Games that are Overrated

[KimagureMachibuse]

I like Yoshi's Island and SMW, but my favorite 2D Mario game is Kid Chameleon

Kid Chamelon is a cool 2D mario game though

yet Alex Kidd in Miracle world is the best 2D one though

but in all seriousness 3 is the best 2D game for me even more so with the SNES Version follewed by Yoshi Island SNES

[KimagureMachibuse]

>Here is my list of problems with the console including the technical specs which for some reason i know about "

Trust me, none of the technical specs he discussed in that post had anything to do with the real world

im just a person who learnt about stuff like cpus and soundchips in videos and online which is why i know about most of how that works and why its fascinating to me, stuff like that usually does not matter much and is why i do not bring it up however in this case it does fit in what i have to say.

yet no matter how think about that technical stuff i had to say. the things they did with this console were to say the least very bizarre cartridges did hurt the console they were more expensive to produce over CD-Rom based Storage had a measly amount of storage capacity and literally was the main reason 3rd party companies abandoned the system.

The lack of a dedicated soundchip did effect how games were made it had to be done by the system thus eating up the storage and memory of a console that had an already weak amount of it due to cartridges and most of the voices were compressed to oblivion.

most games on the system were quite muddy and blurry looking especially if it were a port of a game plenty of fog present in games the framerates were pretty crap its odd how many colors this console can produce yet the games look so muddy.

The console's library was mostly hot piss and it was missing pletny of genres. I said it had a few good ones but most have been re-released on other systems and are overall way better to play mainly due to a better designed controller. the other consoles of the generation had way more to offer and more so with the previous generation.

[KimagureMachibuse]

">I have very little interest in N64
>Here is my list of problems with the console including the technical specs which for some reason i know about "

Dude did an N64 kill one of your family or something?? There's some super strong bias here, it seems personal

"> I've not played OoT but i'll include it in my overrated thread. "
pure genius. Gee, I wonder if this is anything to do with your apparent blood vendetta against said console.

>Oot
>RPG

do we really need to get into this..

8-bit sonic the hedgehog is actually a neat port and is more consistent comapred to the 16-bit version on the Sega genesis

Wait.. WHAT?

No the N64 did not do any harsh things to me thats just sounds silly

i just think its a pretty ehhh console with a weak library of games and missing a ton of genres plus that controller is god awful no matter how you put it. the system gets to the point of being really overhyped with these rose tinted glasses saying its the greatest console of all time when that statment is far from the truth.

when there are others that are far objectivley better of consoles with there libraries of games and general design and having a grand amount of variety.

And I really only mentioned OOT because it was in the discussion of games despite me not ever touching that game i have nothing to say with that game as i have not played it. not really much else there to that.




And with 8-bit sonic 1 i meant its more consistent compared to the 16-bit version with its zones structures
its it better than the 16-bit version? that one thats up for debate but for me the 8-bit was more consitent


Sonic the Hedgehog 16-bit starts out strong then goes to some what with a halt with marble zone and its slow platforming then after that comes spring yard which is fine but when you get to labyrinth zone the game becomes a total slow mess with slow momentum and drowning however starlight is good however my point still stands sonic the hedgehog is like the beta of what 2 would be.

The 16-bit sequels made sonic what sonic is supposed to be momentum based and accelerating how things were supposed to be with the first game that is especially the case with Sonic The Hedgehog 2.

[Sumez]

Wow

[o.pwuaioc]

I can kind of get behind the Sonic stuff. I love 1 still, I think it's rated as it should be (2 and 3 get all the love, but 1 is still a good game), but the slowest parts of the game can really be a drag sometime compared to what you think Sonic *should* be like. And no dash attack feels archaic.

The Sonic games on the Master System feel like proper 8-bit predecessors to the 16-bit games, in the same way that Castlevania, Contra, and Mario on the NES were. To me that means they did them right with what they had. They weren't without their faults, but Sonic 1 8bit was always a very satisfying romp.

Overrated camp:

Yoshi's Island is too annoying to play at all, and Super Mario RPG was a bore.

[To Far Away Times]

OoT is so entwined with the N64 and where gaming went from there, the two are inseparable. And OoT has to be taken into account when looking at the N64 as a whole. It's as important as being first with the analog stick.

OoT in particular is a big reason why the N64 is looked upon so favorably. It was so forward thinking and laid down so many firsts and game design rules that we now take for granted today. It's one of the most copied games in history. Z targeting, the context sensitive action button, and auto jump all either originate from Zelda or it was the first game to use it in a context that popularized it going forward. There is no Dark Souls, GTA, Assassins Creed, Bayonetta, Witcher 3, etc without Zelda OoT laying the ground work. All of this in a massive fully 3D adventure game. Playing this is 1998 was like playing a game many years from the future.

We often think of generations in hardware, but game design goes through generations too. Mario 64, Zelda OoT, GTA3, Halo, RE4... these are games that changed gaming forever... when you land one of these games, it's a massive get for the console and its legacy. The N64 had two of the most influential games of all time.

[Sima Tuna]

You really have to compare OoT to the other games that were out at the time, which were fully 3d and at least genre-adjacent. But even today, I maintain that it is still a better 3d zelda than the majority of 3d zeldas. Each 3d zelda game has its own major flaws:

-Majora's Mask was too opaque for most players to unravel without a guide
-Wind Water made you spend hours and hours sailing through NOTHING to get to its levels
-Twilight Princess is like OoT 2.0 but included some truly horrible flying sections
-Skyward Sword has excessive npc handholding + motion control gimmicks
-Breath of the Wild is barely within the same genre

So even if aspects of Ocarina have aged poorly, it's still the one with, like, zero fucking obnoxious gimmicks. There's a definitive 3ds remake out there for those who feel the original is too old and crusty, which updates the visuals and sound faithfully to what your childhood brain remembered. But which doesn't ruin the entire game flow by dumbing shit down like Majora's Mask 3ds.

Is OoT the best zelda game? I would say no. That honor I would reserve for Link's Awakening DX, Oracle of Ages/Seasons (treated as one game,) or maybe Link to the Past. I have a soft spot for the 2d games. Link's Awakening, despite its short-ass length, is pretty much perfect. Majora's Mask could be superior to OoT if you understand all its systems and how to play it well. But you are limited to playing on original hardware or emulation of original hardware, since the 3ds remake of MM was shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit. Breath of the Wild is so different from a conventional Zelda game in structure and design that I don't feel right to say it's better or worse than the others. There are barely any (proper) dungeons or bosses and it doesn't follow the standard item progression for the series, which dates back to the NES original.

So if you want a classic-feeling, fully 3d Zelda game, which doesn't have a lot of gimmicks, then Ocarina of Time is still one of the better choices. Is it overrated? Well, it certainly could be, since the mainstream media has lavished it with excessive praise for decades. But I think that's the mainstream media showing its strengths, in a way. Mark said something once which I agree with. He said that mainstream games journalists are very "tuned in" to what makes mainstream genres good. That's a charitable interpretation of mainstream game journos, but assuming that there ARE some game journos out there who DO actually play and enjoy video games, I'll agree with it. Those kinds of game journos do seem to understand why Chrono Trigger is good, why Secret of Mana is good, why Ocarina of Time is good, why Mario 3 is good, why RE4 is good etc. But the converse of that, and the 2nd part of Mark's statement, is that those same people have NO understanding of why Mushihimesama, Espgaluda II, Akai Katana, Final Fight, Vendetta, God Hand, Ninja Gaiden II etc are good. Even when game journos praise those kinds of HARD ACTION games, they often miss the mark completely. They praise the wrong things and misunderstand basic mechanics shit.

So I look at Ocarina of Time as a case of the mainstream media getting something right for a change, because OoT was a first-party, big-budget release in a mainstream normie genre. It was easy for them to "get it" and that's why they praise the game excessively. But don't let a contrarian impulse to show up the normies blind you to OoT actually being a fun game. If you like 3d zelda, why u no like OoT? Much like Metroid Prime, it's a pretty definitive example of how to shift a franchise into the third dimension and make it work. Besides, the success of OoT didn't hurt the production of 2d zeldas. We got a bunch of fantastic games thanks to the success of portable Ninty systems piggybacking off Ocarina of Time hype. Oracle of Seasons and Oracle of Ages would never have been made if not for OoT.

[Steven]

Ocarina of Time gets a lot of praise; "best game ever made" or whatever, but it's really not. Hell, it's not even the best game of 1998, as StarCraft, Sakura Taisen 2, and Metal Gear Solid are far better games that also released that year, and in its own series I'd still take Link to the Past over Ocarina, but Ocarina is still a very nice and mostly well-designed game, and it actually plays a little better than Metal Gear Solid does due to having better controls. Aside from having a needlessly huge and empty world map and the fact that it's a super easy game (just don't pick up any Heart Containers/Pieces of Heart and that will solve that problem), there really isn't much in Ocarina to complain about, although the game is quite glitchy, but not in a bad way, as there are not many glitches that actually harm the game. They intentionally left most of the really fun glitches in the 3DS remake, as well.

It's probably popular because it was a 3D adventure game that was available to the masses due to it being on the N64, a system that sold pretty well outside of Japan for some weird reason despite having a dearth of games. I'd never heard of Zelda before, and pretty much nobody else had either at that time, at least where I lived, so it was probably just a well-timed release, but good release timing, good marketing, and some mostly competent game design are typically all you really need to be a massive hit, and since the game's design is far better than merely being competent, there you go.

Yes, Ocarina is overrated, but it's still a damn fine game and you should play it. The N64 itself is probably way more overrated than Ocarina is.

[Blinge]

...

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?


everyone else - this is clearly a man who won't read a word of content in your posts,
and will just regurgitate his points with no more evidence and slightly different wording (if you're lucky).
waste of time.

Twilight princess = OoT 2.0 is a retarded take, always has been.
tell me any game you like and i can tear it to shreds with the same 'logic'
The flying sections are basically nothing, there's far criticisms you could throw at the game.

> TP is just OoT 2.0!
> BotW is too different! it's not zelda anymore!


a guide for MM? idk, git gud?

God i hate zelda and talking about it

[Steven]

I hated Twilight Princess so much that I dropped it and the entire series because of that one game. Haven't had any interest in the series at all since.

[Sumez]

I liked TP a lot and probably do consider it OOT 2.0. Feels like a similar game but improved in a lot of ways - most importantly it has some unique and interesting dungeons, which I really enjoyed.
That said, I'm not a massive fan of OOT or 3D Zeldas in general either, but I absolutely do respect all the ways that game managed to influence pretty much all of 3D video games since its release. When the game came out I was unable to not compare it directly to Zelda 3, and even though I liked its approach to taking familiar concept into 3D, it also felt like a step backwards in a lot of ways to me. Seeing today how many people say they prefer Link's Awakening and Link to the Past to Ocarina, I can tell I can't have been the only one.

[Blinge]

It's such a redundant statement. It has 0 worth.

tell me the ways it's OoT 2.0..?

WW is just OoT 2.0 but you spend time in a boat also. There's no other difference?

[Sumez]

Well I kinda agree, it's quite subjective at least. I've never called it "OOT 2.0" before, but I can see what is meant by it.

To me it's just the fact that TP scratches all the same itches OOT does, it just does it a bit better. I wouldn't say the same about Wind Waker, too many elements in the game give me a completely different experience. The biggest similarities are in the dungeons, but the WW dungeons being much fewer and much much larger also give those a different feel.

Also, I don't even remember those flying sections people are talking about, are we talking about that silly minigame? The most common critique of the game I've seen is how long it takes to get going, and I kinda get that. I still consider it a minor flaw though.

[Sima Tuna]

It's such a redundant statement. It has 0 worth.

tell me the ways it's OoT 2.0..?

Spoiler

WW is just OoT 2.0 but you spend time in a boat also. There's no other difference?

Same graphical style
OoT songs are repeated
Character designs are essentially OoT with upgraded gamecube visuals
Large castle town
Water temple redux
Zora and most other life forms pretty much in OoT incarnations
Colored tunics that have unique abilities
TP brings back the fishing minigame from OoT[/spoiler]

It's easier to list the ways it is not like the other post-OoT 3d zeldas. No wind waker boat with a massive open/empty world connecting dungeons. No emphasis on masks. No day progression system. No bomber's notebook. Those are all major design elements which TP chose to leave behind.

a guide for MM? idk, git gud?

Oh, is that how you get all of the masks in majora? You just get good? It's only a skill issue? There's no extremely obscure bullshit?

Execution in (3d) Zelda is nearly nonexistent (because combat is 2EZ). How do you git gud about obscure triggers for things you don't know exist? The game just straight-up doesn't tell you tons of shit and you have to either figure it out yourself (if you can) or (what people actually do) look it up online. People have been reading online faqs for majora's mask since the earliest days of gamefaqs. It isn't just how little the game tells you, but how specific and time-sensitive some of the triggers are.

Also I liked you read my entire long post and picked out maybe 2 things I said to get mad over. Wind Waker is not just OoT 2.0 and you know this. Every bit of WW content, which would normally be in a 3d Zelda game, has been chopped apart, placed on islands and set 4000 miles from the nearest bit of other content in the game. That's the largest design difference. You can't play OoT and WW the same way. I didn't even mention the triforce piece hunt, which adds this massive endgame fetch quest to a WW playthrough which isn't present in OoT. The closest analogue I can think of is a similar key hunt in metroid prime. Leaving aside the fact Wind Waker looks and sounds different from Ocarina, whereas Twilight Princess specifically apes the colors and visual style of OoT (minus the dark world stuff, which is original,) it's easy to see all the ways that Twilight Princess was an attempt to follow up on Ocarina of Time for the next generation. One of the BIGGEST criticisms of Wind Waker when it launched was how different it looked and felt from Ocarina of Time. A lot of normies couldn't get over that. Twilight Princess was nintendo's attempt to win those people over, and it worked. The versions of Zelda, Link and Ganondorf in Twilight Princess are nearly 1-for-1 recreations of their OoT counterparts.

Of course, people also came to appreciate wind waker more over the years, too. I don't think wind waker is a bad game. But whenever I start a new file in WW, I inevitably find myself wanting to quit when I'm stuck in "between" sections of the game. When you're not actively solving a dungeon, Wind Waker's amount of stalling and time-wasting bullshit can be extremely aggravating. Even when you warp, WW doesn't warp you right next to the island. Not only you have to play a song to warp (get out your baton, play the song, pick the spot on the map that's closest to your objective, watch the cutscene) but you'll still usually be placed so far out into the ocean that you STILL have to equip your sail and STILL might have to play the baton song to change the breeze direction. All of that to go from one island (you've been to already) to another island (you've been to already.) If you want to go to an island you haven't been to yet (and haven't been anywhere close to yet), get ready to spend a lot of time watching the waves crash against your ship.

What part of that is anything like Ocarina of Time? In OoT, most zones are fairly small. Hyrule Field is still too big, but it's way smaller in practice than WW's ocean. And there's no wind/sail system to constantly require menu fuckery. Warps in OoT are also pretty much directly to the place you want to go. Which is how Twilight Princess does things, too. TP's warp system is more convenient than OoT, which I chalk up to incremental improvement on design.

Of course, there are some gameplay additions that get carried from game to game in every Zelda title. Like, the ability to pick weapons up off the ground clearly came from Wind Waker over to Twilight Princess, right? Same with the counter move.

I really don't think it's controversial to say that Twilight Princess was nintendo's own attempt to recapture the lightning-in-a-bottle, overwhelmingly positive response they received to Ocarina of Time. Especially after their last two console Zeldas had received more mixed reception (MM and Wind Waker, respectively.) Nintendo often does this. They'll make a game people really love, and then they'll use that goodwill to put out a few more experimental titles, where they try going in different directions. Sometimes that works out. If it doesn't, then they'll usually put out a "safe" game that repackages and reworks ideas from the old, beloved title while bringing the visual and auditory presentation up to the then-modern standard.

[Blinge]

Mad? yeah i'm the one who's mad, mr essayist.

Here, i'll throw you this bone: Every pre-botw 3D zelda is the same core concept (OoT) with a different silly gimmick that is never fleshed out enough, said gimmicks just look good in trailers to hook people in and that's it.

MM is the exception.

Yeah it's a skill issue m8
Y'know i'm pretty sure the bomber's notebook shows at what point you can have an encounter with every mask-related NPC at any possible time - even when you haven't had the encounter yet.
Even if I take you at your word and admit "yes you need a guide." I still wouldn't call it a bad game.

Ah the old "zelda combat isn't worth talking about because it's too easy."
not for the hundreds of thousands of casual audience who are the true Zelda target market, not crusty fucking autists like us.

[Sumez]

I really enjoyed those unique time based puzzles in Majora's Mask. For the issues the game has, those were just super interesting, and feel almost like they were conceived for a different game entirely only to be injected into Zelda because someone felt the idea was too good to just scrap alongside whatever other game never got made.

Using a guide to look up the solutions sounds like cheating yourself. I don't remember ever having to look up stuff for that game, and I also don't think it's a "skill issue" as much as it's probably a patience one. People picking up an old game years after it came out and expecting to be spoonfed a solution so they can move on to the next one.

[Blinge]

Before I answer all this the whole " OoT 2.0" is still retarded because nobody applies that brush to any other series
hahaha super metroid is just metroid 1 again!!!

-eternal ring is dark souls with a horse
-man you know what SFV is just 3rd strike again tbh, it has supers and dudes in gis.
***

Same graphical style

No, not really. It has a unique style.
Kind of a subjective claim, isn't it?
You mean it's not cel shaded? k...

OoT songs are repeated

?? you mean you butcher them in wolf mode?
wait didn't WW repeat the sun's song from OoT? guess it's OoT again.

Dark souls 2 literally resuses bell gargoyle theme so i guess DS2 is just DS1 2.0

Character designs are essentially OoT with upgraded gamecube visuals

Literally have nothing to grapple with here, it's even more subjective.
Yeah sure, zelda looks fucking identical in TP to how she does in OoT

Large castle town

Well shit, you got me! they both have a large castle town?
it's literally the same game.

Water temple redux

SS also has a water-based dungeon

also TP's water temple is not a "redux", the whole concept of the temple in TP doesn't involve raising and lowering water levels to access different areas and change the character of areas you've already explored.
This is the defining feature of OoT's Water Temple.

Zora and most other life forms pretty much in OoT incarnations

??? you mean the zora's didn't evolve into fucking birds? (LOL)
Wait so some NPC races MUST be totally different otherwise you get to characterise them as evidence for "it's OoT again"
That's tenuous at best..

And I should remind you the Gorons behave differently, they look different - they're bigger and more muscular; they're isolationist and try to force you off the mountain.

Colored tunics that have unique abilities

One of which is completely useless.

Different abilities? The TP one lets you swim, and do a LOT
the OoT tunics just allow you to exist in different areas. They don't actually give link new abilities.

TP brings back the fishing minigame from OoT

it brings A fishing minigame... 'bring back' is misleading and implies it's the same game, it's not exactly?
.. no matter how you slice it - a minigame is very weak evidence

i think red dead 2 has zeldo elements because you can fish in it....... cmon

[Steven]

I liked Majora's Mask. It's probably the most creative asset flip game I've ever seen in terms of how it reused those flipped assets. Seeing all of the characters in the game dealing in their own ways with their impending fate of being annihilated by the falling moon isn't something you typically see in Nintendo games, either. Good shit.

[Blinge]

All this to say -
I agree with a lot of what you're saying Tuna but the whole "2.0" thing I find so reductive as to be meaningless.

[Sumez]

eternal ring is dark souls with a horse

Pretty sure plenty of people have said that, and they wouldn't be wrong either.

No matter how silly you think it sounds it also doesn't change the fact that Twilight Princess did (and still does) get a lot of flak for seemingly "just being OOT over again". Like I said, I can see where it's coming from, but I also don't think it works as criticism of the game, kinda for the same reasons you're going on on about.
Besides, in the context of Sima's original post it at least serves to qualify why the game doesn't hold the same historic presence as OOT, in the same way SMB2j ("The Lost Levels") is obviously never credited as being a massive game changer the way SMB1 was. I'm more confused about the criticism directed at the supposed flying sections...

[Volteccer_Jack]

I think "just being OoT again" can be applied to every 3D Zelda made after OoT except BotW to some extent (and OoT can be described as "just LttP again") but at a certain point you're just complaining about the fact that it's a sequel, which is a complaint that amounts to saying that you don't like the series to begin with. You might as well complain that Ninja Gaiden 2 is just Ninja Gaiden again.

[Blinge]

^ This guy gets it

[Air Master Burst]

What a goofy turn this took.

Ocsrina of Time is basically just LTTP in 3D. The past/future time travel gimmck from OOT is a barely-reskinned version of the light/dark worlds from LTTP. Almost all the items are the same, some of the bosses even.

I think Link's Awakening might be the last Zelda without a gimmick, but I haven't actually played any of them since getting bored 3 hours into Twilight Princess, so I might have missed one.

[Steven]

I haven't actually played any of them since getting bored 3 hours into Twilight Princess, so I might have missed one.

I'm not alone~!

[Blinge]

Nice post count Steven, you'd better not ruin it! ha

[drauch]

Wasn't there a Zelda argument thread in the past, or was that a digression in another thread? I did a cursory search but didn't find anything. I distinctly recall "I hate talking about Zelda"

[To Far Away Times]

Zelda games are usually spaced out pretty well (1 to 2 games per console) and the games are different enough from each other with different art styles and gimmicks. I've never had franchise fatigue with it.

[Steven]

Nice post count Steven, you'd better not ruin it! ha

lol I'll have to ruin it eventually anyway to post those Toaplan translations I am working on! Yes, those are still coming, I promise. Work unexpectedly and quite suddenly became quite hectic last week and stuff, so my Toaplan stuff got temporarily delayed.

[BIL]

Zeldong and MegaMans are two of MUH FAVE games because all my favourite peeps get HEATED AF about 'em and IDGAF about either



I did enjoy OOT bitd. Everyone did, in my year group! All the magazines gagged HARD on Miyamoto's balls. But my N64 MVP 4 1998 is F-ZEROX, a very progressive 60fps racer where the black homo dude SCREAM LIKE A GIRL when he goes off the track

EDIT: Oshi I just remembered Zelda 2 (JP VER, get it on GBA for NO LOADS IN YOUR FACE ;3) is bussin, with its authentically R2RKMF Knightly Duels and Treachery Platforming And tbh so is ZELDA 1, in its Druaga X Grobda way! I guess I am not the bystander I thought, eh

[Air Master Burst]

F-Zero X is ok, but honestly not even the best N64 futuristic racer from 98 (Wipeout 64 takes it). Then again, for my money the best N64 game of 1998 was 1080 Snowboarding, so different strokes and all that.