platforming section itself is pretty straightforward; it's the combination of having to disarm the bombs on those welding arms/structures and having to descend again that make this section a pain in the ass. Other than that, perhaps one spot on Leviathan's level, under the submarines, where you have to jump over some spikes and I think you can't actually see the platform on the other side.

It's a problem on pretty much every single stage in Zero 1. At worst it's really bad - the factory is of course the biggest offender with an absolutely baffling design that pretty much forces you to take an educated guess on when it's safe to jump down. But even the less offensive stages all suffer to some small extent, if nothing else because of how little time you get to react to what's coming ahead, and it's a constant problem in any location you are expected to move vertically.

Another terrible one is the one where you are constantly jumping from platform to platform over a bottomless pit, and the enemies are a combination of flying guys that take a ton of hits and will fire at you from off-screen without a warning (potentially stopping you mid-jump and forcing you to fall to your death) or regular zakos standing at the edge of a platform you're jumping to, but which aren't visible before you actually start jumping towards it.
The desert is probably the only area where it's not really a problem, but even in that one you still need to know the stage inside out if you don't want to slowly edge your way forward.

[__SKYe]

Though it's not just the bosses that are constantly off-screen, but also the cramped real estate of the bosses that are wisely confined to a single-screen room.

The danger of the scrollable bosses in Zero 1 is actually that it's problematic to scroll them off-screen because they'll often perform a very quick jump towards your position which can be very hard to avoid.
I honestly don't remember most of the bosses of the later games (even MMZ2) so I'm not sure how much of a problem they are.

But even the less offensive stages all suffer to some small extent, if nothing else because of how little time you get to react to what's coming ahead, and it's a constant problem in any location you are expected to move vertically.

Yeah, I can agree with the vertical bits. I've gotten used to perform small jumps to see what's ahead (such as the platform/elevator rides on the last stage), but I concur that it's a crutch.

As for having little time to react, honestly I just consider it as a part of the series. It becomes very apparent even in the first stage proper that this is the type of game it is (where those flying enemies drop the spiked balls very close to you). I won't say that this excuses it though, and I'm probably desensitized to it due to being very familiar with the game.

I also agree with some enemies firing from offscreen (such as the armored turtles that fire arced shots and missiles), though they are a minority.
You mentioned the flying guys in that stage that take many hits to kill; I've never had a problem with them as they die in two slashes of the sabre. I play almost exclusively with the sabre and only pull out the buster to aid in some boss fights, so I wonder if dfferences in play style also affect how one perceives such cases.

Overall, I think the oddest thing in the game is that Zero is so fast and maneuverable yet the levels are designed in a way that you can't be too speedy unless you already now what's coming.

On a different note, the MMZ3 cyber areas are indeed connected to MM Battle Network. You could link to MMBN4 (I think?) and trade/transfer battle chips to the Zero game and use them somehow? I guess it has been lost in the remakes but it seemed like little more than a gimmick anyway.

[BrianC]

MMZ3 GBA had e-reader card support in Japan, but it was blocked out of the US GBA version. The DS version had the abilities of the cards as unlockables. I'm not sure if the new collection does the same thing.

[Sumez]

It does. It's basically "achievements" for the various game, of which many of them unlock those features in MMZ3. I think all they do is stuff like change the look of things in the home base though?
The home base which really has no reason to exist in the first place. I liked how Zero 1 tried to integrated the mission areas into the same overworld using the base as a central hub (even if it didn't add much to the game), but by Zero 3 it's been completely reduced to just a cumbersome menu system.

[Vanguard]

Zero's mobility and aggression in the MMZ series make him feel better to control than nearly anything else in gaming, and for that I can forgive a lot. Admittedly there's a lot that needs to be forgiven. The FOV is really bad but it's somewhat mitigated by how fast and deadly Zero's saber is. When you dash and an enemy suddenly appears right in your face, as long as you react with even one pixel of space between you and him you'll probably oneshot him and avoid damage. On the other hand, the blind leaps into hazards are indefensible memorizer garbage.

The crazy amount of bloat is annoying but you can safely ignore most of it. Less so in 1 and 2 with their stupid experience systems and unskippable cutscenes. Grinding crystals can be avoided by not using cyber elves. Wandering around your base is pretty pointless but so are the items you get for it. Even the scoring system isn't too important if you don't want to engage with it. iirc MMZ4 is the only one where unlockable attacks are very important and you don't need a good score to unlock them there.

[heatimusZ4]

Soooooo the zero/zx collection got released months ago and the newcomers to the Zero franchise are taking interests on it, which is nice but no one in here is gonna talk about the ZX saga? (ZX & ZX Advent)

Lame..

[Sumez]

I just finished ZX yesterday.

It was in no way as good as I remembered it. It was fine, I guess, but I don't think I'd really recommend it to anyone.
I actually started hating the "story" by the end, and just skipped through everything so I could get on to playing DrillLand instead.

[NYN]

Tacking a hub world to an MM title is no small offense. Considering how they established the stage select overall. I dare say I have solid orientation when it comes to progressing, but was often lost in it. Taking a wrong turn with the wrong mission equipped should not come this easy. That's stepping backwards.

[Sumez]

Lol yes. I think the game's "map" (and lack of instructions on where you need to go) has received enough criticism as it is, and it's kind of baffling to me they could make it this obtuse.

But what's even the point of an interconnected "metroidvania" map when the game does nothing to reward exploration? Trying to check out areas you can go to without having a mission there will exclusively result in you wasting your time.

[Sima Tuna]

Is this where the mega mans talk goes? It feels like I could post in run n guns, R2RKMF or a dozen other threads.

I picked up both of the classic collections recently on my Switch. This is hardly the first time I played Mega Man. The classics were an old emulator favorite and I had the ps2 collection as well. But I never really bothered to beat the classic mega mens. So that's what I'm trying to do now. Not pushing for a 1cc at this time, since the spike screens on levels with no checkpoints give me a bad case of malding. I'm just trying for simple clears of all the games. Except mega man 1, because fuck mega man 1. I am not clearing that one or even trying. I hate mega man 1. I think it is legitimately a bad game.

Progress so far:

Mega Man 2: Seems really easy. I've finished most of the robot masters by spamming metal blades. The instant death hazards are fairly frequent though. I enjoy most of these robot master battles. They strike a good balance between reaction-based and hard pattern-locked bosses.

Mega Man 3: haven't gotten to it yet. Never cleared. I've been close in the past though.

Mega Man 4: haven't gotten to it yet. Never cleared. Played in the past.

Mega Man 5: Cleared today. I remember loving this one back on the ps2 collection, but I kinda hated it this time. The 8 robot master stages are fine. The battles were either a little annoying or totally bland. Not much in-between. The auto-scroller in Wave Man's stage can suck a dick. It's so fucking boring. Lives drop way too frequently. The Proto levels were... Okay, I guess. Lot of traps and instant death spikes. But then the Wily levels come along and I thought they were pretty bad. I'm pretty sure the falling dudes in the Wily 1 boss have completely fucked hitboxes. The Wily 2 boss put me to sleep. The final gauntlet right before the last boss was bullshit too. The chicken walkers cannot be beaten no-damage using the default buster without backing up! Which then causes another one to spawn. They deal a shitload of damage and there is no checkpoint in the boss shutters like Mega Man games usually have. The game breaks its own established rules (checkpoints at boss shutters) just to be a fucking cock. I might go back and do this one "legit," but I ended up save stating in the boss shutters because fuck that design. No idea how you dodge the Super Arrow Wily form. He throws out a ton of attacks and it lags the screen to hell, causing inputs to drop. INB4 I become DSP and blame lag for my poor playing skills.

The weapons are complete shit in MM5 too. Most of them take too much weapon energy to use or they don't do what they're supposed to. Charge Kick would be good for moving past large enemies, like the walkers, except that it doesn't give you any i-frames. Star Man's shield would be good to protect yourself while platforming, except it runs out very fast. Gravity Hold just straight-up doesn't affect the enemies you would want to use it on. Then there's weapons like Power Stone and Wave Crash (I think that's the name?) that suck immense amounts of ass for no reason.

Mega Man 6: I really like this one. I'm about halfway through the robot masters (edit: on this current playthrough). Flame Man's stage is one of my favorite classic MM levels. He has boppin' music, some fantastic stage gimmicks, a lot of unique enemies and a pretty alright boss fight. Nothing to really complain about. I love MM6's introduction of the Rush Adapters. Who doesn't want to HENSHIN into One-Punch Mega, and bust a robot across the chops? I feel like these boss designs are mostly an improvement over MM5. The concept of a Mega Ball Z World Tournament arc is fun. Old Capcom loves their racial/national stereotypes, but I think it's well-intentioned this time.

Mega Man 7: Barely played. I hate how little you can see on a single screen. The sprites are way too big.

Mega Man 8: Never played. Looks bad.

Mega Man 9: Haven't played yet.

Mega Man 10: Cleared on Easy, will clear on Normal later. I wanted to get some time in with the NES games before going back to this one. I love MM10. It is probably my favorite Mega Man game. I used to play it a ton on Wii. Probably the only game I played a ton on Wii, honestly. Three characters with unique play styles, some fantastic robot master designs (nitro man is so sick) and amazing music. I'd rank the tunes up there with MM2 and MM3.

Mega Man 11: Haven't played yet and probably won't for a while. I like sprite art.

A note on the collections:

The MM1 Legacy Collection had noticeable lag on my Switch when I booted it up. I'm playing on joycons in handheld, which is as little lag as I can get. It still felt very laggy. I turned off the turbo mode (which removes NES frame drops, sprite flicker etc) and it seemed to become snappier. But I can't be certain. The game still feels a bit laggy and that's a shame. I've decided to just play with it for now.

The good news is that the MM2 Legacy Collection lag situation is better. Not sure about MM7, but MM9 and MM10 seem to be straight native ports and they feel super nice to control. The MM1 LC lag wasn't unplayable levels of bad, but MM9 and MM10 definitely feel better by comparison. I wish I could find some good lag testing numbers for the Switch release, but I haven't found any so far.

[Sima Tuna]

MM5 is blander than I remember. The lack of any good boss weapons hurts that game and the autoscroller in the middle of Wave Man's level isn't very good or replayable.

Yeah, MM5 has the worst boss weapons of the NES games. The "best" weapon is Gyro Blade, which is only good by virtue of is being decent in a weapon set that's frankly bad. It's an attack you can angle up and down but it's still worse than Elec Beam, Metal Blade, Shadow Blade, Pharaoh Shot, and Knight Crush which all work better as aimable or vertical hitting weapons.

Wave Cannon and Charge Kick are both exceptionally weak for how limited they are (and the fact you can't shoot normally with Charge Kick really hurts). Star Crash is decent as a barrier, but pricy to use, Gravity Man's weapon doesn't have the oomph Rain Flush had, Napalm Man's weapon is worse than Bubble Lead, Search Snake, and Wind Storm. Crystal Eye is awkward to aim (though better than Gemini Beam). Power Stone deals a measly 1 damage to non boss enemies, making it useless except for hitting flying enemies that die in one hit (the large number of projectiles makes it good there).

The music in MM5 is exceptional though, with some of the best castle stage tunes, so it's worth experiencing for that.

I really like MM6. The Rush Adapters are cool as heck. I wish they were kept for subsequent games.

Yeah, they were a great idea. They show up again in one of the SNES games. MM6 actually has some very effective weapons too, with Flame Blast dealing insane damage, Silver Tomahawk, Yamato Spear, Knight Crush, and Wind Storm all being solidly dependable. Its weapons sometimes get said to be iffy, but really that's only because they're in a game with a chargeable buster that also has Rush Power and Rush Jet, causing them to be overshadowed by those.

Gyro Attack is not that great. The way you aim it requires a weird timing dance which makes fights against bosses and moving enemies way more obnoxious than they otherwise would be. The rest of the weapons are mostly shit. I will stan for Crystal Eye a BIT. I mean, at least it's straightforward and has a wide hitbox. You can spam it to kill rats and other crouching enemies. At least until the crystal misses, shatters and ruins your day. I also think Crystal Eye works pretty well in the Napalm Man fight, since you can fire it regardless of your facing and it will nearly always hit Napalm Man. Doesn't matter where he is on the screen either. So that's cool. All the other weapons are trash. The star shield costs way too much for consistent usage. You get maybe 1 try at a platforming segment and if you die, all your shield energy will be gone.

Many of the weapons in MM5 are so awful they don't even work against the boss who is supposed to be weak vs them! Charge Man i-frame bullies his way through the rocks, IF they even hit him. Gravity Man damages you if your sprite makes contact with him, regardless whether or not you have the star shield up. Stone Man is easier to hit with the buster. Charge Kick sends you directly into Wave Man, where you are almost certain to take contact damage. Even if you space him perfectly, Wave Man will just spawn the wave at the end of your charge kick.

MM6 weapons have been much better so far. There are some weird traveling arcs, but they generally deal solid damage. As you say, if not for the fact that armors are so powerful, the boss special weapons would see more use.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Gyro Attack is not that great.

Oh absolutely not. It's a decent to average weapon in a game filled with vastly underwhelming weapons, hence why it was Mineyl's pick in the MM5 Gadgeteer (boss weapons only) run as the first weapon to collect. I can't remember the annotations, but out of all the weapons in MM5, it's the one that works most reliably in a variety of situations, and also allows you defeat the boss it's weak to without any ammo issues in the stage itself, but it's certainly by no means good compared to other genuinely good weapons:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9f_qkiJil0

Mineyl's got boss weapon only runs of all the games, and had very detailed annotations which since got destroyed by Youtube (hence why I'm a firm believer in hardcoded subtitles for posterity).

I will stan for Crystal Eye a BIT.

Bouncy weapons are cool in theory, but because you can't fire it at an angle at a floor or ceiling, its uses are limited largely to direct damage. It's Gyro Blade without the control. Its speed makes it considerably better than the near-useless Gemini Laser, a previous bouncy weapon which was slow as to be outright cumbersome (but does one-shot a few key enemies like the porcupines?).

I agree with your comments about the boss weapons feeling rather bad against the bosses they're supposed to be weak to, aside from Stone Man maybe (Napalm worked decently well vs Stone for me). Stone vs Charge Man can be awkward if you don't have Power Stone's firing arc memorized.

Charge Kick is one of the series' worst weapons IMO, along with with Bomb Man's weapon (near impossible to hit with), Flash Stopper (highly situationally useful, useless in most areas), and Spark Shot (you can't switch weapons while enemies are stunned iirc, and enemies still do contact damage, making it useless in a lot of situations where enemies are too big jump over or slide under). The fact that MM5 thought it was wise to put two ground only attacks in the game was somewhat baffling. At least Wave Man's weapon isn't entirely worthless thanks to it being a projectile.

I can't say I like what the SNES era games did with boss weaknesses though. Bosses that were weak to weapons would not only take major damage but would go into a stagger animation that often interrupted whatever they were doing, meaning having the weapon specific to that boss REALLY trivialized certain fights. The NES games felt better balanced. Stronger weapons, but you couldn't get out of outright dodging attacks either unless your weapon was super strong against the boss as several are in MM2.