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Who is your preferred pokémon?
Joe Biden 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Cory Booker 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Kamala Harris 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Elizabeth Warren / Tulsi Gabbard 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Hollywood Celebrity 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Deval Patrick / Julian Castro 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Donald Trump 39%  39%  [ 12 ]
Michael Avenatti 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Bernard Sanders 39%  39%  [ 12 ]
Hillary Clinton / Michael Bloomberg / Mark Zuckerberg / Chelsea Clinton / Kirsten Gillibrand 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 31
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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:04 am 


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BryanM wrote:
I think defending Warren and her job to help split the left and help Biden win so he can lose to Trump is less distasteful.


Well now Tulsi Gabbard just threw her hat in, splitting the progressive vote even further.

Jesus Christ, run, Bernie, RUN!
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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:18 am 


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The word isn't "can't", quash. It's "won't".

Dracula won't stake himself. Stop being identical to those 11 dimensional chess Obama people.

Are Trump and Obama identical?

If one takes the position that presidents are 100% responsible and in control, and only make bad decisions because they are bad presidents, then it would seem that one's only recourse is to sit back and wait for that perfect candidate (with the correct party affiliation next to their name, of course) to finally get into office. And given the track record, I'm not sure how the electorate would even be able to recognize "the one." Sounds rather defeatist.

We had some people arguing that there is a big difference between Party 1 and Party 2. I don't see how that position could be maintained if every policy that stayed the same under Obama and Trump, despite what was said on the campaign trail, was NOT being influenced by some other entity.

I also recall some talk about reforming a political party "from within." And again I'm pretty sure this plan would require identifying forces that opposed reform, and gaining the favor of individuals throughout the organization, not just one person at the top.

My goal in probing the decision making process is not to exonerate Trump, but to expose the men behind the curtain. Don't forget that everytime Trump questions the previously unquestionable, media can't help themselves but report on it, and people who were quietly propping up the status quo are forced to come out and say why Trump is wrong (and everyone gets a chance to judge whether what they are saying is BS or not)
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The results have been, to those who weren't paying attention before, eye opening, to say the least. I'll be eternally grateful to Trump for exposing the media for the sham that it is and getting even the most head in the sand members of society privy to the bullshit we've been fed, even if only in small amounts.

Absolutely. A lot of pundits, media outlets, think tanks, etc. who claimed to be objective and non-partisan suddenly blew their cover and held up their agenda. Meanwhile Congress, corporate media, and tech monopolies are openly conspiring among themselves to censor political speech.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:21 am 


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Poll needs to be fixed. Tulsi Gabbard is not on the poll.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:40 am 


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Ok but it'd be nicer if we got that "more than 10 poll options" plug-in installed.

And the [s]strikeout[/s] one would be nice to have, too. Remember how awesome having CENTER and SPOILER tags installed were?

(... yes, I feel dirty putting her next to Warren.)


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:56 pm 


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ED-057 wrote:
Quote:
The word isn't "can't", quash. It's "won't".

Dracula won't stake himself. Stop being identical to those 11 dimensional chess Obama people.

Are Trump and Obama identical?

If one takes the position that presidents are 100% responsible and in control, and only make bad decisions because they are bad presidents, then it would seem that one's only recourse is to sit back and wait for that perfect candidate (with the correct party affiliation next to their name, of course) to finally get into office. And given the track record, I'm not sure how the electorate would even be able to recognize "the one." Sounds rather defeatist.

We had some people arguing that there is a big difference between Party 1 and Party 2. I don't see how that position could be maintained if every policy that stayed the same under Obama and Trump, despite what was said on the campaign trail, was NOT being influenced by some other entity.

I also recall some talk about reforming a political party "from within." And again I'm pretty sure this plan would require identifying forces that opposed reform, and gaining the favor of individuals throughout the organization, not just one person at the top.

My goal in probing the decision making process is not to exonerate Trump, but to expose the men behind the curtain. Don't forget that everytime Trump questions the previously unquestionable, media can't help themselves but report on it, and people who were quietly propping up the status quo are forced to come out and say why Trump is wrong (and everyone gets a chance to judge whether what they are saying is BS or not)
Quote:
The results have been, to those who weren't paying attention before, eye opening, to say the least. I'll be eternally grateful to Trump for exposing the media for the sham that it is and getting even the most head in the sand members of society privy to the bullshit we've been fed, even if only in small amounts.

Absolutely. A lot of pundits, media outlets, think tanks, etc. who claimed to be objective and non-partisan suddenly blew their cover and held up their agenda. Meanwhile Congress, corporate media, and tech monopolies are openly conspiring among themselves to censor political speech.


It's a puppet show.

That being said, the "Trump" situation was inevitable for many synchronistically exponential reasons.
We have a Western generation, realising that they have been lied to on pretty much all fronts, throughout their lives.
People are vomiting-up a lifetime dose of "political correctness", everywhere you look.
Trump was inevitable.

Is he "for real"?
Well, is he alive? There's your answer.

In the end, it does not matter. The Western shift to the "Right", gains momentum daily.
If the sham "realty", long fostered by the media and now flailing about in that same media's death throes, is yet another sacrificial distraction - in the end it does not matter.
It was inevitable anyway and will not slow the shift down one jot.

The increasingly ludicrous nature of what is today generally seen as the "Left", is the most obvious show of this.
The rapidly expanding troop, of ever more comical and fantastic "candidates", is the most natural and obvious indication of it's death.


The Game, is up. Which is why end-game is all-in on the demographic bet.
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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:19 pm 


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BryanM wrote:
(... yes, I feel dirty putting her next to Warren.)


Dude! Put Tulsi Gabbard in that miscellaneous list at the bottom where she belongs!

Or if you think Tulsi's not going to be immediately sunk by her conservative/faschy/culty past, Avenatti's already out of the running, thanks to Trump's friends at TMZ helping to publicly swat him. Give his spot to Gabbard.

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To answer your previous question of will Warren fundamentally change the structure of the Democratic party, the answer is maybe! Which is a hell of a lot better than every other non-Sanders figure on that list. She fought like hell against a hostile Obama administration to create the consumer financial protection bureau, and she designed it in a way that, hard as they try, the Republicans haven't been able to destroy. As soon as Trump is out, the CPB is going to go right on taking money out of Wall Street's pocket and putting it back in the consumer's pocket.

Once again, I prefer Bernie on philosophical grounds as well as several key issues, but he and Warren are in a different class from all the other politicians in this race. Someone on the Majority Report put it perfectly yesterday: Sanders and Warren were activists first, politicians second. All the rest are politicians first who LARP as activists when the cameras are on them. The difference between the two is Bernie Sanders is a democratic socialist activist and Warren is a progressive liberal activist.

And we still don't know if Bernie is even going to run!

And stop worrying about Biden, he's got a long history of losing primaries. And what are the chances he won't be me-too'ed?
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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:25 pm 


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Zen wrote:
The increasingly ludicrous nature of what is today generally seen as the "Left", is the most obvious show of this.
The rapidly expanding troop, of ever more comical and fantastic "candidates", is the most natural and obvious indication of it's death.


I hope that is inclusive of the dip shit "candidates" on the right, too.
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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:50 pm 


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Gabbard has some questions to answer about her relationship to Indian nationalists, and her Syria statements. Overall seems decent.

I loved it when Beto instagrammed his dental cleaning. :o


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:15 pm 


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GaijinPunch wrote:
Zen wrote:
The increasingly ludicrous nature of what is today generally seen as the "Left", is the most obvious show of this.
The rapidly expanding troop, of ever more comical and fantastic "candidates", is the most natural and obvious indication of it's death.


I hope that is inclusive of the dip shit "candidates" on the right, too.


There is an American "Right"?
When did that happen and who are these "candidates"?

Ultimately, I strongly dislike these terms. They are "political" - whatever the fuck that means (see?)

The point that I make about the "Left", is this;
All systems under the stress of decline, signal their demise by increased and premature propagation.
This is where we get the term "Going to seed". And again, I would direct attention to demographics, in this regard.

I'm not "having a go" at the "Left". None of this is "political", to me. There is no politics. There is only fact and fantasy.
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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:46 pm 


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There's also something called "preference." Some people prefer to be leaders, others follow - that is not a matter of "fact and fantasy" nor even of right and wrong.

There's a big literature on attitudes towards authoritarianism in the US electorate, which maps the right-left spectrum fairly well.

It's very basic stuff. But I suppose denying that there are preferences puts you on the "fantasy" end of your own black-and-white way of seeing things.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:17 pm 


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Ed Oscuro wrote:
There's also something called "preference." Some people prefer to be leaders, others follow - that is not a matter of "fact and fantasy" nor even of right and wrong.
Of course. But categorising preferences, under the constraints of political terminology is not helpful.
It is the results of "preferences" (and the motivations behind such preferences) that interest me.

Ed Oscuro wrote:
There's a big literature on attitudes towards authoritarianism in the US electorate, which maps the right-left spectrum fairly well.
Could you explain this to me, please?

Ed Oscuro wrote:
It's very basic stuff. But I suppose denying that there are preferences puts you on the "fantasy" end of your own black-and-white way of seeing things.
Not sure how you interpreted anything I have said as a denial of the existence of "preference" but certainly there are preferences which are based upon fantasy and preferences that coexist with fact.
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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:33 pm 


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What more do you need to know? "There's a big literature" means that it is not hard to do a web search. There are similar studies - the general category is the study of political polarization. The essential takeaway is that many things are correlated: Spanking children for punishment, affinity for "strong" leaders or dictators, and "conservative" values (as self-described by those who hold them). This does not mean that being a conservative is necessarily bad, but it shows a set of issues to be aware of.

Good to hear that you aren't sticking to a denial of preference spectra in politics ;) Also worth mentioning that future effects of today's policies cannot be precisely known, which is obvious enough but the average voter keeps on voting for politicians who say "I will do this" when they are really just promising that they will implement a certain range of policies which probably will have a desired effect. The wild ride on the stock market of late is a good example why these claims can't be taken as concrete promises.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:16 pm 


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Quote:
And stop worrying about Biden, he's got a long history of losing primaries. And what are the chances he won't be me-too'ed?


It's true historically he crashes and burns. That doesn't guarantee anything - when he's not slobbering over billionaires or bashing the kids, he's cosmetically rather likable. (A slightly less douchey and less SJW version of Trump, kinda.)

John Kerry was at ~5% back in 2000. If Biden is the only entity party loyalists have to coil around, that's what they'll do. (God knows they love former VP's.) They're trying real hard to make Beto a thing, but it doesn't look promising. Building a brand takes a decade, not five months.

The goal need not even be to win outright - all it'll take is denying the anti-puppet faction a delegate majority on the first ballot and having the super delegates decide.

Mischief Maker wrote:
And we still don't know if Bernie is even going to run!


While that's true in a pedantic "anything can happen" manner, it isn't in a realistic one. For extensive reasons we've already gone over.

Quote:
Put Tulsi Gabbard in that miscellaneous list at the bottom where she belongs!


That's the "cringy loser billionaire no one sane wants to represent the Democratic party" bucket.

It's a bit unfair to toss Gillibrand in there because she at least knows she has to properly lie about where she stands.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:40 pm 



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GaijinPunch wrote:
I think the demographic crisis is pretty plain and simple and we know exactly how to fuck it up - Do exactly what Japan has done for it's 2.X lost decades, and is kinda sorta trying to fix now (but not succeeding). Or... do what Trump and the human penis Steven Miller are proposing.

Trump claims he is for legal immigration as he knows it's required for economic growth, which I don't buy for a second. Even if I did, it is not enough. It needs to be encouraged and the process streamlined. The US has the biggest idiots working in the immigration department (unless things have changed drastically in 10 years), and their job has just gotten more convoluted. My ex's green card renewal process took 10 months. Ten... fucking... months. She's had the card for like 10 years, has a child that's a citizen, pays taxes, etc. etc. Basically clogging the system keeps the numbers down as a side effect, which I assume is the intention.


Sounds good in theory. In practice, however, the need to be selective about who we let in is the crucial aspect of the entire discussion that nobody seems to want to address.

Truthfully, I'd like to shut off all immigration temporarily while we restructure our social programs and un-fuck the job market, but that's not going to happen any time soon it seems.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:20 am 


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quash wrote:
Sounds good in theory. In practice,


Oh, cool...

quash wrote:
however, the need to be selective about who we let in is the crucial aspect of the entire discussion that nobody seems to want to address.


I guess I'd also question the criteria, since you need people at all levels doing all kinds of jobs and paying taxes. As stated above, just do what Japan did if you want this to be a problem in 20 years where every cuntry in the entire world points their finger and says, "see, you done fucked up". They're finally getting low-skilled foreign labor into the work force, but of course they have all these stupid ass rules that send home the people they need most (elderly care) after X months. Meanwhile, you have 95 year olds taking care of their 98 year old spouse.

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Truthfully, I'd like to shut off all immigration temporarily while we restructure our social programs and un-fuck the job market, but that's not going to happen any time soon it seems.


While we finger ourselves trying to figure shit out, the problem exacerbates. Aside from that, there is no such thing as a temporary law (or tax). Whenever I hear a politician say that my ass puckers. Second, we'll likely never finish restructuring social programs. And the job market... I guess I don't know what you mean. Unemployment is quite low... I'm at a firm that can't find qualified talent. (Who the fuck knows about next week but the only the fucked up about the job market is so many people hiring). And thirdly, everyone's definition of that varies so greatly, the statement sounds like some fluffy shit you'd read on an internet forum.
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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:42 am 



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For someone that's supposedly left leaning, everything you say about economics reads like it's coming from someone who can only focus on the line on the GDP per capita chart. You hit just about every neoliberal talking point in a single post.

"Can't find qualified talent". A likely story when entry level jobs require unnecessary or even impossible years of experience and a bachelor's. Also a perfect excuse to bring in someone on an H1B who spent a fraction on their education compared to a comparably qualified American. This all conveniently serves many groups of people, with the notable exclusion of most Americans.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:45 am 


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And this wall will stop H1B visa holders how?

Boy do I feel better being in the position of defending Elizabeth Warren's record than you defending Trump's.
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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:11 am 


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Mischief Maker wrote:
And this wall will stop H1B visa holders how?


Let's not forget those who overstay their tourist visa.
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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:45 am 


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quash wrote:
For someone that's supposedly left leaning, everything you say about economics reads like it's coming from someone who can only focus on the line on the GDP per capita chart. You hit just about every neoliberal talking point in a single post.


I work in finance. And from having a lot of horses in the aforementioned race on tMy son more so.

Quote:
"Can't find qualified talent". A likely story when entry level jobs require unnecessary or even impossible years of experience and a bachelor's. Also a perfect excuse to bring in someone on an H1B who spent a fraction on their education compared to a comparably qualified American. This all conveniently serves many groups of people, with the notable exclusion of most Americans.


We hire people out of school... but some slots require some specific skills (wow, imagine that!). Those people are currently hard to find. If I'm to believe Reddit, we don't have it as bad as most, given the region.

Feel free to keep putting words in my mouth.
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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:31 am 



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Well if you work in finance then this all makes sense. Things are fine, great even, as far as you're concerned. There's no cause for concern except for all these jobs we can't find qualified candidates for. Don't hurt yourself thinking too hard about why that might be.

Mischief Maker wrote:
And this wall will stop H1B visa holders how?


Separate but related issues. Illegal immigration is just as big of, if not more of a problem. Obviously I don't think a wall is going to change everything overnight, but it's a start. We can use some more people at the border and some UAVs while we're at it.

If nothing else, ask yourself: why is it the US is willing to pay for border walls for other countries, but not for our own?


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:34 am 


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Dude! Put Tulsi Gabbard in that miscellaneous list at the bottom where she belongs!

Or if you think Tulsi's not going to be immediately sunk by her conservative/faschy/culty past

Wouldn't it be great though, if corporate lizard people Dems were crowded out of the primary field? We've seen that they can rig a primary to boost Clinton over Sanders. But can they rig a primary to boost a sponsored nobody over multiple popular candidates at the same time?
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Sanders and Warren were activists first, politicians second.

Hmmm, I don't know about that. Letting the DNC get away with their treachery in '16 seems more like what a politician do than an activist.
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There is an American "Right"?
When did that happen and who are these "candidates"?

Ultimately, I strongly dislike these terms. They are "political" - whatever the fuck that means (see?)

The notions of left and right are useful for dividing people into two squabbling camps. Totally useless for formulating sane policy or building consensus. (I challenge anyone to show otherwise)
Quote:
I guess I'd also question the criteria, since you need people at all levels doing all kinds of jobs and paying taxes. As stated above, just do what Japan did if you want this to be a problem in 20 years

If we can't make an economy work with a stable population then our addiction to infinite growth will end up killing "the planet" a.k.a. us. We should get away from Ponzi schemes and move toward sustainability. (If Japan wants to be the guinea pig and figure out how to do it, I say more power to them.)


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:51 am 


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Trump has reportedly tweeted that withdrawal from Syria is still happening.

And he said not to worry about the Kurds because he told Erdogan to keep his hands to himself.

But in all seriousness, let's not forget that Russia is still supporting the Syrian government. Its doubtful that Turkey would risk taking them on in a major incursion.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:18 pm 


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quash wrote:
Well if you work in finance then this all makes sense. Things are fine, great even, as far as you're concerned. There's no cause for concern except for all these jobs we can't find qualified candidates for. Don't hurt yourself thinking too hard about why that might be.


Why would I when I have you to paraphrase everything? We're still waiting on WWIII sparked by the South China Sea drama.

I guess I still don't know what the fuck you're talking about (shocker). What about the job market needs to get un-fucked exactly? The only real undeniable thing that hasn't gone to shit in 2 years, and probably what has kept Trumps approval rating at his solid 38% and not 32% is unemployment (which is the gold standard for how well the economy is doing). We can debate until the cows come home about whether he is to thank or not.
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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:04 pm 


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Ed Oscuro wrote:
There's a big literature on attitudes towards authoritarianism in the US electorate, which maps the right-left spectrum fairly well.

Yeah, I've also read some of this material from ethnically and ideologically unbiased sources - whites are on the verge of Nazism at all times, so it's a good thing their voting share in their own country is being lessened by not-at-all authoritarian, undemocratic intervention.

Image

At least this cuts right to the chase: right = "white Americans". A bit more from Noah:

Image

Image

Wow! :shock: It's almost like Noah and cohorts hate white people, but thanks for pushing this kind of propaganda like a useful idiot, Ed.

Mischief Maker wrote:
And what are the chances he won't be me-too'ed?

It would be a gift if Trump's opponent is Biden. Would just have to loop those creepy clips of him caressing and smelling the hair of visibly uncomfortable women and children, his description of Obama as "clean" and "articulate" ("I mean, that's a storybook, man."), etc.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:33 am 


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Rob wrote:
It would be a gift if Trump's opponent is Biden. Would just have to loop those creepy clips of him caressing and smelling the hair of visibly uncomfortable women and children, his description of Obama as "clean" and "articulate" ("I mean, that's a storybook, man."), etc.


Because as a nation we've decided that we won't stand for creepy dudes in office. :?
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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:57 am 


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Touché, but it'd certainly be a funny experiment to see if liberals can go from making Trump out to be the biggest pervert in the nation to voting for Gropin' Uncle Joe.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:33 pm 


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Not as big of a spectacle as watching the religious right take the hypocritical low road when it comes to morality in our elected leaders. You're right, he should be called out, but I think in future elections such antics are going to be a lot less of a deal. If the left's balls would drop, they could just play the Trump card for at least 2020 if not a few more. I mean, some of the younger players are already dropping F-bombs on live TV (and of course Donny is polishing his halo).
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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:02 pm 


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GaijinPunch wrote:
If the left's balls would drop, they could just play the Trump card for at least 2020 if not a few more. I mean, some of the younger players are already dropping F-bombs on live TV (and of course Donny is polishing his halo).


lol, that reminds me of the time Tom Perez was trying out the "Republicans don't give a shit about you" strategy. While completely true, the underlying problem is that Democrats don't, either.

Swearing neither increases or decreases perceived sincerity, except perhaps to morons. Rational people would just point to a donor and the associated employer list as the entirety of people a politician cares about.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:07 pm 


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BryanM wrote:
Swearing neither increases or decreases perceived sincerity, except perhaps to morons.

Sadly this is not an insignificant amount of people.
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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:50 am 


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Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 18312
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs
GaijinPunch wrote:
Rob wrote:
It would be a gift if Trump's opponent is Biden. Would just have to loop those creepy clips of him caressing and smelling the hair of visibly uncomfortable women and children, his description of Obama as "clean" and "articulate" ("I mean, that's a storybook, man."), etc.


Because as a nation we've decided that we won't stand for creepy dudes in office. :?

Oops, GOP can't even censure Steve King.

@Rob: Man, what are you ON these days? Lay off the cherry pickin' shit my man.


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