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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:48 pm 


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iconoclast wrote:
In games like AvP you have extremely powerful characters who are free to do anything - ultimately you can solve most encounters with the same basic approach.


Wrong, your opinion is bad and you should feel bad. The individual waves in AVP are resoundingly meaningful in their design and most require thoughtful applications of ones moveset.

You can indeed demolish the game once you learn to truly take advantage of your characters mechanics. But that's where the fun really begins.

First you go for a simple clear, learning the ropes. Then you return to style on it with the insane moveset and combo options like it's Devil May Cry, while also 1lc'ing or no damage clearing.

Of course, seeing as how the game runs on non-stop rng and the waves are quite smart, 1LC's are still deadly intense. I've seen JP superplayers wreck their way through the game live only to suddenly ruin their 1lc on the last stages due to a moments hesitation.

AVP is one of the 5 greatest action games ever made, so good it gave me an existential crisis because I realized it might not be possible to make a better game.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:42 pm 


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People will laugh about the reason why I don't like AvsP much.... The music. It's irritating to me, repetitive, and it's super loud so I can't ignore it. I get the sound design point of it being overwhelming to the ears just like the millions of Aliens ganging up on the player, but I can't enjoy it.

Ironically, the composer later did one of my favorite OSTs ever, which I still listen to this day, for SFIII 3rd strike


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:04 am 


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The soundtrack is indeed underwhelming, unfortunately. One of those games I tend to play with a custom ost, as heretical as that may be.

A shame they couldn't get Yoko Shimmomura to do the ost again like in The Punisher. Imagine the game with a Parasite Eve-esque techno-opera horror soundtrack. I'm sweating just thinking about it.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:09 am 


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I actually like AvP's soundtrack. The BGM for stage 5 "Secrets" fits it perfectly, & I don't mind Capcom's using it again closer to the end of the game.
Capcom needs to pick the license up once more & finally port it. It'd easily be worth $15-20 by itself.

DD4 is a disappointment especially coming from Arc System Works. Not a total flop, but it just could have been better. Why didn't they take some inspiration from DD Advance or DDII's PC-Engine CD version for the art style, instead of the NES games?

Turrican wrote:
Heh, if that is a factor for your, try RDD on SFC and it'll be very hard to get back to... any other brawler on the system, pretty much.

Agreed. The enemy AI is well done, unlike Capcom's Final Fight SFC port & its sequels. The blocking is awesome, especially when you catch an enemy's arm & start wrecking him.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:32 am 



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iconoclast wrote:
but nothing is more important than the balance between the player and the enemies. In games like AvP you have extremely powerful characters who are free to do anything - ultimately you can solve most encounters with the same basic approach. A simpler game like Final Fight ends up being deeper because you really have to understand where/when/how to use all of your tools in each situation, pay more attention to positioning, etc.

Yeah I'd say that the best thing about Final Fight is the unforgettable enemy design, it might be Capcom's best in that aspect as each one feels so unique to learn and the mixups are just a blast (except the last one of course heh). Be sure to clear it with Haggar as well as it's almost a different game with him (and a better one at that imo).
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:54 am 


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Vludi wrote:
Yeah I'd say that the best thing about Final Fight is the unforgettable enemy design, it might be Capcom's best in that aspect as each one feels so unique to learn and the mixups are just a blast (except the last one of course heh). Be sure to clear it with Haggar as well as it's almost a different game with him (and a better one at that imo).


Absolutely. As good as AVP is the enemy AI just doesn’t get anywhere near what is on display in Final Fight. The designers put as much thought into the enemies as they did the heroes, they each have their own quirks and ways of behaving. I even think that the infinite punch isn’t so much a bug as it is an intrinsic part of the game as Poison and Roxy are the only characters who are able to break free from the combo. That has to be designed into the game. While difficult I haven’t seen anything like that level of personality in AVP.


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:37 am 


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The enemy AI is honestly very similar in my experience. The player character is just stronger.

Xenomorphs tend to move around in a variety of ways, offensively and defensively, and while playing footsies with an individual isn't too tough due to the players increased speed and utility, the greater number of them on screen means you have to mentally manage the patterns of a lot more moving targets at once in order to avoid having whatever cool stylish maneuver you were planning blow up in your face. Even seemingly surefire dive or jump attacks can get unexpectedly countered by "meaty" formations if you aren't managing and spacing things perfectly.

While I personally prefer AVP, I think they are different enough games with different enough goals that it's not totally fair to compare them in such a way though. Final Fight is obviously much harder to simply clear, but AVP is really only just beginning once you nail the 1cc, and the intricacies of its enemy design and ai becomes more apparent once you try to drive home more and more authoritative clears. Rather than getting easier the more exploitative you become, nailing down stylish 1lc's or no damage runs that improvisationally make use of all your diverse and technical stunts (without them embarrassingly explode in your face) is something that requires no less focus and skill.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:21 pm 


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It’s each to their own I guess, it’s all very subjective as there is no right or wrong answer. Final Fight is by far the stricter game and it’s more about meticulously dealing with the crowd rather than flashy execution. AVP has a certain Devil May Cry style vibe to it with the many ways there are to deal damage in the game. It’s a lot more fluid and therefore plays somewhat differently. A game like Knights of the Round plays even differently again with its blocking mechanic. That’s the thing with Capcom brawlers, they do tend to differ somewhat with each game.

But adding a bigger move set doesn’t necessarily make a better game, look at Final Fight Tough. The heroes can pretty much tackle any situation and yet it’s just a shame that the enemies and the entire game in general is just a snooze fest. You can tell that the arcade teams were light years ahead of the console teams.


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:08 pm 



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As someone who never got into AvP: doesn't the animation detract somewhat from the overall quality of the game? There just aren't enough frames, and it comes off a bit herky-jerky vs. the older FF.

With CPS2 being such an incredible board, I felt the lack of animation really took away from the look of both AvP and Metal Warriors. Both look amazing in stills but weren't all they could have been.


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:05 pm 


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gameoverDude wrote:
DD4 is a disappointment especially coming from Arc System Works. Not a total flop, but it just could have been better. Why didn't they take some inspiration from DD Advance or DDII's PC-Engine CD version for the art style, instead of the NES games?


The official reason for modelling DD4 after DD2NES was because it used the same promotional art in every region and the in-game visual scenes were also consistent with the boxart. But I think the real reason was because they made the game under a shoestring budget with five people and a short development time, and aping the NES-style was much easier under those constraints than the arcade or 16-bit games.

I personally would've liked to had seen Return of Double Dragon being given a remake treatment similar to what Natsume did with the recent Wild Guns and the upcoming Ninjawarriors Again, but instead they did some SNES repro cart that can apparently damage certain consoles. I heard Koji Ogata (the former Kunio/Double Dragon pixel artist) even quit ASW because they licensed those Double Dragon and Kunio repros without asking for his input.


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:18 am 


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Pointman wrote:
Final Fight is by far the stricter game and it’s more about meticulously dealing with the crowd rather than flashy execution. AVP has a certain Devil May Cry style vibe to it with the many ways there are to deal damage in the game..


Yup yup, though I would say that I still chalk high level AVP up to crowd control and footsies rather than pure execution. Aggressively rushing down waves with maximum style (and not letting it embarrassingly explode in your face) requires a similar level of enemy reading and spacing as something like Final Fight, since enemy waves are incredibly random and - while they aren't as threatening if you play "safe" or don't mind taking a hit here and there - can easily counter almost everything you can do.

But yes, my point was that though Final Fight may require you to go deeper to clear it than AVP, AVP requires you to go just as deep in order to master it, and has just as much nuance and satisfaction to its spacing and rushdown at that level of play. And with a game featuring such immense room for creativity and depth in its movement mechanics alone, mastery is really what one should be aiming for.

bigbadboaz wrote:
As someone who never got into AvP: doesn't the animation detract somewhat from the overall quality of the game? There just aren't enough frames, and it comes off a bit herky-jerky vs. the older FF.


I have no idea what you're talking about. It's animated just as well as the rest of Capcom's heavy hitters: that is to say, excellently.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:26 pm 


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The AI in Final Fight LMAO, that's no AI, the game just reads your inputs and reacts perfectly on frame. So funny to move around against some enemies that keep perfect full range spacing due to this. AvsP has an actual semblance of AI where enemies don't read your inputs but have unpredictable patterns and strategy, like staying on a portion of the screen waiting for you to come in before laying the trap.

Pointman wrote:
Final Fight is by far the stricter game


It's far more limited and unforgiving for the wrong reasons, like unbalanced enemies that can wreck you on a single knockdown (Gados outranging your desperation moves or Rolento's hilarious throw range for example). You are so sluggish that you can't re-position easily and damage output is heavily skewed in favor of the CPU outside of infinites (which are completely unintentional, a fortunate mistake that makes the game less of a slog to play). It's challenging for what you cannot do.

Final Fight is great for a first game and a massive improvement over something like Double Dragon... but as a first game it has been vastly improved by everything that came afterwards.

Iconoclast wrote:
In games like AvP you have extremely powerful characters who are free to do anything - ultimately you can solve most encounters with the same basic approach.


Yeah, Schaefer has the same tools as Linn and approaches situations the same way... how to forget all that stellar air game Schaefer has. Not sure if this is a serious post or not. Other than the predators having similar playstyles, the archetypes in AvsP are as different as it gets, certainly much more different than Final Fight's one grappler and two standard characters.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:45 am 



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Hagane wrote:
The AI in Final Fight LMAO, that's no AI, the game just reads your inputs and reacts perfectly on frame. So funny to move around against some enemies that keep perfect full range spacing due to this. AvsP has an actual semblance of AI where enemies don't read your inputs but have unpredictable patterns and strategy, like staying on a portion of the screen waiting for you to come in before laying the trap.

It's far more limited and unforgiving for the wrong reasons, like unbalanced enemies that can wreck you on a single knockdown (Gados outranging your desperation moves or Rolento's hilarious throw range for example). You are so sluggish that you can't re-position easily and damage output is heavily skewed in favor of the CPU outside of infinites (which are completely unintentional, a fortunate mistake that makes the game less of a slog to play). It's challenging for what you cannot do.

Not quite true, except for the last wave pretty much anything in the game is reactable, the input-reading enemies are always fallible and being a beat 'em up prevents it from being completely braindead like the CPU in ST for example. There is high damage because it's always doable to avoid getting hit, this game isn't SoR2 Mania. Disagree about it being sluggish as well, the crowd control moves are very effective and the back jump is an excellent evation move. The game has its flaws but I'd say what it does well quite surpasses the flaws.

Hagane wrote:
Yeah, Schaefer has the same tools as Linn and approaches situations the same way... how to forget all that stellar air game Schaefer has. Not sure if this is a serious post or not. Other than the predators having similar playstyles, the archetypes in AvsP are as different as it gets, certainly much more different than Final Fight's one grappler and two standard characters.

He means that even if the characters have a varied moveset, a couple of the most effective moves will suffice most of the time (in Linn's case you can pretty much clear the game just using the gun). As for character variety, the predators are extremely similar while Schaefer is almost like a castrated predator rather than a much different character, I guess Linn is unique enough if mainly for the air throw gimmick. Finally, fighting mooks in an unoptimal way just because it looks cool isn't that much different than unoptimal fighting in Final Fight for score lol.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:16 am 


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Vludi wrote:
he means that even if the characters have a varied moveset, a couple of the most effective moves will suffice most of the time


I still can't help but disagree with this entirely.

Even on an efficient survival clear, there's no real surefire tactics*. Seemingly safe pokes, dive attacks, and lunges on the predator warriors can get out prioritized by certain "meaty" waves, etc. it might not be as ridiculously punishing as FF, but it still has a very strong spacing and smart moveset design. I booted it up a few times the other day to check and - yeah - the waves and enemy patterns do require pretty different strategies. I've played games where there's a "god tactic", and AVP definitely isn't one of them.

Also feel that calling Schaefer a neutered predator is a massive stretch.


*I have not tried simply running away and shooting with Linn (I don't player as her that much). Though I feel a tactic like that - even if it is viable - is getting booted from this discussion on common sense grounds.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:51 am 


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Vludi wrote:
Not quite true, except for the last wave pretty much anything in the game is reactable, the input-reading enemies are always fallible and being a beat 'em up prevents it from being completely braindead like the CPU in ST for example. There is high damage because it's always doable to avoid getting hit, this game isn't SoR2 Mania. Disagree about it being sluggish as well, the crowd control moves are very effective and the back jump is an excellent evation move. The game has its flaws but I'd say what it does well quite surpasses the flaws.


You can't react zero frame boss moves, you have to predict/memo them, and you can't deny the outrange bit. You must avoid getting in that situation at all costs or you are dead, due to the lack of defensive and mobility options. And the input reading enemies comment is just a laugh at the claim that FF has any kind of advanced or interesting AI when it's full of input reads.

With high damage I mean the enemies do high damage but you don't. If you don't use infinites some enemies take forever to kill, and enemies can wreck you in seconds. Again, difficulty through limitations.

It is sluggish, you have no runs, dashes or any other option besides walking and backjumping all day cause walking is super slow.

Hagane wrote:
Yeah, Schaefer has the same tools as Linn and approaches situations the same way... how to forget all that stellar air game Schaefer has. Not sure if this is a serious post or not. Other than the predators having similar playstyles, the archetypes in AvsP are as different as it gets, certainly much more different than Final Fight's one grappler and two standard characters.

He means that even if the characters have a varied moveset, a couple of the most effective moves will suffice most of the time (in Linn's case you can pretty much clear the game just using the gun). As for character variety, the predators are extremely similar while Schaefer is almost like a castrated predator rather than a much different character, I guess Linn is unique enough if mainly for the air throw gimmick. Finally, fighting mooks in an unoptimal way just because it looks cool isn't that much different than unoptimal fighting in Final Fight for score lol.[/quote]

Schaefer plays extremely differently to the Predators. The tackle complements his throw game perfectly well to safely get to SPD range, and do crowd control with grab invincibility. With him you want to be close at all times, and his slide also helps this. His damage output is much higher than everyone else and his range is also much better, with the ability to use pipes and not losing them.

Completely different to the predators that use the airdash to constantly change positions, and Linn who plays almost entirely an air based game, or can also do great ground crowd control with soukeiha. You can use the gun reload bug if you want, but it's just that, a bug, and fortunately you have myriads of different approaches of your choice with any given character. Much better than having a grappler and two standard guys that differ mostly in that one is objectively better because he can stop Belger's projectiles and does more damage.

Finally, having tons of options and approaches is not suboptimal, it's having a richly designed game and not a limited memorizer that restricts any kind of freedom due to how limited and sluggish it is.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:07 am 


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Hagane wrote:
It is sluggish, you have no runs, dashes or any other option besides walking and backjumping all day cause walking is super slow.


Yah, putting aside the tactical debate, gamefeel is one of my big no-go's for FF. It just doesn't feel that fun to move around in IMO. The enemies might be sneaky (for the right or wrong reasons), but I find myself getting bored of my own avatar.

To compare, Armored Warriors might not have the rich moveset design of AVP, but dayum does it simply feel good to move around in right off the bat.

Matter of preference, I suppose. I am notoriously intolerant of games with slow movespeeds (Raiden III, Dimahoo as Solobang/grimalkin, Dracula XX, etc.)
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:29 am 


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Armored Warriors actually might be even richer in amount of options than any other Capcom beat'em up just due to how the mech customization system works. Individual arm parts have fewer specials than an AvsP character, but you have many of them, very different among each other, legs radically alter not only your mobility but your dash/jump attacks, and the weapons are also completely different from each other and they work in a much more organic and complementary way than the weapons of other Capcom games, being not just a way to safely attack from afar but something you want to integrate in your melee combat to get in/immobilize/setup for OTGs etc. The variety and number of possibilities is great.

Everything else about the game is top notch too, yes, the mobility feels unique to anything else and changes so much depending on the part used, but is always fast and fluid, and the presentation/music is unparalleled. Easy top 3 for me.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:02 am 



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Hagane wrote:
And the input reading enemies comment is just a laugh at the claim that FF has any kind of advanced or interesting AI when it's full of input reads.

Pretty much all beat 'em ups have some sort of input reading as they rely on the interaction between you and the enemies, otherwise it'd be really boring if the enemies just hit the air randomly all the time, it's not even bad in FF compared to stuff like some SoR games in harder difficulties. Besides saying that all enemies behave the same in FF just because there is some input reading is wrong.
Hagane wrote:
With high damage I mean the enemies do high damage but you don't. If you don't use infinites some enemies take forever to kill, and enemies can wreck you in seconds. Again, difficulty through limitations.

Only Guy has low damage, Cody damage is good and Haggar is actually a beast.
Hagane wrote:
It is sluggish, you have no runs, dashes or any other option besides walking and backjumping all day cause walking is super slow.

I'm against the idea that run/dashes immediately equate a more fluid/faster game, Captain Commando despite having it is a lot more sluggish than Final Fight because they removed extremely useful moves like cancel-throw and the fast back-jump (the back jump in CapCom is useless and hard to pull-off) that were more useful to approach crowd, infinites are also easier to execute and more imperant than in Final Fight. I never felt like the walking in FF was slow either, hell walking as Haggar feels swifter than walking as Axel in SoR2 for example, let alone in relative terms with the enemies.
Hagane wrote:
Schaefer plays extremely differently to the Predators. The tackle complements his throw game perfectly well to safely get to SPD range, and do crowd control with grab invincibility. With him you want to be close at all times, and his slide also helps this. His damage output is much higher than everyone else and his range is also much better, with the ability to use pipes and not losing them.

The lack in mobility in Schaefer is why he's castrated, and I don't see him as a "grappler character" at all, he has somewhat better throws than the others but the throw boxes in the game are so small that it still feels like an anecdotal mechanic. Getting into a power-bomb chain is good and all but it's rare compared to how naturalized the grapples are in characters like Haggar or Max. As for damage output and range he's marginally better than Hunter's arsenal. As for Guy/Cody while fundamentally they aren't much different they still feel different in more than just damage, the mobility speed is quite noticeable, the immediate kicks of Guy are quite useful, the longer combos can stop bigger crowds at a time, the wall kick is a quite useful crowd control mechanic if handled well etc.
Hagane wrote:
Finally, having tons of options and approaches is not suboptimal, it's having a richly designed game and not a limited memorizer that restricts any kind of freedom due to how limited and sluggish it is.

Having options that are harder to execute than the most used ones and unneeded/unimportant in the long run isn't optimal in my book. And completely disagree about FF being a "memorizer", just because you have to learn the general idea of how enemies behave it doesn't make it a memorizer. If there is something I like about beat 'em ups is that while you obviously have to memorize stuff (like literally every game out there), there is always room for improvisation, and FF is no exception.
Squire Grooktook wrote:
Matter of preference, I suppose. I am notoriously intolerant of games with slow movespeeds (Raiden III, Dimahoo as Solobang/grimalkin, Dracula XX, etc.)

I guess that's a good way to put it, I never see certain mechanics of a game as a standalone but rather in relative way to the other aspects of the game .
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:33 am 


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Vludi wrote:
Having options that are harder to execute than the most used ones and unneeded/unimportant in the long run isn't optimal in my book.


That's one reason I put AVP above Devil May Cry ^_^

There's very little execution barrier to the cool stuff, like Predators air dash / jump trajectory changes after landing blows. It's just spacing it right and making sure it doesn't blow up in your face.

Likewise, they aren't unneeded, they actually expand your tactical options and give you the ability to approach more situations in a faster and more deadlier way. It's great.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:58 am 


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FF doesn’t need any fancy moves like running and air dashes because the game was designed around the move set and mobility it was given. The game window is tight enough to just allow for an enjoyable walking speed. Just look at my comparison to Final Fight Tough and how all that moveset is irrelevant if the game itself is boring. Also FF isn’t quite the memoriser it’s made out to be with some enemies who operate outside the box and do something unexpected once in a while but not enough to render the game random. All games need to be memorisers so that people can get good at them. The simplicity in it’s gameplay is it’s defining trait but it is tough to master. Kinda like Tetris.

Also I find the movement in Armored Warriors to be somewhat floaty which is especially jarring considering you are meant to be piloting huge mechs around the screen. I saw a replay the other day where pretty much the entire game was played with the grapple arm and the spamming of one move. Hardly a varied game. It’s fun though albeit messy.


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:07 am 


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Methodical, deliberate characters can be fun for me but there needs to be something else for me.

Like, Castlevania is a very deliberate, commitment oriented game that also has an emphasis on "footsies" in its more challenging boss fights, but it also has platforming and such mixing things up.

Or Ninja in the Ninja Warriors Again, who might seem slow but he has an interesting moveset that allows him to theoretically rocket around under the right circumstances and opportunities.

Regardless of whether it's designed around being painfully lethargic, a full game of just walk + punch needs to have a bit faster, more joyful handling to hold my interest. Just like a shmup with a low movespeed kinda makes me want to flip the table because moving and shooting is ultimately all you're doing, so both of those better be fucking snappy.

Pointman wrote:
so I find the movement in Armored Warriors to be somewhat floaty which is especially jarring considering you are meant to be piloting huge mechs around the screen.


For some odd reason, mecha = fast in a lot of video games. See also: zone of the enders, certain armored core games, etc.

I guess it's the influence of space opera type anime where mecha in space are essentially flashy humanoid fighter ships dog fighting eacother.

Anyway the movement is indeed what makes Armored Warriors fun and unique. You move fucking fast even without dash...but so do enemies, and like later Capcom brawlers there tends to be more of them onscreen at once. So what you have is a more manic experience where footsies are much more mobile. I like that a lot.

Pointman wrote:
I saw a replay the other day where pretty much the entire game was played with the grapple arm and the spamming of one move. Hardly a varied game. It’s fun though albeit messy.


I always thought the grapple arm was the worst weapon in the game, heh.

I think AW feels a bit more limited than AVP because you're stuck with 1-2 (3 with the sword) moves for every weapon you pick (though you can get like 2 more from your foot attachment too), whereas in AVP each character has a really interesting and fully defined moveset. You do get to swap them quite a bit for different situations, though.

Still, the weapon system is very interesting from the perspective that you can customize a lot of different routes and types of playthroughs for it. Think the hover legs are op? Go for a tread playthrough! Getting bored of the sword? Drill! Mix and match with different arms + legs and you have a lot of replay value. I also don't mind that there are some potentially cheesy options since -> cheesy clear -> more interesting optional routes and set ups = fine way of balancing difficulty imo.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:27 am 


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Again it comes down to subjectivity, it all depends on what you like. FF suits me as I like the simplicity of it compared to another game with bogged down mechanics. It’s the reason why I find Battle Garegga more intimidating than say Under Defeat, it’s mechanics are too complicated to be fun. AVP is a fun game but in a different way, the gameplay allows for increased mobility and mixups. Adding that moveset to FF would only mire the game. It is designed around it’s perceived sluggishness.

I guess you could argue that the reason games like Zone of the Enders is fast is because the game is played in the air where mobility is faster. Armored Warriors is ground based which might allude to the disconnect I feel.


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:10 am 



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Posts: 188
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Haggar's piledriver, the damage it does is based on the enemy's remaining health: cuts it in half each time. Perfect for ending bosses quickly. It's a game changer.

Often you can chain a bunch of them together too.

Chain them? As in catch the victim before he's done falling from the first driver and repeat?

lmao no obviously not, chain as in the piledriver grants you iframes so you can just spam and he'll immediately keep piledriving whoevers next in line in the herd. understanding haggars iframes is the key to 1ccing with him.


Chain is the wrong word. I mean, when there's only one guy on the screen, I just find it to be a safe strategy to follow up a pile driver with another pile driver. Dunno why. Maybe it's something about the way I grab or maybe it's just not as consistent as I remember.


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:27 am 


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[quote="Hagane"]

With high damage I mean the enemies do high damage but you don't. If you don't use infinites some enemies take forever to kill, and enemies can wreck you in seconds. Again, difficulty through limitations.[quote]

This is what I'm struggling with. Not the damage I dish - Cody is about average and Haggar can be a beast, but one mistake after the first two rounds can wipe off over half an energy bar in the blink of an eye. It doesn't encourage experimentation in the slightest.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:46 am 


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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZgwI8Lr7oM
Just missed 1CCing The Punisher, getting all the way to Kingpin & needed to continue. Just watched someone else's replay & actually you CAN lift the Kingpin off the floor after a knockdown. Might try that next time.

Some things I find useful beside the punch-punch-throw combo (holding up or down to get that throw finisher) are the rolling kick & the weapon toss from a jump (best with the battle axe or Bizen Osafune sword).

The Mega Drive version doesn't get it right at all. I can't say why Capcom went with Sculptured Software. Control feels way off, & the PPT combo is gone. Some of the wreckable backgrounds & a few enemy types were removed. This port is an MD Double Dragon II level of bad- most likely that's why Capcom Japan didn't release it. What they should've done is to team up with Sega & have Final Fight CD's developers work on it.
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