shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:42 am View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Repro games
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:22 pm 



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 7036
Location: Bedford, UK
Hi all,

I've noticed from time to time on ebay there are a few auctions for games for reproduction games. Usually they are games translated into English because the game did not launch in the West. The better auctions come with a fancy looking box with flashy artwork, instructions and leaflets. Its just like the 90's again. So what goes into these cartridges? Is it an Eprom, is the goods on the inside as good as the outside?

I'd like to think these repro carts with boxes and whatever are exclusive to games that were not released so that gives you a fighting chance of spotting a fake game. But whats to stop these people making a fake copy of an expensive title and selling full price?

Image

Thats some pretty good artwork for a repro.
_________________
This industry has become 2 dimensional as it transcended into a 3D world.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:23 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 4372
Location: Denmarku
neorichieb1971 wrote:
But whats to stop these people making a fake copy of an expensive title and selling full price?

But that's exactly what these are.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:35 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2007
Posts: 11084
Location: COLONY
Ah, counterfeiters. The only people in nerdcore I'd literally murder given a clean shot.

I would hate to get into MD collecting nowadays.

I'd hate to get into any collecting nowadays, but MD in particular with its sealed carts and minimal packaging. Sounds like a recipe for AES Electric Shitshow Boogaloo Pt II Starring DavidG: Yo Doodz, I Found Deez Eliminate Downs In My Storage Unit... IN CANADA

I know there's some well-known scam artists in the PCE-CD arena too, but that's unfortunately to be expected with unprotected CD-ROMs.

Godspeed to honest chaps who just want to make clearly marked repros/reissues though. Those are cool. But now we are discussing honest men vs grasping liars!
_________________
Image
THE MIRAGE OF MIND Metal Black ST | THE MASSACRE Gun.Smoke ST [MUH YOUTOOB]
NON FICTION


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:39 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 6242
Location: Craig's
vade repro satanas
_________________
mycophobia wrote:
have tyou ever played dodponpatchi


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:49 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 3308
Location: the black gate
Sumez wrote:
But that's exactly what these are.

Correct. The game pictured will never exist under any circumstances, nor should it. This is not 1995.

That aside, people do, in fact, make fakes of US titles. EarthBound, etc. Pricegouging raises base prices to ridiculous levels, and then people start making repros for ever so slightly less, but never anywhere near the original low prices. It's all a giant racket, and it doesn't matter if any of these groups are actually cooperating to create it.
_________________
In 1989,The Great Wall was discoverd
In 1990,The Picket Fence was also discoverd


Last edited by Despatche on Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:51 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 01 May 2014
Posts: 2204
Location: Brooklyn NY
BIL wrote:
IN CANADA


Hey - that's where every pubescent boys imaginary girlfriends are from.
_________________
"Adopt the pace of nature: her secret is patience."


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:54 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2007
Posts: 11084
Location: COLONY
DavidG

David G

David... GLASS?!

AES Aero Fighters 3 victims = JAN BURADY Image
_________________
Image
THE MIRAGE OF MIND Metal Black ST | THE MASSACRE Gun.Smoke ST [MUH YOUTOOB]
NON FICTION


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:13 am 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 13871
Location: Chicago
neorichieb1971 wrote:
But whats to stop these people making a fake copy of an expensive title and selling full price?


There are tons of games that were released, but are now sought after / pricey that have been reproduced. Basically any system w/o copy protection has been bootlegged to fuck. PC-Engine, MegaDrive, PC-Engine, etc.
_________________
RegalSin wrote:
New PowerPuff Girls. They all have evil pornstart eyelashes.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:23 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 2219
BIL wrote:
Godspeed to honest chaps who just want to make clearly marked repros/reissues though. Those are cool. But now we are discussing honest men vs grasping liars!


Agreed. Honest sellers who want to give non-collectors a chance to affordably get & play the game deserve business. I'd say $50-70 is fair for a repro, but no higher. The box should be styled differently to avoid confusion with the original. Trying to sell a counterfeit that looks like the real thing, and then asking $200+ is major bastardy.

Look at Taromaru for Saturn. The prices on that have gotten even more MAD, from several hundred used to even a few thousand if it's sealed. One "brand new" copy is going for $4,307.01- no joke, search on eBay & it's there. Don't know what that seller is smoking BTW. Pre-owneds of that are $700+. Not a bad game, but worth much less than it's going for. A good target for a repro.
_________________
Kinect? KIN NOT.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:43 am 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 4372
Location: Denmarku
How is selling software that you have absolutely no right to reproduce and distribute "honest" or "fair"?

If you want a pirated game, go to whatever rom sites a google search takes you to, no reason to pay software pirates for software pirating.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:59 am 


User avatar

Joined: 04 May 2016
Posts: 71
Location: BC, Canada
Non collectors can play the game using Everdrives etc. Paying $$ for a bootleg box/manual is for nothing more than masturbating to things on shelves.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:07 am 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 6242
Location: Craig's
They should sell blank flashable identical yet with obvious watermak repros.

That, would be all legal and safe, but maybe more expensive?
_________________
mycophobia wrote:
have tyou ever played dodponpatchi


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:52 am 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 4372
Location: Denmarku
I'd actually approve of that. Technically there's still issues with the artwork etc. of course, but it sounds a lot more honest to me. Sell the craftmanship, not the game that you had nothing to do with.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:08 am 



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 7036
Location: Bedford, UK
Is it known that the Nintendo branded chips inside can be perfectly duplicated? I have a Snow Bros MD repro that I bought just to see what I would get and its painfully obvious by the manual, by the chip inside and the inlay cover thats its fake. I haven't even plugged the cart in for fear of damaging my Genesis. But these types of fakes usually come from Malaysia, Russia Federation or China. The one posted above does not, it comes from the United States of America. Its obvious that the creator of that package has a lot more counterfeit experience to get that quality grade of colours on the box.


So here are a few auctions i'm watching, can you please tell me if its fake or legit?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KIRBYS-AVALACHE-SUPER-NINTENDO-GAME-SNES-COMPLETE-IN-BOX-NEAR-MINT-CONDITION/122116709420?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GREAT-CIRCUS-MYSTERY-STARRING-MICKEY-MINNIE-SUPER-NINTENDO-SNES-NM-COMPLETE-BOX/232661847463?epid=4689&hash=item362bba0da7:g:P3QAAOSwImRagAdL

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sega-Genesis-Gunstar-Heroes-In-Box-w-manual/142711062795?hash=item213a3e010b:g:MYQAAOSwT-9akZ~U


Since I am not well rehearsed in ways to play roms, i'm assuming you play them via this Everdrive cartridge? Is it easy to operate?
_________________
This industry has become 2 dimensional as it transcended into a 3D world.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:33 am 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 4372
Location: Denmarku
There's no way a repro/bootleg will ever be able to perfectly replicate the original PCBs to the point where you can't tell the difference.
I guess it would be technically possible, but it would take excessive effort, and be more expensive that what's worth.

I couldn't tell you 100% whether the linked auctions are legit, but they sure look it and I don't really see why they wouldn't be. It's much easier to discern when you have the paper in your hands and are able to open up the cartridge.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:33 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 907
I naively hadn't realised that the counterfeiting was a growing issue.
I remember some chap over at "N64 for ever" starting a project, cataloguing/photographing all N64 boards, as an aid to detecting counterfeits.

Its a sad state of affairs.
_________________
Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:29 pm 



Joined: 04 Nov 2013
Posts: 672
Location: Washington
neorichieb1971 wrote:
Is it known that the Nintendo branded chips inside can be perfectly duplicated?


Nope, the fakes you see have PCB and chips that are very easy to identify in every bootleg/"repro" I've ever seen. Honestly you don't even need to open them to know they are fakes if you know what you are looking at. You have 2 main flavors of fakes, 1-offs made by people in a garage, and the Ali express garbage that looks laughably fake. Most of the 1-offs made use real boards from donor games and have eproms inside, which is very obvious.

The 3rd type of fake is actually a bootleg that was made back during the lifespan of the system, these are actually pretty rare to find and were mostly made for common popular games, not rare collector shit that people care about now.
_________________
1CC List with videos | Scores on RestartSyndrome.com


Last edited by pegboy on Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:38 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Canada
I remember there were some PCE-CD bootleg repros floating around a few years ago. I think Sapphire was one of the biggest targets. This shit is going to keep happening, I guess the best you could do is report it to eBay and see if they notice or care. I doubt they would, though. Technically, even those ###-in-1 JAMMA compatibles aren't allowed. https://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/re ... rfeit.html


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:55 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 3086
Location: Québec City
Ebay doesn't care sadly :( They even have a "reproduction cart" official section on the store now (!) which is dodgy since many of those repros aren't even labeled as repros.

(I think that even if you label your repro, it is illegal to sell it though, as well as use the original cover art. I'm personally not too hung up on labeled repros, but people who are actually have a point. I'm not too interested in repros anyway, since we have flashcarts and cd-drive hardware emulation now)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:57 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Sep 2013
Posts: 2784
Location: Portugal
FinalBaton wrote:
Ebay doesn't care sadly :( They even have a "reproduction cart" official section on the store now (!)

Wut.
_________________
ChurchOfSolipsism wrote:
I'll make sure I'll download it illegally one day...


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:08 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 3086
Location: Québec City
Upon re-checking, it is for reproduction game manuals and boxes only, my bad. (still illegal doe. and shows that they don't care)

https://www.ebay.com/b/Reproduction-Vid ... n_42930898


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:40 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 2219
FinalBaton wrote:
I'm not too interested in repros anyway, since we have flashcarts and cd-drive hardware emulation now)


This exactly. I guess the CD drive hardware emulation cuts down load times, like the difference in playing PSP games from the UMD vs. playing from the memory stick (PSN versions, or games dumped from the UMD).
_________________
Kinect? KIN NOT.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:55 am 


User avatar

Joined: 29 Aug 2010
Posts: 629
Location: Fairfax, VA
Udderdude wrote:
This shit is going to keep happening, I guess the best you could do is report it to eBay and see if they notice or care. I doubt they would, though.


Spoiler: They don't. (Even though it's clearly against their rules.)
_________________
http://www.twitch.tv/amackert | http://www.youtube.com/austinmackert


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:30 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2007
Posts: 11084
Location: COLONY
Sumez wrote:
How is selling software that you have absolutely no right to reproduce and distribute "honest" or "fair"?


Well, honest in the sense that they're explicit about what they're selling you. :wink: I don't mind clearly identifiable repros, advertised as such. Even if I did, though, I'd still regard their makers more charitably than outright counterfeiters. One's offering a dubious but openly-identified service, the other is cancer and should be burnt out likewise. It's about intent to deceive.

By "clearly identifiable" I don't mean plastered with BOOTLEG, just an inconspicuous but unambiguous identifying mark on all relevant materials, so I know I'm not looking at genuine old stuff from back in the day.

As far as IPs go, yeah, ideally they should be licensed... IIRC, the recent Gourmet Sentai (SFC) repro meets both conditions. I'm still not interested, because I enjoy collecting old stuff from BITD and would just flashcart the games otherwise, but I don't see the harm there.
_________________
Image
THE MIRAGE OF MIND Metal Black ST | THE MASSACRE Gun.Smoke ST [MUH YOUTOOB]
NON FICTION


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:05 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 1670
Location: Germany, Berlin
I can see kind of both sides of the argument. Soem years ago Battlesmurf put together with some others a repro of RECCA for the US NES. Now, I would say that it was more as a service to both a decent title and making it available in a market that it was not available for (it was a Japan exclusive as I recall) and also that some people just cannot afford the top dollar prices of the original.

As a collector I want to know what edition we are talking about and I want to know a 100% if it's a repro or the original. I can tell you that with some titles there's a lot of worry that you've bought a counterfeit but paid the rate of the original and for this it's a lucrative a market for the dodgy operator and a mither for collectors.

It has always been an issue though with people trying to rip others off but it has become more widespread. Still, if they mark it as being a repro I don't really see what the issue is provided that they do a good job and don't ask for silly cash for a copy.

And just to make a note: there are people out there who actually collect counterfeits as a sort of curiousity by themselves.

Quote:
So what goes into these cartridges? Is it an Eprom, is the goods on the inside as good as the outside?

A decent repro will have some kind of GAL/PROM but that would be high-end. The proverbial 'back-street operator' will use EPROMs and what's more you have no idea how old the EPROM will be or how the integrity of the Image written to the chip will be once written. As such, you want to know exactly how it was put together. Labels are easy for anyone these days to have produced and to a high standard. Manuals require more effort to manufacture a convincingly good faximile of the original and some take the opportunity to make their own design and take on the original in some way or other. Boxes are easier to produce than manuals. But it is still a question of numbers: just how many they intend to sell and how many sell kind of dictates their methods and the options open to them unless of course they happen to have access to a printers, fab, etc. that is :)

Quote:
There's no way a repro/bootleg will ever be able to perfectly replicate the original PCBs to the point where you can't tell the difference.
I guess it would be technically possible, but it would take excessive effort, and be more expensive that what's worth.


That's showing some fetishistic tendencies there I'm afraid :D For the PCB, it may be that the quality can be matched and improved as fabrication processes have improved over the interim of the 80s to today. It only matters to people obsessed with minutae I would suppose. I am interested to know chip numbers and such like but I have a mind for that sort of thing. But it doesn't detract from the 'product' so to speak. You are not speaking as an Engineer or technical person relying on such statements without some understanding of the technology and manufacture. There are very few processes that cannot be replicated and indeed actioned and if anything we can do a lot more these days than we could 20+ years ago.
_________________
More Bromances = safer people


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:34 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2016
Posts: 884
It's silly to believe that there will not be high quality fake PCB's. There was already a Stadium Events PCB that was scary close. Just a little more work and the right numbers on the roms would have made that one "pass" the eye test.

There's a major shake up coming because there's money to be made.

At some point, the expensive games will be reproduced and someone will make a fortune.

Big rarities like Stadium Events get too much attention. If a person masters the technique of a great fake, the smartest thing to do would be to target one publisher (such as NES Taito PCB's) and hit the upper and midrange tier of the market hard--with legit looking PCB's. If that goes down, it will take us a long time to realize there are too many of the games in the wild or catch a small flaw in the fakes.

The motivation is there. Somebody out there will eventually do it.
_________________
We apologize for the inconvenience


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:55 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 1670
Location: Germany, Berlin
I agree, orange808.

It is kind of relevant but I always think of the talented art counterfeiters such as Greenhalgh:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaun_Greenhalgh

If you imagine the exclusivety of the galleries and art auctioned and traded you kind of get an inkling of just how much cash is tied up in these things.
Imagine these master artists who can replice perfectly original art pieces.
And whilst we're on the topic I can recommend two films on the counterfeiting of money:

To Live and Die in LA
Die Faelscher

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Live_a ... L.A._(film)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Count ... (2007_film)

There is a good doc on Youtube about counterfeiting cash in South America that's worth seeing too. It is indeed a fascinating topic that gets people into a philosophical frame of mind often. What is the original worth?
_________________
More Bromances = safer people


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:04 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 4372
Location: Denmarku
You guys are making me anxious about the cart-only Recca I have coming in.

(not to mention even opening up a Famicom cartridge shell is always a daunting affair)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:44 pm 



Joined: 04 Nov 2013
Posts: 672
Location: Washington
orange808 wrote:
It's silly to believe that there will not be high quality fake PCB's. There was already a Stadium Events PCB that was scary close. Just a little more work and the right numbers on the roms would have made that one "pass" the eye test.

There's a major shake up coming because there's money to be made.

At some point, the expensive games will be reproduced and someone will make a fortune.

Big rarities like Stadium Events get too much attention. If a person masters the technique of a great fake, the smartest thing to do would be to target one publisher (such as NES Taito PCB's) and hit the upper and midrange tier of the market hard--with legit looking PCB's. If that goes down, it will take us a long time to realize there are too many of the games in the wild or catch a small flaw in the fakes.

The motivation is there. Somebody out there will eventually do it.


I don't believe there has ever been a convincing Stadium Events fake. What are you referring to? I think it would only be convincing to someone who doesn't know what they are looking at.
_________________
1CC List with videos | Scores on RestartSyndrome.com


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Repro games
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:50 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1501
Location: borders
the fakes have been already a thing in the neo scene for a long time . lots of "big dog" collectors with fake metal slugs etc in their collections that they are too embarassed to admit to paying for.. a lot have admitted to it too :oops:
_________________
SLAG OFF KETSUI I SLAG OFF YOR MUM
https://soundcloud.com/vapor-teh-apparition
https://soundcloud.com/don-pachi-aka-bling-laden


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group