What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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Marc
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Marc »

Sumez wrote:You didn't like Rogue Legacy?
I went off it, because its 0retty much impossible to clear without grinding.
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Mischief Maker
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Mischief Maker »

Sumez wrote:You didn't like Rogue Legacy?
It had an original gimmick, but I think the actual gameplay lacked and other games have since come along that did the gimmick better.

Dead Cells is faster, smoother, with better controls, and you totally could beat the game on your first try without any unlocks, and not in a "1 HP plink the final boss for 30 minutes and eventually win" Rogue Legacy kinda way.
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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Squire Grooktook
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Marc wrote:
Sumez wrote:You didn't like Rogue Legacy?
I went off it, because its 0retty much impossible to clear without grinding.
It's pretty doable and fun, actually!

Image

My personal best run ^_^

I loved Rogue Legacy. Loved the smooth "SOTN with a walk speed upgrade" floaty but tight handling. Loved the rooms and layouts it gave you. Loved the boss fights. One of my favorite indies.

Will have to look into Dead Cells, if it improves on the formula. But personally it'd have to be damn good to replace Rogue Legacy for me.
RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Blinge »

damn man i should play that
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Sumez »

Agreed with Squire, I loved Rogue Legacy, and don't see any of the shortcomings you guys are pointing out.

I think the "grinding" is really well balanced - first of all, there is only so much you can do with it, and the game will always require some amount of skill, however it does allow for upgrading your "descendants" to make the game more manageable, meanwhile experts can go for clearing the game with as few descendents as possible (as you see on Squire's screenshot). Most of the "essential" upgrades can be purchased after one of two runs through the castle if you are good enough. I never felt like I managed to beat a boss because I grinded for a specific upgrade, as opposed to experience with how to approach it.

What I really enjoy the most about the game is how it distills the action oriented Castlevania gameplay to its most basic parts, utilizing a random dungeon, but prefabricated rooms, where the entire challenge is always made up of a combination of the room's layout and a bunch of faimilar enemy patterns. I really enjoy how each enemy can be breaken up in very simple patterns that are all easily handled, but provide a new challenge based on the constellation they show up in, and the game does a great job at "upgrading" various enemy types, making those patterns more complex to dodge. It is the foundation every single solid action game is built on, and Rogue Legacy does it by the book. It is quite a stretch to compare, but it's exactly the same thing I love about Rainbow Islands.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Marc »

Might go back and give it another go, I did enjoy what I played of it, but I found the stock character a bit underpowered. I knew as soon as I posted that previous comment that someone one here would reply with a quick clear :D
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Sumez wrote:Agreed with Squire, I loved Rogue Legacy, and don't see any of the shortcomings you guys are pointing out.

I think the "grinding" is really well balanced - first of all, there is only so much you can do with it, and the game will always require some amount of skill, however it does allow for upgrading your "descendants" to make the game more manageable, meanwhile experts can go for clearing the game with as few descendents as possible (as you see on Squire's screenshot). Most of the "essential" upgrades can be purchased after one of two runs through the castle if you are good enough. I never felt like I managed to beat a boss because I grinded for a specific upgrade, as opposed to experience with how to approach it.

What I really enjoy the most about the game is how it distills the action oriented Castlevania gameplay to its most basic parts, utilizing a random dungeon, but prefabricated rooms, where the entire challenge is always made up of a combination of the room's layout and a bunch of faimilar enemy patterns. I really enjoy how each enemy can be breaken up in very simple patterns that are all easily handled, but provide a new challenge based on the constellation they show up in, and the game does a great job at "upgrading" various enemy types, making those patterns more complex to dodge. It is the foundation every single solid action game is built on, and Rogue Legacy does it by the book. It is quite a stretch to compare, but it's exactly the same thing I love about Rainbow Islands.
Agreed on all counts, and I also want to add that on a low death run I feel it more or less captures the "survival" element of an rpg. Remembering the rooms that have health ups, and carefully conserving them for when you need them, etc.

Also MischiefMakers comment about "plinking bosses for an hour" is not true.

The thing to remember is that the longer you go without dying, the more you power up on your next death. So if you clear an entire castle area without a death, that's the equivalent of hundreds of deaths worth of upgrades. The game is actually very well balanced for say, one death per area, and scales excellently for an arcade-y run (if you don't mind the inevitable Gradius V-esque length).

Hell, I don't think it would be too bad for deathless. Everything is kinda glass cannon in this game and I don't see most bosses living for an hour no matter what you bring to them.
RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Chaos Phoenixma »

people have savescummed to beat it with Sir Lee, but I'm not aware of any true deathless runs. It's possible there are some, but I wouldn't be aware of vids of it.

I never pushed hard for a low death count myself. I got 13 deaths to get the Thanatophobia trophy on PSN for under 15 deaths, then didn't try to improve it.

IIRC, I could only do the first boss with the first character, but could get close on one other but not actually pull it off.


Currently doing NG+ in Persona 5, finished up the 4th palace again. Waiting to get late into the playthrough to do all my fusing, leveling, and stuff needed for the platinum trophy.

Also reading through Clannad as well. Finished baseball route and Misae route and am working on Tomoyo route. Following a guide to make sure I do the routes in the right order and actually get the routes. Plan to read through the side stories and Tomoyo After after I finish this.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Squire Grooktook »

I think the wall for a deathless run is the slime boss (area 4 / dungeons)

Mainly because - once he splits down to his smallest chunks - the fight becomes absurdly chaotic. If that lasts for more than a couple seconds, you are going to need incredible random dodging skills to avoid instantly dying. Hence, my usual gameplan is to have enough attack power to take down the smallest globules instantly by the time I reach him on third child.

I could feasibly see a deathless run for everything else in the game, but that's really the one part where stats matter because they protect you from an utterly merciless pattern.
RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Vanguard »

I'll never forgive Rogue Legacy for its role in turning roguelites into abominations and for destroying the meaning of the term "roguelike." And it's the equivalent of an arcade game deliberately made impossible to one credit clear! Without house rules it's barely even a game!
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Sumez »

Rogue Legacy isn't an arcade game.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Marc »

Seem to have a bit of a hole in my gaming education with the GBA, which is strange as I owned one for quite some time (picked up on the same day that I went to the ‘Cube midnight launch in fact) and had a fair loose pile of carts. Think it was a combination of spending a lot of that period addled, and not being particularly impressed with the screen on the machine. Anyhow, I installed RetroArch on the SNES mini to try and play some of the stuff I’d previously enjoyed or missed.

F-Zero Maximum Impact is pretty good. Playing on Expert, it’s probably an even match for the SNES version – although the CPU opposition is a bit more vicious, the effect of collisions has been neutered a little. It’s not quite as fast and smooth – frame rate is OK but the actual mode 7 effect seems a bit jerkier, but it’s close enough that I managed to clear the four cups. It’s hard to judge objectively as I’ve played the original so much it’s almost part of my DNA, but it feels more of an expansion kit than true sequel. Still great stuff though.

I briefly tried out GP Legends and Climax, and the series gets better with every title except for one important area – there’s almost no challenge at all in the sequels. I barely broke a sweat on GP, and didn’t see another vehicle for the entirety of the first cup on Climax. I didn’t dive into Master on either (if it exists?), but it’s a bit disappointing after MI. Shame, and they both feel ultra-smooth, and Climax in particular looks gorgeous.

FUCK Super Ghouls n Ghosts. Fuck that game right up its ass. Not played the SNES version properly in quite some time, once I got back into the swing of things I was OK up until ST4, which is both annoying yet slightly boring in equal measure. Thought I’d give the GBA port a spin and holy crap, this is the gaming equivalent of sticking pins into your eyeballs for fun. Blown up on the big screen it looks gorgeous, even nicer than the SNES in many ways, but oh god does it hurt to play. I mean the SNES can be random enough at times – at any given time on the first stage you can make what looks like a safe leap, only to have a coffins spawn under your feet AND behind you, effectively giving you nowhere to escape to – but with the reduced visibility it’s doubly painful. Yet, in ST2, I just ran like a motherfucker, and barely saw a ghost for the first half of the stage. My ideal version would see the Arrange mode patched into the SNES game, seems a shame to let it die with the GBA. I do enjoy the game in small doses, but it’s a series that got a little worse with each iteration IMO.

Last session was Double Dragon Advance… HELL YES. THIS, is how I like my brawlers. No double digit combos that do chip damage with every hit and make my burly pummelling feel like fly-swatting. Two punches to the face, a hair grab followed by a knee bash to drop ‘em, then a stomp onto the chest to finish the job. Still feels like classic DD, just more rounded and balanced, with less cheese. Another game that really deserved a wider release, it’s a shame the AC version is constantly ported while this gets passed over.

Briefly tried out Drill Dozer which seems fun if it wasn't for the central mechanic - constantly stopping to drill is annoying as hell.

Sadly my plans for tackling CV HoD and AoS are kaput because RetroArch refuses to save my states. Gutted.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Sumez »

SNES SGnG has barely any randomness past the first half of the first stage.
Marc wrote: Briefly tried out Drill Dozer which seems fun if it wasn't for the central mechanic - constantly stopping to drill is annoying as hell.
Yes! That game is a slog.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Vanguard »

Sumez wrote:Rogue Legacy isn't an arcade game.
That's no excuse for its rewards-for-failure design.

There's nothing wrong with an honest, easy game, but Rogue Legacy is an easy game that uses forced grinding to pretend to be hard. Let's play Symphony of the Night except Alucard doesn't get any of his level ups until he dies. It's still easy but now you're forced to be stuck tickling enemies and/or dying regardless of your skill level. This is in every way a downgrade from the real SotN. It's a bad system designed to mimic the feeling of mastery without learning anything. The cost is that you can no longer enjoy some of the benefits of mastery such as no-missing the game or brutally tearing through your enemies right out the gate.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Sumez »

Honestly, I think it is pretty fucking cool design to reward the player with a tougher experience for managing to stay alive, and not giving upgrades until after they fail, as a consolation price. SotN is in fact a much worse designed game when it comes to these things, due to its horrible difficulty scaling.

Sure there's no potential no-miss of the game (without some sort of cheesy manipulation or a ton of luck anyway), but honestly you could say that about a lot of great games. Again, it's not an arcade game.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Vanguard »

Sumez wrote:Honestly, I think it is pretty fucking cool design to reward the player with a tougher experience for managing to stay alive, and not giving upgrades until after they fail, as a consolation price. SotN is in fact a much worse designed game when it comes to these things, due to its horrible difficulty scaling.

Sure there's no potential no-miss of the game (without some sort of cheesy manipulation or a ton of luck anyway), but honestly you could say that about a lot of great games. Again, it's not an arcade game.
The boss loses 1% HP with each hit, what a wonderful reward.

I, too, like the idea of a game that presents its most difficult content only to the best players. Arcade games have done it much better with rank systems and loops and such. Spelunky, Rogue Legacy's closest memetic ancestor, also did it much better with hell and the city of gold. The developers of Rogue Legacy chose to ignore this. They instead opted to make a game about dodging hazards and killing enemies, within a context that essentially ignores how well you do those things. Too good? We'll kill you anyway. Too bad? You'll win anyway.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by FRO »

Just finished the main story campaign of Super Mario Odyssey last night, and thinking I'll probably keep playing for a bit. Also kinda sorta working on MediEvil Resurrection on PSP.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Vanguard wrote:They instead opted to make a game about dodging hazards and killing enemies, within a context that essentially ignores how well you do those things.
Not quite. You are rewarded for doing well.
Squire Grooktook wrote: The thing to remember is that the longer you go without dying, the more you power up on your next death. So if you clear an entire castle area without a death, that's the equivalent of hundreds of deaths worth of upgrades. The game is actually very well balanced for say, one death per area, and scales excellently for an arcade-y run (if you don't mind the inevitable Gradius V-esque length).
Low deaths means shaving tens of hours off your clear time, because lengthy periods of survival can send your power level through the roof like a run away train.

Philosophy aside, the game is just fun as fuck to speedrun / low death run (the two are the same, due to the system). So I can't really care about hyper theoretical stuff like "a no death run is nearly impossible". I don't mind that in Garegga and it's not a problem for me here.
RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Mischief Maker »

Man, I did not expect to kick such a hornet's nest in this thread.

Dead Cells controls like a cross between Castlevania and Rayman and it's so much more fun to breeze through Dead Cells for me than the movement system in Rogue Legacy.

Plus Dead Cells is much, much prettier.
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Sumez »

I was trying to think of a respected arcade game where a no-miss is practically impossible, and somehow Garegga eluded me...
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by BulletMagnet »

Sumez wrote:I was trying to think of a respected arcade game where a no-miss is practically impossible, and somehow Garegga eluded me...
It can be done, however.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by soprano1 »

Saints Row IV Game of the Century Edition (GOG version)
Welp, that intro with the nuclear missile and Aerosmith's "I Don't Want to Miss a Thing" made me laugh all over the place. :lol:
I think I'll enjoy this, I played 2 last year and it was funny too. Gameplay seems like an improved GTA San Andreas.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Udderdude »

http://store.steampowered.com/app/64388 ... y_Sisters/

Pretty fun breakout style game with some good pixel art, and it's absurdly cheap at the moment.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Mischief Maker »

soprano1 wrote:Saints Row IV Game of the Century Edition (GOG version)
Welp, that intro with the nuclear missile and Aerosmith's "I Don't Want to Miss a Thing" made me laugh all over the place. :lol:
I think I'll enjoy this, I played 2 last year and it was funny too. Gameplay seems like an improved GTA San Andreas.
Wait, did you skip 3? Because that's the best title in the series.
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by soprano1 »

Mischief Maker wrote:
soprano1 wrote:Saints Row IV Game of the Century Edition (GOG version)
Welp, that intro with the nuclear missile and Aerosmith's "I Don't Want to Miss a Thing" made me laugh all over the place. :lol:
I think I'll enjoy this, I played 2 last year and it was funny too. Gameplay seems like an improved GTA San Andreas.
Wait, did you skip 3? Because that's the best title in the series.
Well, I play what I can get...
ChurchOfSolipsism wrote:I'll make sure I'll download it illegally one day...
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by BrianC »

I forgot that I got one of them for free. I think it was 2.

edit: It was Saints Row 2 on GoG.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Steamflogger Boss »

3 is definitely worth playing (provided you like the series) and dirt cheap.
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Mischief Maker »

soprano1 wrote:
Mischief Maker wrote:
soprano1 wrote:Saints Row IV Game of the Century Edition (GOG version)
Welp, that intro with the nuclear missile and Aerosmith's "I Don't Want to Miss a Thing" made me laugh all over the place. :lol:
I think I'll enjoy this, I played 2 last year and it was funny too. Gameplay seems like an improved GTA San Andreas.
Wait, did you skip 3? Because that's the best title in the series.
Well, I play what I can get...
Oh, it was one of those random hat dealies? Because 3 is less than $4 in the current sale and 4 kinda ruins 3 because it gets you used to having matrix powers (while fighting massively less interesting enemies).

I know it's not a popular opinion, but I prefer Gat Outta Hell to 4. Steelport was designed for ground-level gameplay and there's barely any places to really get nuts with the flight mechanics in 4. New Hades, on the other hand, is a vertically-oriented map full of tunnels and other barnstorming obstacles that takes full advantage of GoH's superior flight mechanics. It's really more a 3rd person platformer than a GTA clone. Though I readily admit that GoH is a half-finished game. I wish someone would mod ghost coins into that game.
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by soprano1 »

Well, 4 might not be as good as 3, but any game where I have to escape an alien ship with the tech girl telling me to do a barrel roll while Haddaway's "What is Love" is playing on the radio just makes me smile. :D
ChurchOfSolipsism wrote:I'll make sure I'll download it illegally one day...
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Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

Post by Vanguard »

I've recently played through Etrian Odyssey 4 and 5.

EO4 makes some interesting changes to the series. Dungeons are shorter, but there are multiple dungeons to partly make up for it. Class design is very good this time around. Everything has a clear role and while the balance isn't perfect, there aren't any losers. Subclassing has been changed so can only train your subclass's skills up to halfway (for example, if your subclass has a skill takes 10 points to max out, you are allowed to invest up to 5 points into it). Presumably this was done to prevent people from certain subbed classes outperforming that class as a primary, like the gladiator supremacy you see in EO3. Personally, I never has had a problem with that. In practice this change means that a subclass's active skills are seldom good enough to use, and you instead choose the sub that gives you the most beneficial passives and buffs. Bushi is the obvious, cookie cutter subclass for most classes.

The ship from 3 has been replaced by an airship. It's a big improvement in many ways, with more complexity, more depth, and more direct interaction with the dungeon gameplay. It also takes up much more time than 3's sea exploration and is far more compulsory. I enjoyed it in the beginning, but had grown very tired of it by the end and was glad to see it gone in 5.

4's difficulty is overall a step down from 3, especially in its random encounters. Bosses and FOEs can still kill you and demand caution and preparation, random encounters are just minor speed bumps. The big exception is the 6th stratum, the Hall of Darkness, which is truly wonderful and features the greatest random encounters I've ever seen in a JRPG. Very dangerous and very creative enemies there, I was disappointed to find that the Hall of Darkness was only 3 floors deep. Much like EO2, there are two different versions of EO4's true last boss. The weakened version is just a normal boss that any team can take down without any fuss. The stronger version is extremely brutal, possibly moreso than the Abyssal God, and will require a very strong team specifically built to bring it down.


Etrian Odyssey 5 is in many ways a return to the series's roots. Subclassing is gone, the sea/air exploration from 3 and 4 are gone, and the damage equations are much more similar to those in EO1 and 2. In the first two EO games, your armor had a big effect on how much damage you took and you generally couldn't get away with letting yours get out of date. This was changed in 3 and 4 so that armor's reduction was very minor, to the extent that you were almost always better off ignoring armor class and using accessories or choosing armor that has useful secondary effects. Anyway, like I said, EO5 is like the first two games where you want to keep your armor up to date.

5's classes are overall good, I don't think they're as strong as 4's ultra-solid lineup, or 3's set of interesting and bizarre classes. Each class has two specializations they can choose between after the second stratum. They all seem to be viable, but it's very limiting compared against the last two games.

There are also different races you can choose between, though I don't think the concept is handled very well. You've got earthruns, humans with high defense and luck and defensive union skills (super moves). Lunarians are elves with high intelligence and tp and union skills that do magic damage or inflict binds. Their binding union skill is very broken. Therians are furries with high strength and agility and union skills that do physical damage. Brounis are hobbits with high wisdom and defensive union skills. One of their union skills is almost a necessity against the true last boss. There really aren't many interesting decisions to be made here. Fighters will want to be earthruns or therians, magic users will want to be lunarians or brounis. Certain events in the dungeon can only be completed by certain races, and gathering skills are tied to race as well. This essentially means you're penalized for excluding any races from your party, and thus you're penalized for building teams that heavily emphasize either physical or magical classes. It just seems to me like races were a mechanic that was intended to expand your party building options but that ended up limiting them instead.

Random encounters in 5 are more interesting and dangerous than the ones in 4, excepting the aforementioned Hall of Darkness which totally outclasses 5's roster. 4 has the reputation of being the easiest game in the main series, but I think 5 is actually easier because - and this might sound a bit strange - the "escape" command in Etrian Odyssey 5 is very overpowered. Even though the enemies are fairly dangerous, even though I'd never played this game before, even though I didn't overlevel, I actually got through the entire main game with no deaths, because every time a fight started to go badly my team was able to run away.

In the postgame the great majority of my deaths were up against the true last boss, which is a pretty nice boss fight. I feel like the Ur Child and the Warped Savior require somewhat specific teams, and expect you to memorize and carry out a very specific plan against them. I think the Abyssal God tolerates and to an extent requires a greater degree of adaptation, thanks to more random behavior and fewer abilities that must be dealt with in extremely specific ways. Anyway, 5's true last boss is even further on the opposite side of the spectrum from the Warped Savior in that you can fight it with very nearly any team, so long as they are a strong team. You need lots of damage, but whether it's burst damage, pressure damage, or whatever else isn't important. Status ailments are effective but not necessary. The closest thing there is to a hard requirement is that it's a good idea to have a brouni because their aegis shield union skill is the only thing that will let you survive the TLB's full burst attack. Even that isn't a necessity, because with damage or conditions you can prevent it from using full burst.

My rankings of the games in the series I've played goes 3 > 4 > 2 = 5
BulletMagnet wrote:It can be done, however.
Interesting that they use the homing options. I'd have thought you'd want to avoid anything that increases rank. Maybe it requires fewer shots to kill and that makes up for it?

Anyway, even if Garegga couldn't be no missed, I'd be willing to be a bit more generous with it than most games because Garegga's lives are a strategic resource meant to be expended. Dying isn't necessarily a mistake or a bad thing. The same could almost be said for Rogue Legacy, except you have infinite lives so there's no strategy or risk there.

Like I said before though, what I really consider terrible about RL isn't so much that it's a roguelite that gets easier and easier until inevitable success, it's that it was a major forefather of many other roguelites that defy everything that makes roguelikes good. Setting that element aside, I'd consider Rogue Legacy an unfortunate case of wasted potential rather than anything truly disastrous.


Edit: I forgot to mention something: Etrian Odyssey 5's English translation is an incredibly obnoxious memefest. Almost a Ready Player One-tier bombardment of references and memes with no regard to whether any of it reads like natural language or fits the setting. I don't play these games for the story, but I still found it very aggravating.
Last edited by Vanguard on Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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