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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:31 pm 


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Oh I'll give it another chance later for sure. I didn't mean to come down hard on it. It just doesn't leave a nice first impression.

It's still better than Slain :P


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:31 pm 


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Mischief Maker wrote:
Dead Cells' main influence is the original Prince of Persia, all the way down to the protagonist's pantaloons. If you're expecting Dark Souls (which I never promised), of course you're going to be disappointed. It's an influence, sure, but not a very big one.

Aside from increasing your stock of health potions, the between-game upgrades have barely any effect on your survival chances. They just add new weapon types to the random pool, you aren't going to lose because you don't have the oil sword unlocked yet. The runes are essentially keys that open alternate paths through the game's branching path. With skill, you can totally beat Dead Cells on the first try.

Dead Cells is fast, beautiful, and fun. I do not understand why so many people on this forum have been instantly hostile to the game sight-unseen. So the PR people picked the wrong buzzwords, boo hoo.


Dead Cells is great. Haters gonna hate man.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:40 pm 


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Also, the game has absolutely nothing to do with Prince of Persia aside from some really superficial aspects.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:27 am 


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Sumez wrote:
Oh I'll give it another chance later for sure. I didn't mean to come down hard on it. It just doesn't leave a nice first impression.

It's still better than Slain :P


Oh don't, that one still stings.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:02 pm 


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"Dead Cells is a rogue-lite, Castlevania-inspired action-platformer" and they harp on the "souls-like combat" repeatedly. PoP based? Ew. I wouldn't mind playing a game of this description if it was slightly less clunky than the original PoP though.

Gotta try this one out https://www.shopgoodwill.com/Item/60440840
($75 auction for a Namco Gunmen Wars two-player machine)


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:24 am 


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Ed Oscuro wrote:
PoP based? Ew.

As someone who can't stand how old-timey Prince of Persia feels, Dead Cells feels nothing like old-timey Prince of Persia.

Anyway, just finished a go at Black Rock Shooter: The Game for the PSP; basically stopped when all of the remaining post-game missions were the annoying ones. This is one of those titles I'd love to see get a remake someday: it's an RPG-ish game with an action-ish battle system and a lot of rough edges but also a lot of style and a lot of potential, held back by both the hardware and the fact that it was created in response to one of the more ridiculous out-of-nowhere fads of recent years, presumably with a schedule and budget to match. So yeah, I'll never get to see the concept artwork truly done justice or the latent fluidity and intensity of the combat truly realized, but what we did get is interesting, at least, and moreover is willing to commit to the bleak atmosphere it's built on, which was a pleasant surprise.

Next up, another unlikely licensed item: I played the demo for the Fist of the North Star Yakuza offshoot a bit back, and since I have no affinity whatsoever for HnK placed it into the "eh, maybe when the price drops" pile. Well, the price dropped, and I'm enough of a sucker for Yakuza to be writing this. :P Early on I actually rather like the tweaks to the combat system, though I'm most looking forward to making Kenshiro look even more awkward than Kiryu while tackling the goofy side stories and minigames; one thing I didn't like in the demo was the fact that the game tends to throw bigger mobs at you, which makes sense since Kenshiro is supposed to be able to wreck dudes even more effortlessly than Kiryu, but this also makes it harder to keep track of everyone, and I wound up taking more off-camera hits than I would like (which, as with any other functioning human being, would be zero :P). Guess I'll see if I end up sticking with this one...then again, Yakuza itself would up pleasantly surprising me way back when, maybe this one can do the same.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:14 am 


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BulletMagnet wrote:
Ed Oscuro wrote:
PoP based? Ew.

As someone who can't stand how old-timey Prince of Persia feels, Dead Cells feels nothing like old-timey Prince of Persia.


On point as usual, BM.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:01 am 


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Still playing Fight 'n Rage and trying to beat hard. Managed to get the death island without using a continue.

I played a bit of the arcade version of Athena in the SNK collection. Much better programmed than the NES version, but man is that game brutal. Enemies fire at you off screen, follow you up vines, and there is no invincibility on damage.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:47 am 


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Sumez wrote:
Spent an hour or two with Dead Cells the other day. Not enough to get a good impression of the game, but my first impression definitely wasn't overly positive. I speculate that I could probably get into the game after spending some more time with it, but off the bat this just feels like the soulless amalgation of all the checkmarks you expect from any modern indie 2D action game - Kitten would hate it for sure.


it's not quite as bad as i expected based on the buzzwords but playthroughs start very deeply running together after just a few short hours with the game and the amount of cross-playthrough unlocks is completely obscene. after just a few hours i got to the final boss, but basically didn't stand a chance because my loadout was doing such little damage to him i lost via attrition. while the combat is fast & frenetic (and you're heavily rewarded for playing like an utter maniac & just zipping through everything), the procedural generation turns the game into deeply repetitive slop that only spikes when it's checking if you got good enough stuff to attrition pass the dreadful boss fights. disappointing! my first few encounters with the first boss had him as a total roadblock, but after i figured out what to use and how to play early on, he was far, far too easy. such is the nature of these games. i'm sure the last boss is the same, but i am not wasting another minute on this to trudge through it just to get to him.

a lot of loadouts are incredibly broken and the game seems to expect you discover one of them and then repeat it in a cycle each time a tough enemy (or group thereof) shows up. late-game removes the urgency to press forward quickly so there's little incentive to not just stop and wait for recharges before each encounter and early game is easy enough to slice through it quickly becomes hyper repetitive. it's all very standard "roguelike shit doesn't fit in an action game" that every one of these is infected with, but it's probably the least bad of all of them. i was almost convinced this was decent just because of its suggested pacing by the time-locked doors and snappy fights, but the difficulty never hits a good point - it's all either too easy or agonizingly tedious depending on which side of the numbers/cheap combo game you're on.

the dark souls crowd loves to toss the word "doable" at this game and all the playthroughs, but it's frankly much less invested in your skill as a player and much more invested in your time devotion and getting a good enough start to actually have the numbers for late-game.

- - - - - - - - - -

also, sorry for the radio silence for so long! i've been wanting to get my head back on straight before posting again and trying to be more focused and positive on here. but, well, i've just not been playing enough to warrant posting and what i have been playing is just infecting me with the same bitterness. ran through psycho dream (typical riot garbage with typical riot charm, worth playing if despite everything you find yourself affectionate toward stuff like valis - michiko naruke did the soundtrack but god damn it is not her best work) and kishin douji zenki: battle raiden recently, though! trying to get back into the classic stuff i love so much and just shove my modern backlog under a bench for a while.

battle raiden is something you can almost instantaneously tell was made by the hagane people before they got their shit together for both better and worse. there's a serious lethality to the somewhat restrictive moveset and you can make the game look great with a mastery of it, but there's very little pressure to ever use it in an interesting way. enemies are too easy, bosses are too repetitive and down to patterns, and the levels are too meandering. there's a performance ceiling that is higher than what is required, but it's still a bit low to the ground, honestly. i'm very charmed by it, anyway, though! the moveset feels good when you get a hang on it and there's definitely enough meat on the bone to warrant interest to some.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:42 am 


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Sumez wrote:
It also reminds me of the recent discussion about Rogue Legacy, and the claims that the game was based around grinding because it couldn't realistically be completed in your initial playthrough.


Is the jury still out on this? Not everyone's a grooky.

I stopped playing Legacy because I got bored of dying in the first area (and sometimes the second) a million times after already beating the first boss.
My family tree is now obscenely long. Every class other than the tanky ones seem useless to me.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:42 am 


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Blinge wrote:
Sumez wrote:
It also reminds me of the recent discussion about Rogue Legacy, and the claims that the game was based around grinding because it couldn't realistically be completed in your initial playthrough.


Is the jury still out on this? Not everyone's a grooky.

I stopped playing Legacy because I got bored of dying in the first area (and sometimes the second) a million times after already beating the first boss.
My family tree is now obscenely long. Every class other than the tanky ones seem useless to me.


Pretty much sums up my feelings, though it has been a few years since I played it now. It never felt hard as such, just simply that I was far too underpowered for certain sections of the game. Not saying it's not doable from the off, but if that's your intention, surely you're just better off playing something that's actually been designed that way? May wipe my save and start over, het feeling as though I'm missing out!

Well I caved as it was on half-price sale and picked up Binding of Isaac for Switch. I let my PS Plus lapse after Souls 3 and with it access to this, and never re-bought because I was convinced that I'd A/ played enough and B/ realised that it's too RNG based. I was correct about B - some runs are destined for tedium from the off, because if it keeps spewing shitty items out you feel really underpowered from the third floor on, and combat just isn't fun at that point. For actual moment to moment shooting, Gungeon, Tesla vs Lovecraft and Nex Machina are all far better games. As far as having played enough I was massively wrong, despite a large number of sticking points this game is like crack and can easily consume a few hours without me being aware.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:50 am 


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^ i've probably enjoyed binding of isaac more than any other game like it just because of the sheer silliness. completely agree that some plays are just doomed (it's like spinning a slot machine and waiting 5-20 minutes for the result to show), but the plays that come together tend to be entertaining in much the same way succeeding at actual, traditional roguelikes are. each play is almost like its own little emergent story.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:16 am 


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I think that sums up my Binding of Isaac experience well.
Instead of being a tightly designed game, it embraces the fact that it's not, and goes all balls out on the chaos and pure entertainment. It's all about experimenting with the random combinations of weapons you can get. Some times you get insanely OP, and other times you'll get into unfortunate situations that force you to think outside the box to survive.
It's just fun.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:56 am 


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and then you ruin it by trying to get all the check marks with garbo characters like the Keeper or the skelly boi.
Or getting all achievements like I did..
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:35 pm 


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Mischief Maker wrote:
Dead Cells' main influence is the original Prince of Persia, all the way down to the protagonist's pantaloons.

Steamflogger Boss wrote:
BulletMagnet wrote:
Ed Oscuro wrote:
PoP based? Ew.

As someone who can't stand how old-timey Prince of Persia feels, Dead Cells feels nothing like old-timey Prince of Persia.


On point as usual, BM.

whiplash intensifies

Sometime I ought to get the damn thing to judge for myself :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:56 pm 


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As someone who absolutely loves Prince of Persia 1, Dead Cells is feels nothing like old-timey Prince of Persia. :P

I would hate it if it did, though.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:40 pm 


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Okay, first of all let me clarify that the designers of Dead Cells cited Prince of Persia as their biggest influence, hence the character design. I was saying that in response to comments about the game not living up to people's expectations that it was patterned after Dark Souls. I stand by my original statement that the game plays like a cross between Castlevania and Rayman.

kitten wrote:
after just a few hours i got to the final boss, but basically didn't stand a chance because my loadout was doing such little damage to him i lost via attrition.

[...]

a lot of loadouts are incredibly broken and the game seems to expect you discover one of them and then repeat it in a cycle each time a tough enemy (or group thereof) shows up.


Two things: One, you need to have a coherent build strategy in mind when pumping your attributes or your damage will fall behind. Two, this game requires you to constantly be trading up weapons and skills for higher-level versions in the lategame or your damage will REALLY fall behind. So even if you come across a loadout that you think synergizes well, the game forces you to constantly be trying something new.

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while the combat is fast & frenetic (and you're heavily rewarded for playing like an utter maniac & just zipping through everything), the procedural generation turns the game into deeply repetitive slop that only spikes when it's checking if you got good enough stuff to attrition pass the dreadful boss fights. disappointing! my first few encounters with the first boss had him as a total roadblock, but after i figured out what to use and how to play early on, he was far, far too easy. such is the nature of these games. i'm sure the last boss is the same, but i am not wasting another minute on this to trudge through it just to get to him.


I'm not sure how to address "dreadful" when speaking about the boss fights, especially seeing as you figured out "git gud" is the solution. But the first boss has clearly telegraphed patterns and a variety of attacks that prevent you from using a "one move fits all" approach (you can't dodge roll through his flame wave). And you said you were able to get to the last boss without tons of between-run grinding complete, so that would indicate that skill actually is a factor in this game.

Quote:
it's all very standard "roguelike shit doesn't fit in an action game" that every one of these is infected with, but it's probably the least bad of all of them. i was almost convinced this was decent just because of its suggested pacing by the time-locked doors and snappy fights, but the difficulty never hits a good point - it's all either too easy or agonizingly tedious depending on which side of the numbers/cheap combo game you're on.


You mentioned something that I think is worth emphasizing for people on the fence. Once you have an early level mastered (and have collected all the weapon blueprint drops from all the enemy types) you are totally encouraged to start speed running through them. Later levels have time-locked doors with massive rewards inside so you won't fall behind in your stat growth by speeding along to whatever challenge you're currently learning.

I said Dead Cells is the game Rogue Legacy should have been. If you hate action roguelikes period, you're going to hate Dead Cells period because it's an action roguelike. But if you're saying Dead Cells is the best so far of this sub-genre of games that you hate, I guess... we're actually in total agreement!
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:13 pm 


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Haha, counted my descendants.
I'm on the 29th generation. and I've yet to meet the forest boss.

I'm mad now, gonna get back in and finish it. Though I just took big damage from fireball spam from offscreen from an enemy I didn't know was there. I don't like that.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:06 am 


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Holy crap, I thought there were things in the Switch version of Isaac I didn't remember from PS4... realised I'm on the upgraded version and the items screen it stupidly huge. Think I've found maybe a sixth of the contect after a dozen hours... I can see where my Christmas is headed,
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:27 am 


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Yeah they keep adding more shit. New achievements rope me back in.
This is all because i once raced a friend to get all the original chevs in Rebirth, and call myself the IsaacMaster. :|

In other news, woe is me Ed!

Spoiler: show
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Look at how long I have to go for athletics!
I'm just running around the open world punching things now.
I've cleared every quest possible to clear in the game except museum of oddities because fuck waiting for random drops.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:06 pm 


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Sumez wrote:

It's still better than Slain :P


This was one I was interested in upon first glance, but the reviews put me off.

I am cautiously optimistic for Valfaris.

Here it is if you haven't seen it yet:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=valfaris
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:51 pm 


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Bad North.

A delightful little coffeebreak game that plays like a cross between "Into the Breach" and "Myth: the Fallen Lords."
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:11 am 


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I've had my eye on Into the Breach on Switch for a while now. Recommended?
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:41 pm 


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Marc wrote:
I've had my eye on Into the Breach on Switch for a while now. Recommended?


I would provided you understand that this is not FTL and not Battletech.

This is a puzzle game. Each squad type has it's different strategies, but above easy difficulty you won't do enough direct damage with your weapons, you need to move enemies around into environmental hazards and each other's attack ranges to win. I'd almost compare it to Sobokan.

If you're cool with that, it's a very good game.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:26 am 


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Quote:
This was one I was interested in upon first glance, but the reviews put me off.


I enjoyed it... but I didn't play it till it was fully patched and finalized.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:35 pm 


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Marc wrote:
Blinge wrote:
Sumez wrote:
It also reminds me of the recent discussion about Rogue Legacy, and the claims that the game was based around grinding because it couldn't realistically be completed in your initial playthrough.


Is the jury still out on this? Not everyone's a grooky.


Pretty much sums up my feelings, though it has been a few years since I played it now. It never felt hard as such, just simply that I was far too underpowered for certain sections of the game. Not saying it's not doable from the off, but if that's your intention, surely you're just better off playing something that's actually been designed that way? May wipe my save and start over, het feeling as though I'm missing out!


MischiefMakers original claim was that the game was that you'd be "plinking bosses to death for an hour" if you didn't grind...which is close to objectively false. The games scaling basically makes most things a glass cannon, so even with minimal damage upgrades boss fights aren't going to be taking *that* long.

The main issue is if you go in areas that your intended to tackle last, you'll be dying in one hit and won't have things like double jump that makes dodging easier. There's also one particular late boss who's close to being a wall for level 0 characters, just due to the way his gimmick works.

I would recommend giving it another shot, yeah. It's still the best game of this type in my opinion and one of my favorites.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:37 pm 


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For once I'm with Squire on this. I still have yet to delve deeper into Dead Cells, but Rogue Legacy feels way better realised to me.
IMO, the best aspect of the game isn't the roguelike elements (they were rarely are), but the solidly designed enemies and the way their patterns scale, as well as how different permutations compliment eachother, compared to your own moveset.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:43 pm 


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Yah the randomness there is really basic (most rooms seem to be constructed from set pieces that are remixed), that's just there to keep you on your toes and thinking/reacting throughout. It keeps exploration tense and adds some risk/reward to what rooms you try to forge on ahead through.

>For once

I don't think we disagree that much, heh
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:29 am 


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started HITMAN 2 last night
so far so good, better then first one (2016) in every way


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:20 am 


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Why is almost every shot power-up in Isaac so shitty? I've lost count of the number of runs that I've dropped due to picking up shots that hang in mid air, or point-and-click shots, or shots that spazz off at weird angles, it's stupid frustrating. I'm still playing too much of it though.
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