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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:07 pm 


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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
Really? I thought everyone was nuts for the NES version of Tetris and the TGM versions are relatively unknown by comparison. At least that's the impression I get from tournaments, but I suppose an NES is a lot easier to setup for a tourney than an actual PCB but maybe it's part of that.

Even among NES players, at this point the majority of them are really young, and though a few of them probably still got started on NES in recent years due to the continuing popularity of CTWC, they are all of the "modern Tetris" generation.
TGM at least does not have hold, not until the third game which definitely isn't my cup of tea. TGM2 on the other hand is the perfect evolution of classic old-school Tetris as I see it. A fantastic masterpiece of a game.

Regarding tournaments, I'm actually responsible for running a major annual NES Tetris tournament myself. And I'd say moreso than convenience, NES Tetris wins out here as it's simply the superior choice in terms of presenting the game as a spectator sport.
Vs. games in modern guideline-based variants is way too quick and confusing for anyone to follow, not to mention commentate on. While NES Tetris is still very fast, it appears slower due to the lack of lock delay, and the simpler rules makes it easier for people who aren't necessarily proficient at the game to follow. The games are longer which makes for more exciting matches, as any single mistake could cause either player to top out at any moment.
There's a lot more going on that you can't really see if you aren't into the game, due to the awkward quirks of the controls in this version - it's being able control this that really decides who's the superior player, but even if you aren't aware of that, the game still looks intuitive enough for anyone to see when someone makes an obvious mistake.

As a huge TGM fan myself I've been consistently thinking about and discussing with other fans what would be an ideal competition format to introduce those games as a part of the annual event. The classic format used in TGM contests is a race to the end of the game, but at least at the relatively low popularity the series is at now, something at least a bit more inclusive and intuitive is necessary. The consistency of the game means that the result of a race is often given beforehand. But I guess that's the case for a lot of racing disciplines.

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This is an apt comparison. I prefer the modernized arcade games over the older NES game, but I can see the charm of not having a hold button as a limitation. Having played through stuff like Giga Wing without reflect and Espgaluda without Kakusei, it helps you appreciate those abilities more when you don't have them, and appreciate how capable the player character is without them.


I'd say it's more of core design concept than a "charm". When you're using hold entirely for survival purposes it feels like you're removing something from the game, rather than adding. Maybe it's more of an auto-bomb? :P It's more of a step to the side than a step forward anyway.

Steamflogger Boss wrote:
PRGE also has TGM tournaments and a bunch of Tetris tournaments in general. The NES one is what everyone cares about and gets the pub though.

I've been to PRGE the past two years, and neither have had a TGM tournament. I know there's been something in the past like once or twice, but it's very minor. CTWC has always been about NES Tetris, to the point where a lot of people think NES Tetris is called "Classic Tetris" >_>


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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:24 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
Steamflogger Boss wrote:
PRGE also has TGM tournaments and a bunch of Tetris tournaments in general. The NES one is what everyone cares about and gets the pub though.

I've been to PRGE the past two years, and neither have had a TGM tournament. I know there's been something in the past like once or twice, but it's very minor. CTWC has always been about NES Tetris, to the point where a lot of people think NES Tetris is called "Classic Tetris" >_>


Didn't know they got rid of it. Shows how much attention I'm paying to it.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:29 pm 


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Yeah, and it wasn't too well received in some circles. Apparently there was a big thing planned for 2018 before it was cancelled without warning.


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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:32 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
Yeah, and it wasn't too well received in some circles. Apparently there was a big thing planned for 2018 before it was cancelled without warning.


That's really unfortunate. You would think the more Tetris the merrier. I enjoyed watching it I want to say in 2016 or 2017.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:46 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
TGM2 on the other hand is the perfect evolution of classic old-school Tetris as I see it. A fantastic masterpiece of a game.


TGM2 is actually my fave as well. I don't play Tetris too often and forgot if it had Hold or not (something I can take or leave). TGM2 has that insanely fun 2 player coop mode which makes it really fun in a crowd, though TGM3 is more popular at the local meets.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:02 pm 


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Man what wouldn't I give for local meets [outside of my own house] with TGM present :o


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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:44 pm 


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If you have a place to host, and preferably an arcade cab or two, you're pretty much there for hosting arcade/shmup meets. Just need locals to hang with. :P
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:02 pm 


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Well there's the issue you see :P


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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:30 am 


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I wish there were people in my area that were down for retro gaming meets -_-



On another note : people who make money on shipping...

I'm negociating buying a cart from this guy on facebook and I know that shipping a cart here costs $10 via Canada Post. So I ask him "how much extra for shipping the cart?"

"$20".

-_-
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:54 am 


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Sumez wrote:
With that out of the way, it pains me that people actually believe so hard in what they are saying. That having some sort of consequence for failing in a video game is archaic, bad design, "fake difficulty", etc.
Why the hell are you even playing a game which is about succesfully completing an action (jumping a hole, defeating an enemy, etc.) if you don't want it to make a difference whether you do complete said action or not?
I kiiiiiind of get it if you've grown up playing only modern game with a focus on story and setpieces, and barely any action gameplay. I'm sure it makes it hard to grasp the idea of a pure action game. But I get this approach more often from people of my own generation who feel like they are too adult and busy and kids-having to sit down and spend time on playing any single stage of an old-school game more than once.


I think there may be a tiiiny bit of strawmanning going on with this particular post, even if the attitude you are referring to does seem to be pretty common. That being said, what I really wanted to reply to was:

Sumez wrote:
Lol, I can't tell if I've seen that video before and forgotten it, but (re?)watching it I can't help the feeling that AG99 was actually just an incredibly well crafted troll account.

EDIT: I wish I could remember what he got banned for. He managed to edit the post away. :(


I think this is giving him too much credit. He was just your typical lonely, socially inept teenager. There was a certain lack of self-awareness in his posts that makes it hard for me to believe he was trolling. Those embarrassing threads about the kid at his school that wasn't using a CRT also seem too genuinely cringe-worthy to be made up.

Blinge wrote:
Also the semantic arguments are annoying. I know someone who refuses to budge from claiming to have 'beaten' a shmup, despite credit feeding the entire thing. Where is the act of beating occuring?


See, that's the thing. Because the continue feature is so readily available, people just see it as part of the game. As far as they are concerned, "Game Over" in any arcade game with continues doesn't actually mean "Game Over", it just means "Insert Coins to Keep Playing".

I myself wasn't aware of the "1-credit rule" until I read the article by that guy we don't like to talk about.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:28 am 



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WelshMegalodon wrote:

I myself wasn't aware of the "1-credit rule" until I read the article by that guy we don't like to talk about.


I would personally call it the "1-credit philosophy", or maybe "ethos"? "approach"? yes, semantics shmemantics, but I generally tend to think that rules involve consequences if you infringe them, e.g. rules in sports.

As a kid growing up in arcades I followed it because my pocket money would simply last longer. The one who shall not be named (!), if I recall correctly, wrote an essay claiming that people attending arcades were somehow following this rule explicitly, as if they wouldn't get tokens at the counter if they wouldn't sign a formal agreement on the rule/philosophy/whatever.

I am generally puzzled (but not surprised) about this attitude, so I was wondering what is your (or, well, anyone else's) take on this...unwarranted inference.

I do have the essay in paperback copy, btw (?!).
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:52 am 


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Randorama wrote:
As a kid growing up in arcades I followed it because my pocket money would simply last longer. The one who shall not be named (!), if I recall correctly, wrote an essay claiming that people attending arcades were somehow following this rule explicitly, as if they wouldn't get tokens at the counter if they wouldn't sign a formal agreement on the rule/philosophy/whatever.


this is an absurd take on your part.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:24 pm 



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Blinge wrote:

this is an absurd take on your part.


I don't doubt it, but why?
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:18 pm 


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WelshMegalodon wrote:
Sumez wrote:
With that out of the way, it pains me that people actually believe so hard in what they are saying. That having some sort of consequence for failing in a video game is archaic, bad design, "fake difficulty", etc.
[...]
I get this approach more often from people of my own generation who feel like they are too adult and busy and kids-having to sit down and spend time on playing any single stage of an old-school game more than once.


I think there may be a tiiiny bit of strawmanning going on with this particular post, even if the attitude you are referring to does seem to be pretty common.

A bit of conjecture maybe, but no strawmen, unfortunately. All of what I posted is arguments that I hear constantly every time this is brought up in nearly any online community outside of this. The top part is explicitly represented by the screenshot I posted on the previous page.

Randorama wrote:
but I generally tend to think that rules involve consequences if you infringe them, e.g. rules in sports.

I think you countered your own argument there.
I mean I get your point, and I'm willing to go with it, since it's only semantics anyway.
But I think it also bears mentioning that no one is forcing you to follow the rule in a sport either. If you want to kick the ball in a basketball match, go right ahead. Like people who are arguing against 1cc's being the way to go: "Don't tell me how to play the game". If you think it's more fun to play that way, it's all in your power to do it, even if it's not the way the game was designed.
Sure, if you're in an official basketball match, kicking the ball would have penalty. But if you're playing an arcade game in some kind of scoring contest, continuing the game would also get you disqualified.


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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:06 pm 


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https://twitter.com/ScrubQuotesX/status ... 9426958336

Entertaining thread and relevant to the current topic.

Edit: Didn't realize how much topkek drama there was over the fighting game characters in Smash. Amazing.

In fact just so no one misses this gem

Spoiler: show
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:53 pm 


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The fuck.

to be a 'technical' tourney player in smash (to any degree of competence) anyway you have to use busted ass movement tech that's harder than a fucking shoryu input. twat.

I am thinking more about melee, but maybe smash ultimate has some stuff? I mean.. there's probably something. Those tourney nerds always find something.

reminds me of this tongue in cheek gem:
Y U WANNA TALK ABOUT FOX

if u play fox u will not get gash
u will get gashed by marth's F-smash
sliced in half and dumped in the trash
flushed down the loo like discard stash.

BARS
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:27 pm 



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Sumez wrote:
Randorama wrote:
but I generally tend to think that rules involve consequences if you infringe them, e.g. rules in sports.

I think you countered your own argument there.
I mean I get your point, and I'm willing to go with it, since it's only semantics anyway.


Just not to lose track of ourselves: I didn't want to really propose an argument but rather I was asking if I was missing some finer point of semantics along the way, hence the half-baked point.

Quote:
But I think it also bears mentioning that no one is forcing you to follow the rule in a sport either. If you want to kick the ball in a basketball match, go right ahead. Like people who are arguing against 1cc's being the way to go: "Don't tell me how to play the game". If you think it's more fun to play that way, it's all in your power to do it, even if it's not the way the game was designed.
Sure, if you're in an official basketball match, kicking the ball would have penalty. But if you're playing an arcade game in some kind of scoring contest, continuing the game would also get you disqualified.


Well, I am losing your point, probably. Let me try to be clear about my (half-baked turning to completely baked..) ideas, and see if I am understanding your point, too.

As someone who has played lots of sports, whenever I broke the rules I had to engage with a ref who would sanction me according to an official rule book. I played rugby, so there have been many times in which I simply said "yes, sir, sorry sir", because the sport involves a rulebook that borders on the arcane, and usually players do not know all the rules. Thus, if the ref blowed the whistle, half of the time I would simply follow the ref's orders and be done with it.

However, when it comes to video games in general, outside official tournaments, I would talk about the "1-coin approach", myself, to underline that some people play videogames in a certain way to better experience the original design behind the game. I am not even proposing a specific term, to be fair.

We can then have a tournament in which this becomes a rule, and a ref will probably drag a player away from the cabinet if the player tries to continue and argue "wtf I am not cheating by continuining".

It is purely semantics shmemantics, but I admit that I am (probably) getting confused about...well, how people are trying to define notions such as "bad design", "cheating" "gate-keeping", "rules", in relation to action gaming and 1-CC'ing games, I guess.

Have you ever had the feeling of walking into a conversation more than halfway and feeling *completely* at loss on how people are debating an apparently familiar topic? The last few days I had the clear impression that I was not following the discussion in this thread (duh!).

Then again, I am spending my days handling red tape at work, even on holiday days...
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:54 pm 



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Double-post, and then I will go lurking again.

!!"#"@ work-driven life.

Unless it is work-related, I am finding myself out of depth in any conversation. A friend tried to discuss sport news (the rugby, in fact) with me this afternoon, and I genuinely had no idea on what has happened in the last four months (some team has won the world cup, and that's all I knew).

I should have inherited a fortune, dammit.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:16 pm 


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Randorama wrote:
Blinge wrote:

this is an absurd take on your part.


I don't doubt it, but why?


I mean your portrayal is a bit absurd.
I thought the clam was just describing the arcade culture in japan and how it is there, and why he likes it.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:50 pm 


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So this is definitely a pretty minor thing but people that upload songs to youtube but then have 1-2 (or more...) minutes of dead time after the video ends. Annoying for when you want to autoplay some bullshit music.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:42 am 


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I know! :)

1. Hire a bunch of 20 somethings.

2. Create a work culture where people are encouraged to spend all their time on campus (with multiple services provided to make it possible to spend all your free time at work)

3. Act all surprised and shocked when people start hooking up with people they work with.

Fuck. Seriously? You're surprised?

The world is full of morons that apparently never lived a life--or conveniently forget how life works to get in on the "outrage" culture.

You can't mash a bunch of 20 somethings together all day everyday and expect them to date outside of their artificially restricted social circle created by their life and soul eating job.

If you don't want employees to date, send them home.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:38 pm 


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Sounds like a commune.

Get ready for the inbred stage where everyone has already dated, cheated on, fucked each other in all possible combinations! :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:57 am 


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Seeing pictures of people's setup when they own multiple arcade cabinets, and not one of them has the screen in vertical.


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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:17 am 


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Sumez wrote:
Seeing pictures of people's setup when they own multiple arcade cabinets, and not one of them has the screen in vertical.


Depends on the cabinet. The only cab I kept is a Double Dragon conversion, for obvious reasons.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:24 pm 


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Sure, I'm mostly thinking of generic cabs, candies etc. And like I said, when someone has more of them. I have one cab and it's mostly in horizontal orientation, because that's what a majority of my games are. And I'd wish I had the space for a second cab so I could keep one permanently vertical, for easy swapping out of games!


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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:05 pm 


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My ISP likes to shutdown internet access if the latest bill isn't paid off before 20th. I usually get the bill on 19th.


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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:14 pm 


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call them and tell them you'll switch if they don't cut that crap
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:27 pm 


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Unless you just can't do it financially I recommend automating all your payments. I did it years ago and never looked back. It's great.
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