Devil May Cry [PS2] + R2VKMF: Polygonal Action Daishingeki

[drauch]

Goddamn, BIL, have you really put in 1K hours into DS1 already!? Didn't you start that a few months ago--that's over a month of continuous playtime! I hope it's not exaggeration because I need someone to believe in.

[BIL]

Had to go back and check, lest I unknowingly claim unearned valour

Was aykshualy 800hrs, six months to the day since first making Mr. Birb's acquaintance - so still plenty disgraceful. This is why I waited a decade to see what the fuss was about, I figured the combination of leisurely tinkering and hardcore killing would hook me like a motherfucker. Even then, I would've kept putting them off if not for the lockdown.

Starring Captain Homo, last seen punching Kalameet in the mouth



and Mike Smith, who came to Lordran seeking a cure for his patron's JIGOKU no H.I.V. 3;





^^^ Anyone else think that one forest hunter dude looks uncannily like King Of Scrubs DSP? I'd almost think it was an inside joke on the ol' pigroach. Then again, as a connoisseur of internet laughingstocks I sometimes overestimate his notoriety.

[drauch]

Only 33 days! There's room for improvement!

Agreed on BB's bosses, btw. I jumped back in a while back for a leisurely run to tackle stuff I've missed, and the camera/boss size was something I seemingly had forgotten. It had been a while, so I was a bit taken aback on how bad it can be at times. A perfect reason for that remaster, eh.

Actually doing a full-on magic build in DS1 atm. It pretty much trivializes the entire game. It's kinda fun just steamrolling, but nothing feels like a valiant win. A lot of bosses eat it in about three shots. DLC big boys are a bit more of a challenge due to their speed. I thought Artorias was going to give more trouble after the first two deaths, but once you wait for that charge-up window you can just wail destructive spells on him and he's down in like 6-7 shots. Seath took a bit more damage than anyone. It's pretty nutty compared to the other games' magic builds imo, although I've never taken that route in DS3 so I can't speak to that.

[Squire Grooktook]

I couldn't believe the luxury of DS1's shields, and even if DS2 is much more assholic about crowding during stages and bosses alike, it too is way, way kinder about letting you wait for openings behind block.

People actually use the stupid shields and heavy armor?

I personally prefer playing with shields because I feel the stamina system makes less sense without. I like the risk/reward trade off of lowering defense for faster stamina recovery vs keeping it up. Reminds me of Biometal a bit.

I've done like 4-5+ playthroughs of DS1. I tried to go with every combination, from cartwheeling ninja man to balanced knight dude to heavy armored fatman with great armor and giant weapon. Had fun with all of 'em.

[Volteccer_Jack]

I'm in the pro-shield camp for sure. They add to the meter management and decision-making, and they don't really change the overall difficulty; you're just spending stamina to make timing easier or maintain positioning. High-end shields like Greatshield of Artorias are a bit OP but they also have high-end requirements to balance that. I think the positioning aspect is the main reason Bloodborne drops them, it wants very much for the player to stay on the move in combat. The 2 shields that do exist are primarily used to stop ranged attacks and thus allow the player to move more freely.

[Sima Tuna]

Souls talk spoilered

Spoiler

I'm a scrub in souls games, so I naturally use shields all the time. But I appreciate how DS2 tried to rebalance shields so that you couldn't slap on a Heater at the start of the game and play the entire game that way. 100% damage resist shields are rare in DS2. Sure, everyone knows about the Drang shield, but that sucker is still fairly heavy. Not all builds will get to have a 100% damage resist shield in DS2. Which is a good thing generally. DS1 shields were so scrub-friendly that you had 100% damage resist, 70+% element resist (magic, fire, etc) shields that weighed a mere 2 or 3 pounds. Most of which were obtained early in the game. Anyway, that's point 1 in my thesis for why DS2 improved upon DS1 in many ways. If only the level design had been on point. There are some decent levels, but many of them are nonsensical or, even worse, feel copypasted. You might think I hate DS2, but nothing could be further from the truth. I have played hundreds of hours of DS2, went from liking it to hating it to loving it (while acknowledging its flaws.) At its best, DS2 offers far more build variety and meaningful decision making than almost any other Souls game. There are some fantastic boss fights, such as the DLC dragon, Ivory King and Mr. Rock-On-A-Stick (Velstadt).

Dark Souls 3 was a pile of shit imo. It wanted desperately to be bloodborne but gameplay felt jank and unbalanced (unlike BB) because Souls combat is built for a slower pace. When you add fast enemies to a slow game, even if you speed up the player's dodge (which is still less fast than DeS,) the end result feels terrible. I played hundreds of hours of DS3, desperately hoping to like it, but I never did. Game is derivative shit. The few good bosses are straight-up stolen BB boss designs which, again, don't work as well as they should. Stamina is near useless at times because a single enemy attack will plow through it, stunlock and instant kill you whether or not you have a shield. So you might as well not have one because it's the same shit either way. Blocking doesn't work in DS3. Spamming roll is the DS3 meta and it's shit.

I booted up DMC3 SE for switch. Pretty good so far. I did forget a few things I don't care for in DMC3SE's design:

As another poster mentioned, DMC3 does, indeed, give you some dogshit camera angles. Even in the special edition. The default camera movement is extremely sluggish and set to reverse left/right for an incomprehensible reason.

The save system is kinda borked. I don't mind being punished for continuing, but booting up the game provides an option to choose "Gold" or "Yellow" with zero description of what these differences mean. Yeah yeah, dmc vets are supposed to just know. Well, excuse me for it being a little while since last time I played! Another issue that's kind of annoying is the main menu has a "save" function, which will save your game and show you that it just saved where you were.... Except it doesn't save. It saves your items, weapons, levels, stats and stuff, but places you at the beginning of that level when you reload. I'm not mad that DMC3 has such a system in itself, but the levels can sometimes be long, containing multiple boss fights. If you want to stop your gaming session for any reason, you can't. This could be fixed by placing actual save points in the game. Even an RE2 style typewriter system would be an upgrade over this.

Other than that, obviously the gameplay, mechanics, bosses etc are as I remember. Great. I still hate those arrow-shooting fuckers as much as ever. Good old Cerberus was a lot of fun.

I wonder if I'm starting to rate NGB/Sigma higher now that I'm older. NG feels so much smoother and more, I dunno, "advanced" compared to ye olde DMC combat.

[Air Master Burst]

I wonder if I'm starting to rate NGB/Sigma higher now that I'm older. NG feels so much smoother and more, I dunno, "advanced" compared to ye olde DMC combat.

I don't think NG is more advanced so much as just differently focused. DMC is all about looking cool as shit. NG is all about kicking your ass as hard as possible. It's much easier to make it through DMC than NG, but the skill ceiling on the combo system is just as high as NG's. You just don't strictly need most of it to survive.

It's kind of a shame the entire genre is DMC-alikes these days. I really wish someone would iterate more on NG, or maybe weird off-the-wall shit like GunValkyrie and P.N. 03.

Holy shit, it looks like GunValkyrie is backwards compatible! I can't wait until xboxes are cheap enough to buy one for all the backwards compatible stuff I really want.

[Sima Tuna]

What I mean about Ninja Gaiden feeling "more advanced," is that DMC combat has this stutter-step quality to it. Even when you are playing optimally. Stop and start. Fast and slow. When you're dodging, you're doing a lot of jumping in place, or air tricking, stuff like that. When you're attacking, you're kind of locked into place and unable to really move much. Sure, you have High Time, Helm Splitter, Stinger and other mobility tools, but these are quite stiff compared to Ninja Gaiden. Combat in general feels stiffer.

With Ninja Gaiden, Ryu flows effortlessly from one movement into another. Defense becomes offense without pause. You reverse wind, jump into a wall run, leap off into Flying Swallow, land for a split-second, then flip-throw some dude off his motorcycle, stun a third with shuriken and go into instant UT (absorbing the essence of the headless guy you FS'd.) The sense of flow in Ninja Gaiden is unmatched, outside of maybe Bayo. You're always moving.

It's hard to explain exactly the difference in how the games feel to play. The two games are very different despite belonging to the same subgenre. DMC has RE as its basis in game design, whereas Ninja Gaiden... Who even knows? I couldn't find any info on Itagaki's inspiration for the series, other than a general philosophy of wanting a fast-paced, difficult, rewarding game.

[Kriegor]

What about Resident Evil 6. Would you classify it as a character action game?

[Squire Grooktook]

Stamina is near useless at times because a single enemy attack will plow through it, stunlock and instant kill you whether or not you have a shield. So you might as well not have one because it's the same shit either way. Blocking doesn't work in DS3. Spamming roll is the DS3 meta and it's shit.

Nah shields are incredibly good in DS3, just for a stupid meta reason that I didn't realize on my first play and needed to be told about later:

There's like two rings in the game that massively, massively, MASSIVELY reduce weight load and increase stamina. So even if you're anemic spritely ninja dude you can still have massive fucking stamina and a giant great shield that can block massive strings or giant swings with barely any stamina damage. You combine that with a character who actually has moderate strength and stamina and you can basically hide behind a shield for 90% of the bosses in the game. It makes the game way easier and less annoying / frustrating.

What I mean about Ninja Gaiden feeling "more advanced," is that DMC combat has this stutter-step quality to it. Even when you are playing optimally. Stop and start. Fast and slow. When you're dodging, you're doing a lot of jumping in place, or air tricking, stuff like that. When you're attacking, you're kind of locked into place and unable to really move much. Sure, you have High Time, Helm Splitter, Stinger and other mobility tools, but these are quite stiff compared to Ninja Gaiden. Combat in general feels stiffer.

Maybe in 3 but in 4 and 5 optimally played Dante is a whirlwind death machine traveling at mach 5 spamming bullet hell across the screen while simultaneously juggling 5 dudes with 10 swords. The only time he ever "stops" is when he teleports behind you 3 times in a row to do a taunt.

It's kind of a shame the entire genre is DMC-alikes these days

I wish. It's more accurate to say everything is Bayonetta/Platinum-like these days: dial-a-combos and one button defense manuevers that put you in an invincible god-state when you do them with proper rhythm game timing. Hate it.

Assault Spy is one of the few games I've played in a long time that actually feels properly Devil May Cry inspired and feels like the devs actually liked and understood dmc.

What about Resident Evil 6. Would you classify it as a character action game?

I classify it as shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit

[Obiwanshinobi]

Anyone ever play Conan 360/PS3? It was one of those B grade licensed games that was way more fun than it had any right to be.

At first it was like yeah shitty GoW ripoff published by THQ? This should be a solid 5/10 jankfest.Then you find out the combat system is actually well done with good variety in combo routes and a convincing heft to attacks.

Would it steal the throne from GoW or Ninja Gaiden? No way, but it was a perfect pulpy weekend rental. Hell it's worth a quick play just for the corny in game dialogue.

When I got it for my PS3, I'd turned out to be getting increasingly burnt out on this style gaming, but I could tell it would have been my sort of game a couple of years before. The fanservice is pretty great, sometimes I think the secret of comedy lies within acting THIS seriously indeed. Pretty solid genre game.
In hindsight, of all purchased & unfinished TPP action games I've got for PS3, I might have derived most fun out of WET.

[Sima Tuna]

What about Resident Evil 6. Would you classify it as a character action game?

I classify it as shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit

Same.

Spoiler

I remember watching videos and let's plays of the game and thinking to myself, "damn, maybe I assumed RE6 was shit, but it's secretly good! Look at all these guys like Gaming Brit who shill this game! They can't all be wrong, can they? So the game is a little buggy, that's ok if the underlying systems are fantastic, right?"

It's shit. Total, complete shit. Even when you get past all the performance issues it had, and assuming you're playing on a modern console with one of the re-releases which (hopefully) fixes all the crashing, bugs, glitches, and other broken stuff... It's still a bad game.

RE6 wears every modern gaming sin proudly on its chest, and then doubles down by handling them worse than other modern games do. Enjoy scripted car chases? Time for scripted car chases where you can't see shit (due to high-contrast visuals, excessive blurring and obnoxious camera movement) and the segment functions as a glorified QTE, where failure = instant death. Like QTEs in general? Get ready to engage with them constantly, at every opportunity, including within main gameplay. Hope you're prepared for QTEs that can lock you into the "kill" animation before the prompt appears onscreen! Hell, it may never appear onscreen at all. Speaking of instant death, there are numerous set pieces (such as Chris climbing across a rope) which can kill you instantly in single-player with not a thing you can do about it. Since NOT dying requires your AI team member to protect you. Did I mention the party AI is worse than RE5 Sheva?

Did you like the fun, creative attache case system used in RE, RE2, RE3, RE4 and CVX? Capcom didn't. You now carry everything at all times. Which could have been ok... Except that the UI for accessing your various items looks awful and is slower in practice than the case.

Suplexing zombies is fun, isn't it? That's why Capcom made sure to add lots of zombies holding machine guns and hiding behind cover. Or flying in the air with machine guns. Or walking on giant chicken legs... Holding machine guns. Chris chapter 2 is a fantastic example of what happens when the Residence of Evil meets the Call of Duty.

Whatever other people saw in RE6, I honestly don't know. I can applaud its balls-out, everything-and-the-kitchen-sink ambition. But that's about it. There are so many scripted segments in RE6 where you have to mash A to not die, or press LR to not die, or alternate L+R to not die. Or you stun an enemy in gameplay and you want to run up for a suplex, but the moment you step out of cover, 84 machine guns light your ass up. Yeah yeah, slide into enemies. I've seen these pro players try that and still get shot in the ass mid-slide. So much random shit kills you in RE6. Half the time it's a fucking bug too, or a scripted set piece, rather than an enemy. But the other half of the time, it's usually some instant kill ability an enemy has. Many of the mutated nu-zombies-with-guns can transform their body parts at damage thresholds to add an instant-kill attack. Many of them.

Like Sonic 06, much of the game's content is repeated, reused and recycled across its multiple stories. Some praise the game for "loads of content," but most of that content is garbage. You'll fight the same enemies for the entire game. The only exception being when a new boss with a new instant kill attack gets introduced.

I wonder sometimes if people are so thirsty to label every game a hidden gem that they try to find the good even in the most wretched of the mainstream's garbage.

I did remember this one ps2 game called Nano Breaker. Seems like a DMC clone. No idea if it's any good. There's also Chaos Legion and Ghost Rider for ps2.

[Kriegor]

But a game can both be shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit and character action. There are pretty good examples here.

I’m not saying I would classify as it, just got curious. I always considered RE4 and 5 (and Mercenaries 3D)’s battle system as Final Fight reimagined in 3D. That would make RE6 Captain Commando (adds faster movement, an optional moving chain system, and expands cancel options through deathblow) centered around Knights of the Round’s directional “two-timing” parry mechanic. Just like the two of them though, it also ends up being slower, less energetic, than the very aggressive style of RE4/5/FF. You don’t combo throw your way out of the crowd, you move around, pick your fights and buff parries.

It's still strictly ground based so it depends where we draw the line. We’ve not quite reached the point where we could say we have the Alien vs. Predator of the Biohazard family (and since this arc is closed, we never will). It’s more free form (and less braindead) than Onimusha, but the feeling of old school beat’em up ‘s still stronger than something like DMC.

[Air Master Burst]

I’m not saying I would classify as it, just got curious. I always considered RE4 and 5 (and Mercenaries 3D)’s battle system as Final Fight reimagined in 3D.

To me that would apply more to something like Urban Reign, or SpikeOut, or if we're sticking to Capcom then even Dead Rising is closer than RE.

There's also Final Fight Streetwise if you wanna get literal, but the less said about that the better.

[Kriegor]

To me that would apply more to something like Urban Reign, or SpikeOut, or if we're sticking to Capcom then even Dead Rising is closer than RE.

There's also Final Fight Streetwise if you wanna get literal, but the less said about that the better.

Dynamite Deka 2, Fighting Force, SpikeOut, Streetwise... are not really reimagined. They're plainly transposed. And it doesn't work all that well because they are full 3D polygonal games.

Dead Rising is a completely different game. And this one is reaaaally bad (in terms of battle system). I'll never understand why they put so much iframes in Dead Rising, and deliberately because they didn't rebalance Dead Rising 2, outside "well, let's make a fuuuuun braindead game all about using every possible objects in the world to smash through a zombi horde".

[Air Master Burst]

Dead Rising is actually pretty close to Final Fight in moment-to-moment gameplay, since you're using a limited but powerful moveset for crowd management. Combat is all about mobility and abusing enemy patterns instead of combos. The time management on top of that makes for a truly sublime mix, it's probably the closest 3D experience to classic belt-scroller intensity you can get.

I didn't play much of that era of RE, but if 5 and 6 are anything like 4 they're shooters first, so maybe more comparable to something like Bucky O'Hare?

[Sima Tuna]

Spoiler

The melee combat in RE4 and 5 is entirely context-sensitive, minus the basic knife swing. In RE6, it's nearly as restrictive. You can slide into enemies to stumble them for melee attacks, or you can use some of your stamina resource to initiate a melee attack. Which will hopefully set up a context-sensitive action. There are counters, but these are essentially another QTE, to the point I believe you can't even do the counters if the prompt doesn't appear.

When everything is working as intended, then RE6 has a little bit of the character action feel to it. I'm thinking of Chris' first level, where you are plopped into arenas with machete-wielding The Raid rejects. That one part of the game is kinda fun. You can kit Chris out in nothing but the knife, and then chain a lot of context-sensitive actions (suplexes, knife kills, wind-up punches) from foe to foe. The counter system even works mostly as intended, since the enemies are using melee weapons. But RE6 has a big tonal whiplash problem and they go full Call of Duty in the very next chapter. If the entire game had been Chris level 1, then I'd say it would qualify as character action. Leon doesn't get to play that way at all, however. Jake and Chris are the only characters who get time spent on barehanded/melee level design. Leon's levels don't work for that style of play because the zombies are buggy as fuck and love to do invincible grab/jump attacks when you're close enough to them. Leon's enemies are horrible in general.

You also can't play melee/up close with most of the bosses. Many engage you from far away and others are just immune to the whole melee game mechanic.

The difference between RE6 and Vanquish is Vanquish's mechanics are supported by level design. I don't particularly like Vanquish, but its systems are interconnected. You use the slide system to enable the shooting. With RE6, you're either shooting or doing the melee/counter/slide stuff. It's exclusive. The only marriage of those two systems is being able to scoot on your ass while shooting, like a dog rubbing on the carpet.

RE6 Mercs could maybe be considered character action, but not the main game. The main game doesn't reward or encourage stylish play and all the random, buggy shit that happens drags down the skill ceiling of the game. Having said that, I know there are those who absolutely love RE6 and consider it every bit as much character action as Bayonetta. I just don't agree.

Dead Rising is an open world game. It's also a leveling game. Dead Rising is significantly easier at max level compared to base level. The difference in your hp and moveset at level 1 vs level 50 is stark.

[Air Master Burst]

Dead Rising is definitely not a character action game, I just think it happens to be much closer to a 3D version of belt-scrollers than fucking Resident Evil.

[Kriegor]

You can slide into enemies to stumble them for melee attacks, or you can use some of your stamina resource to initiate a melee attack. Which will hopefully set up a context-sensitive action.

This is definitely not what you want to do though. You usually shoot them then either go for a contextual melee if you need iframes right away (using your enemies as resources), like in 4 and 5, or either slide against their legs or cancel the contextual melee and punch them instead in order to achieve a hard stun. At this point, it's usually time to launch a frag or incendiary grenade.
Your method works but it costs a lot of stamina, is unreliable, keeps you vulnerable (no iframes on the resulting context-sensitive action) and the damage output is very low. Also you're going to get murdered by anything with a machine gun.

There are counters, but these are essentially another QTE, to the point I believe you can't even do the counters if the prompt doesn't appear.

You need the prompt. Not everything is counterable. Most patterns can be countered though, so it's easier to remember the exceptions (mainly tied to the bosses). And you usually buffer your counter (unless you need to stay mobile, like you're unsure if the enemy facing you will be the first one to attack) so you don't really wait for the prompt, you input your move ahead of it.

We're scraching the surface though. If I'd have to argue about it being a character action game, which I don't, I'd mostly talk about the numerous mobility options (sliding, diving, rolling, crouching, lying rolls, invulnerable quicksteps), the different cancels that leads out or in contextual actions and out of recovery frames (aim cancel, inventory cancel, weapon swap cancel, quickshot) and how the melee's options branch out.

But RE6 has a big tonal whiplash problem and they go full Call of Duty in the very next chapter.

You can still go knife only with Chris on chapter 2 in the hardest difficulty but you'll have to plan things crazy well. However, you can finish every enemies (including all the Nappads at the end) with throws and punches pretty easily as long as you set them up with gunfire first. One of my main grips with 6 is it's wayyyy too easy compared to 4 and 5. Even in Mercenaries, to the point that it's easier to get a full combo while keeping the boss for the end of the combo and succeed at that in 6 than it is to just kill the 150 enemies randomly (not chaining them or anything) in 5! It mostly killed the scoring scene in 6, with the remaining ones either fighting for every possible seconds or just playing it for fun.

Leon's levels don't work for that style of play because the zombies are buggy as fuck and love to do invincible grab/jump attacks when you're close enough to them. Leon's enemies are horrible in general.

This is just basic patterns. When a zombie faces you with his arms extanded (there are a lot of start-up frames so you see it coming unless you're not paying attention), he will grab you. You need to avoid him until he stops, or shoot a bullet in his head and throws him, or knife/shoot his extanded arms at which points he will turn around and you can slam him on the ground with a bulldog (not the animal, the wrestling move).
Jump attacks are not invincible. You can stop them mid jump with a headshot (even the red ones) or counter them. On dogs/standard zombies, the counters kill everyone in front of the PC as well (huge gratifying splash). On bloodshot, it's an instant kill.

Everything is very predictable and constant in this game. They even got rid of the few bits of RNG you find in 4 and 5 (every stun is always the same amount of bullets, the enemies that mutate are always the same). Only remains the critical hit chance for a headshot to instant kill.

You also can't play melee/up close with most of the bosses. Many engage you from far away and others are just immune to the whole melee game mechanic.

Most bosses have uncounterable attacks and counterable ones. But yeah, they restrict melee options a lot and they are really badly designed. The good ones are the mini bosses (the ones that come out of cocoons).

With RE6, you're either shooting or doing the melee/counter/slide stuff. It's exclusive. The only marriage of those two systems is being able to scoot on your ass while shooting, like a dog rubbing on the carpet.

RE4, 5 and 6 main selling point is exactly this mariage between shooting and meleeing. Think about the shooting as your jab, and the melee as your strike grabs. You're basically playing Haggar. Especially in 5 where the two combined with no breathing room.

[BIL]

I must say, I find the eternal battle for Hard Gayming Souls over RE6 to be invigorating Lots of estimable bros on either side.

TBH I'd take a punt if its THE MERCENARIES is up to snuff. RE4's THE MERCENARIES is a desert island pick for me, easily. Preposterously compulsive caravan bloodbath.

[Sima Tuna]

Spoiler

My point about needing the prompt to pop up to do the counter is that, RE6 being RE6, sometimes it just won't show up. Maybe you're not standing in the right spot. Maybe you are and the game is bugging out at the moment.

I'd like to know what part of the flying helicopter boss' attack pattern is melee counterable btw. I know you said the bosses are badly-designed, but I just wanted to reiterate how shitty they are. The gigantes ripoff in Chris Chapter 2 is abhorrent and then they make you fight multiple of them. Most bosses are a repetitive slog. I'm not counting what you call mini-bosses. I consider those upgraded normal enemies, like the Novistadors and blind Voldos in RE4. The charging lizards are fine and the frillbacks are mostly fine too (although it's yet another ranged enemy... At least it doesn't have a machine gun.) Hell, I'd go so far as to say the transformed egg enemies are some of the better ones. They more resemble the enemy design of RE4 and RE5, aka they're not some random asshole with a gun again.

I do not like the chicken walkers at all and I still think the prevalence of machine gunners is lame. RE4 was very careful about when to introduce projectile weapons (at least up until the very end of the Island). The big problem with all the guns is they're hitscan, of course. Getting hitscanned sucks even when the game showers you in herbs. It feels cheap on both ends.

My main problem with the zombies is they have no issue flying from offscreen to grab you. I'd have go back to play to see if the game gives you any indication (via audio) when this is about to happen. Maybe it's not as BS as I thought. I have had issues with the prompts not showing up on counters, and an offscreen flying zombie grab where the counter prompt bugs out feels pretty BS to me.

There are also scripted zombies in Leon's chapter which are 100% invincible (at first) and basically romhack themselves to grab you even if you're out of place when their event triggers. Which forces you to take unavoidable damage.

I guess I'm not super invested in whether or not RE6 is character action. RE6 mercs has scoring and incentivizes high skill play, while eliminating the most scripted and BS parts of the game (the playable cutscene shit I can't stand, like the motorcycle segment or jeep turret.) I still think RE6 is bad as a whole. Maybe the version you played wasn't nearly as buggy and riddled with performance issues as the one I slogged through. A lot of shit that was clearly supposed to work a certain way, just didn't for me.

[drauch]

I feel like this is the most anyone has ever discussed RE6 legitimately

I could see having fun with it, but I can't distance myself from the initial disappointment of what they did to my boy.

[Air Master Burst]

I could see having fun with it, but I can't distance myself from the initial disappointment of what they did to my boy.

Funny, this has always been my exact reaction to RE4.

[Kriegor]

My point about needing the prompt to pop up to do the counter is that, RE6 being RE6, sometimes it just won't show up. Maybe you're not standing in the right spot. Maybe you are and the game is bugging out at the moment.

Certain counters have such a brief timing, around 5 frames, you notice the prompt only if you play it frame by frame. These really needs to be buffered (by aim cancelling).
It's also possible you're not positionned carefully. It's not an omnidirectional counter. Stairs can be tricky.

And last possibilities is you're on recovery frames. If you perform a melee move, swap your weapons, use your herbs, dodge, most things actually, you have more recovery frames than you might suspect, especially since certain actions can cancel them but will then put you on active frames where you cannot counter either.

There are tricks to cancel out of these like opening and closing the inventory. You might want to weapon swap cancel then inventory cancel the recovery frames of your last cancel and perform a counter (which is all doable in a stupidly limited amount of frames, like you can do all that after the enemy has started his attack but before he has landed it).

It's a lot of hidden knowledge to grasp, but there's nothing left to randomness.

Chris's knife also tends to confuse beginners because attacking with the knife doesn't prevent you from countering. But it's the only exception. It makes the knife nice training wheels and it's well balanced around the knife's poor damage, this specific counter being quite weak, and of course the range making it unappropriate for creating reliable iframes opportunities.

The knife also sports instant iframes options through the back and sidedashes. These are soooo short but when you see a player go through an explosion with that, you know you're playing with a pro!!

That's a thing RE6 has going for it 5 doesn't. They made playable characters more distinct. Many people assume Jake is the melee centric character but Chris is stronger in melee. And most people ignore half of Jake's moveset.

I do not like the chicken walkers at all

I like them. They are quite complex with different patterns depending on their positions relative to yours (if you're at a distance, in front of them, behind them...), and there's no definitive better way to dispose of them. Yet they do react differently to all of your options (they have two different stun status and can fall). They could be more agressive though. Javos are really not agressive enough compared to plagas parasited enemies in 4 and 5.

Getting hitscanned sucks even when the game showers you in herbs.

I agree. Throwing weapons and crossbows in 4 and 5 are a lot more interesting since you can cancel these bullets.
To mitigate this problem, 6 does have an interesting way to handle firearms' damage since your health bar is divided in 6 sections and you slowly recover any damage taken unless you've lost an entire section. Most of the time, it's irrelevant, since a melee attack will at the very least inflict 1/6th damage. But you need to take more than that from firearms. So as long as you quickly setup iframes moves, you can use your enemies as resources to recover that damage.

A big mistake when playing RE6 is relying on its cover system. It's very weak, blurs the screen, forces you to spend bullets by the dozens. It's a last resource situation. There are a few times when it's useful, but most of the time, you need to rush your enemies, and either fish for counters or setup them for throws. You need to move fast and constantly and maximises the amount of time you spend being invincible.

Taking cover and using non contextual melee for dealing damage are really the biggest mistakes most people makes when entering RE6 (especially if they have no prior experience with RE4 or RE5). This is not Max Payne 3.

[drauch]

I could see having fun with it, but I can't distance myself from the initial disappointment of what they did to my boy.

Funny, this has always been my exact reaction to RE4.

I do love RE4, but that's fair; I get it. I mean, I hate the direction the series went afterwards and do blame RE4 for it, and once you get to the island with all the machine gun doods and the Krauser knife fight it starts to wear me out, because it feels just like I'm fighting regular bros, despite them being plaga'd. I appreciate that it keeps the horror intact thematically though, which I can't say for 6. The inclusion of a partner in 5 removes any tension, and from my recollection most of it is in the daylight, so yeah.

[Volteccer_Jack]

"Character action" is a meaningless unhelpful descriptor, but I will say that regardless of its quality, RE6 is most at home in a thread like this. It is a 3D action game first, a shooter second, and horror third. It seems like a game that fans of Mercenaries mode would probably love. I am not a Mercenaries enjoyer though, so I can't say I was very invested in it.

It's hard to explain exactly the difference in how the games feel to play. The two games are very different despite belonging to the same subgenre. DMC has RE as its basis in game design, whereas Ninja Gaiden... Who even knows? I couldn't find any info on Itagaki's inspiration for the series, other than a general philosophy of wanting a fast-paced, difficult, rewarding game.

Ninja Gaiden draws heavily from 3D fighting games (directed by the DOA guy) while DMC3/4/5 draw heavily from 2D fighting games (directed by the Capcom vs SNK guy). S'why Ninja Gaiden places emphasis on the choice of which move to use in a situation while DMC3/4/5 focus more on positioning and spacing.

Looking at RE to explain DMC3/4/5 is a red herring. While DMC1 began as RE4 and was made by RE devs, the DMC1 devteam had nothing whatsoever to do with any of the sequels. You'd have a hard time finding a single person who worked on both DMC1 and DMC3.

In terms of combat design, NGB has more in common with DMC1 than DMC3 does. DMC1 and NGB lock your facing at the start of an attack string, and attacks in general are very committal. Air options are extremely limited. Ninpo and Devil Trigger are extreme high-power options used to eliminate specific problems or escape mistakes. On the other hand, DMC3 lets Dante freely aim any attack in a string in any direction, giving him full range of motion even while attacking, and nearly any move can be cancelled into any of over a dozen options. Dante has a full suite of air abilities and is fully capable of staying in the air for extended periods while maintaining combat effectiveness. DMC3 Devil Trigger is a minor buff which doesn't make a big impact unless you spend your entire supply all at once. In both DMC1 and NGB, enemies are fragile, but deadly. Combat is about killing enemies, quickly and efficiently, emphasized by DMC1's DMD mode adding a timer to battles. In DMC3, enemies are weak but tend to be tanky. When DMC3 wants to make things harder, it gives enemies more HP and super armor. Combat is about controlling enemies, usually by knocking them around. The fact that knocking them down over and over eventually causes them to die is almost incidental, in fact both the style point system and the DMD DT mechanic discourage you from killing enemies too quickly.

Kind of cool how DMC1 influenced so much stuff in so many games, yet nothing, not even the official sequels, play like it does. The nearest successor to DMC1's design ethos is Viewtiful Joe, and it's a side-scroller.

[BIL]

Character Action always makes me think of "Personal Action," aka taunts from later Capcom/SNK fighters.

I couldn't believe the luxury of DS1's shields, and even if DS2 is much more assholic about crowding during stages and bosses alike, it too is way, way kinder about letting you wait for openings behind block.

People actually use the stupid shields and heavy armor?

I personally prefer playing with shields because I feel the stamina system makes less sense without. I like the risk/reward trade off of lowering defense for faster stamina recovery vs keeping it up. Reminds me of Biometal a bit.

Hell yeah! I was also thinking of Psyvariar a lot, during my DS1 playthroughs, riding that green bar to the brink of exhaustion and sudden death. You have a metered "invincible" state, but it's not merely for hiding behind. You certainly can do that, but it accomplishes nothing towards the goal of destroying the enemy, and you'll quickly run out of juice.

It's far better deployed aggressively, using it to invade and occupy the enemy's space, eating reprisals that'd send you sprawling if not kill you outright. Versus monstrous but decidedly "duellist" bosses like Artorias and Malus, combined with the input buffering, it felt almost like having an Alpha Counter. Eating a monstrous hit *KTANNG* then punishing it with a quick string in the same heartbeat.

It's formally easier than Bloodborne's evasion, but by no means cheesy or cheap-feeling. And as always with DS1, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from going zweihand, or ditching the shield entirely.

And to be honest, even deliberately eating bone-jarring hits that send your character flying, like Kalameet's tail swipe, while BB's equivalents like Larry's BURNING LARIATO have to be dodged, I'd no regrets whatsoever.

To tell you the truth, that shit felt good.

I'm in the pro-shield camp for sure. They add to the meter management and decision-making, and they don't really change the overall difficulty; you're just spending stamina to make timing easier or maintain positioning. High-end shields like Greatshield of Artorias are a bit OP but they also have high-end requirements to balance that. I think the positioning aspect is the main reason Bloodborne drops them, it wants very much for the player to stay on the move in combat. The 2 shields that do exist are primarily used to stop ranged attacks and thus allow the player to move more freely.

I actually did a couple runs with the Loch Shield, just prior to starting DS1, and wished I'd discovered it earlier. Little did I know the surprisingly novel approach of holding L1 to eat pesky incoming Arcane fire was a tiny shard of DS!

A tale of woe: The Assassination of Wilhelm by the Scrub Biruford
preceded by
Dude, where's my block button?

I see lots of Reddit noobs whine about getting 1shot by Mico's Call Beyond, LS band-aids that nicely. Though really, versus any mansized CPU enemy, BeastRoar is all you need.

In Miyazaki's usual good form, I like how you get the LS right before Blue Man Group The Revengeance - although tbh, you're just as well-off hiding behind the big blue homies (and Mr. Giant Lumenwood) themselves, when they go all ave ave stella.

Blue cheeks don't crack!

Spoiler

[Squire Grooktook]

RE: RE6

My big problem with RE6 is that while it has a cool moveset (flopping around while shooting looks and feels good), nothing in the game really makes you use it in any meaningful way. Mercenaries mode basically boils down to playing the game exactly the same as RE4 Mercenaries, except now you're spamming parry qte counters (AKA the LEAST interesting new addition).

Game sucks.

Ninja Gaiden draws heavily from 3D fighting games (directed by the DOA guy) while DMC3/4/5 draw heavily from 2D fighting games (directed by the Capcom vs SNK guy). S'why Ninja Gaiden places emphasis on the choice of which move to use in a situation while DMC3/4/5 focus more on positioning and spacing.

I actually disagree a fair bit on this one: Ninja Gaiden has a much bigger emphasis on positioning and spacing than Devil May Cry IMO. Enemies being able to do "mix ups" with grapples when you get too defensive means the game does a much better job of forcing you to constantly stay on the move and mind your spacing against both single target bosses and mobs.

Honestly I'd characterize it completely opposite. Devil May Cry is the game about using a toybox of various moves to find increasingly creative ways to continuously damage enemies/bosses while nullifying their attacks.

[Air Master Burst]

Ninja Gaiden also has a much bigger emphasis on memorizing strict (and often complex) combo chains, while DMC lets you improvise more. Part of why I never really got on with 3D Ninja Gaiden games; I don't even trust belt-scrollers with more than 3 buttons.

That ridiculous NG3 move list gives me fucking anxiety.

[Squire Grooktook]

Ninja Gaiden also has a much bigger emphasis on memorizing strict (and often complex) combo chains, while DMC lets you improvise more. Part of why I never really got on with 3D Ninja Gaiden games; I don't even trust belt-scrollers with more than 3 buttons.

That ridiculous NG3 move list gives me fucking anxiety.

Eh, I wouldn't say so.

A lot of the combo chains are just for filler or show. Most weapons have like 2 or 3 short strings which are what you're going to be using 90% of the game.

Ninja Gaiden 2 ESPECIALLY because the obliteration system makes the game absurdly lethal and you're often killing enemies in 2 hits.