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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 10:10 am 


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FinalBaton wrote:
From the 1st LP all the way up to Seventh Son is all classic, great records.

I agree 100%.

However, my judgement of No Prayer for the Dying and Fear of the Dark is much harsher than yours. Both are largely poor records. Fear has some redeeming features due to the magnificence of its title track, the equally great Afraid to Shoot Strangers and the only slightly less excellent Be Quick or Be Dead. No Prayer has nothing of comparable quality. Even its standout tracks Tailgunner and Mother Russia are just above average compared to the rest of Maiden's works. In fact, I think No Prayer might be my least favourite Maiden record.

Questionable vocal performance aside, I actually quite like The X-Factor. I think the turn to less catchy and more experimental songs was needed at the time to get the band out of the creative cul-de-sac it had maneuvered itself into. Virtual Eleven, though, is indeed rather poor, comparable to No Prayer. (Futureal is the only decent song on it, IMO.)

I never really got into any of the later albums. I thought Brave New World was okay-ish. Nothing wrong with it, nothing exceptional about it either. I keep hearing good things about Book of Souls, but haven't really given it a good listening yet.


vol.2 wrote:
I'm sure there are many smaller bands that have been influenced by them in some way or another. There's usually at least one fantasy head in traditional metal bands.

Absolutely. I remember that Blind Guardian making a bunch of Moorcock-inspired songs were what made me read a couple of his books as a teenager, but somehow those books didn't really do anything for me.


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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 12:21 pm 


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Herr Schatten wrote:
However, my judgement of No Prayer for the Dying and Fear of the Dark is much harsher than yours. Both are largely poor records. Fear has some redeeming features due to the magnificence of its title track, the equally great Afraid to Shoot Strangers and the only slightly less excellent Be Quick or Be Dead. No Prayer has nothing of comparable quality. Even its standout tracks Tailgunner and Mother Russia are just above average compared to the rest of Maiden's works. In fact, I think No Prayer might be my least favourite Maiden record.


I'm OK with people slagging off No Prayer and Fear tbh. They're not exactly stellar records, vocals are different, there's lots of filler and the band was in turmoil and pulling in two different directions. lot of people love them and lot of people write them off. I'm somewhere in the middle, I still think there's some good tunes on there (Judas Be My Guide, Be Quick Or Be Dead, Fates Warning, The Assassin, Run Silent Run Deep, Mother Russia)

I gotta be honest I don't put them on the turntable often
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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 3:40 pm 



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FB: Pan Tang is an island of warrior-sorcerers in the Elric stories.
The Pan Tang guys should fight with magically armored, trained tigers at their side, whence the band's name.
I remember from the RPG that the tigers were quite bad-ass, too (tigers? Check! Quite bigger than the norm for the species? Check! and with magic armour!).

Re: primer, yes, I remember it too but I could not find it (!).
My opinion is more or less a carbon copy of yours, though I am not what could be considered a fan.
Still, I am now old enough to feel that their music has become some sort Linus' quilt for the ears.
I have fond if very campy memories of my childhood friends forcing me to listen to them while we were growing up (and watched them live a few times, for this very reason).

Something similar has happened for Judas Priest.
My father's older brother is the classic prog/hard rock (don't call it "heavy metal"!) member of the family, so I occasionally listened to their works when visiting family.
Re-discovering their discography, very slowly and over the last few months, has also given me the occasion to chat with the uncle over trivial but fond memories.
I am actually finding it hard to explain, how does it feel to find a favourite band/sound/genre this late in life (OK, class of '80), but enjoying the experience with the mind of an adult (...so no mullet headbanging while playing the vynils, sadly).

BIRRU: Thanks, one pint for when we meet (your choice, of course)!
...and thanks for the Opeth comment in the link. I am still kind perplexed, as I like Watershed, most of Blackwater Park and quite a few more songs, but I still cannot decide if and how
much I like Åkerfeldt's "one-man band" style(s). Perfect music for when I miss Sweden, though (and ironically, I went to see them in Gothenburg in 2017 for free, shortly before leaving the country, and
no more than 2 months after discovering them).
Though not a Black Metal person, Ghost of Perdition is a favourite for its late Victorian/early Lovecraftian undertones.
I cannot avoid to think about Dio Brando or, even better, Sebastian Michaelis as perfect characters for the song.

Vol. 2: Yes, BOC and Hawkwind I forgot about (I must ask the uncle to get 20 pages of opinion messages!), Stormbringer I forgot about it too!.
I don't know if I am an MM fan anymore, though as a teen I bought all of his books and comics, played the dice-and-pencil RPGs ad nauseam, and exchanged a few e-mails with the man himself.
I did play the Corum RPG expansion, when it came out, forcing my old-time RPG partners to band again and play it with me.
As an adult, I read the Colonel Pyat quartet and his more literary works, and enjoyed them deeply. The latter Elric stories were pure nostalgia, though I liked them.
Nevertheless, one day I will take all of my notes on MM, his absurdly wide influence (e.g., Neil Gaiman, China Mieville, Moebius, Miyazaki, the [i]Full Metal Alchemist[i/i] lady,...), and staggering amount
of work (e.g., 80+ books), and write a book...that nobody will probably read :wink:
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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 4:32 pm 


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Randorama wrote:
(don't call it "heavy metal"!)


I absolutely would call JP "Heavy Metal." As distinct from just "Metal," being the 80s variant of it. The fact that there are prog elements to it is part of what makes it Heavy Metal and not Metal or one of the subgenres. Iron Maiden is also very proggy, especially the first album, but it's absolutely also Heavy Metal.

Hard Rock is more like Nazareth or Thin Lizzy or Cheap Trick's early output. Prog (straight prog) is more like Crimson or Van Der Graff Generator.

Quote:
(...so no mullet headbanging while playing the vynils, sadly).


Lifestyle choice?

Quote:
I don't know if I am an MM fan anymore, though as a teen I bought all of his books and comics, played the dice-and-pencil RPGs ad nauseam, and exchanged a few e-mails with the man himself.


I haven't read MM in a long time, probably 25-30 years, but I still consider myself a fan. It's certainly among the best heroic fantasy ever written. I think I will probably reread the elric stuff eventually, to see how it holds up. I especially remember enjoying the second DAW paperback collected novel The Sailor on the Seas of Fate. It's the most psychedelic heroic fantasy novel I've ever read; perhaps if that's not appealing to you, I can see why it might not continue to resonate.

Besides, the cover art for the DAW paperbacks is just so unbelievably awesome and nostalgic for me that I can't help loving it.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 2:51 pm 



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Vol. 2: I edited quote marks and an introductory comment.
I wanted to write:

"My uncle would say: "Don't call it Heavy Metal!""

Since he hates the term because of the stereotypes attached to it, many moons ago (old people, etc.).
Apologies for the confusion and yes, I agree with your definitions, of course.

Re: mullet and vynil. I am currently working in China and, honestly, even if I could buy vynils etc., I feel that it would be highly impractical (and time-consuming).
One day, when all the journeys will be over and I will be able to go back to the motherland...

This leaves us with the mullet problem, but that would be a secret I do not wish to reveal at the moment!
BIL can be my witness that I do not hate the haircut though, for very JoJo-esque reasons.

And yes, MM's works were (are; the lad still keeps churning books!) at times absurdly evokative and imaginative.
I am also biased enough to think that he has been absurdly influential across different media and cultural traditions, and thus could be considered the father of *a lot* of modern fiction.

...The truth is that I don't consider myself a "fan" of anything, as I try to enjoy art works without worrying too much about loyalty to the authors and similar such things :wink:
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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 8:14 am 


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How did I get to be 43, and only just realise that 'Breaking The Law' is, in fact, one of the greatest metal songs ever? I'm gonna have to dig into Priest I think.
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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 3:14 pm 


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Weird same age. Yeah, you've had plenty of time. That's awesome though, I love turning up something I totally missed like that. I would say start with Sad Wings of Destiny, but I'm incredibly biased about it.


Recently been listening to the Welsh band Budgie again. They are early 70's, basically a contemporary of Black Sabbath, but different in some important ways. The didn't have the strength of Geezer Butler's writing, and the strong fantasy themes and social commentary, but they did have solid material and arguably superior proficiency (specifically in the rhythm section). The other thing that set Budgie apart from the droves of other early Heavy Metal bands was the incredible time changes and non-standard compositions. They were both slightly behind the times in the early 70s, and looking forward past it. Famously, Metallica covered Crash Course in Brain Surgery from their 1974 album In For the Kill for the Garage Days EP in 1987, but many other big acts have covered Budgie songs over the years including Van Halen and Soundgarden.

Of course, you can't ignore the amazing Roger Dean artwork on the early Budgie albums either. Anything he does immediately catches my eye.

Off the first album, self titled, Nude Disintegrating Parachutist Woman:

Image

And Crash Course in Brain Surgery:

Image

But my favorite album is Squawk from 1972:

Image

Important to remember here that this is the first half of the 1970s, when Lemmy was still lost on a mountainside in a mescaline haze with Dave Brock. This stuff is Proto-"Metal", it's what bands like Diamond Head and Metallica were listening to in the late 70s and would be emulating to some degree. Especially listen to the drumming. The complex and syncopated rhythms that heavily rely on fast changes and kick drum rolls, something that would become a metal hallmark.


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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 8:16 am 


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vol.2 wrote:
Weird same age. Yeah, you've had plenty of time. That's awesome though, I love turning up something I totally missed like that. I would say start with Sad Wings of Destiny, but I'm incredibly biased about it.


I think when I first realised Priest were still around, they were going through their 'Ripper' phase, and Halford was doing the Fight thing, which sounded like an old ( :roll: ) dude trying to do NIN/Manson, so I didn't really pay attention. My only exposure to Priest's music full stop was a slightly campy version of Breking The Law on the b-side of a Therapy? single. It's only hearing the original on the Remastered Rock & Roll Racing that's pricked my ears up believe it or not!
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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 3:06 pm 


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I still gotta dive into Budgie. I'll keep these reccos in mind.

Recently one I delved into for first time is UFO. I was trying to find vinyls from the original Schenker run locally and cheap. Came up empty ended for a few months but two weeks ago I found Force It and No Heavy Petting in town for cheap. Man, that Schenker guy knows how to write great melodic tunes! What a move by the band to poach him from the Scorps.

So far I like Force It a bit better and what an album. Man that one blows me away, I foresee that one sticking with me throughout the years. Funny thing is I'm not even a big hard rock guy. But when you introduce infectious Beatles-esque harmony to it like it's the case here, it's hard to resist. So enjoyable with memorable, haunting melodies throughout. Now I wanna get the whole Schenker first run with the band on vinyl.

Sadly my copy of Force It is censored. So no peeping at Throbbing Gristle's Genesis P. Orridge and Cozy Fani Tutti aggressively making out, haha :x
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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 3:38 pm 


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FinalBaton wrote:
So far I like Force It a bit better and what an album.


Force it is definitely the better album. It's the strongest UFO album AFA material is concerned. Second strongest is Lights Out.

No Heavy Petting was a weird slump of an album. It's still got strong musicianship (as do all UFO albums) but the material is weak.

I would go with Lights Out and the live album, Strangers in the Night. Then, if you really love it and want more, get Obsession. I can't fully recommend anything else, but that doesn't mean there isn't great guitar work on other UFO albums, it's just nothing essential.

The earlier stuff is a whole 'nother ball of wax. The first two UFO albums are like a less chaotic Blue Cheer (Heavy Psych Rock), and Phenomenon is a kind of transitional Hard Rock album with a really neat aesthetic. I personally like those albums, but they are not 5 star because they are spotty. Expect about 3/5ths of the albums to be bangers and the rest ho-hum. But they are not proto-metal, they are pysch-rock, and Phenomenon is Hard Rock similar to Nazareth.


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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 5:44 am 



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Time for a shameless double post:

Tool and Dream Theater: any comments?

I know that I like the first band because I bought their first album when it came out. I lost track of their artistic career by the early 2000's, though.
Second band, not sure what to think, but the bits I heard were sometimes nice, sometimes frustrating.

Thanks in advance!
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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 8:10 am 


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While I'm not a serious enthusiast of theirs, I'm very fond of Undertow; darkly eccentric, yet compact, balls-hard, and catchy. "Prison Sex," "Sober," "Intolerance" (Zuntata crossover :mrgreen:), and more I'm forgetting, I remember blasting it end to end. Gonna blast it right now to reacquaint, actually.

Only passingly familiar with the remainder of their discography, but I did think "Eulogy" and "Schism" (off Aenima and Lateralus respectively) were pretty rad.

I'd recommend Maynard's side gig/supergroup A Perfect Circle, too, at least their first two LPs Mer de Noms and 13th Step. Gorgeously autumnal, gothic-tinged alternative metal. Was recommended it by a Paradise Lost fan, who I'd mention digging their Draconian Times to. Wasn't disappointed (likewise, if you like either, give DT a go - the Hetfieldesque vocals might jar a little, but god damn can those guys write catchy, brooding metal)

>The Hollow
>The Noose

Dream Theater is one of those bands that's adjacent to a million of my favourites, but I've managed to avoid over the years. Nothing deliberate on my part, I just tend to lamp onto a couple bands/discographies per subgenre/era. Image
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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 8:53 am 


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Randorama wrote:
Tool and Dream Theater: any comments?

Tool I can appreciate from a musical point of view, but even though I quite like them in theory, I find myself always listening to something else instead. It seems like you have to be in the right mood to thoroughly enjoy the band, but apparently I'm never in that particular mood.

Dream Theater have some really good bits on their first three albums and on the later Scenes from a Memory. The rest of their catalogue does nothing for me, and even on the good records there are a couple of questionable songs. I do think that on the four aforementioned albums, the good stuff outweighs the not so good stuff quite a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 12:30 pm 


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BIL wrote:
Nothing deliberate on my part, I just tend to lamp onto a couple bands/discographies per subgenre/era.


Same man, 100%

I only know like two death metal bands for example, or like a handful of songs is enough to scratch that particular itch.

Dream Theater are just too damn cheesy but I really love them if i'm in the right mood. Last time I listened to them in a big way was when farming monsters in MH portable 3rd :lol:
Everything up to Train of Thought.

Tool? Yeah my tool phases are like their songs. Very long. every couple of years I'll have a Tool phase and listen religiously. Always notice something i hadn't beforehand. It's cool.

and for some reason just seeing convo about DT has made me wanna listen to that one Malmsteen song.
https://youtu.be/ofUwxDsb424

Also in my youtube recommended I had this the other day. Jesus titty fuckin' F what an image!!!
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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 3:39 pm 


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Undertow came out while I was in HS. The group attracted to their music at the time was jock bros who also liked Pearl Jam a lot, but thought Tool was some kind of revelation for incorporating hard core elements into their music. They were part of a greater trend at the time to mix different genres of music together to create something new. They stand along side Corn and other such acts, and I would also very much include Tori Amos in that group as well.

They were never my "thing," but I enjoyed Undertow when it came out. I can't handle the vocal style anymore for some reason it just pisses me off now.


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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 6:07 pm 


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Blinge wrote:
Also in my youtube recommended I had this the other day. Jesus titty fuckin' F what an image!!!


Haha, I've gotten that one too - cracking thumbnail, does the tune justice. :cool: Those fuckers are definitely chilling beneath a lacerated sky. Image
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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 7:48 pm 


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Ukrainian band Jinjer checks a lot of boxes for me : technical but no shredding everywhere, metal but no being mean, frontend lady sets stage on fire, great performance and sound in the live below, did I mention the lady ?

2 videos to get started with the band :

Pisces live studio performance, definitely worth listening to the end to understand where they’re going. This video is a milestone in the "vocal coach react to" fashion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHLouXKjTNQ

Live in Melbourne 2020. 70 minutes of them live. Highlights for me are I Speak Astronomy (to the end again) and Retrospection
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHLouXKjTNQ
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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2021 3:31 am 



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OK, double answer in chronological order:

BIL: Yes, Undertow was their album that I actually owned back in the day, precisely for the characteristics you listen (weren't the videos from the singles also very eccentric and cool?).
I need to check A Perfect Circle, then, because I am one prone to bouts of aural autumnal decadence, when the context supports them. This leands me to....

Herr Shatten: Yes, my impression of the band is that it needs a precise mood to be appreciated, or their works may become an ear-sore. I went through their discography in the last hours or so and I can get a picture on when I will find them appropriate. Relatively sunny Junes, relatively peaceful phase of life...not yet.

DM in general: Thanks for the suggestions. I suspect that I will agree with you both, somehow, once I try the albums out.

Blinge: yes, I had exactly the same impression. I just need a good cheesy period, then.
Same for Tool: on the right phase I may simply loop their discography ad nauseam. Otherwise, I would just shelve them (well, omit them from the playlist).

Vol. 2: Ah yes, my memories exactly, and I need to agree that the vocal style is something I can appreciate only in the right phase/context.
Would you say that Undertow may have a certain Moorcockian flavour? I remember that I was reading most of his works during that period (teen years etc.).

Just for the cheese, I generally follow certainly seasonsal/weather patterns with music that definitely not ashamed to acknowledge.
When I was in Oz, the perennially shiny weather prevented me from listening anything harder than Daytona USA and Zuntata.
Maybe the odd Maiden song when hitting the Maroubra or Manly beaches.

Metal? Sweden and my hometown for sure (really, same "4 months of winter, 6 months of autumn" kind of weather :lol: ).
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Last edited by Randorama on Sun May 30, 2021 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2021 5:55 am 


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Randorama wrote:
BIL: Yes, Undertow was their album that I actually owned back in the day, precisely for the characteristics you listen (weren't the videos from the singles also very eccentric and cool?).


Most definitely - I only had MTV2 for a couple years growing up, but those stop-motion videos made an immortal impression. Tangentially, Masahiro Ito's masterful creature designs from Silent Hill 2+3 attracted me for precisely the same reason - deliberately uncanny, embracing the limitations of technology, rather than trying to skirt around them (this being SH1's founding principle, with its famous parlay of poly draw distance into oppressive murk).

(even further tangent - SH2+3 used MoCap for human characters, but never for monsters, amplifying their aberrant, impossibly violent/erratic tics. when Konami's bean counters farmed the series out to some Western assclowns - yep, all monsters mocapped, and looking like kids in Halloween costumes :sad: Tangent over, or is it :shock: :wink:)

I'd actually kinda forgotten the songs themselves, between then and going off to study, where I happened across copies of Undertow and Aenima and felt nostalgic ("nostalgic" in kid terms, meaning "a couple years ago..." :mrgreen:)
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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:29 am 


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BIL wrote:
I'd recommend Maynard's side gig/supergroup A Perfect Circle, too, at least their first two LPs Mer de Noms and 13th Step. Gorgeously autumnal, gothic-tinged alternative metal. Was recommended it by a Paradise Lost fan, who I'd mention digging their Draconian Times to. Wasn't disappointed (likewise, if you like either, give DT a go - the Hetfieldesque vocals might jar a little, but god damn can those guys write catchy, brooding metal)

>The Hollow
>The Noose

Dream Theater is one of those bands that's adjacent to a million of my favourites, but I've managed to avoid over the years. Nothing deliberate on my part, I just tend to lamp onto a couple bands/discographies per subgenre/era. Image


I love APC's first album, superb stuff, but thought everything after that went a bit drippy. Maybe I'll give the second a re-listed.
Ah Paradise Lost, fuck you've taken me back there!
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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:38 am 


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Marc wrote:
Ah Paradise Lost, fuck you've taken me back there!

Me, too. All of their albums from Gothic to One Second are quite excellent. After that, I think they lost it (no pun intended) a bit, leading to me losing first interest in then track of them. At the time I actually thought that Draconian Times, while a great record if looked at individually, was playing it safe too much. It merely felt like Icon part II, and I did prefer that one (still do).

One of the worst live bands I've ever seen, though. No one sings as heartbreakingly out of tune as Nick Holmes. When he howls the first lines of Enchantment ("Ooooh, lika a fever, fever...") like a wolf cub beaten with a stick, it's not nice.
Nevertheless, I still went to see the band live thrice. Go figure.


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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:34 am 


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Got the new self-titled Helloween album in the mail today. I went in trying to keep my expectations low, as there's no way this record could ever live up to the hype following the return of Kiske and Hansen to the band. Nevertheless, I'm actually enjoying it a great deal. While it doesn't quite reach the lofty heights of the genre-defining Keeper albums (honestly, how could it?), it's easily their best work since Better Than Raw, which is far more than could be reasonably expected. The line-up with the three vocalists works surprisingly well. Kiske's voice in particular is in excellent shape, showing nothing of the tiredness the recent performances of Dickinson and Halford suffered from. I'm not too big a fan of Charlie Bauerfeind's sound production, though. His work always makes me feel like you need a certain set-up to enjoy fully that, apparently, I don't have.


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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:11 pm 


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You've really piqued my interest now, I'm definitely giving the new Helloween a spin ( which I wasn't particularly keen on giving a try)
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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:43 am 


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Again, I'll repeat myself from the main music thread.

Boss Keloid - Family the Smiling Thrush. Go listen.

Also I believe Quicksand have dropped another new track, but I don't wanna listen if they're going to be part of a full EP/album.
I had Red Fang's new one on order, and cancelled because Amazon screwed up delivery. Glad I did, because I heard a clip last night, and it's Red Fang as usual, but with the worst production job I've ever heard.
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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:53 am 


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Don't forget me!!! Yea, thats actually me Twitchdoctor, from Vodkatron. I go by Chooch McGoon now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WezRHRXFtow
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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:48 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
Prog (straight prog) is more like Crimson or Van Der Graff Generator.

VdGG feels rather "motor rock" to me, like The Doors, Joy Division, or Can. "Pulse rock"?* Pretty drum/beat-centric, even if, at their time, usage of keyboard/proto-sampling/tape attracted more attention (I don't quite really remember THOSE times, but that is my impression). Crimson had been so many things that, as someone put it, Fripp's contribution was their only common denominator (even his guitar did sound differently almost every time).
Then again, "prog rock" term has been rubbing me the wrong way ever since I'd found nineteen-eighties' bands using it most derivative. Although I've not much problem with some wanting just that. There's obviously a market for it.
As for Heavy/Hard Rock bands doing substantially progressive things (when they were new), High Tide, or Deep Purple come to mind. I guess both knew Vanilla Fudge and tried to go weird their own way.

*) Considerably, disco grew big in late nineteen-sixties.
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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:44 pm 


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Obiwanshinobi wrote:
VdGG feels rather "motor rock" to me, like The Doors, Joy Division, or Can. "Pulse rock"?* Pretty drum/beat-centric, even if, at their time, usage of keyboard/proto-sampling/tape attracted more attention (I don't quite really remember THOSE times, but that is my impression). Crimson had been so many things that, as someone put it, Fripp's contribution was their only common denominator (even his guitar did sound differently almost every time).


Fripp also contributed to multiple VdGG albums as well. The first VdGG album is actually psych-rock, and very close to some of what Can was doing at some point in their career (so you can't count that album as it's a total anomaly).

That genre of German music (Can's genre) from the 70s shared a lot in common with prog, but felt more derivative of Psych Rock in that it tended to favor droning, pulsing rhythms rather than varied, composed rhythms. Can was a lot more R&B based in their drums, but they stuck with the same beat the whole way through (most) of their pieces, subtly varying it in classic drone fashion. Kraftwerk was more pulsing than drumming. Musically they serve similar purposes, but flavor things differently and sculpt the mood accordingly (energetic vs relax).

VdGG used varied, composed rhythms and was the epidemy of Prog. https://youtu.be/sOIrGNddjMQ?t=823 and https://youtu.be/sOIrGNddjMQ?t=887

Classic Prog was an extension of modern composition like Stravinsky https://youtu.be/EkwqPJZe8ms?t=449


and stuff like Can and Kraftwerk and Faust was more like Contemporary Composition such as John Cage and Terry Riley in it's minimalist nature. https://youtu.be/tbTn79x-mrI?t=66

If I can see anyone sharing something musically with Joy division, it's Can, but J.D. owed most of their sound to The Velvet Underground and their hopelessness and existential tone (something the Cure would cop around the same time).

The Doors I don't get how they would fit into the discussion at all, really. Their live shows were more performance art than just music, and their studio albums were a blend of pop psych and blues rock. I don't see them as substantially having an effect on what became Prog in the 70s, or being anything like VdGG.


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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:50 pm 


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Mentioning The Doors, I meant L.A. Woman, really. Always been my favourite. Maybe it's their kind of monotony I feel they share with each other.
Or maybe VdGG's drummer is just that good I pay so much attention to it all the time? Roxy Music's debut album had something of such an effect on me ("percussion SO good here"). Some of things where Hubert Zemler drums these days, also, but I think he refers to Krautrock most intentionally in the pieces I'm thinking about.
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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:52 pm 


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Forgot I ordered them, but the recent represses of Tiamat's Wildhoney and A Deeper Kind of Slumber hit my mailbox a few days ago. Wildhoney has been a favourite of mine for a long time (I used to put it on repeat while grinding out levels for NIS super bosses) but the one time I looked DKoS up on Youtube it didn't connect.

Wildhoney is still special but after giving DKoS another try I'm still convinced that Tiamat's greatness was a flash in the pan. DKoS dialed back the metal and lost the interesting mix of styles, and is much less of a trip as a result.
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 Post subject: Re: HARD ROCK SOLDIER x HEAVY METAL KILLER: Rawk Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:11 am 


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CStarFlare wrote:
Wildhoney is still special but after giving DKoS another try I'm still convinced that Tiamat's greatness was a flash in the pan.

Absolutely. I think this is largely down to Wildhoney having been practically co-written by producer Waldemar Sorychta, even though he's only officially credited on one song. If I recall the stories correctly, Johan Edlund was a bit confused and unsure what to do after he had fired most of his band, but started production of the album anyway. Sorychta then happily stepped in and filled the (presumably pretty large) gaps.


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