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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:29 am 


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Someone at a meet last time fired up Neo Turf Masters and insisted it's one of the best golf games ever. I'm usually not one for sport games but apparently I need to give it a go as multiple people have sung its praises recently.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:50 am 


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FinalBaton wrote:
Yep, enemies sometime evade your hits, just like it happens in a turned-based RPG. and your character evades too

This mechanic has never bothered me, but it sure does seem to bother many people these days. I guess it's not for everyone

Yah it's never gotten in the way for me, didn't need even a full playtrough for the timings/pace to become natural and awesome to play, somewhow it feels 'organic' which I think is what pleased people so much. In the past.
But on vg forums where we now have plenty of around middle age people, they prefer a more mechanical/clockwork type of gameplay, the kind you can break down, measure, learn an optimize. As they age a lot of gamers tend to go on a quest for very specific stuff, and somehow maybe part of the ability to experience/enjoy the ancient stuff gets lost on the way if they only see the issues or rather cannot unsee everything that's not up to their standards, so it's kind of normal a gameplay like SoM's you rather have to 'feel' to adapt and deal with old concepts, wouldn't click. Same for the case of FF7, I'm glad I can still see why it was so good and enjoy it, and I'm sad for those who cannot. It's completely wrong and exaggerated to call these games broken shit, but heh, we're on the internet. :wink:

it290 wrote:
Damn y'all, my last two posts in this thread have been about Virtua Racing and Neo Turf Masters, and you guys are wanting to talk about Final Fantasy and Secret of Mana instead... I'm perhaps inappropriately saddened by this.

Well sorry, this is the [not shmup] thread, any genre goes.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:33 am 


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I enjoy Neo Turf Masters casually, but beyond that it's hard for me to see the appeal of any sports game. If someone could teach me about the actual depths of that game, I'd love to discuss it.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:58 am 


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Picked up Wonderboy Returns Remixed for Switch. The frame rate is absolutely dreadful, I'm not normally particularly sensitive to stuff like this, but it's shockingly jerky. Momentum is off - it kind of feels like the original game, except where that had had at least minimal control over your jumping, this just seems to go from moving to an instant stop if you release a direction. Just feels off. Bit disappointing really, and I believe the 'Remix' amounts to removing a bunch of stuff from the PS4 version.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:24 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
I enjoy Neo Turf Masters casually, but beyond that it's hard for me to see the appeal of any sports game. If someone could teach me about the actual depths of that game, I'd love to discuss it.


I think Neo sports games are best played casually with friends and beer but what do I know. In fact I was playing some street hoop the other day in that setting. :D
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:34 pm 


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I wholeheartedly recommend Goal! Goal! Goal! for this purpose.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:30 pm 


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On the gweeeen!


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:53 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
I wholeheartedly recommend Goal! Goal! Goal! for this purpose.


ISS Deluxe on SNES every time for me.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:26 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
It's completely wrong and exaggerated to call these games broken shit


SoM isn't "broken shit" - it's playable, just not super compelling or particularly enjoyable to play. I don't outright hate the game now that I've put a bit more time into it, but I don't actively want to play it either. The combat pacing isn't the most exciting where you basically keep stuff stunlocked indefinitely with knockdowns, and bosses are fairly bland and uninteresting when you realize they don't obey the same attack queueing rules and often get i-frames from spellcasting it's so much less hassle just spamming offensive magic rather than trying to melee them. Its single-player combat experience is a far cry from the likes of Zelda 3, Brain Lord, Illusion of Gaia, Terranigma, Beyond Oasis and its only real appeal in that sense over other top down games made around the same period is that it can be played multiplayer.

I think I'd be much more able to overlook my disappointment with the combat if the rest of the game made up for it. The characters have all the charm and personality of a baked potato (the exception being Flammie, he's pretty cute), the plot isn't particularly endearing, and hearing the same overworld music play for the better part of the early game well into multiple dungeons with no different music to distinguish the Haunted Forest and the Witch's Castle wasn't super exciting. The ring menu interface is also a mess to work with and makes playing the game far too much of a chore as you have to wait for the ring animations as you navigate the menu. When swapping weapons you can't see what exp level you're current at, so you have to go into the status menu on a separate ring to view, and the weapon/spell level menu doesn't let you switch characters when you're in it to view all three characters, unlike the character stats menu. The other option is switching to the character you want to change weapons and then trying to charge attack and see what level they're at that way. When buying and selling new armor it also takes forever to trundle through the menus compared to just about any other RPG interface out there, and stores for some reason don't indicate what stats/properties armor has (though it seems more or less more expensive always is better, I have yet to find any weaker armor that appears to have specific properties that would make them more desirable over stronger armor).

Sumez wrote:
Chrono Trigger's combat is also mostly completely non-satisfying due to how simple the stategy is, and every fight being mostly really easy, but it's still one of my favourite games.


Easy doesn't necessarily mean unenjoyable. The menu interface both in and out of combat is vastly better, there's multiple distinct characters to play with instead of three more or less the same characters who only differ slightly in stats and what magic they use, and Chrono Trigger's better in almost every conceivable way due to the story, characters, music, the exploration, etc. For the average game market it's probably better to err on the side of being easy, cause hardcore people will always find a way to make the game harder (stuff like FF6 natural magic only, low level runs, or FFX no sphere grid/summon/overdrive runs, etc).
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:35 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
I enjoy Neo Turf Masters casually, but beyond that it's hard for me to see the appeal of any sports game. If someone could teach me about the actual depths of that game, I'd love to discuss it.


I’d be happy to-it actually does have a ton of depth. The thing is that it’s an arcade game and can/should be treated like one, ie played for 1cc. Getting a par is the equivalent of losing a life, birdie is no-missing a hole, and eagle or above means you got an extend. As far as the actual gameplay, it’s rather like a sunup in that it’s all about learning your character and the course and executing a plan with a little bit of randomness and unpredictability thrown in; there’s a rank system at play, too. Scraping a bunch of hints off the n-g.com forums has helped me to up my game quite a bit, but the 1cc is still elusive. The only recommendation I’d make in terms of changing the default settings is that you should set the timer to 30min in the BIOS-having all the time in the world to plan each shot really does make the game way more enjoyable.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:15 pm 


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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
SoM isn't "broken shit" - it's playable, just not super compelling or particularly enjoyable to play.

Not for you. I see similar criticisms on the net from the people who don't like that game, but most of what they don't like about it didn't annoy the people who do enjoy it, quite the opposite it's those features that made them like the game (gameplay, menus, use of magic, weapons, graphics, musics, characters, story even if anecdotal, etc)

There's a lot of immensely popular games I don't like for various reasons, yet I can well understand their qualities and why people love them. What I don't understand is those massive amounts of hate posting (if you look at ff7 it's insane), they're way exaggerated, definitely. Some people can't admit that because a game isn't their taste or its qualities that others like escape them, it doesn't mean it's bad and deosn't deserve the love it's been given by millions of players for decades (that in itself should be a hint that there's something here even if they don't see/feel it)

'Everything popular gets hate' is nowhere more true than on the internet, and really, to deserve that much, the criticisms must be practically irrefutable (severe unavoidable game-breaking flaw that entirely ruins a game) and not influenced (matters of obviously personal taste and preference).
Look, I don't like Castelvania and MegaMan games, don't like the gameplay and progression, not even the graphics and ambiance. But would I be any objective criticizing those aspects and most praised titles in the franchises. No, absolutely fucking not, it's not difficult to admit they're not my type, not my taste period, I don't go on rants saying "worst gameplay, musics etc", that would be dickish af. Final word: it's important to put things into context.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:04 pm 


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Quote:
Secret of Mana was originally planned to be a launch title for the SNES-CD add-on.[27][28] After the contract between Nintendo and Sony to produce the add-on failed, and Sony repurposed its work on the SNES-CD into the competing PlayStation console, Square adapted the game for the SNES cartridge format. The game had to be altered to fit the storage space of a SNES game cartridge, which is much smaller than that of a CD-ROM.[29] The developers initially resisted continuing the project without the CD add-on, believing that too much of the game would have to be cut, but they were overruled by company management. As a result of the hardware change, several features had to be cut from the game, and some completed work needed to be redone.[24][28] One of the most significant changes was the removal of the option to take multiple routes through the game that led to several possible endings, in contrast to the linear journey in the final product.[7] The plot that remained was different than the original conception, and Tanaka has said that the original story had a much darker tone.[24] Ishii has estimated that up to forty percent of the planned game was dropped to meet the space limitations, and critics have suggested that the hardware change led to technical problems when too much happens at once in the game.[24][30] In 2006, Level magazine claimed that Secret of Mana's rocky development was Square's main inspiration to move their games, such as the Final Fantasy series, from Nintendo consoles to Sony consoles in 1996.[24]

The English translation for Secret of Mana was completed in only 30 days, mere weeks after the Japanese release,[27] and the North American localization was initially advertised as Final Fantasy Adventure 2.[31] Critics have suggested that the translation was done hastily so that the game could be released in North America for the 1993 holiday season.[29] According to translator Ted Woolsey, a large portion of the game's script was cut out in the English localization due to space limitations.[27][32] To display text on the main gameplay screen, the English translation uses a fixed-width font, which limits the amount of space available to display text. Woolsey was unhappy that he had to trim conversations to their bare essentials and that he had so little time for translation, commenting that it "nearly killed me".[33] The script was difficult to translate as it was presented to Woolsey in disordered groups of text, like "shuffling a novel".[32] Other localizations were done in German and French. The Japanese release only named the three protagonists in the manual,[34] while Western versions omitted the characters' names until the enhanced port on the iOS.[35][36]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_of_Mana

Oof, I wasn't aware the development of SoM was a mess. Probably explains why the plot pacing feels rushed. Didn't realize Ted Woolsey of Final Fantasy fame did the localization; it explains a lot that he wasn't happy with how much the writing had to be cut and mangled, not counting how much the game had to be trimmed down without the CD add-on.

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Look, I don't like Castelvania and MegaMan games, don't like the gameplay and progression, not even the graphics and ambiance.


There's multiple CV and MegaMan games that spread across a slew of consoles with various graphical styles and fairly significant gameplay differences from one entry to the next. Super Castlevania IV's far more forgiving movement and 8 way attacking for instance makes it feel radically different from other 'stiffer' entries. It seems rather overbroad to just declare you hate both series unless you just generally don't like platformers, which is fair, not everyone's into them. Their 'ambiance' is about the only thing that generally tries to be similar from one game to the next.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:36 pm 


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Oh fuck it now. I know you when you're in that 'Karen mode', it's fucking useless talking. I was posting something for FinalBaton, I should have predicted what would follow and not catch your bait. :arrow:
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:47 pm 


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Did you ever play or enjoy Legend of Mana, Xyga? I tried to get into that game 3 separate times but I never felt it click. The crafting was beyond convoluted (a Square staple from that era? from not FF games maybe) and the lack of plot somewhat dimmed my appreciation of some of the most gorgeous 2D visuals in a game.

I'll admit I am miffed that it wasn't included in the Collection of Mana - seems like there is no reason not to have it so people can actually play more than your typical Nintendo nostalgia bait :wink:
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:07 pm 


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Yeah that one didn't click with me either. Anyway I'm done talking about those games because I know it'll only attract more shit.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:48 pm 


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I got bored of Legend of Mana after trying "Nightmare mode", which had the same brain dead AI as other modes and was tedious to play.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:47 pm 


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clunky menus for buying and selling, and armour being better if it's more expensive were pretty much genre average back then.


Witches castle has a variation on the 'outside theme'. So it is a different track, it actually seems like a progression.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:46 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
I wholeheartedly recommend Goal! Goal! Goal! for this purpose.


Noted. 8)
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:03 am 


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I'm still playing Slay the Spire. Got my first clear on Ascension 20 - didn't go on to fight the Heart but I'm feeling pretty pleased with myself for now. Two more characters to go, then I'll think about chasing the TLB.

There's a Sailor Moon mod for the game which I'm curious about. Could be fun for a run or two.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:53 am 


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Xyga wrote:
Not for you. I see similar criticisms on the net from the people who don't like that game, but most of what they don't like about it didn't annoy the people who do enjoy it, (...)

I don't think this needs to be prefaced for every opinion about video games - it's a given. BKroo had one experience with the game, and wanted to share his take because it was different from the general consensus. Even if I don't agree with him, I think his opinion has merit, and is interesting to read.

Quote:
'Everything popular gets hate' is nowhere more true than on the internet

This might just be me, but I think it's way more interesting to read criticism of popular things, or praise for stuff that's otherwise universally panned, compared to people who are just joining the choir.

And to me, the more popular a game is, the more "fair game" it is to nitpick about stuff it doesn't do well. I don't care about how poor the collision detection is in Link: Faces of Evil, because it's a given. But when a great shmup classic like Salamander has those issues, it's worth discussing.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:44 am 


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No. It goes beyond honest criticism when it's personal taste and preference-heavy made opinion turned into hateful rants that tons of people copy-paste on the internet and it inflates because the bubble-system privileges that kind of contents.
The internet if full of "I will shit on everything you love" people who manage to murder things that objectively don't deserve such harsh treatment.
It's fucking easy to take anything that's been praised and successful and destroy it, haven't we seen the same here for years ? all the most famous shmups we play have been thoroughly shat and vomited on at more than one point, do you think it's rational to go that far concerning those ? or something is wrong because it's the fucking internet and people just like to blow things out of proportion for personal satisfaction ? No, really, that attitude easily prevails and I don't call it 'criticism'.

And there's no 'choir', or rather if someone thinks himself a good critic while destroying a piece that's received tons of love for ages, or invertedly praise one that's hated and claim it's a masterpiece, then there's extremely high chances there's something the majority has seen but he's fucking missed. Plus a damn part of pretentious neckbeardism from people who are unable to take a step back to get a broader view, it's fucking internet-trendy to be like that, like is going into praising to the sky the most obscure stuff creating a badwagon for people who need influencers to think in their stead to hop on...wait, isn't that ironically 'joining the choir', niche-attitude style ? people follow the most radical views and that process shapes the next truth for the majority, harming pieces to degrees that aren't deserved, I see that as culturally destructive.
Specifically on niche forums (welp, even on the more mainstream now) there's also as I hinted earlier, quite a number of people hell bent on classifying games into those that are a worthy math-and-reaction challenges by their own standards, like that's the only thing that defines video games, and throw to the bin all those they judge aren't or not enough. And that radicalism sure doesn't help people being objective.

Like I said I have popular games that I don't like too, yet I know it's almost always because of my personal preferences and taste, and I'm very well able to understand why so many other people do love them, whether in the past or present putting things into time context too which is important. Because of that I don't play what I don't like and don't let my guts dictate me to go on a massacre rant to blow some steam off and encourage people to share some bile, because that'd just be dickish flaming that doesn't do any good.

As I said I won't again go into details with the games that were the topic that brought us here, I've seen it's pointless to try and risky to insist, but they're very good examples of when that internet abusive thrashing and inflating process is in action. No need to tell you nor ask me to say more, just google and browse opinions about those games again, then tell me we're dealing with legit 'criticism' and not cases of people finding anything to justify and feed their own fury and other's. Internet favours trashing, not criticism which rather annoys readers because they don't like nuanced opinions they interpret as attacks.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:27 am 


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You need to get over this whole seeing opinions you disagree with as a personal attack thing.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:27 am 


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Xyga your post was so good, it got me to drag my ass out of bed so I could get on my PC to try and respond properly.

Xyga wrote:
Like I said I have popular games that I don't like too, yet I know it's almost always because of my personal preferences and taste, and I'm very well able to understand why so many other people do love them, Because of that I don't play what I don't like


This is something I've never understood from so many people. There are lots of people that don't seem to know what they like, it's truly bizarre like it is some process that requires witchcraft and sacrificing a goat. I think deep down it's more likely that they know they won't enjoy something or are planning to hate it because it's more fun for them to be negative which leads us to...

Xyga wrote:
and don't let my guts dictate me to go on a massacre rant to blow some steam off and encourage people to share some bile, because that'd just be dickish flaming that doesn't do any good.

As I said I won't again go into details with the games that were the topic that brought us here, I've seen it's pointless to try and risky to insist, but they're very good examples of when that internet abusive thrashing and inflating process is in action. No need to tell you nor ask me to say more, just google and browse opinions about those games again, then tell me we're dealing with legit 'criticism' and not cases of people finding anything to justify and feed their own fury and other's. Internet favours trashing, not criticism which rather annoys readers because they don't like nuanced opinions they interpret as attacks.


You've touched on it a lot already in fact I'd say it is your main point that well it's cool to hate. Even the top comment on that video completely nails the same point. It's internet culture at this point.

Back to my point of knowing what I like and what I don't. I typically do a really good job of knowing if I will or won't like a game, movie etc... Sometimes I will try something anyway like Ass Creed 1 for any number of reasons. Usually it ends up I was right but sometimes I am pleasantly surprised. In the case of AC1 I didn't like it and I also didn't feel compelled to run to the internet and tell everyone that likes it they are WRONG for doing so.

Now for some last thoughts I want to circle back around to this.

Xyga wrote:
whether in the past or present putting things into time context too which is important.


The zeitgeist in which something was made does matter but of course games are being played now. I think it can be important to view old games objectively and not I played this game when I was 10 it's perfect and I'm totally being objective and not biased.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:39 am 


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Steamflogger Boss wrote:
In the case of AC1 I didn't like it and I also didn't feel compelled to run to the internet and tell everyone that likes it they are WRONG for doing so.


Did BKRoo do this at all?


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:42 am 


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Sumez wrote:
Steamflogger Boss wrote:
In the case of AC1 I didn't like it and I also didn't feel compelled to run to the internet and tell everyone that likes it they are WRONG for doing so.


Did BKRoo do this at all?


I'm not addressing him or that situation just speaking in general to Xyga's broader point.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:10 am 


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Xyga wrote:
SoM has no hit detection issues, it's a recent troll meme copypasted online, I see reddit and gamefaqs are full of it which tells a lot.


I don't know anything about that. It's just always felt shitty to me, and I'm honestly surprised that somebody doesn't agree - but I don't have a problem with that at all, I'm happy if the game works for you. Honestly though, if it's true that the entire internet complains about it, it sounds more like we might have a "one ghost driver? hundreds!"-situation here...
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:12 am 


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I've been hearing nothing but good things about Neo Turf Masters. Haven't yet taken the time to get into it. The last gold game I played was Mario Golf on the gameboy 25 years ago...
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:21 am 


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ChurchOfSolipsism wrote:
I've been hearing nothing but good things about Neo Turf Masters. Haven't yet taken the time to get into it. The last gold game I played was Mario Golf on the gameboy 25 years ago...


NTM is the gold standard of sit-on-your-ass-sipping-a-rum-and-Coke-on-Sunday games. The mechanics are sublime, but what really makes the game is the total package, from the goofy but infectious voice samples to the ridiculous dad bod shots of your character after every hole to the insanely good soundtrack, which someone recently made a vaporwave album of that somehow manages to be less vaporwave than the 1996 originals: https://quadratox.bandcamp.com/album/neo-turf-masters-x
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:50 am 


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Neo Turf Masters is brill. It's streamlined to high hell, the courses are cool, and it just looks and sounds great.
The pace is a big selling point, it doesn't faff around at all. An all around amazing presentation.
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eyesoul, an uncomfortably euroshmup-like game I made. :P
Rolling Start arcade racing game forum.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:48 am 


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ChurchOfSolipsism wrote:
I don't know anything about that. It's just always felt shitty to me, and I'm honestly surprised that somebody doesn't agree - but I don't have a problem with that at all, I'm happy if the game works for you. Honestly though, if it's true that the entire internet complains about it, it sounds more like we might have a "one ghost driver? hundreds!"-situation here...

Nope, you've missed the point I've made about that in this thread entirely, sorry but I won't start over.
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