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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:05 pm 


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BulletMagnet wrote:
r definitely a marked improvement over the first, though not enough that I'm failing to stop wondering where the near-unanimous praise for the thing came from, it feels to me like a "more deserving" cult hit than the original, but still very much a cult hit.


I'm also feeling the Automata meh. It's a good game, no doubt about it, but I think it's just another case of me having unrealistically high expectations due to hype. The STG-inspired bits are neat but it's just not holding my interest for extended sessions. Also the story isn't striking me as that original but maybe that's just because I haven't gotten to the (what I'm guessing are) big twists at the end.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:18 pm 


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I feel the same. I loved Nier so much that Automata had a really hard time living up to the hype. In general though I just found the game kinda unremarkable.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:23 pm 


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How does the game play hold up in Nier? I heard it was janky but with a killer story (the opposite of my experience with Automata: good gameplay, underwhelming story.)


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:40 pm 


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Yeah, janky but enjoyable, it's a bit of a B-game.
Automata is definitely a lot more polished and streamlined, but honestly I don't really think Nier suffers from its more primitive combat.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:11 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
I don't really think Nier suffers from its more primitive combat.

I'd personally disagree on that one - and add that the combat is far from Nier's only major flaw - but I've already made several fairly recent posts on that stuff in here, so no need to go on at length. :)
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:18 am 


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Wizard of Legend - Was in a search for some co-op local gaming options for PC. Unlike Enter the Gungeon, which is a decent room-to-room top down arena style action game (but that forces the second player to play one specific character), Wizard of Legend has fundamentally more unique moves that you can setup prior to entering the dungeon, which both characters capable of being customized, meaning your character build feels much more dynamic from run to run. You setup 4 initial spells to start each run (a melee, a dash, a power spell and a signature spell). The problem is Wizard of Legend is more beat 'em up than arena shmup - the characters take up a lot of screen real-estate and rooms feel cramped. Its fundamentals are also broken in a lot of ways; there's not knock-down on skills akin to a beat 'em up, so spamming your melee skill can be very effective on basic enemies if you corner them. However, if your range is too close or if you get surrounded, crowd control is extremely difficult as you have no knockdown on attacks - enemies recover incredibly fast from stagger, thus making spells that control enemies via freezing (or the charm spell) rather invaluable. Enemies recover blazingly fast from stagger to the point that if you are beside an enemy after using a spell you pretty much have to dash away immediately or risk taking a hit, especially against enemies with near instant attacks. Because this functions more like a beat 'em up, you can't move while attacking, you have to commit to the attacks, so positioning is quite important.

Dodging is kind of awful in this though - there's tons of relics that mess with movement speed, but after a certain distance you break into a faster run. If you're using the faster run activation relic which is normally helpful, it can be very disorienting if you are moving to evade an attack and suddenly hit the run faster speed. Or if you're moving around to wait for an attack opening and you start running, the run adds a recovery delay if you stop moving (unless you cancel the run with an attack). You have an evasive dash, but unless you're in a boss room, the dash can be a major liability. Unlike Monolith, the current king of randomized arena shmups, the dash is an important necessity rather than a convenience, but there are a ridiculous number of bottomless pits everywhere which means a frequent source of damage will be attempting to dash and falling into a hole in the process. There's also a lot of attacks later on that can take up tons of space, so either you have a spell combo ready to speedkill and stagger enemies, or you prepare to try and dodge in a relatively limited space (and try to avoid being knocked into a pit by an attack).

Your powerful spells also run on cooldown timers - you have to manage those cooldowns and dodge around in between them, or rely on your short-ranged basic melee that has no cooldown timer. The cooldowns can be tricky to manage though - expecting to have an attack ready but not having it prepped can really be a liability especially in such cramped fighting conditions where often the doors slam shut when you enter rooms.

Boss fights are extremely fun though - learning their patterns and dealing with them is a lot of fun and the boss rooms are open and don't have nonsense like pits that seriously hinder your evasive options.

I like beat 'em ups and I like a lot of the ideas Wizard of Legend has, but its execution leaves a lot to be desired. It's really frustrating that it feels so difficult for all the wrong reasons.

Gungeon by comparison has much bigger view port (the vertical view range is especially small in Wizard of Legend) and much more effective ranged options, and Monolith feels much better in general, where your small hitbox and professional shmup dodging design ensures things are always difficult but fair. Weapon choice in Monolith is also much more interesting and meaningful than in Gungeon where a lot of the weapons feel very same-y in terms of function.

edit: I think I know why I am so disappointed by Wizard of Legend. I have played something like it except vastly better. The MMO game Lunia is a top down action MMO RPG with air juggles, cooldown on skills, and much better thought out pacing and combat than Wizard of Legend has. Wizard of Legend's map layout, dodging, enemy attack pacing all feel sloppy by comparison.

I also ran into an undodgeable attack against Freya the Ice Queen, who has a giant laser beam attack that fires forward, then splits into two beams that sweep fullscreen around 270 degrees. You're supposed to be close enough to dash behind her when she does it, but she moves around randomly and has a sword attack that doesn't appear to be baitable - I've had her sail past me in the middle of the screen. If she uses the laser beam sweep when she's against a wall, it is effectively undodgeable unless you happen to have the relic that makes your dash invulnerable, or are using the high level chaos-element dash Arcana that does a portal dash, akin to Monolith's Blink, thus making it the only dash worth a damn in the game.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:31 am 


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Wow, Octopath Traveller's post-game "dungeon" is probably the worst pile of bullshit I have ever seen in any JRPG ever!

After spending ages finishing off every sidequest, grinding all my unused characters up to nearly level 70, and making sure I had all the best gear in the game, I went into the game's final area.
For some stupid reason you can neither save your game nor return to the outside once you enter here, but instead of taking you straight to the TLB, you first have to plow through 8 other super easy but relatively long boss battles, and THEN you get to fight what I assume to be just its first form.
You have to pick two teams, using all the characters, which I had already heard. So I decide to start out using the less powerful team, as I'm assuming that start of the fight will be easier.

Then after having spent ages on this form alone, it suddenly decides to start swiping my characters off the battlefield entirely, making the two remaining ones completely unable to handle the fight, and eventually wiping. That's like three hours spent in this post-game area (with no saving) alone, completely wasted. Do I feel like going back there, giving it a new attempt, knowing that I'll probably just throw another three hours down the drain when the same thing happens again? Who the fuck designs a game like this?

And all in all I've spent over 80 hours with the game, leading up to getting to this place, and now I kinda feel like it's a waste. I should have just called it quits after the 8 main paths finished, and moved on to something else.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:38 am 


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Huehuehuehuehuehue.

I laugh as someone who has been there. I got crunched the first time and had to re-assess and go for the best strategy I could think of. But yeah the no save aspect is bullshit and time-wastey. I got pretty upset.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:49 am 


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scrilla4rella wrote:
Also the story isn't striking me as that original but maybe that's just because I haven't gotten to the (what I'm guessing are) big twists at the end.


It's a post-apocalyptic story that gives us absolutely no immediate reason to care that an apocalypse has taken place.

Most good stories in that vein would strive to forge some sort of emotional connection to the world that was or the lives that were lost. Instead, Automata opens up with an army of boring, stoic assholes fighting a war with no stakes against a faceless enemy we don't care about over the death of humans that we never see in a world that's no less pretty or convenient for being ostensibly fucked.

All that would probably be pardonable mind you if the protagonists weren't such boring shitheads. That one was really the finishing straw for me. 2B and 9S are horrible characters.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:08 am 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
scrilla4rella wrote:
Also the story isn't striking me as that original but maybe that's just because I haven't gotten to the (what I'm guessing are) big twists at the end.


It's a post-apocalyptic story that gives us absolutely no immediate reason to care that an apocalypse has taken place.

Most good stories in that vein would strive to forge some sort of emotional connection to the world that was or the lives that were lost. Instead, Automata opens up with an army of boring, stoic assholes fighting a war with no stakes against a faceless enemy we don't care about over the death of humans that we never see in a world that's no less pretty or convenient for being ostensibly fucked.

All that would probably be pardonable mind you if the protagonists weren't such boring shitheads. That one was really the finishing straw for me. 2B and 9S are horrible characters.


2B, or not 2B? That is the question.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:01 am 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
It's a post-apocalyptic story that gives us absolutely no immediate reason to care that an apocalypse has taken place.

Most good stories in that vein would strive to forge some sort of emotional connection to the world that was or the lives that were lost. Instead, Automata opens up with an army of boring, stoic assholes fighting a war with no stakes against a faceless enemy we don't care about over the death of humans that we never see in a world that's no less pretty or convenient for being ostensibly fucked.

All that would probably be pardonable mind you if the protagonists weren't such boring shitheads. That one was really the finishing straw for me. 2B and 9S are horrible characters.


Compare Nier which opens up with a dad wanting to protect his daughter, and a bit of a mystery about what happens between the intro chapter and the main game.
It's simple, to the point and relatable. Daddy Nier is a great main character.

This contrast is the biggest reason, Automata was a bit of a letdown to me.

I also just enjoyed the almost comical way everything just goes to shit in Nier. All the way down to a random sidequest about a man who can't find his dog. You just know you're gonna find it dead somewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:34 pm 


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Just about finished up with my 2nd play through of Wasteland 2. Almost at the point of too much of a good thing, but not quite.

I will play it again before 3 comes out, but I think I am setting my sights on SNK's 40th upon release.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:22 am 


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Sumez wrote:
All the way down to a random sidequest about a man who can't find his dog. You just know you're gonna find it dead somewhere.

As with so many of us, it would appear that Yoko Taro's journey began with the trauma he experienced after being assigned Old Yeller in grade school.

Started the third playthrough of Automata yesterday; if nothing else it appears that subsequent runs of this one change things up more substantially than the original did. As for the mains being less compelling than the OG protagonist, to a degree I can concur (which is kind of weird considering that the latter's entire shtick is basically "I have one single motivation and only know one barbaric way to pursue it"), but at least based on what I've seen so far it could also be argued that that's kind of the point.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:25 pm 


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BulletMagnet wrote:
at least based on what I've seen so far it could also be argued that that's kind of the point.


Yeah, I've heard that one before.

"It's supposed to leave you totally detached towards everything and everyone! It's supposed to be boring!"

All I can say to that is...congrats on how far you've crawled up your own asshole, Taro.

Must've been hard doing it with that mask on.
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RegalSin wrote:
Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

Aeon Zenith - My STG.


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