Oh yes. The country decided they didn't want Maggie 2.0. They obviously need firearms. Of course!Also, the UK might be collapsing, but since I'm not "in country" I really couldn't say. Remind me again how long their last PM lasted, though?
I don't care what they do over there, I'm only talking about the US because I live here and it's what I know. I'm not sure why you keep bringing the UK into this.orange808 wrote:Oh yes. The country decided they didn't want Maggie 2.0. They obviously need firearms. Of course!Also, the UK might be collapsing, but since I'm not "in country" I really couldn't say. Remind me again how long their last PM lasted, though?
Makes perfect sense.
I was thinking more about someone like you, who (very rightly!) despises the thought of lethal violence. There has to be a line at some point where you're willing to actually fight back, and that means offering material support to those perpetrating some of that violence at the very least. I'm not trying to say we're there yet, or even that we'll get there (at least in our lifetimes), but it's worth thinking about when discussing gun control in the US.BulletMagnet wrote:Honestly, all I'm asking them to do is not vote for people who would rather trample democracy than not be in power. Unfortunately, once you've proven yourself willing to do just that it becomes much more difficult, if not impossible, to ever reverse course, since you'll simply no longer be given that option by the people you voted in.Air Master Burst wrote:The real question is what happens when "reasonable people doing something" basically means armed resistance, since all of those other people will be willing collaborators.
I've certainly wondered where exactly my personal "line" is when it comes to this sort of thing, and it's not a pleasant thought experiment to conduct, I can tell you that; the idealist in me wants to believe that being willing to endure injury or death while steadfastly refusing to take up the proverbial sword might make someone on the other side genuinely reconsider what he and his adopted movement are doing, but as I said before as time goes on the budding authoritarians (and their "moderate" enablers) among us seem to become less and less prone to feeling doubt, let alone shame, about anything, and as others have noted, have thus turned the notion of "don't lower yourself to their level" from a strength into a frustratingly exploitable weakness.Air Master Burst wrote:There has to be a line at some point where you're willing to actually fight back, and that means offering material support to those perpetrating some of that violence at the very least.
I beg to differ on what you know. You're trying to move goalposts and shuffle away because you know other people are not living in peril without guns.I'm only talking about the US because I live here and it's what I know
Or roll a tank over a crowd.
I don't understand anything you said after this, but the key difference is that everyone ALREADY HAS the fucking guns here. The two situations aren't comparable. There are a bunch of crazy fucking would-be fascists in my country right now armed to the teeth who would GLEEFULLY murder everyone like me if they thought they could get away with it (and some do it anyway and don't care if they get caught). If you can't understand that then I can't imagine our dialogue will be very productive.orange808 wrote:I beg to differ on what you know. You're trying to move goalposts and shuffle away because you know other people are not living in peril without guns.I'm only talking about the US because I live here and it's what I know
You're projecting. I have no desire to murder anyone. That's how your mind works.Air Master Burst wrote:I don't understand anything you said after this, but the key difference is that everyone ALREADY HAS the fucking guns here. The two situations aren't comparable. There are a bunch of crazy fucking would-be fascists in my country right now armed to the teeth who would GLEEFULLY murder everyone like me if they thought they could get away with it (and some do it anyway and don't care if they get caught). If you can't understand that then I can't imagine our dialogue will be very productive.orange808 wrote:I beg to differ on what you know. You're trying to move goalposts and shuffle away because you know other people are not living in peril without guns.I'm only talking about the US because I live here and it's what I know
Unless you identify as a fascist, I don't see how you could think I was projecting anything on you.orange808 wrote:You're projecting. I have no desire to murder anyone. That's how your mind works.Air Master Burst wrote:
I don't understand anything you said after this, but the key difference is that everyone ALREADY HAS the fucking guns here. The two situations aren't comparable. There are a bunch of crazy fucking would-be fascists in my country right now armed to the teeth who would GLEEFULLY murder everyone like me if they thought they could get away with it (and some do it anyway and don't care if they get caught). If you can't understand that then I can't imagine our dialogue will be very productive.
Oh goodie. An arms race. What could go wrong?Air Master Burst wrote:Unless you identify as a fascist, I don't see how you could think I was projecting anything on you.orange808 wrote:You're projecting. I have no desire to murder anyone. That's how your mind works.Air Master Burst wrote:
I don't understand anything you said after this, but the key difference is that everyone ALREADY HAS the fucking guns here. The two situations aren't comparable. There are a bunch of crazy fucking would-be fascists in my country right now armed to the teeth who would GLEEFULLY murder everyone like me if they thought they could get away with it (and some do it anyway and don't care if they get caught). If you can't understand that then I can't imagine our dialogue will be very productive.
But since you don't seem to fucking get it, here's an example from LAST FUCKING WEEK. As long as these fascists are out here gunning for us queers I'm staying armed.
I'd put more stock in this if the people who own most of the guns in this country weren't so easily convinced by those in power to keep said guns constantly trained on their fellow citizens instead of them; as MM's signature puts it, watch out, Those People want a piece of your cookie!Sima Tuna wrote:Those with power in America are very afraid of gun-owning citizens. Not so much because of the paltry power of those firearms, but because of what they represent. A body of people who can decide "hey, fuck this social contract, we're getting robbed" and violently rebel against it.
Again, I think you underestimate just how many liberals and actual leftists own guns. There are a LOT of us, we're just not as loud and obnoxious about it! The american populace is so heavily armed, any actual attempt at a police state would be a total disaster. They couldn't even handle a bunch of stupid drunk rednecks storming the capitol, you really think they'd have any chance at stamping out a coordinated and determined armed resistance? Shit, a bunch of random angry protestors burned an entire police precinct in my city down a couple years back and the cops had to call in the national guard for help because they suck so bad.BulletMagnet wrote:I'd put more stock in this if the people who own most of the guns in this country weren't so easily convinced by those in power to keep said guns constantly trained on their fellow citizens instead of them
I don't have any particular grounds to dispute your larger point - my issue is with Sima's suggestion that people with guns are somehow predisposed to aim at the right targets - but it does bear repeating that the authorities' response to the January 6th riot was strikingly different than its deployment against, in particular, previous DC-based BLM protests.Air Master Burst wrote:They couldn't even handle a bunch of stupid drunk rednecks storming the capitol, you really think they'd have any chance at stamping out a coordinated and determined armed resistance?
I'm always skeptical of this argument when it comes from the right; the idea that groups of civilian irregulars with semi automatics are going to take down the establishment of the most militarized country on Earth is kinda far-fetched.Air Master Burst wrote:To be clear, I'm not a fan of the whole Wild West attitude this country has toward guns, but I also refuse to disarm myself before we steer a lot clearer of fascism and defang the police a considerable amount. I always like to ask the liberals who are all-in on gun control if they'd be willing to use guns to defend their bodily autonomy when the government comes for their or their family member's uterus, and most of them won't even consider the concept. If this country is really as close to the brink as they seem to believe, they better figure their shit out quick; nonviolent protest doesn't work against militarized fascists.
Sure, the cops have military-grade firepower, but they still have to go home to their families at some point. Families that live in the same neighborhoods as the enemy, that use the same infrastructure as the enemy. An enemy that doesn't wear uniforms, can look like anyone, and can easily acquire and conceal high-powered weapons.Sengoku Strider wrote:
I'm always skeptical of this argument when it comes from the right; the idea that groups of civilian irregulars with semi automatics are going to take down the establishment of the most militarized country on Earth is kinda far-fetched
Assuming that everyone and their grandma agreed to throw themselves at the military in an organized, unified, coordinated effort. Which, considering how often we are at each other's throats, may be just slightly difficult.Sengoku Strider wrote:
I'm always skeptical of this argument when it comes from the right; the idea that groups of civilian irregulars with semi automatics are going to take down the establishment of the most militarized country on Earth is kinda far-fetched.
This can't possibly be serious, can it? Don't be absurd.orange808 wrote:Is Biden a robot?
The problem is that there is no arms race. They already have all the guns, and they're quite vocal about dying before giving them up. You already suggested violence doesn't work for you as a solution, so what do you suggest?orange808 wrote:Maybe we shouldn't be handing out so many guns. Have you heard some of the rubbish these people believe? We're going to get locked into an arms race with these people? Is that wise?
The only option is through the channels we have. We have to keep grinding for votes and hope it works. You're right about my red lines.Air Master Burst wrote:The problem is that there is no arms race. They already have all the guns, and they're quite vocal about dying before giving them up. You already suggested violence doesn't work for you as a solution, so what do you suggest?orange808 wrote:Maybe we shouldn't be handing out so many guns. Have you heard some of the rubbish these people believe? We're going to get locked into an arms race with these people? Is that wise?
That's fair, but how do you propose to disarm millions of people even if you do manage to get enough votes for real gun reform? Most rural police forces already refuse to enforce even the most basic and common sense gun laws. If you're sticking to the channels we have, the regular military is right out; they're not allowed to deploy on US soil. You're left with the National Guard, who are mostly made up of a bunch of the very same idiots you'd be wanting them to disarm.orange808 wrote:The only option is through the channels we have. We have to keep grinding for votes and hope it works. You're right about my red lines.
We're staring down decades of work. It's in the same general arena as health care reform, but worse. We're so invested and dug in to the status quo, it will take a long time to dig out.
And, I won't lie to you; I don't believe in militia. We have a standing army and modern warfare passed up the capabilities of an average person with a gun long ago.
Maybe they won't listen. Maybe only old age and entropy will disarm them. We aren't immortal. Some attitudes die alongside generations. That's why the gun humpers work so hard; they know they need young people to buy their bullshit and keep it alive.Air Master Burst wrote:That's fair, but how do you propose to disarm millions of people even if you do manage to get enough votes for real gun reform? Most rural police forces already refuse to enforce even the most basic and common sense gun laws. If you're sticking to the channels we have, the regular military is right out; they're not allowed to deploy on US soil. You're left with the National Guard, who are mostly made up of a bunch of the very same idiots you'd be wanting them to disarm.orange808 wrote:The only option is through the channels we have. We have to keep grinding for votes and hope it works. You're right about my red lines.
We're staring down decades of work. It's in the same general arena as health care reform, but worse. We're so invested and dug in to the status quo, it will take a long time to dig out.
And, I won't lie to you; I don't believe in militia. We have a standing army and modern warfare passed up the capabilities of an average person with a gun long ago.
And realistically, there's a not-insignificant number of people who would absolutely shoot it out if someone came to disarm them. There's gonna be violence any way you look at it.
That seems reasonable! Until then, I'm staying armed, because these crazies aren't gonna stop coming for us just because they get outvoted.orange808 wrote:
Maybe they won't listen. Maybe only old age and entropy will disarm them. We aren't immortal. Some attitudes die alongside generations. That's why the gun humpers work so hard; they know they need young people to buy their bullshit and keep it alive.
Oho, speaking of! YE DROP THA BOMB ON TOO LIMP + CATAMILO + GAY INCEL MIDGET MEXICAN TEST TUBE HITLERMischief Maker wrote:I'm not the first to say it, but isn't it bizarre that nobody on the right is calling out Trump for hanging out with a booger-eating literal neo-nazi?
Bess REAL TALK™ since PROFESSOR GRIFF help tragically BUCK BROKEN Nick Cannon drop he own BOMB OF TRUTH™ on WHITEH McCRACKERWOOD and DEM WASCALLY OL JOOZ (I remember war crimes so you don't have to 
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