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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:38 pm 


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Neon wrote:
I think you misinterpret me my good man. My dream job is retirement.


to be honest i think this is a very immature attitude to have, it is typical of someone that just hasent found any appealing direction in their life.
dont know what youre doing right now but work doesnt have to be a chore, lots of people (myself for instance) really like their work, its just a matter of finding the right thing, trust me, ive had some of the shittiest employments as well.
and being "on the doll" is no breeze, if you actually manage to make it thru the month with everything paid you can rest assured you wont have a dime left to save (ive done that too).

if you want freedom, go into buisness for yourself, start a company in a field youre skilled or interested, lots of work sure but youre only working for yourself, and if youre successfull you can sell the company, proboably your best bet of retiring in 10 years actually.

also, pacrappa is living the dream (not mine but his), i cant help but feel a little envious of his attitude to life!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:41 pm 



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Last edited by RGC on Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:08 pm 


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sven666 speaks the truth. I just had a meeting with majors last night trying to get them to think about careers. It's not all bad. Money is nice, but so also is creative problem solving and getting along with your co-workers.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:37 pm 


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Quote:
I forget how bonds work but isn't that a government thing? If so do you really want to contribute to anything the federal govt does besides highways and schools? Will your investments be strictly limited to companies that are improving the planet or would you be willing to invest in the vampires so that you too can make a buck off their greed and do your part to perpetuate the problem?


I'll be good dude, I'm not that ruthless...yet.

Did you ever meet Bill Childish in person?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:32 am 


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LOL, no but my buddy that makes pedals went to a BBQ at Steve Turner's house and partied with Billy without even knowing who he was. He then came to my house like three weeks later and I was watching a documentary on him and was shocked that he was so important to me.

So even though I'm not too big on Mudhoney and don't know Turner aside from shaking his hand when we DJ'd the same party, I have requested to tag along to all future BBQs ;)

And Sven, my dream is still being fashioned. I know better what I don't want than what I do so I'm still feeling my way around. It's the purpose that I like. Previous to this I was just a retailer or some sort of employee. Money being the constant inescapable crux of the biscuit. Now I help people and it has brightened just about everything in my life. It doesn't earn me much so I do all sorts of stuff for the money but none of it compromises the way I think about work.

My big questions in life are:

A) Who gives us work?
B) Why do we do it?

I try to make the answer as simple as possible: I give myself work because it makes me happy.

Lastly I was doing some math while walking the dogs and they eat about half Neon's rent in food! WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm moving to Richmond and retiring in ten years!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:54 am 


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Quote:
GaijinPunch wrote:
I don't see anything that could possibly go wrong with that plan!
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=%5EDJI& ... z=m&q=l&c=


Dow Jones? I dun geddit


Here, I will sum up the gaping holes in your plan.

1: Save ~80% of your salary? Hah
2: Inflation
2a: Living off of (that little) interest, is stupid. Assuming you make the 10% average market return each year on $500,000, that's $50k per year. If you live off the entire interest each year, you make the same amount each year into retirement, with no hope of getting any more (w/o working again)
2b: By the time you retire, your $500,000 will be worth noticeably less than your goal of $500,000 when you started. Your $50,000 will be worth way less in terms of a living wage.
3: You're locking yourself into not having any "interruptions" with this plan. Think if you had a kid.
4: You effectually "lose" 10 years of your life to get to retirement.

EDIT
5: If you take out interest made over the year, you now pay a higher tax rate than if you would've left it there for the long term (google capital gains for more info).

Your theory on bonds: Nothing is fool proof. Even if something is a 'safe' investment, it doesn't mean it's a good one. A good investment is something where you can not knowingly make more somewhere else, while not exposing yourself to too much risk. Bonds are usually safe (this is why your portfolio will become more and more bond heavy as you age) but you can still lose money on them.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:04 am 


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Hey you forgot the part where you move to a 3rd world country where the cost of living is liek 300 dollars per year lolololol
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:56 am 


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The inflation thing is not a problem as my wages would increase to go with it, I would think. It's only a problem when you stop working and you're getting the same payout each year, yet goods are getting more expensive.

Quote:
1: Save ~80% of your salary? Hah


Some people do live off like 10-15k/yr. Working a minimum wage job you're not gonna make much more.

Quote:
Think if you had a kid.


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shoe-sama wrote:
Hey you forgot the part where you move to a 3rd world country where the cost of living is liek 300 dollars per year lolololol


I've actually given this serious thought


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:06 am 



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You can do it.. but follow my plan.

- Don't get married. Have full control over what you want and your money.
- Don't have kids.

Those are the two biggies. Sorry, I know they have been mentioned before, but they need to be stressed again.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:12 am 


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If neon has the discipline to do what he says, he's got my respect. He's defined his dream and he's willing to sacrifice a lot to get there. Fuck if it's an immature attitude. Some people play games for a living and call it a career. If they can do that, then I say Neon can define his own career goals.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:28 am 


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Neon wrote:
shoe-sama wrote:
Hey you forgot the part where you move to a 3rd world country where the cost of living is liek 300 dollars per year lolololol


I've actually given this serious thought

Same here.

A few years ago I had the same mindset as Neon. I was 99% sure it was a pipe dream then, as opposed to 100% now.

I'd love to retire as early as possible. Anybody with at least a little bit of passion or creativity should be able to keep themselves plenty busy. I'd rather be a hedonistic slacker than a dull workaholic, but different strokes and all that.

Sometimes I think people who truly enjoy their jobs are just a vocal minority. Some of my jobs have been fulfilling to a certain degree, but I can't even imagine a career that I could enjoy every day for 30+ years.

Right now I'm living pretty well below my means, although my misanthropic hermitry makes it easier for me than it would be for normal people. I really don't want kids (luckily neither does the girlfriend), I have no desire to keep up with the Joneses, I don't want a sports car, I'm fine living in a crummy apartment, etc. I'm making real world money (entry level, anyway) and living on a college kid budget, saving whatever's left over*. And by "college kid budget" I mean having just enough for rent, food, utilities, car maintenance, etc., not that "I'm going to rack up $10k in credit card debt buying shit I think I'm entitled to" budget so many kids seem to have. I'll probably be able to retire earlier than most people my age, but not by more than a few years. Life's expensive. But if I can move from my current job (bleh) to something mildly enjoyable (a feasible goal), I can live with that.

* Well, almost. I bought a new car last year and buy more expensive beer now, but those are the only luxuries I have now that I didn't have a few years ago.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:07 am 


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Having a job that you really like going to in the mornings is a luxury afforded to very few people. Most people are forced to work because they "need" the money to pay for a standard of living that they feel they have to have in order to not feel socially stigmatized. Consumers are great for the economy, but frugality is noble.

Don't forget, Neon, that a lot of people trapped in the race don't want to see someone else managing to step out of it. They'll put you down for being an immature slacker and give several reasons as to why it's no good, just to make themselves feel better about their own situation.

Whatever you choose to do, and however it turns out, your basic idea of saving as much as you can is righteous in my view. And don't let any fool tell you what you should and shouldn't do with your savings.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:18 am 


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Quote:
The inflation thing is not a problem as my wages would increase to go with it, I would think.


How long have you been working? They don't keep up w/ inflation (and more to the point, lifestyle changes) unless you quit your job and get a new one. A painful part of workin.

Quote:
It's only a problem when you stop working and you're getting the same payout each year, yet goods are getting more expensive.


Unless you only plan on living 10 years after you quit, you will have more years of your "salary" losing value than maintaining.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:03 pm 


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Also keep in mind your audience: hardcore gamers are some of the biggest consumers out there. You will get a considerably different response to your ideas in a simple living forum. ;)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:54 pm 


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heh, after fed taxes, state taxes, medicare, property taxes (auto-deducted), insurance, 401k, and some other crap that instantly vanishes from my paycheck, I see about 50% of my paycheck, every 2 weeks.

It's safe to say 30-40% of your paycheck in the US instantly goes to the government if you are in the low or middle income bracket.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:01 pm 


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SAM wrote:
The yield of bond is too low, you won't have so large an income to save up a million with that in 10 years.

You need something something that have a larger yield (12 to 15% p.a.) and bit longer time (15 yrs).


Bonds are pretty safe, but not the way to go if you want to really build up cash. You gotta go with stocks and mutual funds.

Neon: I highly suggest you put money into a 401k. While you typically can't withdraw money without penalty before age 60 (and retiring well before then isn't a very realistic goal), most employers offer a company match (up to a certain percent), plus the money you put in and its earnings are all tax-deferred. You won't have to pay any taxes on it until you withdraw the money.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:42 pm 


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Gambling and selling drugs is always a good source of income, as they are tax free.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:45 am 


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Just to clarify, saving money is a slang term used on this forum for buying cave boards and candy cabs correct?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:49 am 


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That's "investing".
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:55 am 


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True, that would be investing. :lol: guess that means i haven't been saving besides the quarters in the coin droor


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:18 am 


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Using your cab as a moneybox might be the sweetest way of saving money on a day-to-day basis. 8)


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:04 am 


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Underground Hydrogen Car market until the Government shuts your ass down like a bunch of terrorists.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:58 pm 


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stuminator wrote:
Neon: I highly suggest you put money into a 401k. While you typically can't withdraw money without penalty before age 60 (and retiring well before then isn't a very realistic goal), most employers offer a company match (up to a certain percent), plus the money you put in and its earnings are all tax-deferred. You won't have to pay any taxes on it until you withdraw the money.

I still think the idea of buying high growth, low dividend blue chip shares got the same tax-deferred effect (you have to hold on to the shares without selling, that's why it has to be blue chip), but without the early withdrawal penalty (you still need to pay capital gain tax when you sell.).

Alternatively, IIRC you don't need to pay tax on foreign investment unless you are making more than 80k form foreign investment within a year. If that is correct, you could invest in foreign stock market which doesn't got capital gain tax and dividend tax, like Hong Kong.

Recommended Hong Kong's Stock:

0005 HSBC Holding Oversea Shares
(1 US ADR share = 5 HK Oversea Shares)
(Unlike those you bought in the States, this got no dividend tax!!!)

0002 CLP
Hong Kong's Power Station Company, profit (yes, profit) is protected by law.

Chinese companies shares are too costly in terms of P/E right now, so it is not the right time to buy for the moment.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:45 pm 


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stuminator wrote:
you typically can't withdraw money without penalty before age 60

You can take out substantially equal periodic payments before you're 60 without penalty. So you can retire early if your 401k does ridiculously well and you want to retire early at slightly above hobo living conditions (Neon's goal, I presume). You'd be giving up a lot of cash, though, since:
A.) You wouldn't be putting more money in
B.) Your retirement will have to last you decades longer
C.) You miss out on boatloads of compound interest
D.) You'd have to change your portfolio to be more conservative, so you would earn less interest in that sense too

Although I'm not a tax lawyer or a financial analyst, so I could be way off here.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:40 am 


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Quote:
Alternatively, IIRC you don't need to pay tax on foreign investment unless you are making more than 80k form foreign investment within a year.


That is called foreign-earned income, and isn't exactly the same. All of my salary is technically foreign earned income b/c I physically live in a different country. You have to take a thing called a 'physical presence test'. It's a few questions on your tax form. If you can't pass it (which you can't if you don't leave the country for X amount of days a year) then you won't pass. You also have to pay taxes on foreign-earned income in the country the money is domiciled in. It's not just tax-free. By doing so though, you can keep yourself in a smaller tax bracket by paying taxes to two different countries.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:47 am 


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My plan was always finish education, get a reasonable job as a sourcer for UK food industries and move to a LEDC and get paid UK £, I'm actually giving thailand or brazil some serious thought.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:25 am 


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GaijinPunch wrote:
Quote:
Alternatively, IIRC you don't need to pay tax on foreign investment unless you are making more than 80k form foreign investment within a year.


That is called foreign-earned income, and isn't exactly the same. All of my salary is technically foreign earned income b/c I physically live in a different country. You have to take a thing called a 'physical presence test'. It's a few questions on your tax form. If you can't pass it (which you can't if you don't leave the country for X amount of days a year) then you won't pass. You also have to pay taxes on foreign-earned income in the country the money is domiciled in. It's not just tax-free. By doing so though, you can keep yourself in a smaller tax bracket by paying taxes to two different countries.

Oh, that's was what my American friend is talking about. I am not an American, I hold British passport.

Davey wrote:
stuminator wrote:
you typically can't withdraw money without penalty before age 60

You can take out substantially equal periodic payments before you're 60 without penalty. So you can retire early if your 401k does ridiculously well and you want to retire early at slightly above hobo living conditions (Neon's goal, I presume).


Davey wrote:
You'd be giving up a lot of cash, though, since:
A.) You wouldn't be putting more money in
C.) You miss out on boatloads of compound interest

I agree on you on these points.

But for...
Davey wrote:
D.) You'd have to change your portfolio to be more conservative, so you would earn less interest in that sense too

"Conservative" investment fund is very expensive, they got low yield and relatively high (to the yield) management fee.

Normally an investment fund charge you ~1% on entire asset value of your position as management fee each year. At the time you retired, according to the plan you got $500,000 worth of asset, right?

1% of $500,000 is $5,000, that should be enough for you to spend for 3 months!! That's why I insists on directly invest your saving in to blue chip stock and avoid investment funds all together well in the beginning. Think of how much you lost in the process (in term of compound interest) when you building up the fortune.

By then you have retired right, you should have time to do the investment yourself. If you take on a defensive approach (of which you should, since you have to more "conservative"), just only takes you a few days every month.

People use to say to themselves that I know nothing about investment it is more risky to manage the investment myself. Well, there is fool prove way as long as you are not too greedy... S&P500 got a 12% p.a. on average, just keep buying SPY and you are done.

But as I said before, to suit the aim of early retirement, you need a something got a high retention ratio (reinvesting most of its profit), and high rate of growth in profit (So that you enjoy a tax-deferred effect.). Blue chips like this that come into mind are AIG or Manulife or Berkshire Hathaway (B shares).

Brian wrote:
One share of Berkshire would be more than he is spending on rent for the year.

No, Berkshire got A and B share, 1 A share = 30 B shares. B share are not trading at $4,600. You should be able to afford after the bonus season.

Davey wrote:
B.) Your retirement will have to last you decades longer

Yes, assume the inflation is 3% p.a. the interest from bond is 4.5% p.a.

4.5% = true interest rate x 3%

The true interest rate is only 1.46%.

So maintain the purchasing power, you got only $7,300 (assume you have an asset value of $500,000) to spend each year, and you have to reinvest the reminding "earning" into bond to counter inflation.

And that's means you got $608.33 per month.

Early retirement plan with $500,000 don't work? No I do have a way to make it works.

Invest every cents of the $500,000 into stock!! blue chips stock that pay a high dividend (3% to 4.5%) and have a growth rate >= 7%.

Does this thing exists?

Citigroup (NYSE: C) current price $33 dividend $2.16 ($1.512 after tax)

You got a income of 4.58% in dividend after tax. That is $22,900 a year, $1,900 a month for a $500,000 investment.

And the dividend would normal growth in 7% to 10% p.a. You are safe to spend all your dividend. And the growth in dividend should be more than enough to offset the effect of inflation.

The climate of the shock market (bull or bear) got no effect on you, since you are only living on the dividend. You never need to pay capital gain tax, since you are not going to sell the stock for the rest of your life.

BTW, who could get their paycheck raise for 7% to 10% p.a. :)
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 Post subject: Re: Retire in ten years
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:50 am 


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No response? Why suddenly all of you got luck of interest in this topic?

Anyway I assume no one want to argue about how to live forever with just $500,000 (in present day value).

So lets get back to the first problem, acumulate $500,000 (in present day value) within 10 years.

From Neon's original plan, I got the following formula...

Code:
500k*(1.03)^n = 50k(1.015)^(n-1) + 50k(1.015)^(n-2)(1.045)^1 + 50k(1.015)^(n-3)(1.045)^2 + ... + 50k(1.045)^n



Inflation is 3% p.a.
Paycheck increase in 1.5% p.a.
Yield from bond is 4.5% p.a.
Yearly Income put into saving 50k each year.

And the n, Years needed is well 10 years

But as member here already point out that
(1) It hard to save a large part of your paycheck
(2) Normal Job don't pay that much
(3) When you got a large paycheck, income tax would take a large chunk from it.


So let's redo the maths with more realistic figures.

Inflation is 3% p.a.
Paycheck increase in 1.5% p.a.
Yield from bond is 4.5% p.a.
Yearly Income put into saving 15.6k each year (1,300 a month).

Well the plan would takes 29 years then... That's dosen't seem right, right?

If Gwyrgyn Blood's words is to be taken seriously, saving 15.6k each year is the best one could do.
Gwyrgyn Blood wrote:
To give you a pretty decent idea, I make 55k/yr (which I went to college for 4 years for), which translates to about 35k/yr after taxes/health. I pay ONLY 150$ a month in rent because I'm staying with my fiancée's parents. I can STILL only afford to save about 15k/yr, and that's a fucking LOT compared to most people. That also doesn't include car and insurance payments which my fiancée uses more than half of her paycheck to take care of.


So obviousely we need to inclease the yield of the investment.

Let's see what happens with 12% yeild p.a. (as said in my previous post, the aveage return of S&P 500 is 12% p.a.)

Inflation is 3% p.a.
Paycheck increase in 1.5% p.a.
Yield from S&P 500 is 12% p.a.
Yearly Income put into saving 15.6k each year (1,300 a month).

Okay we got 15 years this time.

That's what I means for "having a higher yield and bit longer time".


Okay, at the end, let us see how high a yield do you need to achive the original target of 10 years.

I did the maths, it's 22% p.a., Berkshire Hathaway did around 20% in it's best years, so I don't think that's possible.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:53 am 


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Quote:
"Conservative" investment fund is very expensive, they got low yield and relatively high (to the yield) management fee.


There are ways to picking good funds that are conservative but still perform on par w/ the market. Even w/ shitty market dips, the 4-5 funds I have my money in have managed to yield 10% annually after fees, each year, and only about 20% of it is semi-risky.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:33 am 



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PaCrappa wrote:
It can become a mighty tangled web trying to dodge what you were put here to do in the first place: Work.


edit: just imagine some drunken raving about Marx here, which you may not even have disagreed with, where Durkheim would have been more relevant and provocative.

You can't make a jiu-jitsu-friend out of das kapital, so get some insurance and vote, not necessarily in that order.


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