Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Squire Grooktook]

Camera should pretty much never let a player character move past the center of the screen, unless they're moving toward a wall where the camera won't be scrolling anymore anyway. Anything else is mortal sin.

Follow the Ninja Gaiden bible of camera salvation.

Y location on camera should not move at all if you aren't in a section where you are scrolling up and down constantly (ie Metroid vertical tunnels). If you have a "big room" area with frequent vertical ascension, I think it's best to lock it for most of the time until the player character reaches a point where they'll be able to actually ascend/descend.

[Sumez]

In other news, I've been playing the first NES G.I. Joe game, developed by the venerable KID. It's kind of a mix between action-platformer and run 'n gun, pretty fun, even if it doesn't do either one as good as an entry that focuses on being just one of them. Lots of bosses, which I like. The maze stages take some getting used to and figuring out the best path, but I haven't found them annoying, at least not yet.

I only managed to get my hands on the second one (Atlantis Factor) - these games were only released in US, so while it's my impression that they are fairly well recognized in USA, the games could be considered hidden gems here in Europe, where G.I. Joe was never a big thing in the first place. Unfortunately it's really complicated to buy stuff from USA lately due to a combination of ridiculously high shipping costs and extra custom fees, so even those are still really cheap games, getting one of them over here costs way more than the game itself.

I heard the first one is the better game though. but I do like Atlantis Factor. It's a unique game with a lot of fun ideas and several very obvious flaws. I like its ambitions, and even though it's no Kickmaster, I think it's worth playing. My biggest issue is the really stupid boss fights, and having to level up each character individually.

[Sumez]

Camera should pretty never let a player character move past the center of the screen, unless they're moving toward a wall where the camera won't be scrolling anymore anyway. Anything else is mortal sin.

Follow the Ninja Gaiden bible of camera salvation.

Y location on camera should not move if you aren't in a section where you are scrolling up and down constantly (ie Metroid tunnels).

Coincidentally, Metroid allows you to move past the center of the screen in all four directions... Ninja Gaiden just keeps you locked in a center. If it had large open areas that allowed you to scroll in all directions, it would be as bad as Odallus

[BIL]

I've linked that camera article here in the past, good to see it again! It's a very under-discussed subject in 2D action, from my experience. I've quite a bit to say re: my ideal setup, but I'm half out the door so will check back later.

Coincidentally I tried out Super Turrican (SFC) for the first time over the weekend, and yeah - I was enjoying the hybrid of run/gun and "collect under pressure," but the shoddy camera tracking lets it all down. In a fast-paced game where I'm constantly scrolling along all axes, while dealing with threats from all sides, I don't want to wait on a laggy camera. And I really don't want to be near the screen edge while I'm moving. Oof, exhausting. Back to the test folder for now.

I did really like it otherwise though - only passingly familiar with the series, but thought this one nailed a good balance of linearity to nooks and crannies.

[Ghegs]

In other news, I've been playing the first NES G.I. Joe game, developed by the venerable KID. It's kind of a mix between action-platformer and run 'n gun, pretty fun, even if it doesn't do either one as good as an entry that focuses on being just one of them. Lots of bosses, which I like. The maze stages take some getting used to and figuring out the best path, but I haven't found them annoying, at least not yet.

I only managed to get my hands on the second one (Atlantis Factor) - these games were only released in US, so while it's my impression that they are fairly well recognized in USA, the games could be considered hidden gems here in Europe, where G.I. Joe was never a big thing in the first place. Unfortunately it's really complicated to buy stuff from USA lately due to a combination of ridiculously high shipping costs and extra custom fees, so even those are still really cheap games, getting one of them over here costs way more than the game itself.

I heard the first one is the better game though. but I do like Atlantis Factor. It's a unique game with a lot of fun ideas and several very obvious flaws. I like its ambitions, and even though it's no Kickmaster, I think it's worth playing. My biggest issue is the really stupid boss fights, and having to level up each character individually.

Yeah, acquiring the games (I have them both CIB) was a bit of a hassle. Whenever there was one on eBay for a reasonable price, the seller wouldn't either wouldn't ship overseas or charged absolutely ridiculous amounts for it. In the end, perseverance prevailed.

I have no nostalgic feelings for the franchise, but a fun game is a fun game. I actually like having to level up the characters individually, though a bit more in concept than in execution. Having to change character just to pick up a power-up isn't terribly interesting, and most of the characters seem to have the exact same firing pattern when fully powered up. Would've been cool if there was more variance there. Haven't played Atlantic Factor much yet, it's on the to-do list.

[BIL]

Catching up on the last half-page:

In other news, I've been playing the first NES G.I. Joe game, developed by the venerable KID. It's kind of a mix between action-platformer and run 'n gun, pretty fun, even if it doesn't do either one as good as an entry that focuses on being just one of them. Lots of bosses, which I like. The maze stages take some getting used to and figuring out the best path, but I haven't found them annoying, at least not yet.

KID is venerable O_o? are they well-liked on here?

They are well-regarded, yes, if primarily for Recca (and even then, I'm not sure how many credit that game to them, rather than a vaguer Yagawa & co). That plus Kick Master, Max Warrior and Burai Fighter is a pretty decent contribution to NES/FC action gaming.

Haven't played any of their NES exclusives besides KM, myself. I wish they weren't so elusive for an FC-only, CIB-only, Europe-based guy like me. I'd even like to give Low G Man a go, just to see if it's the catastrophe everyone says.

Unfortunately it's really complicated to buy stuff from USA lately due to a combination of ridiculously high shipping costs and extra custom fees, so even those are still really cheap games, getting one of them over here costs way more than the game itself.

Yeah, acquiring the games (I have them both CIB) was a bit of a hassle. Whenever there was one on eBay for a reasonable price, the seller wouldn't either wouldn't ship overseas or charged absolutely ridiculous amounts for it. In the end, perseverance prevailed.

Commiserations, having moved to Europe relatively recently myself. 3;

[FinalBaton]

From what I played, Low-G Man was actually fun. SUPER quirky game though. lots of little flaws but still good fun. Finishing off enemies by down thrusting a trident through their skull is something I feel you will find satisfying BIL :3 I made it to level 5 so far and enjoyed it. I think Kev as more experience with the game, maybe he can give his input on it again

[kitten]

Games that intentionally go for that aesthetic (like Hotline Miami) can get away with it, but otherwise it's just a misunderstanding of why you'd even go for the "lo-fi" feel to begin with. The keyword here is awareness of what you're even trying to achieve.

i think something like hotline miami is visually fine because it goes for its own unique look and pretty much says "to hell with restrictions" on everything but the resolution of the pixels that compose the art. it's when games pick and choose just a couple of restrictions and then overwrite basically everything else that i feel they completely lose track of what they're doing. the odallus guy may have put some thought into it, but his game is an ugly mess and the egregious parallax is genuinely nauseating.

i'm really not a terribly big fan of his spritework, either. it has some really bizarre proportions - i can't stop staring at the protagonists' hilariously small calves and feet attached those hulking thighs and upper body, his run animation is outright silly-looking. the use of color in the sprites is about as bad as the background color choices, too. does that weird, amateurish thing of making lots of large sprites, but using 3 similar colors on them for shading and detail instead of creating a contrast. generally doesn't work black into them, either, which feels extra weird for how large they are and how easily that could add detail or outlining.

odallus feels like it wants to be an sfc (or later) game in every way except for the palette. it looks super ugly, to me. i honestly think that his upcoming game, blazing chrome, actually looks kind of decent (to strictly clarify: visually ). too much grey and red (is every level seriously going to look like that? the latest teaser seems to suggest so), but leagues better than his previous stuff. imho the guy cannot use restrictions nearly as cleverly as something good-looking like shovel knight and is better off going completely outside of them.

Here's a nice in-depth article on the subject - one of the surprising few.

that article rules and i often link it to people, too. extremely handy, great visual representations. imho, there should be a compilation of gifs for each game that showcase how its camera system works for people to examine - that would be an excellent resource.

They are well-regarded, yes, if primarily for Recca (and even then, I'm not sure how many credit that game to them, rather than a vaguer Yagawa & co). That plus Kick Master, Max Warrior and Burai Fighter is a pretty decent contribution to NES/FC action gaming.

Haven't played any of their NES exclusives besides KM, myself. I wish they weren't so elusive for an FC-only, CIB-only, Europe-based guy like me. I'd even like to give Low G Man a go, just to see if it's the catastrophe everyone says.

i generally consider recca sort-of "post-KID," honestly. i don't care at all for burai fighter (i've beaten it on nes and jp gb - did you know the jp gb version, specifically, has an exclusive, different final boss?) and feel like max warrior is honestly really neat, but a bit too shoddy to be good (did a no miss of loop 1 on it just recently). they have so many nes/famicom games, but i always felt like they were a 2nd-tier designer and too far behind the greats. i'm honestly pretty fond of their stuff, seriously, i just think it's kinda mediocre, but in a pleasantly offbeat way.

you might enjoy low g man if you can get past the choppy-as-hell scrolling. it's weird-as-hell in that affably, distinctly KID way. very strange mechanics, but they are aware of what they're doing with little hints of cleverness. one of the reasons i don't much care for burai fighter is because it's frankly one of their plainer games, and i feel like they handle it pretty poorly - i put low g man distinctly above it for its creativity and bits of depth. i've never gone past the first loop (which i beat), on this one, but meant to for quite a while. gotta get that coveted ken lobb message!

[Shoryukev]

I played Low-G Man a lot as a kid but never got super good at it or anything. Your description of it is pretty accurate, quirky is the same word I'd use lol. The scrolling is indeed very choppy. It's worthwhile to pickup and play every once in awhile for the downward thrust feature alone though. The sound it makes and the animation make it an extremely satisying attack! We need a GIF of that lol

[BIL]

You know me too well Baton, Klatrymadon's post about the skull-skewering coup de grace over in the main forum is exactly what piqued my interest.

i generally consider recca sort-of "post-KID," honestly. i don't care at all for burai fighter (i've beaten it on nes and jp gb - did you know the jp gb version, specifically, has an exclusive, different final boss?) and feel like max warrior is honestly really neat, but a bit too shoddy to be good (did a no miss of loop 1 on it just recently). they have so many nes/famicom games, but i always felt like they were a 2nd-tier designer and too far behind the greats. i'm honestly pretty fond of their stuff, seriously, i just think it's kinda mediocre, but in a pleasantly offbeat way.

I'm not sure what qualifies Recca as "post" exactly... was there some radical personnel change? I notice a lot of technical, artistic and design similarities between it and Burai/Max Warrior, the aggressive "weaponised bomb" ethos the most obvious.

I put off trying Max Warrior for years assuming the isometric viewpoint and platforming elements might be an issue, and was genuinely surprised at how tightly it all handled. I've no-missed its first loop as well, zero complaints with regards to its level design. Has a killer original mechanic in its somersault bomb, too, and a relentless pace. Wouldn't call it shoddy in the least.

Burai is relatively traditional in one sense (it's a shooter, you shoot stuff), but the combination of Forgotten Worlds strafing, Image Fight wallmaku and Bosconian seek/destroy with YGW bombing is pretty fun for a genre fan, and like MW it's formally tight with a fast pace. As far as FC shooting goes, I regard both of these as middle ground between workhorse staples like Gradius & Star Force and hardware-thrashing showpieces like Recca & Battle Formula. No idea how the rest of their catalogue plays but these three are sound.

You're talking about the FC version of MW, right? I've no idea what Ken Lobb may or may not have done to the NES versions of it or Burai, but his name has my eternal skepticism after Splatterhouse 3. TLDR: SH3JP plays a respectable Final Fight-alike, SH3US is beautiful, lobotomised junk. I don't even have the heart to make a shitty LOBBotomy pun there. 3;

[__SKYe]

Coincidentally I tried out Super Turrican (SFC) for the first time over the weekend, and yeah - I was enjoying the hybrid of run/gun and "collect under pressure," but the shoddy camera tracking lets it all down. In a fast-paced game where I'm constantly scrolling along all axes, while dealing with threats from all sides, I don't want to wait on a laggy camera. And I really don't want to be near the screen edge while I'm moving. Oof, exhausting. Back to the test folder for now.

I did really like it otherwise though - only passingly familiar with the series, but thought this one nailed a good balance of linearity to nooks and crannies.

I've played a few times before, but it was this exact issue that made me not pursue it further. It reminds me of the similarly bad camera of the Alien 3 game you talked about before.
Making the level scroll only when the player is at 2/3rds of the screen, isn't a very good idea, especially when some enemies appear quite fast, leaving you little time to react (if any).
The Mega Drive game has a similar camera, which is equally a shame, as otherwise the game is quite nice, but Super Turrican 2 (SFC) altered it, although not exactly for the better.
In ST2, the camera actually points ahead of you, so the player is actually behind the center of the screen (in the scolling direction), but what makes it kinda bad, is that it is still slow to adjust, when you change directions.
Not only does it ends up behaving like the first game (before the camera adjusts), but it is also disorienting, as the camera bounces from place to place.
Otherwise, they are all pretty cool games, and unique too I'd say, as you don't see many games with an emphasis on collecting stuff like this.

I played Low-G Man a lot as a kid but never got super good at it or anything. Your description of it is pretty accurate, quirky is the same word I'd use lol. The scrolling is indeed very choppy.

Yeah, it is indeed quite choppy. The very high jump is also kinda weird, but serviceable.
One thing that drives me nuts, is that power-ups dropped by the enemies go through the floor, so you have to catch them before they fall to the ground.
I wouldn't call a great game, rather, it is decent.

[BrianC]

As far as I know, Ken Lobb wasn't involved with Max Warrior/Isolated Warrior at all. From what I tried, the US/JP versions seemed to be pretty much the same. The Taxan US Kid games (and the two games that started at Taxan, GI Joe 2 and Kickmaster), were the ones where Ken Lobb was involved and were developed for the US first.

[kitten]

You know me too well Baton, Klatrymadon's post about the skull-skewering coup de grace over in the main forum is exactly what piqued my interest.

oh, hey, does klatrymadon post here? man i used to post on a forum with him years back. he sent me a PAL copy of r-type delta, one time, for me to rip. he's a swell dude

I'm not sure what qualifies Recca as "post" exactly... was there some radical personnel change? I notice a lot of technical, artistic and design similarities between it and Burai/Max Warrior, the aggressive "weaponised bomb" ethos the most obvious.

it just seemed where yagawa was fully let loose and in this weird time period right before he left. it's a personal consideration.

I've no-missed its first loop as well, zero complaints with regards to its level design. Has a killer original mechanic in its somersault bomb, too, and a relentless pace. Wouldn't call it shoddy in the least.

some of the hit detection seems shoddy - there are times where it seriously looks like i should hit something and don't, and vice versa. there's also the quirk in the bike stage where if you hold down + jump, you do a wheelie that allows you to freely damage enemies, but it's extremely easy to accidentally do this while you're trying to jump over a pit. some of the stage balancing seems to be around the idea you'll take a pretty decent number of hits, too, and the secrets for health restores are pretty obscure. i've always considered that kind of balancing to be very questionable. you don't need the health restores, but their placement almost suggests they're an intended part of the design, as they're generally spaced in spots to be when you'd most likely to need one.

jackie chan (fc) does this, too, but i feel like they're easier to find and don't mind it so much. i toughed through most of max warrior without knowing of any of the later-level ones (the only ones that would be useful), and then felt like they 'made sense,' afterward.

You're talking about the FC version of MW, right? I've no idea what Ken Lobb may or may not have done to the NES versions of it or Burai, but his name has my eternal skepticism after Splatterhouse 3. TLDR: SH3JP plays a respectable Final Fight-alike, SH3US is beautiful, lobotomised junk. I don't even have the heart to make a shitty LOBBotomy pun there. 3;

did you know it was apparently rumored that lobb created splatterhouse? i was just talking with rob strangman (who ran the west mansion fansite and is more or less verifiably splatterhouse fan numero uno) about this a week or so ago, actually! had no idea it was a rumor until he told me, we also got on the subject while bringing up ken lobb. he was apparently just on staff for 2 and 3's localization, i believe. rob's forum is actually where i used to talk to klatrymadon.

when i said i wanted to get that elusive ken lobb message, i was referring specifically to low g man (sorry if that seemed unclear!). his messages appear in a pretty wide number of games, but i don't believe they're in isolated warrior, since that wasn't published by taxan. it's really weird that they're still in kick master (since it wasn't published by taxan), iirc, and they're even in the jp game boy version of burai fighter. his sinister, reaching hand! dude seems to be a shitty, meddling, producer-type, but it's still fun to get a neat congratulations and get called a game master when you finish a 3rd loop of a game :p

edit: yeah, brian is pretty on top of things, here. i've never played atlantis factor, but it's been something i've long since meant to get around to.

[FinalBaton]

One thing that drives me nuts, is that power-ups dropped by the enemies go through the floor, so you have to catch them before they fall to the ground.

yes that drove me nuts also XD
First time I realized that was going on I was like "WTF?? YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING ME", lol. But I still kinda enjoy the game though, despite that and the choppy scrolling.
One thing I will say is that I like the main character sprite and the general use of colour in the game. and most of the music + SFX for that matter

[BIL]

oh, hey, does klatrymadon post here? man i used to post on a forum with him years back. he sent me a PAL copy of r-type delta, one time, for me to rip. he's a swell dude

Indeed, my longtime MetalBlackpatriot still pops in occasionally.

some of the hit detection seems shoddy - there are times where it seriously looks like i should hit something and don't, and vice versa. there's also the quirk in the bike stage where if you hold down + jump, you do a wheelie that allows you to freely damage enemies, but it's extremely easy to accidentally do this while you're trying to jump over a pit.

Hit detection on the main shot never bothered me, since the rapid firing rate is ideal for hosing stuff down, and even the "straight" variant has a pretty generous hitbox... had they demanded Galaga-like accuracy and economy I'd have issues. Similarly the aimed bomb blast, whose limited ammo does demand accuracy, compensates with a monster hitbox and unstoppable piercing capability - so even if you're off by a few pixels, or something gets between you and the boss weakpoint, it's all getting nuked either way. They were also very smart about letting the player collect items while airborne via their shadow, safely bypassing any nearby hazards that could be difficult to maneuver around.

As someone who never had much fun with isometric action gaming, I find this all remarkably well-designed. We're probably approaching this from opposite directions, though. I was expecting an utter rickety mess and instead found it quite agreeable - it's not as tight as straight topdown shooting, but nothing is.

Thought I'd forever be the only one to post about the dangerous temptation of wheelies. It's pretty mortifying the first time it happens, but nothing I mind working around, especially with jumps being extensively long, hyper-maneuverable, and requiring no momentum.

some of the stage balancing seems to be around the idea you'll take a pretty decent number of hits, too, and the secrets for health restores are pretty obscure. i've always considered that kind of balancing to be very questionable. you don't need the health restores, but their placement almost suggests they're an intended part of the design, as they're generally spaced in spots to be when you'd most likely to need one.

I'd put it on the right side of Euroshump along with stuff like Forgotten Worlds, Battle Formula and Steel Empire (played as the biplane, for the last - not sure how the zeppelin fares, never used it). Game design is clean enough that you could technically play all of these as traditional one-hit killers, albeit miserable ones. I think it's obvious the designers wanted players to have the luxury of taking a nick here or there in the heat of battle, while expecting them to evade the vast majority of damage. (lifebars can be a Bad Shooter Design slush fund, needless to say)

No comment on the nutty secrets - I liked finding them in the midst of nuking stuff (and those cutscenes are cool!) but yeah, bizarre. Reminded me of all the secret lifeups Sega added to the eminently clearable Strider's MD port.

did you know it was apparently rumored that lobb created splatterhouse? i was just talking with rob strangman (who ran the west mansion fansite and is more or less verifiably splatterhouse fan numero uno) about this a week or so ago, actually! had no idea it was a rumor until he told me, we also got on the subject while bringing up ken lobb. he was apparently just on staff for 2 and 3's localization, i believe. rob's forum is actually where i used to talk to klatrymadon.

Regarding SH3US, it's the ominous phrase "balancing work" that makes me suspect him. Needless to say, though, I'll totally apologise if it was someone else who shat the bed on that one.

[kitten]

Hit detection on the main shot never bothered me, since the rapid firing rate is ideal for hosing stuff down, and even the "straight" variant has a pretty generous hitbox... had they demanded Galaga-like accuracy and economy I'd have issues. Similarly the aimed bomb blast, whose limited ammo does demand accuracy, compensates with a monster hitbox and unstoppable piercing capability - so even if you're off by a few pixels, or something gets between you and the boss weakpoint, it's all getting nuked either way. They were also very smart about letting the player collect items while airborne via their shadow, safely bypassing any nearby hazards that could be difficult to maneuver around.

wasn't just my shot hitboxing, but my character's, as well. in particular, i found it really hard to judge where i needed to be to grab a power-up during the fast moving stages, which occasionally meant missing really important things like health recovery.

As someone who never had much fun with isometric action gaming, I find this all remarkably well-designed. We're probably approaching this from opposite directions, though. I was expecting an utter rickety mess and instead found it quite agreeable - it's not as tight as straight topdown shooting, but nothing is.

it is unexpectedly good for the type of game it is, yes. i always liked sega's classic zaxxon, too. if you like kickmaster's and max warrior's aesthetic, you might like low g man's, too. has that weirdly distinct overusage of purple that KID games almost always have.

re wheelies: it's pretty easy to not notice how they work, entirely, or temporarily forget when you're nearing a gap. my general intuition is to back up and then jump at the last second, and i had to really beat that out of my head. i didn't even know why the hell i'd sometimes not jump until i watched someone on youtube explain that you could pull wheelies - if i'd not seen that, i would have never completed that game, and it was something that had initially caused me to put it down for years. it wasn't until i got the famicom version in a bundle of stuff from a friend and then months later (quite recently) that i booted it up and wanted to finally settle the score. that highway stage is a significant difficulty leap if you don't know about wheelies - both because they'll abruptly kill you on jumps and because it's an important mechanic to mitigating that level's high amount of enemies.

i should maybe sell my american duplicate, hmmmm... that game is worth a little bit. orrrr maybe i'll keep it and see if the price goes up.

I'd put it on the right side of Euroshump along with stuff like Forgotten Worlds, Battle Formula and Steel Empire (played as the biplane, for the last - not sure how the zeppelin fares, never used it). Game design is clean enough that you could technically play all of these as traditional one-hit killers, albeit miserable ones. I think it's obvious the designers wanted players to have the luxury of taking a nick here or there in the heat of battle, while expecting them to evade the vast majority of damage. (lifebars can be a Bad Shooter Design slush fund, needless to say)

i don't think the lifebar is a killer and maybe calling it "shoddy" gave the impression i think less of it than i do - i do think it's a quite decent game (upper 2 out of 4 stars), i just think there's this weird quirkiness to nearly every KID game that rubs it a bit the wrong way. i even think this of kickmaster, which i would sincerely call a great game (solid 3 out of 4). i have already spoken super highly of battle formula (one of my all-time, most favorite games ever that i love dearly), and i would even describe that game as being slightly janky in a few aspects (but more refined than max warrior).

i looked up the dictionary definitions for both of those words, just now, and i definitely mean them in more affectionate & generally less condemning ways than their literal description, if that helps. i usually mean them as "a bit off" or "not quite refined."

Regarding SH3US, it's the ominous phrase "balancing work" that makes me suspect him. Needless to say, though, I'll totally apologise if it was someone else who shat the bed on that one.

there is a good chance it was him! i wonder if rob would have something to say about this, i might work it into my next conversation with him.

[BIL]

Up to today, I didn't realise the wheelie did anything besides disabling your jump, haha (see my linked post). Thought it was just a silly pose! I'm pretty good at spotting control glitches/oddities (sayanora GB Red Arremer II 3; ) and have a masochistic capacity to work around them (Holy Diver 1LC, sayanora another chunk of my sanity 3; ), so it honestly felt more like a weird quirk than anything notable. Will have to see if I can make any use of it... the part of that stage I worry about is the very end, no enemies (besides the boss obviously), just a hell of pits.

Battle Formula is surprisingly good at abstaining from the bullshit, considering its quick quasi-autoscrolling and Tokai's startling tendency for cheap shots in otherwise remarkably sound action games. The only bit I find really objectionable is that first jump into Stage 6's "dark" section, when reached at Level 3 (the car's final transformation). Either L3's top speed is higher than the lower two, or its hitbox is different... but if you don't know to decelerate just a tick, you're gonna overshoot the followup ramp and die. Decelerate too much, OTOH, and you won't make the jump. I knew going into BF that there'd be something that'd get my goat slightly (there nearly always is with Tokai), but I was surprised - this feels more like a genuine oversight than a deliberate leg-sweep.

i looked up the dictionary definitions for both of those words, just now, and i definitely mean them in more affectionate & generally less condemning ways than their literal description, if that helps. i usually mean them as "a bit off" or "not quite refined."

That definitely does clarify things, yeah - shoddy is fighting words in my game design vocab. ;3

Although even then, "flawed yet likable" is a nuanced enough distinction that it'll usually need some qualifying, I find. I consider El Viento less refined than Holy Diver (damage-soaking dash/blast VS ruthlessly calculated treachery platformer), but where the former's lifebar slumming is quite harmless (should've been a mecha sidescroller!), the latter's control/flicker issues corrupt it into agony (needed a god damn playtester >_<). So I'll recommend El Viento more readily than Holy Diver, despite considering the latter the better game... tbh, I often won't recommend HD at all despite considering it an important FC sidescrolling experience.

[kitten]

Up to today, I didn't realise the wheelie did anything besides disabling your jump, haha (see my linked post). Thought it was just a silly pose! I'm pretty good at spotting control glitches/oddities (sayanora GB Red Arremer II 3; ) and have a masochistic capacity to work around them (Holy Diver 1LC, sayanora another chunk of my sanity 3; ), so it wasn't an issue. Will have to see if I can make any use of it... the part of that stage I worry about is the very end, no enemies (besides the boss obviously) but pits pits pits.

your entire hitbox, not just the front of your bike, becomes capable of damaging enemies at no detriment to you when you pop a wheelie.

it is super duper useful and turns you into a total road warrior

Battle Formula is surprisingly good at abstaining from the bullshit, considering Tokai's startling tendency for cheap shots in otherwise very sound action games. The only bit I find really objectionable is that first jump in Stage 6's sewer section, when reached at Level 3 (the car's final transformation). Either L3's top speed is higher than the lower two, or its hitbox is different... but if you don't know to decelerate just a tick, you're gonna overshoot the followup ramp and die. Decelerate too much and you won't make the jump. I knew going into BF that there'd be something that'd get my goat slightly (there nearly always is with Tokai), but I was surprised - feels more like a genuine oversight than a targeted cheap shot.

i believe that tokai engineering is actually just a shell company for sunsoft, not an actual, distinct entity. there's a common conception that they were an outsourced group, i believe, that isn't actually correct. i may need to call my sharc-alarm to have him butt into the thread and clear this up, as he's the one who initially pointed this out to me (and whose knowledge on sunsoft blows mine out of the water - he's been long constructing an article on them that may never see fruition, but the dude knows his shit. nearly ordered a sun electronics coffee machine just for fun!!!). i believe i once brought tokai up to him and he corrected me saying it was useless to distinguish that name from sunsoft. (EDIT: i am PRETTY SURE this is what happened, putting this note here just in case i'm misremembering and look like a gigantic moron)

and, yes, i'm aware of that section you're talking about, and it's bullshit. your car gains a faster max speed as it upgrades, and the highest two upgrades (i believe) are actually too fast for that ramp. it is the one, completely unfair "gotcha!" in the whole game, and i'm always sweating bullets as i reach that point and pray that i've adjusted to be just slow enough to make it. that entire stretch after it is a bit bullshit with plenty of pits, too, and i often remain completely immobile as i go through it, picking up health pick-ups to mitigate the damage i take (it works, reliably!). there are a few other bits i have niggling issues with, as well - things that can abruptly instant kill you and aren't super well predicated, a few segments where hits are nearly unavoidable, etc. it has kind of the essence of the action in gremlins 2 or dynamite batman but much more refined.

That definitely does clarify things, yeah - shoddy is fighting words in my game design vocab. ;3

Although even then, "flawed yet likable" is a nuanced enough distinction that it'll usually need some qualifying, I find.

i'm almost always happy to clarify and qualify!

[BIL]

Any information on Sunsoft/Tokai's relationship would be excellent! Weird situation... easy to see how the "Tokai=hired guns" thing could get started, with the distinct commonalities in stuff from Metafight to the end of the FC, and then the seeming vanishing of Sunsoft's action game cred in the subsequent gen. AFAIK, anyway. I actually haven't played much from either side of the "Tokai plateau" besides Madoola.

[BrianC]

Speaking of Sunsoft, I just got Arcade Archives Ikki recently and the FC version is actually a very well done port, aside from the music. The odd edge of screen scrolling is inherited from the arcade and much of quirkiness is intact (though I like how the main character in the AC version looks more like Homer Simpson).

[Sumez]

I briefly touched on the assumption of of Tokai being Sun's "hired guns" just a couple of months ago - I'm under the same impression of you, Kitten - that Tokai was as much a part of Sunsoft as Intelligent Systems was Nintendo.
In fact, for that period of time, I'm pretty certain they WERE Sunsoft, the latter simply being a brand used by Sun Denshi.

[BIL]

Also behind the scenes, oh wao - I didn't know Metal Storm and Lickle shared the same sprite artist, Utata Kiyoshi. Totally makes sense looking past their radically differing aesthetics though, focusing on their uncannily fluid model rotation. More obvious in Lickle (while jumping, or riding a tornado, or just the pause menu), but MS's attract mode pan-around and the barrel-rolling gravity jump are the same deal. Them metamorphosing/transforming wizard n' robot bosses too.

I don't think that aesthetic divide is quite as stark as I'd previously thought, either. Now I really appreciate how Lickle's boss monsters manage to look so goddamn brutal without ever impinging on the cute player characters. It's no affected division, it's the artist's style - just like Metal Storm's careful use of cute n' chubby overtones in its full-metal murder machines.

I'd almost wonder if they shared other staff, or if Kiyoshi's expertise went beyond pure visuals, with both seamlessly integrating those extensive frames to some of the most needle-precise handling in all 2D.

U BEST DO THAT BARREL ROLL MUHFUCKA

Spoiler

[Perikles]

Super Turrican (SFC)

Love this game, one of my favourites on the SFC. I'm not even going to pretend that the game is without flaws, it has a few imbalances for sure. What it does remarkably, nay, exceedingly well is the stylistic coalescence between having an archetypical stalwart protagonist (think ActRaiser 2 or Sword Master) and tactical strike force action (Valken, Metal Warriors). You can switch from marching at a ceaseless, inexorable pace or rolling around with reckless abandon to holding your ground with freezing beams and potent weaponry. Contra games for example feel consistently nimble while Super Turrican has a rare congregation of astounding speed and unassailable soldiership at once. And man, do I love the music in the game, whether the mood is wistful, creepy or energetic, it's always resplendent. I also don't mind that the game ends after the alien lair, seems like a good stopping point to me. Some pretty tricky as well as solid & varied platforming (including forced scrolling, ice physics, conveyor belts, pushing wind), too, you do have to work through a lot of scenarios (cementing the operations unit character of the game). Boss fights aren't as good, unfortunately, but that's only a minor issue for me.

[BIL]

I was really enjoying it other than the slow camera, tbh. Will definitely give it another go now. I played up to the toxic waste labyrinth and was already wanting to go back and fill out some of those end-stage pickup totals... I always thought the collect 'em up aspect sounded a bit unappealing, but add a timer and nonstop violence and suddenly whoa: compulsion! Only saw a few bosses, but I did enjoy learning to stop hiding from that mech chap's fast lasers, instead hopping onto his handcannon and pulverising his face in short order.

st1-3's music is killer - so much, in fact, I could've sworn they nicked the brooding lead melody from Terminator 2's movie soundtrack, but from a quick recon it seems not! I wouldn't care anyway, I know the series and Factor 5 in general have a proud tradition of cheekily swiping stuff. ;3

[Squire Grooktook]

Holy Diver - Good Controls Label
Super Turrican - Good Camera Label

A man can dream.

[Sumez]

The absurd thing about the Turrican series is that they managed to create 4 or 5 games without ever realising how a game should control and/or scroll. Typical European developer stubbornness.

[Perikles]

Super Turrican 2 has a better camera if memory serves - due to how the game is structured, it's not quite easy to say without checking first. Where the first Super Turrican exclusively focuses on the run 'n gun stages, the sequel has a lot of embedded particles from other genres: there're a couple of jetbike stages with rail perspective, brazenly stolen from the Super Star Wars games on the SNES, a shoot 'em up stage straight out of Axelay (it's almost the same thing as Axelay's fifth stage mechanically and visually), tube stages à la Gyruss, a few vehicles (buggy, submarine hoverbike), etc. While the concomitant variety is certainly commendable, it also mars the game since many of these segments are not unduly solid, the rail jetbike levels in particular feel quite unresponsive. The game shows real potential during the sections where proper use of the grappling hook is mandatory, the boss fights are fantastic, even. Unfortunately, even a lot of the core regular stages just feature a lot of even ground without any terrain or otherwise interesting diversions. Even worse, there's quite a bit of unnecessary repetition in these. It's still a fun game with outstanding visuals and an excellent soundtrack, yet feels slightly unsatisfactory for you know it could've been outstanding had they crafted the entire game around the actually important action and the amazing grappling hook.

[Sumez]

Super Turrican 2 does have a much better camera. It's the (5th or) 6th game.

[kitten]

I briefly touched on the assumption of of Tokai being Sun's "hired guns" just a couple of months ago - I'm under the same impression of you, Kitten - that Tokai was as much a part of Sunsoft as Intelligent Systems was Nintendo.
In fact, for that period of time, I'm pretty certain they WERE Sunsoft, the latter simply being a brand used by Sun Denshi.

sharc said he'll probably drop a post in, today, so he might clear a little bit more up.

i've always wanted to know more about minakuchi engineering, the company that made mega man I, III, IV and V for the gb, as well as bionic commando gb. i don't think their staff names have ever been released and i don't believe it was even known they existed as a third party until an inafune interview for rockman complete works, where he mentions that the people they signed on to do most of the game boy games seemed to understand mega man better than he did (not a difficult feat, imho). he mentions they were already fans, and i feel like it shows in their immediate grasp of the series' design. i have trouble retaining names and might not even remember them, but i'd love to drop them a line and tell them i adored their stuff.

a lot of smaller or lesser known japanese devs are way too humble or even self-deprecating about their accomplishments - many seem to think they didn't even do anything interesting or important i got to have a brief internet conversation with tomomi sakai one time (which i will treasure until the day i die) where he was humbled someone would love his game so much. he told me that what i said made him feel he was living a good life and even told me that i understood him well from how i talked about gimmick and trip world. i genuinely teared up and cried. it was such a brief exchange (i did not want to bog him down with questions or waste his time), but it meant the world, to me.

there's an interview with masashi kageyama sponsored by red bull of all things that is really, really good, too. he talks about how the discovery of people covering his music from gimmick made him get back into music, altogether, after feeling defeated and getting out of it after the famicom. just. aw, man, i'm crying again. someone i know got in touch with him on facebook and even received unreleased demos by him. he was flattered deeply that people found his work meaningful. tomomi sakai even reads english youtube comments on the soundtrack

i just think of the fucking immense hubris that modern directors and dipshit video game "rockstars" like todd howard have and how much they view the people who actually make the game as beneath them, how they view their fans as annoying... and then i look at old-school devs who poured their heart and soul into their work barely even knowing they're acknowledged by anyone, and it just gets me fiercely emotional.

i very literally can't think of this shit without firing up the waterworks

letting the guy who made gimmick know that i adore his work as my favorite game felt like a serious load of my chest. i have trouble putting into words how much that game means to me and i had seriously torn-up emotions knowing how unappreciated the game was in its time and how niche it is, today. sorry for the tangent, the weird, shadowy history of classic japanese game development gives me Emotions.

Also behind the scenes, oh wao - I didn't know Metal Storm and Lickle shared the same sprite artist, Utata Kiyoshi. Totally makes sense looking past their radically differing aesthetics though, focusing on their uncannily fluid model rotation. More obvious in Lickle (while jumping, or riding a tornado, or just the pause menu), but MS's attract mode pan-around and the barrel-rolling gravity jump are the same deal. Them metamorphosing/transforming wizard n' robot bosses too.

kiyoshi worked on cocoron, too. i brought him up in my lickle article, i believe. he really did some amazing stuff for the famicom :O i always wondered how he got around to end up working on metal storm, though. it doesn't fit his left-capcom-for-sur-de-wave history, and metal storm was the same year as cocoron and before lickle, so he must have been freelancing or something. did he have some friends at irem?

Holy Diver - Good Controls Label
Super Turrican - Good Camera Label

A man can dream.

holy diver could really also do with some multiplexing. the tower boss is by far the biggest reason i've still not attempted a 1cc of that game. fixing that control quirk and adding in some multiplexing coding doesn't seem like a terribly difficult task, at least saying it out loud. if only someone with programming chops would do a quick hack...

[FinalBaton]

yeah japanese devs are crazy humble/embarassed at the very thought of their work being celebrated! I really wish that all the ones who did great work receive some appreciation today.

I'm personnally happy that insanely talented VGM composer JKL Furukawa got some love recently. Looks like it has kickstarted his return to VGM too.
Michirin9801 (formelry Ruko Michiaru)did some covers of Furukawa's PC-98 soundtracks (Cyber Block Metal Orange and Carat) and posted them on her Youtube, and Furukawa himself posted in the vids' comment section, complimenting her! and subscribbed to her channel! we of course took the opportunity to thank him for his awesome work. I also personnally checked out his channel and gave some love to a bunch of his arranged covers (which are killer btw, everyone should go check them out). Oh and Michirin's covers are amazing as well :O check her channel out, she's a rad chick!
Fun fact : he's also subscribed to me! althought I don't publish any of my music on Youtube Guess he likes my longplays!



There is also an effort from the team behind Samurai Shodown(Samurai gumi) to get some attention and hopefully get the nod from a company that will allow them to release another game together. One last hurrah. I like seeing that, hopefully that will work out for them. Isaw that on here, it's a Polygon interview and Squire Grooktook posted it somewhere