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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:46 pm 


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So yeah, Secret of Mana is an okay game. Like 6.5/10.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:24 pm 


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:'(
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:30 pm 


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Saving the crossbow bolts at the moment

Wise decision


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:39 pm 


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Steamflogger Boss wrote:
So yeah, Secret of Mana is an okay game. Like 6.5/10.


That was my assessment of the game too. Ambitious and competent, but not particuarly good either, due to being let down by stuff like weak combat mechanics compared to other top down action/exploration games (Secret of Mana's combat doesn't hold a candle to Beyond Oasis, Brain Lord, Legend of Zelda: A Link To The Past, etc). Its plot in particular suffered due to development issues and ends up being less interesting than even the first Mana game (released as Final Fantasy Adventure) was. If it had been released with the plot as originally conceived it would have probably been considerably more memorable, gameplay issues aside.


m.sniffles.esq wrote:
Saving the crossbow bolts at the moment
Wise decision


I'm assuming you eventually can convert a lot of it to gunpowder type bolts? Otherwise they're fairly unimpressive, despite being plentiful. They're about as strong as handgun bullets are on zombies, but don't seem to stagger or knock them back as well. I've been using them to avoid damage on the big stretchy arm things since 3 bolts seems to kill them? Though I've read the game has buggy hit detection and possibly enemies have i-frames during their stagger animation, so it might only be 2 bolts per kill if I wait for their stagger to end...
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:02 pm 


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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
m.sniffles.esq wrote:
Saving the crossbow bolts at the moment


I'm assuming you eventually can convert a lot of it to gunpowder type bolts? Otherwise they're fairly unimpressive, despite being plentiful.


I swear to god I remember firing like a dozen of those regular bolts into a zombie before it fell. It's basically a pointless waste to use any bolt that you can later turn into an exploding bolt.

Quote:
I've been using them to avoid damage on the big stretchy arm things since 3 bolts seems to kill them?


Something like that. That's the classic way to dispose of them. I'm not sure if the game does even damage on all enemy types, regardless of the weapon used, but exploding rounds always seemed to be super effective on the bandersnatch.

Actually, I think there is some per-enemy effectiveness for weapons. I know the BOW round ammo is specifically useful for the giant spiders for example.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:31 pm 


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RE Crossbow Bolts

Spoiler: show
If I recall, if you don't have a whole bunch of them for the cargo plane boss (end of disc 1 on the DC version) you're basically fucked


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:49 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
I swear to god I remember firing like a dozen of those regular bolts into a zombie before it fell. It's basically a pointless waste to use any bolt that you can later turn into an exploding bolt.


The game literally gives you hundreds and hundreds of bolts though; I can't imagine finding enough powder to turn all of them into exploding bolts because it'd end up being game breaking. They're basically equivalent to a grenade round or possibly a flame round? I might use the bolts on zombies until I have like a hundred left since bullets seem to be better than regular bolts are.

There's definitely damage per enemy on weapon types in the RE series, where weapon damage is adjusted on specific enemies so "weaknesses" apply. For instance, acid rounds in RE3 are very effective against Gravedigger and Spiders if I recall, whereas flame rounds were stronger on spiders in RE2, with acid being highly useful for the bosses. RE0 also does this with the special leech zombies, who are highly susceptible to flame rounds but soak up bullets and shotgun shells like sponges (possibly molotovs as well; their range kinda sucks so I resorted to grenades when possible). Magnum rounds didn't even seem all that impressive on them.

I've got multiple other "big" ammo types available I'm saving since I know I need boss-tier ammo at the ready when one shows up (acid, flame, and gas rounds), and worse comes to worse if I'm low on bolts or something can soak them up, I've got a few grenades to throw at anything scary that shows up.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:46 pm 


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m.sniffles.esq wrote:
RE Crossbow Bolts

Spoiler: show
If I recall, if you don't have a whole bunch of them for the cargo plane boss (end of disc 1 on the DC version) you're basically fucked



Spoiler: show
I think the grenade launcher is also effective. There's some nonsense trick with opening the door that makes the whole thing possible that they of course don't tell you about and you have to rage-quite level die like a half dozen times before it becomes apparent. (at least I did)


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:29 pm 


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@vol.2

Spoiler: show
I couldn't do it with the grenade launcher, it doesn't shoot quickly enough to hold him off. Opening the doors is how you get rid of him once his health is down. But, the first time I played, I saved EVERY grenade round (they're the strongest right?) and used bolts for the stretch-arms etc. I COULD NOT get him. Consulted an FAQ, rage threw some shit, tried using the the launcher 25-30 more times. Finally had to do ALL of disc one over again

If someone asks me how I remember all of this, well, it was pretty memorable...


@BareKnuckleRoo

I really can't say anymore without spoilers, if you don't care or want the advance info, click the above


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:50 pm 


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FinalBaton wrote:
:'(


Honestly I'm enjoying it well enough. That's a real 6.5 on a 10 point scale not ERMAGERD IT'S TRASH modern vidya game review scale.

The visual presentation is a strong attribute as is the music.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:39 am 


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The music is god-tier indeed
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:22 am 


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Steamflogger Boss wrote:
FinalBaton wrote:
:'(


Honestly I'm enjoying it well enough. That's a real 6.5 on a 10 point scale not ERMAGERD IT'S TRASH modern vidya game review scale.

The visual presentation is a strong attribute as is the music.

I love Secret of Mana, but I realize the story suffers and the last 20% really feels rushed. I do like the combat, though, and can't really get behind people's dislike of it, but I guess it's not for everyone. It still remains top tier for me, but I'm willing to chalk a lot of that up to nostalgia.


Last edited by o.pwuaioc on Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:40 am 


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o.pwuaioc wrote:
I love Secret of Mana, but I realize the story suffers and the last 20% really feels rushed. I do like the combat, though, and can't really get behind people's dislike of it, but I guess it's not for everyone. It still reminds top tier for me, but I'm willing to chalk a lot of that up to nostalgia.

^^^^^^^^
Pretty much this, yeah
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:22 am 


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It's just kinda clunky and doesn't feel great. There is also a shit ton of back tracking, like more than normal for an rpg.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:34 am 


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Steamflogger Boss wrote:
It's just kinda clunky and doesn't feel great. There is also a shit ton of back tracking, like more than normal for an rpg.

The pause and choose menu can be clunky in comparison to an action RPG, but imo not so much a JRPG. To me it's an ideal middle ground between endless lists of Final Fantasy II and the simple selections of Zelda. There is a lot of backtracking and getting lost and confused directions, but I didn't mind it all that much. At least it doesn't register as a negative in my memory. Not knowing where to go did, though. That was annoying. At least with backtracking in the late game we had Flammie.

Again, this might be a case of rosy tinted glasses, but when I first played this, I really did place it among the best RPG/Adventure games I had ever played, and that impression didn't fade with time, and I've played it 3 times since the 90s. Take that as you will.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:08 am 


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Secret of Mana's combat is garbage. No skill, no strategy, tons of needless waiting. Wait for your attack meter to hit 100%. Wait for the charge up move to be ready. Wait for the bad guy's extremely generous mercy invincibility to wear off. The optimal strategy is to stunlock everything in an infinite magic combo. The feedback on when an attack fails is very poor, you don't know whether your character failed their accuracy roll, or if you the player missed, or if the monster is currently invincible. I think the only cool thing you can do is that glitch where you charge your special attack to like level 100 and do 999 damage.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:27 am 


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The people heaping praise on Secret of Mana's combat either heavily overvalue the multiplayer novelty (there are better multiplayer RPGs out there, including top-down action RPGs with local multiplayer), or haven't put serious play into a top-down adventure/action game with an actually praiseworthy combat system. Everything Vanguard said about it is 100% spot on. Constantly pausing the game to stunlock enemies with spells is not a particularly compelling battle system, and neither is the whole standing around waiting to charge up attacks constantly.

re: Code Veronica:

First death to Tyrant 1. Learned the hard way that unlike previous games (or even the worm in CV that's outside the training facility) you can't simply run past it, even if you knock it down to its knees briefly. I dawdled for too long with trying to squeeze past it, only to get knocked down repeatedly into the flames, apparently an instant kill. Ammo was no issue as I had a boatload of everything except exploding bolts left. Annoyingly I lost multiple bolts trying to figure out how to get the bolt powder in the basement where those arm stretchy dudes (Bandersnatches apparently) kept respawning every time I checked back. Claire simply refuses to climb the boxes to get the powder that's like right there because
Spoiler: show
apparently only Chris can actually be bothered to get these, lol.


m.sniffles.esq wrote:
Spoiler: show
I couldn't do it with the grenade launcher, it doesn't shoot quickly enough to hold him off. Opening the doors is how you get rid of him once his health is down. But, the first time I played, I saved EVERY grenade round (they're the strongest right?) and used bolts for the stretch-arms etc. I COULD NOT get him.


There's an easier way:
Spoiler: show
Unlike the first fight, the plane is wide enough to safely run circles around him. No ammo's actually needed to finish the fight if you just keep sending the catapult at him. Also, you can use the B.O.W. Gas grenades for an easy win if you need to; on enemies vulnerable to them, each hit halves apparently halves their remaining health. Basic grenade rounds are strong in this game but their range sucks due to how they tend to spread erratically. Tap up slightly before firing to get them more spread forward.


I'll probably restart fresh as it doesn't feel satisfying to beat until I can beat it without any deaths from start to finish. It's a solid RE game from what I can tell, although it feels fairly easy resourcewise as Claire. I was able to stockpile an absolutely insane amount of health and ammo by the end of the first half. The main difficulty seems to come from learning what specific enemies can one-shot you, and also where enemies respawn after events so as not to waste too much ammo. There's a lot of rooms where enemies respawn frequently, especially compared to earlier RE games where having enemy spawns in rooms change or respawn was a rare occurrence that usually only happened after a major plot milestone.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:23 am 


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Haven't played properly in like a decade but i found it oddly satisfying when all the damage finally catches up to them and they spontaneously combust.

omae wa mu, shindeiru.

But maybe that's because I was wondering if they were taking damage at all so seeing them explode was like a relief moment.
but don't be talking to me like alttp's combat doesn't feel like wank. :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:47 am 


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I liked the Secret of Mana combat back in the days simply because it was unique. At the very least I don't mind it.
And I never thought of it as an action RPG in the first place. To me it just felt like a cool way to mask more tactically driven combat as an action system. I don't think comparing it to stuff like Zelda or Brain Lord even makes sense.

And yeah you don't need to tell me that SoM combat isn't very tactical at all :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:06 am 


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i wish i could play it with friends :(

i wish i had friends.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:39 am 


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Maybe we can make up and be friends again some day ;)


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:10 am 


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Played through an interesting game yesterday.

Spoiler: show
Image


Sugoro Quest: Dice no Senshitachi is a board game/JRPG hybrid for the Famicom, where you play as one of four heroes on a quest to rid the kingdom of evil.

Spoiler: show
Image


You start out in the King's castle where you can purchase supplies and save your game. Each of the four heroes has their own personal equipment, but they share gold and consumable items. After you've prepared, speak to the guard to pick your character and begin your quest.

Spoiler: show
Image


On the world map you roll a six-sided die to determine how far your character will move, and then you deal with whatever you landed on. Healing spaces, equipment upgrades, side quests, and other things are scattered over Sugoro Quest's six maps. If you land on a blank space you get a random encounter. There's not a lot you can do to control where your character goes. Most of the time you're on a one way path. When you do hit an intersection, you might get a choice of which path to take, but often your route is decided by what you've done in that map's side quests. The side quests themselves are surprisingly complex and fun for such a simple game. Depending on what happens in stage 3 you'll either peacefully sail across the ocean, strenuously swim across the ocean, or, most likely, sail part of the way, get shipwrecked, and then swim to the end, with a few possible variations within each outcome.

Spoiler: show
Image


Combat is very luck-based, as you'd probably expect. Each character has an attack die and a magic die. Early on they'll only be able to roll low numbers, but as you level up their dice will improve. When you attack or cast a spell, your character throws the appropriate die and the enemy throws theirs as well. Whoever wins performs their action successfully and whoever loses misses their turn. If the winner chose a damaging action, the amount of damage increases based on how much higher their roll was. Obviously this can be frustrating as shit when your hero decides to start throwing a bunch of ones. Status effects, buffs, and debuffs always work as long as you won the roll, and some buffs and debuffs stack with themselves, so those are all good bets in a tough fight. Consumable items always work without needing to roll and using one doesn't end your turn. Drop a stack of slow dice on anything in the game and they'll become a helpless joke.

Spoiler: show
Image


If a character is incapacitated by, for example, getting beaned in the head and knocked out by a thrown die, they won't be able to roll their own die, meaning their defense roll will be zero and they'll take tons of damage every turn until they recover. A few paralyze spells can win you fights you had no business participating in, and an unlucky knockout can get you killed by the lowliest zako enemies.

Spoiler: show
Image


Probably the best of the characters is the Half Elf, who is a fighter/caster hybrid. Her magic is almost as reliable as the Elf's, and she learns most of the important spells while still being a capable melee fighter. Indeed, Half Elf learns some valuable spells that Elf never learns, and she learns many important spells earlier than Elf does. The prime example of this is the DiceCall spell. DiceCall can only be cast on the map and allows you to simply choose how many spaces you want to move on that turn, from 1 to 6. The power to land on every single healing space, to avoid every penalty space, to move as fast or slow as you like is obviously ridiculously good. Half Elf gets it at level 6, Elf has to wait until level 16. I'd say the next best is the Elf, largely because she's the other character who learns DiceCall. Ostensibly she's a magic attacker, but attack magic is absurdly, laughably terrible while status effects and buffs are insanely strong. Elf's best strategy seems to be to cast paralyze and then do melee attacks until the enemy recovers and then cast paralyze again. The Fighter is a strong melee attacker with good stats and a few useful magic spells, including the all-important heal spell he picks up at level 3. Your hp and mp are always capped at 999, leveling up doesn't affect that, so Fighter can start a mission and immediately burn all of his mp casting heal to give himself a ton of health to work with. The Dwarf is probably the worst, being only marginally stronger than the fighter and not learning any magic until level 19.

Spoiler: show
Image

I thought she was just talking shit


I don't believe the game ever tells you this, but to access stage 6 you need to speak directly to the king after completing stage 5. Also worth mentioning is that the first character to face the final boss in stage 6 will be automatically captured and permanently lost, so don't send in your favorite.

Sugoro Quest has no multiplayer, which is a bit disappointing. I like The Hundred World Story and Dokapon Kingdom for some bullshit multiplayer every now and again, and this might've been fun for the same reasons. There is a Super Famicom sequel which appears to be multiplayer-focused, but it's JP only. Anyway, Sugoro Quest is a big old luckfest, it's not very deep and it has serious balance problems, but it's also fairly charming and unique.

C+

The English fan translation can be found here.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:07 pm 


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eh, I think the combat in SoM is fine. Yes you got to lean in more into the enemy and yes every once in awhile they'll evade like in an rpg(and so do you), but I never ever got unhappy with it. Maybe it's part nostalgia but to me it's fun enough combat

Not saying I think it's masterful combat. But to me, discovering that people thought it was thrash, was a straight up shock. If that can explain where I'm coming from.

I'm like ''nicca wut? :lol: That game we all loved playing back then, is thrash all of a sudden? :lol: ''

I like Sumez's point of the combat needing to be evaluated to a different standard than we might be prompt to do.



Anyway, moving on
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:30 pm 


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Code Veronica:

Spoiler: show
Unlike the first fight, the plane is wide enough to safely run circles around him. No ammo's actually needed to finish the fight if you just keep sending the catapult at him. Also, you can use the B.O.W. Gas grenades for an easy win if you need to; on enemies vulnerable to them, each hit halves apparently halves their remaining health. Basic grenade rounds are strong in this game but their range sucks due to how they tend to spread erratically. Tap up slightly before firing to get them more spread forward.

I remember actually trying that but the catapult did such little damage to him, I eventually gave up. Patience was never my strong suit, I suppose


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:22 pm 


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Vanguard wrote:
I like The Hundred World Story


This is a really adorable game and I remember having a lot of fun with it. Unfortunately it still seems that the only English translation patch for it available is a bit janky and only functions with one specific, older emulator (Nesticle). Has there been any fix for this I'm unaware of or is that still the only way to play it in English?
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:25 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
Maybe we can make up and be friends again some day ;)


We can't , we have to give the people want they want and fight to the death.

I choose Turkish Oil Wrestling
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:34 pm 


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Vanguard wrote:
Played through an interesting game yesterday.

Sugoro Quest: Dice no Senshitachi


I love that game. It's totally a predecessor to a bunch of cell phone games. One thing I didn't like a whole lot is how randomly unfair or beneficial the dice rolls are.
It always feels like you are either crushing everyone or insta-dying. There needed to be some kind of stat buffer to make it so both you and the enemies would
slowly lose hit points or something.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:13 pm 


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Blinge wrote:
We can't , we have to give the people want they want and fight to the death.

I choose Turkish Oil Wrestling

:lol:
Thank you for your commitment to this gimmick. it is greatly appreciated
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:18 pm 


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Vanguard wrote:
Secret of Mana's combat is garbage. No skill, no strategy, tons of needless waiting. Wait for your attack meter to hit 100%. Wait for the charge up move to be ready. Wait for the bad guy's extremely generous mercy invincibility to wear off. The optimal strategy is to stunlock everything in an infinite magic combo. The feedback on when an attack fails is very poor, you don't know whether your character failed their accuracy roll, or if you the player missed, or if the monster is currently invincible.


Nailed it. If I was only in for the gameplay I'd be out.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:10 am 


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Bionic Commando: Elite Forces for GBC, any good?
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