Devil May Cry [PS2] + R2VKMF: Polygonal Action Daishingeki

[it290]

PN03 is one of those games that makes me feel like an elitist by the mere fact that I have played it.

I feel this way about Cosmic Smash whenever anyone starts talking about how dope Virtua Tennis was.

That's the best defense of P.N.03 I've ever seen that wasn't just from a weird crazy rando on a forum like me. I've always preferred it over Viewtiful Joe, Killer7, and RE4. Does anyone know how well it plays in Dolphin?

I've owned this game and have loved it since it came out! It plays quite well in Dolphin and in fact I recommend playing it this way since the original visuals look a little rough these days—those clean minimal lines aren't really suited to the Gamecube's native resolution—but the same aspects of the visual design mean it upscales beautifully since it's hardly texture-dependent at all. Definitely recommend giving it a go!

[Air Master Burst]

So if anyone decides they want to play MOTHERFUCKING NINJA BLADE on PC, Steam delisted it earlier this year. It's still available on GMG, but for how long is anyone's guess, so get it while you can! Found a couple guides that supposedly get it running on Windows 10 pretty well, so tomorrow we'll find out if that's actually the case. It's not a great game, but it's fun, and as far as sheer spectacle goes NINJA BLADE beats pretty much anything in the genre that isn't Asura's Wrath (and I guess the RE5 boulder punch). Speaking of, Asura's Wrath desperately needs an HD port too.

It plays quite well in Dolphin and in fact I recommend playing it this way since the original visuals look a little rough these days—those clean minimal lines aren't really suited to the Gamecube's native resolution—but the same aspects of the visual design mean it upscales beautifully since it's hardly texture-dependent at all. Definitely recommend giving it a go!

Music to my ears!

[Sima Tuna]

I never played ninja blade, actually.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsqiwlRo7f4

Looks like this souls game youtuber didn't like it. Should I take that as an endorsement of the title's quality?

[Air Master Burst]

NINJA BLADE is like the raddest game ever made. A bit janky and full of QTEs but holy shit what a ride. It's basically the video game equivalent of Bad Boys 2: not great by any objective metric, but if you don't absolutely adore it you clearly have no soul.

ETA a couple days later:

It's a bit of a pain getting NINJA BLADE to work but it does, now I just need an official xbox controller because fuck M+KB for this. Finally pulled the trigger (paddles?) and ordered a V2 Elite since I've always wanted to see if the back paddles help style switching in DMC. I really wanted a Dualshock style with back paddles but Scuf seems... unreliable at best.

Also, speaking of DMC, holy shit is the HD collection a fucking inept set of ports. DMC1 has fully desynced audio for every cut scene and a bunch of the textures are pixelated to shit. DMC3 seems fine, though, so I'll call it a win since I can always just emulate DMC1. Of course I didn't even try to boot up DMC2, because who the fuck even cares about how well that trash heap runs.

ETA2: I realize NINJA BLADE is also one of the most inept ports I've seen, but NINJA BLADE was ported to PC by From in the 00s before they blew up and got all that Souls money. DMC HD is a collection of one of their most beloved franchises ported by Capcom in 2018, and they didn't even try to fix it despite the console versions having been broken since like 2012. Supremely lazy, and extra disappointing given how good the PC ports of 4 and 5 turned out.

[Volteccer_Jack]

I've explained everything there is to Sekiro's fighting system.

What do I need to be as good as I at Ninja Gaiden?
Mash rolljump constantly
Do Flying Swallow over and over until the ranged enemies are dead
Do UT over and over until the remaining enemies are dead

And that's it. I've explained everything there is to Ninja Gaiden's fighting system. Now obviously getting a high karma score like me requires learning how to do UTs over and over even against the enemies with ranged attacks. But yes, UTs, literal fucking cutscenes, are the only awesomely complex mechanic I had to master.

Double standards are fun! I had more typed but this comment of yours makes me think that constructive conversation simply won't happen with you, so better not to waste effort.

PS--The claims that guard flying is "very complex" and "high risk" are both blatantly false.
"Very complex": It's a 3 button sequence, no more complex than using shuriken cancelling to guard or dash in NG. Perform a move that gives Dante speed, jump-cancel the move with Enemy Step, then quickly guard-cancel the jump. It's that simple, if you read the previous sentence, congrats you know how guard flying is done. I've seen more than a couple people do it entirely by accident, simply trying to guard after a poorly timed divekick. Dante's BnB combos in MvC3 are much more difficult
"high risk": Guard flying is literally performed by guarding.

But the most important part of these games is the pressure placed on you by enemies and bosses to make the most of that toolset to begin with, and Itsuno's games consistently lack in exciting enemy design

I think an important distinction here is that enemy designs being good or bad is hardly the only factor in whether a game can place pressure on you.

Outside of an incredible final boss, none of the enemy designs in Vanquish are very thrilling. But Vanquish, especially on God Hard, is easily one of the most exciting games I've ever played, despite relatively uninteresting enemies. On the other hand, NG2 is not very good about putting pressure on me to get the most out of my toolset. Ryu is significantly upgraded from NGB while his enemies are downgraded. Even incendiary shuriken ninjas are chumps in NG2 compared to NGB. I'm much more relaxed fighting in NG2 than in either NGB or Razor's Edge. This is a major contributor to why the second half of NG2 feels like a big waste of time to me (that and the game obviously should have culminated at the staircase fight instead of limping on for hours more). I think enemy designs in DMC4 and 5 are quite strong for the most part, but they tend not to be all that aggressive; the player is expected to exert pressure rather than feel it.

PN03 never clicked with me though (which is sad to admit as a huge fan of Mikami's games). Its action felt bland and simple all the way through, very rote.

It is definitely the most memorization focused 3D action game I have devoted time to. And quite simple compared to much of the genre, in terms of complexity it sits closer to something like Shinobi/Nightshade, although absolutely not in playstyle. P.N.03 puts you in control of an elephant and then sits back expectantly, waiting for your ballet routine; the challenge (and fun) is in controlling the character. There isn't a game on this planet where dodging an enemy attack feels as good to me as it does in P.N.03. The no-damage Papillon run is exciting and fun in a way no-damage runs very rarely ever are.

and yep, it runs great in Dolphin!

I never played ninja blade, actually.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsqiwlRo7f4

Looks like this souls game youtuber didn't like it. Should I take that as an endorsement of the title's quality?

He makes reasonable complaints and the game definitely tests the player's patience at times. I'm not sure if he even mentioned it but the enemy designs are the worst in the business. "Soulless and uninspired" though is where I draw the line, Ninja Blade is anything but. It's the quintessential B-movie of gaming, and it provides an experience you will get nowhere else.

Consider my favorite mechanic, Ninja Vision, a sort of combination Eagle Vision/Devil Trigger. While active it highlights interactables in the environment including projectiles (handy for the stealthy projectiles, no that's not a joke), shows enemy health bars, slows down time slightly, and increases the damage you inflict, but it also doubles incoming damage. There's one important feature to this mechanic which is absolutely wild: using it tires your character's eyes. Whenever you deactivate Ninja Vision, the entire screen becomes very blurry for a short period of time, and the longer you use Ninja Vision the longer the blurriness will last afterward. This is a game where a normal and explicitly developer-intended part of combat is blinding yourself and timing it to occur when you won't be in danger. But of course true ninja masters fight comfortably even without crutches like sight

It's a little disturbing how solid the combat mechanics are, it's a game that really seems like they shouldn't be . There are three VERY distinct weapons, which can be switched on-the-fly. ALL attacks including air attacks can be instantly cancelled by blocking, in most cases at ANY point in the animation, and blocking itself doesn't have recovery time, so combat revolves around guard-cancelling to a large extent. The majority of your moveset is available directly out of a block, letting you mix and match and string together whatever moves you want. I did score runs and other challenges back in the day; the fact that it scores you partly on QTE success, and has a Hard setting for the QTEs specifically, is hilarious to me.

[Sima Tuna]

Outside of an incredible final boss, none of the enemy designs in Vanquish are very thrilling. But Vanquish, especially on God Hard, is easily one of the most exciting games I've ever played, despite relatively uninteresting enemies. On the other hand, NG2 is not very good about putting pressure on me to get the most out of my toolset. Ryu is significantly upgraded from NGB while his enemies are downgraded. Even incendiary shuriken ninjas are chumps in NG2 compared to NGB. I'm much more relaxed fighting in NG2 than in either NGB or Razor's Edge. This is a major contributor to why the second half of NG2 feels like a big waste of time to me (that and the game obviously should have culminated at the staircase fight instead of limping on for hours more). I think enemy designs in DMC4 and 5 are quite strong for the most part, but they tend not to be all that aggressive; the player is expected to exert pressure rather than feel it.

I find it interesting you'd say that enemies are weaker in NG2 compared to NGB, because all of the opinions I've seen elsewhere on the internet are the exact opposite. Even the "pro" players will say stuff like "NG2 lives up to the tagline 'die slower than your opponent.'" As I've said, I don't have a lot of experience with NG2 or Sigma 2, so I can't say with authority. But it does seem to me that certain basic enemies were upgraded rather than downgraded in the shift from NG1 mechanics to NG2 mechanics. Mages, for example, now have that nasty pillar attack, whereas they're kind of toothless in NGB. NG2 also throws much denser crowds at you.

I guess the question is if the enemy upgrades matter all that much. Or do you mean that Ryu so much more powerful than the enemies are still weaker on balance?

I've just never heard anyone say they were "more relaxed" fighting in NG2 than NG Black. One of the things I actually prefer about NG Black/Sigma is the slower pace allows my snail brain time to strategize.

[Kriegor]

What do I need to be as good as I at Ninja Gaiden?
Mash rolljump constantly
Do Flying Swallow over and over until the ranged enemies are dead
Do UT over and over until the remaining enemies are dead

The thing is, if you program an AI, and you tell it to do UT over and over, it's just going to be murdered. It will never have the chance to charge anything. For it to works, you either need proper spacing, or souls. If we're talking proper spacing, it's quite complicated because most enemies are very fast and/or attack at range. If we're going the souls way, first you need to generate the resources, then you still need proper spacing anyway. If you're landing too far for your OLUT, you won't be in reach, you won't be able to release the damn thing without losing your charge, and most enemies will outrange you while you're standing there like an idiot.

If you program an AI to spam FS, it will get murdered during the recovery frames.

In Sekiro, if you program an AI with my routine, you're almost good to go (in battle scenarios). You don't need to teach it how to move, you don't need to teach it how to attack. It's like programming an AI to beat Guitar Hero.

I do think UT is too prevalent in the Ninja Gaiden, especially in 2 where the following cinematic is very long and gets boring very quickly, but heavy chaining instant UT still requires good positionning and anticipation. And then you have Razor's Edge, where it's not only much weaker (and faster), it actually resets your multiplier.

I had more typed but this comment of yours makes me think that constructive conversation simply won't happen with you, so better not to waste effort.

Oh, that's a shame. I'm enjoying our conversation. I would have loved to read more.

PS--The claims that guard flying is "very complex" and "high risk" are both blatantly false.
"Very complex": It's a 3 button sequence, no more complex than using shuriken cancelling to guard or dash in NG. Perform a move that gives Dante speed, jump-cancel the move with Enemy Step, then quickly guard-cancel the jump. It's that simple, if you read the previous sentence, congrats you know how guard flying is done. I've seen more than a couple people do it entirely by accident, simply trying to guard after a poorly timed divekick. Dante's BnB combos in MvC3 are much more difficult
"high risk": Guard flying is literally performed by guarding.

And Jump Cancelling is just pressing jump right after pressing attack while being closed to the enemy in the air. It's not doing it one time without context that is hard, it's using it effectively. You brought this point with a video showcasing how you could stay in the air and move around Sanctus patterns with RGI, and this is both very hard and very risky. There are just much simpler and effective ways to deal with him. Its purpose is making cool videos.

[Volteccer_Jack]

I find it interesting you'd say that enemies are weaker in NG2 compared to NGB, because all of the opinions I've seen elsewhere on the internet are the exact opposite. Even the "pro" players will say stuff like "NG2 lives up to the tagline 'die slower than your opponent.'" As I've said, I don't have a lot of experience with NG2 or Sigma 2, so I can't say with authority. But it does seem to me that certain basic enemies were upgraded rather than downgraded in the shift from NG1 mechanics to NG2 mechanics. Mages, for example, now have that nasty pillar attack, whereas they're kind of toothless in NGB. NG2 also throws much denser crowds at you.

There's more enemies for sure. And mages in particular are satanic in NG2, I'll grant you that. I recall one of the NG2 experts saying something like "If John Wick spawns in you should still worry about the mage first" . But most enemies are weaker. Enemies are less grab-happy while they have their limbs, delimbed enemies are essentially harmless if you just jump away from them once or twice (except mages of course). Delimbing effectively means all enemies have drastically reduced health. Even things like incendiary shuriken explosions being nerfed to be blockable. I DO think Ryu's buffs are the main culprit though. If you put NG2 Ryu into NGB, he would probably demolish that game.

The reason I find NG2 more relaxed is that I think less when I play it. When I play NG2 it's just simple crowd control tactics, I don't need to worry about details or strategy. A million ninjas run at me and their individuality hardly matters, I can play on autopilot and as long as I avoid being dogpiled my victory is inevitable. When I play NGB I have to concentrate on each enemy individually, and if I slip for even a moment I expect to be instantly punished. There's a savepoint in NGB that has 3 incendiary shuriken ninjas attacking you the moment you load your game, and I go out of my way to avoid using it because 3 ninjas is a significant battle in NGB. (the respawning enemies and lack of checkpoints in NGB contribute too)

Kriegor words:

Spoiler

You brought this point with a video showcasing how you could stay in the air and move around Sanctus patterns with RGI, and this is both very hard and very risky.

Guard flying is easy to perform and it has basically zero risk for reasons I already explained and you have chosen to blatantly ignore. The gif in question was only selected to look funny to make my point. It does not show efficient tactical use of the ability but merely the possibilities. It's from the first youtube search result. It's also obviously not being used as a serious battle strategy in that clip. Dante doesn't even fight that boss except in Bloody Palace.

If you program an AI to spam FS, it will get murdered during the recovery frames.

Maybe in NGB, but properly executed FS is essentially untouchable in NG2 because of the absurd buffs the move got. I once beat an entire Chapter of Master Ninja mode using nothing but Flying Swallow just to see if the game would stop me. Unless you're fighting Genshin, it won't.

heavy chaining instant UT still requires good positionning and anticipation

no it doesn't

[Sima Tuna]

I find it interesting you'd say that enemies are weaker in NG2 compared to NGB, because all of the opinions I've seen elsewhere on the internet are the exact opposite. Even the "pro" players will say stuff like "NG2 lives up to the tagline 'die slower than your opponent.'" As I've said, I don't have a lot of experience with NG2 or Sigma 2, so I can't say with authority. But it does seem to me that certain basic enemies were upgraded rather than downgraded in the shift from NG1 mechanics to NG2 mechanics. Mages, for example, now have that nasty pillar attack, whereas they're kind of toothless in NGB. NG2 also throws much denser crowds at you.

There's more enemies for sure. And mages in particular are satanic in NG2, I'll grant you that. I recall one of the NG2 experts saying something like "If John Wick spawns in you should still worry about the mage first" . But most enemies are weaker. Enemies are less grab-happy while they have their limbs, delimbed enemies are essentially harmless if you just jump away from them once or twice (except mages of course). Delimbing effectively means all enemies have drastically reduced health. Even things like incendiary shuriken explosions being nerfed to be blockable. I DO think Ryu's buffs are the main culprit though. If you put NG2 Ryu into NGB, he would probably demolish that game.

The reason I find NG2 more relaxed is that I think less when I play it. When I play NG2 it's just simple crowd control tactics, I don't need to worry about details or strategy. A million ninjas run at me and their individuality hardly matters, I can play on autopilot and as long as I avoid being dogpiled my victory is inevitable. When I play NGB I have to concentrate on each enemy individually, and if I slip for even a moment I expect to be instantly punished. There's a savepoint in NGB that has 3 incendiary shuriken ninjas attacking you the moment you load your game, and I go out of my way to avoid using it because 3 ninjas is a significant battle in NGB. (the respawning enemies and lack of checkpoints in NGB contribute too)

Interesting. I definitely think NG2 is waaaay more generous with resources. You can't carry as many items at a time, but you get free heals at save points + passive hp regen between combats. Neither of those exist in NGB/Sigma. So each battle in NGB becomes a test of your ability not just to clear, but to clear with minimum damage. I don't know if the more generous resources make NG2/Sigma 2 easier than NGB/Sigma. I need to play more.

I agree with you that the context-sensitive instant kills effectively cut the hp of enemies way down, since you're fighting to delimb rather than kill in most cases. The first delimb seals the deal, which may also be why enemies in Sigma 2 are substantially more resistant to delimbing.

If you program an AI to spam FS, it will get murdered during the recovery frames.

Maybe in NGB, but properly executed FS is essentially untouchable in NG2 because of the absurd buffs the move got. I once beat an entire Chapter of Master Ninja mode using nothing but Flying Swallow just to see if the game would stop me. Unless you're fighting Genshin, it won't.

Also interesting. I did notice that FS got a big upgrade in NG2. Well, two big upgrades. The first is that Flying Swallow will now trigger without an enemy target, which both eliminates the accidental helm splitter inputs and ensures your position coming out of FS will be accurate every time. The other big upgrade is most weapons have an FS, which dramatically improves one's ability to spam the fuck out of it. I'm not sure how I feel about that, honestly. Did the claws really need an FS? Did the dual swords need an FS? It already felt a little gratuitous in Sigma how many weapons could Flying Swallow (at least 4, by my count). If you count extra characters as "weapons" then Ayane and Momiji can FS in Sigma 2 iirc.

Ninja Gaiden Black and Sigma have both enemies and bosses who can hard counter FS spam (motorcycles, upgraded army guys with shields IF their shields are out, dinos, berserkers, some bosses) but I haven't seen enemies that autoblock FS in Ninja Gaiden 2 or Sigma 2.

Then you have shit like FS into Izuna Drop in NG2.

[Volteccer_Jack]

A big thing is that once you upgrade a given weapon to level 2 and get access to the Flying Swallow followups, you no longer land on the ground in recovery after the initial strike. Instead you bounce off and fall to ground, which makes it safer and also gives you access to on-landing options, which in the case of the Dragon Sword, includes a spin attack to counter punish attempts.

[Air Master Burst]

So if anyone is really into DMC, I HIGHLY recommend getting a controller with back paddles. I got the Xbox Elite Series 2 today, and being able to switch Dante's styles without claw gripping is SMOKIN' SICK! Just keep in mind some of the custom companies have restrictions on what you can bind to the paddles, so if you can't set them to the d-pad you might be out of luck.

Can't wait to try out DMC3 with the style switch mod.

[Sima Tuna]

Does anyone think Hotline Miami qualifies as a PAD game? It's technically 3d-2d, with full 3d movement and aiming. It has a combo system that rewards chaining and score chasing. It's not a static arena game like Smash TV and there's no scrolling like some top-down shooters. The game uses a campaign/level structure comparable to your devil may crys and ninja gaidens.

I'll be back to grinding NG when a new xbox 360 controller arrives.

[Air Master Burst]

It's technically 3d-2d, with full 3d movement and aiming.

Is it? I don't recall any sort of verticality.

[dojo_b]

Loving the discussion here, folks. Beat-em-ups and rich combat systems have never been any kind of strength of mine, but this thread makes me want to change that. I'm thinking of DMC5 or one of the NG Master Collection games next (on PC). Very open to suggestions. My most closely-relevant recent experience is a God of War 2018 playthrough (Give Me a Challenge). Bounced off DMC3 despite its obvious charms because I'm a bit obtuse about weird camera angles and older UIs.

On a feudal-Japan kick after the Shigurui manga (BIL's excellent rec), I just finished a Sekiro playthrough with the utmost pleasure. It basically removed or dialed back everything that didn't matter to me in Dark Souls 1 (build variety, spellcasters, irksome questions about whether and how much to grind), while carrying on the tradition of everything I loved there. Also discouraged my instinctively cowardly, poke-y approach to boss fights, and pushed me toward genuine and satisfying swordplay, for those Posture-based deathblows. (I have to say it was NOT easy for me and I need a more-casual next game.)

After two playthroughs I've still barely engaged with the Combat Arts and Prosthetic tools, so there's plenty left to explore.
But the game also didn't give me any illusion of being skilled enough to truly take on multiple enemies at once, and didn't in any way seem to encourage that. For me the perceptual challenges of 3D, and the sheer pleasure of watching Fromsoft bosses in action, make it natural to focus on careful observation and pattern-learning. It's definitely not very tactical as I approach it, which is fine, but does make me curious about games with a more overpowered protagonist having scope to creatively steer larger melees. So... Dante, Ryu, or someone else?

[Air Master Burst]

I'm thinking of DMC5 or one of the NG Master Collection games next (on PC).

I wouldn't recommend the PC versions of NG (excpet maybe 3, I've never tried it) because you only get the shitty Sigma versions. The ports themselves are mostly competent, although controller remapping is pretty iffy and there's no M+KB support whatsoever.

DMC4 and 5 have very good PC versions and are both on sale on Steam right now. I personally feel like they're much better games, too, but honestly you can't go wrong with either franchise (except DMC2).

[dojo_b]

I wouldn't recommend the PC versions of NG (excpet maybe 3, I've never tried it) because you only get the shitty Sigma versions.

Thanks! I do have 2 and 3 for x360, slight PITA to dust off but certainly doable, at least after I wrap my head around the version differences.

[Air Master Burst]

Digging into my PS2 collection I found the following games worthy of mention here:

Gungrave: Shooting-based character action. Character designs done by the Trigun and the Sakura Wars artists, very nice cel-shaded look. Panned by reviewers at the time for being too short and having no replay value apart from scoring, so it should be appreciated much better around here. All the characters have names like "Bob Poundmax" and "Balladbird Lee" so you should have a pretty good idea of what you're getting into here. Also has a PS2-only sequel which is also pretty good.

Bujingai: Very pretty Wuxia style game. Apparently the main character is actually modeled on GACKT, who is some Japanese pop musician or somesuch. Probably the best animations of any PS2 character action game before DMC3. The wall run is fun, the goofy float-dash thing looks cool as shit but is incredibly impractical. Haven't played it since 2006 or so, but I'm eager to dig into it again.

10,000 Bullets: More shooting-based character action. This one is a bit closer to Stranglehold or Dead to Rights, but with a flashy combo system and different unlockable skills that change up how your character handles a decent bit. Bosses are really cool, with some great attacks. I think it's the only bullet time game from that era that actually shows all the individual bullets when you slow time down, but I could be wrong about that. It definitely looks a lot better than Dead to Rights or Max Payne! Levels are a bit dull, but you probably won't have a ton of time to pay attention to that, it can get fairly hectic.

[Sima Tuna]

Gungrave is cool. Gungrave: Overdose was the sequel and it added some extra playable characters. It's pretty jank but very fun.

[copy-paster]

Lament Of Innocence (or simply "Castlevania" in Japan - "MUCHI ACTION GAME," informs the back cover ) is a tragic case of a first-rate 3D combat engine stuck in boxy, flat, repetitive maps straight outta 1992. It's a crying shame that IGA was so busy slagging off the N64 Castlevanias while tonguing Kamiya's bung, he completely ignored the soaring lethal heights of KCET's games and turned in a pancake. Combine their perilous stage design with LOI's crisp battling, and you'd have a genuinely strong 3D portrayal of the classic CV Treachery Platformer.

Having said all this, I still like LOI. That combat engine really is DMC-calibre; it took a while for the rest of the industry to catch up to Kamiya, and this was one of the first to rival its precision face-shattering violence, as well as the joy of shaving past lethal blows with precision evades.

Your thoughts completely sold me, playing LOI now on PCSX2+upscale+widescreen still looking good the lightning is spot-on. I'm at anti-soul lab yet (great OST so jammin') and I agree about the combat is so much fun at the cost of boxy, CTRL+V'd maps though I don't really mind combat and excellent dash alone is good enough. I wonder if the boxy map was intentional so the game wouldn't be said as DMC wannabe, but the jump mechanics is very good and with the tight platforming it could've been true DMC rival. Also regarding of dashing you need to press R1+X+directions but the R2 also used to guard and dash too like WTF they could've been use it for dash activation, not that I have a problem doing the former.

Did you know that standing at specific spot before the very first save room, you can duplicate items infinitely? Looks like KCET forgot to disable this "debug" in NA version.

[Air Master Burst]

LOI is a banger for sure, I played it a good bit back in the day. Never tried Curse of Darkness though, is it more of the same?

[copy-paster]

Honestly it plays really boring shit as you can see in this gameplay sample: rooms are huge but there's like 2 enemies onscreen, enemies took 30 seconds to swing their deadliest attack, it has double jump but game has NONE of platforming sections hey atleast LOI had them even for handful amount, Hector takes ages to run 10 meters, weird and really cramped camera system (even worse if you play on widescreen). I actually tried this first and quickly uninstall after less than an hour of playtime.

[BIL]

Your thoughts completely sold me, playing LOI now on PCSX2+upscale+widescreen still looking good the lightning is spot-on. I'm at anti-soul lab yet (great OST so jammin') and I agree about the combat is so much fun at the cost of boxy, CTRL+V'd maps though I don't really mind combat and excellent dash alone is good enough. I wonder if the boxy map was intentional so the game wouldn't be said as DMC wannabe, but the jump mechanics is very good and with the tight platforming it could've been true DMC rival. Also regarding of dashing you need to press R1+X+directions but the R2 also used to guard and dash too like WTF they could've been use it for dash activation, not that I have a problem doing the former.

Glad you're liking it! Thinking back to LOI, I eventually came to regard it as more of a realtime combat dungeon crawler, than a serious contender to DMC's still-unrivalled-in-'03 action/adventure. LOI's architecture is truly more on par with something previous-gen, like Vagrant Story; but like VS, the mechanics and combat easily make up for the flat, samey rooms. LOI also benefits hugely from the sheer viscerality of its engine, something I'm reminded of while replaying Bloodborne. When it feels this bone-crushingly good simply outplaying and smashing enemies, even the same ones in the same room you've crossed five times in ten minutes, that's a lot of pressure taken off the stage design.

And of course there's Michiru Yamane's gorgeous OST - an engine of excellence unto itself, imparting ruined elegance and dark, deftly synth-shaded intensity throughout. Between the ferocious superhuman violence, enveloping soundtrack, and smart treasure-hunts, it's a far more personable Castlevania than its limited architecture suggests.

Having said this... had they actually designed a contiguous, believable "cursed citadel," ala VS's outstanding Lea Monde, never mind BB's towering Yharnam, that'd have helped even more. LOI's MegaMan-styled stage select dais was a mistake that instantly cheapened its castle; made me cringe when I saw it in magazine previews.

I've posted this tale before, but it bears repeating: I had an acquaintance who worked at long-since shuttered KCE Hawaii. One day, his boss comes in with a bunch of Japanese staff, and a pre-production copy of LOI for everyone to try. "Damn, it plays great! It'll be amazing once the stages are finished!" exclaimed buddy - not knowing this was the finished game, and the staffers were being congratulated for getting it done. He was in the doghouse for a bit as he told it, haha.

Was a trustworthy fellow (with a sig line that still makes me laugh to this day: "Of course [his username] would know the plot to an H-game... that sick f**k" ) But true or not, it's entirely too believable. I remember seeing demo videos of LOI, via EGM's then-astounding pack-in DVDs (specifically that spike trap hallway, where you need to hop over the "waves" as they approach), and thinking "Yeah, that'll be a bit cooler in the final" - while recalling the now almost 2y/o DMC1's own, far nicer-textured and lit semicircular moving spiked floors, frequently negotiated with enemies interfering. Come release day, yep - everything looking exactly as it did seven months earlier.

Being charitable, I think they just didn't have the time and/or manpower to design 3D environments on par with DMC1's expansive, utterly believable Mallet Island. LOI popped up out of nowhere in US mags in spring of '03 - right as Aria of Sorrow launched, not even a year after HOD - and was in stores by that Christmas. It's not like they didn't try hard with what little architecture they had - LOI's TLB+100% Easter Egg hunt is actually really well-done, with one particularly well-hinted secret I still recall the thrill of finally spotting.

You can see this awful pattern with another beloved KCET property, Silent Hill - the dwindling dev resources and time between each of the four games corresponding directly to a decline in architecture and general polish. My KCE Hawaii buddy was infuriated at their corporate culture circa 2005, said things went to shit when the bean-counters were put in charge. I'd say you can see a similar ailment in Neo Contra, a likeable game that'd have been far better with only frustratingly minor polishing.

Renewable farming VS myopic slash-and-burn. Ah, well. Spilled milk, etc. Roll on ACA Mystic Warriors and Violent Storm, that's what I say.

Did you know that standing at specific spot before the very first save room, you can duplicate items infinitely? Looks like KCET forgot to disable this "debug" in NA version.

I never encountered this during my time with the game, but I seem to recall hearing about it afterward, and being very unsurprised.

For my "@crazy" mode run, I actually ended up going with no heals during boss battles, for a bit of that oldschool CV pressure. It's not really necessary, in hindsight. More the decision of a deeply frustrated traditional CV fan who'd wished they'd gone with Shattered Soldier-style polygonal 2D.

[Air Master Burst]

DMC1 is an unfair comparison for LOI since it was originally supposed to be the next RE game. If you count all the work from the Onimusha and RE that it was directly built on, DMC1 is probably in a league of its own.

NG1 was 04, and DMC3 didn't hit until 05, so I think the only clearly superior character action game when LOI dropped was Otogi (and maybe the Onimushas if they count).

[BIL]

I was considering mentioning DMC1's place in RE4's infamous dev odyssey, but I don't know nearly enough of the specifics, so I left it alone. It's true, there was undoubtedly a lot more time (and I'm sure resources, given RE's standing in Capcom's portfolio) behind Kamiya's game.

I just wish IGA hadn't made such a clown of himself in the press, pre-release. It'd be one thing if he'd backed up his slagging of KCEK's games with a DMC-comparable production, having cast himself as a devout follower of Kamiya. Instead, he ended up looking like an absolute jerkoff with his pancake-flat game. Everyone knows 3D platforming is annoying, but it's not like you need precision jumps to impart a sense of altitude and peril. Just a crumbling ledge, or a steep cliff, or an ominous hole in the floor to steer clear of during combat (or perhaps steer enemies towards) is enough, something both CV64s manage even in their platform-free areas.

Then again, my favourite area of Dark Souls is upper BlightTown - punting homies off ledges, or sidestepping while they airmail themselves STR8 2 HELL - and the one thing I'm left wanting from Bloodborne's stages is a bit more of that deathfall/ring-out action. I like my combat with an undercurrent of environmental treachery ala trad CV.

EDIT: Well I mean, unless THE FUCKERS WON'T STOP KILLIN THEY SELFS (■｀w´■) （＾w´ ）

Ironically, LOI actually does feature at least one bout of precision hopping, band-aided with falling simply warping you back to the room entrance.

[Air Master Burst]

I just wish IGA hadn't made such a clown of himself in the press, pre-release. It'd be one thing if he'd backed up his slagging of KCEK's games with a DMC-comparable production, having cast himself as a devout follower of Kamiya. Instead, he ended up looking like an absolute jerkoff with his pancake-flat game.

IGA has always been a clown, and is arguably the worst thing to ever happen to the franchise. SOTN handles like a dream, and I adore the graphics and all the little touches and easter eggs, but CAN YOU IMAGINE if they'd bothered to do actual enemy balancing instead of that lazy-ass stat leveling system? I mean, it's not hard to imagine because we eventually got Hollow Knight and Dead Cells, but sadly neither of them has the polish of a AAA 90s title.

Lament of Innocence was the best game he ever "made" although given some of his statements about it, it kinda sounds like it ended up good DESPITE his not-super-hands-on involvement:

Envisioning the concept of the game as possessing "fully connected rooms," Igarashi found that this hindered the map's accessibility and made the puzzles more difficult to solve. He then divided the map into separate ones for each area and "[kept] the puzzles contained within each area."

While Igarashi "extended a 2D game style into 3D", the 3D environment proved to be quite different, possessing less precision. According to Igarashi, the 2D games proved easier to create, as the player could easily understand all elements of the 2D game, such as the location of the monster and where the player character should run or attack. Despite these trade-offs, he enjoyed that the 3D graphics contributed to creating a "reality-based environment" in gaming. The team completed Lament of Innocence, with time left over to further refine the balance of the game's elements; as a result, the game became progressively difficult as the team grew accustomed to it, according to Igarashi.

[BIL]

TBH, I'm loathe to give IGA too much credit for even SOTN, given he was only an assistant director to the already thoroughly proven Toru Hagihara (Rondo of Blood) - and they had frickin Nobuya Nakazato (Contra mainman since III, lots of goodies before/after like FC Bucky O'Hare and MD Rocket Knight) helping out. IGA's first time at the helm was Harmony of Dissonance, a game I've grown to love a lot over time, but one undeniably riddled with elementary screwups, like the pointlessly bloated map, some truly worthless bosses, and its car crash aerial whip. (I wish HOD's mad, messy creativity and AOS's tighter, relatively straitlaced formality had been one exceptional game, not two likeable ones in as many years)

I think SOTN's main issue isn't balance (it's unideal, but you can at least pick your level of cheese), but topography, or a lack thereof - so many formerly tricky Rondo enemies now haplessly stranded, like those poor Halberd knights. The Inverted Castle's Black Marble Gallery, specifically those areas that pair snapper traps with Beam Skeletons, instantly stand out, simply for putting a little more on the plate; also a fine showcase of the airlock-tight controls+collision. A few other areas, too, like the absolutely Medusa-wracked Inverted Clocktower... but imagine if, say, the Outer Wall was actually a challenge to ascend, with the elevator you unlock at the top a hard-earned reward, rather than mere convenience.

There are times where the overwhelmingly common flatland does work - it's all about the enemy placement, after all - like the first castle's Coliseum; nasty pairings of Armor Lords with Bone Muskets, the former launching brutal mid-range hits and soaking up damage, the latter cruelly hitscanning from behind their comrade... granted, a quick Soul Steal or even charged Hellfire aka Big Black Balls will quickly snuff the snipers, but at least you're working for it, right?

Still, if HOD's bloated map is any indication, environmental design was simply never IGA's strong point in 2D or 3D. To put it mildly. I remember yet another dubious interview with him, from around then, when he noted that 3D is un-ideal for "rooms connected by holes in the ceiling..." And thinking "Ok? That's what fucking staircases and elevators are for, how about you model some?"

[Sima Tuna]

Metroidvanias struggle with design in general. I don't have any real issue with the design of SotN or Aria of Sorrow as metroidvanias. But metroidvanias tend to have less tight design compared to some other genres. Of course, everyone will counter with "but super metroid." Yes, and that's why SM is still such a big deal, and why many people say that the metroidvania genre hasn't made any meaningful advances on SM after all these years.

Since metroidvanias favor that "wandering" sort of play style, it allows for a little more haphazard placement. After all, if every enemy placement was as brutal and rude as possible, the constant need to move back and forth between the same screens would probably cause players to ragequit. That's just one example of how level design had to be nerfed to play nice with the subgenre conventions. Hollow Knight is fine. It's about as good as you can make a metroidvania. I prefer Salt and Sanctuary though. S&S has a lot more souls and DMC DNA. Combat is fast and allows for some cool launcher combos. It's not character action, but you can still do a lot of fun shit.

My favorite metroidvania is probably La-Mulana, which does contain impeccably tight level design. As a result, it's a very polarizing experience and players tend to love or hate it. The game tells you nothing and punishes you hard for fucking up. It's not a combat-focused experience, however. You spend a lot of time exploring, deciphering tablets and scratching your head.

In character action news, I'm still waiting on Bayo 3 and hoping it's good. A physical release for bayo 1 is coming to switch at the end of the month. I might grab that and replay Bayo 1 just for fun. We'll see. I'm still planning to finish up NG Black/Sigma. I forgot how fucking obnoxious the rolling rock platforming challenge in Black is. The control improvements made for Sigma let you complete it much easier.

[Air Master Burst]

While we're kind of on the subject, has anyone played Nano Breaker? I guess it's based on the LOI engine. Worth a spin?

[BIL]

Since metroidvanias favor that "wandering" sort of play style, it allows for a little more haphazard placement. After all, if every enemy placement was as brutal and rude as possible, the constant need to move back and forth between the same screens would probably cause players to ragequit. That's just one example of how level design had to be nerfed to play nice with the subgenre conventions.

True - I'd have balanced this by having "bad hoods" bordered by generally safer straits. You'd know when you were nearing a bad hood when the level design started getting a bit too real.

Like, leave SOTN's Marble Corridor entirely as-is; it's a mesmerising sight, and a blast to blow through with advanced mobility. There's no need to turn it into a Makaimura-esque hellscape.

JYEEEAAAHHH BOYEEEEEE 凸(｀w´メ)凸

Spoiler

But make ascending The Outer Wall a much trickier prospect, with ragged crumbling footholds from the outset. SOTN's issue is the terrain needle moving from "chill" so rarely - that, and it having absolutely impeccable controls+collision, leaving a frustrating sense of unused potential...

MAXIMUM POWWAAA! AAAAAAAAAAA

...if you think about it. Which TBF is easy not to, while actually playing; I made my peace with ~Magical Vacation Dracula~ long ago. One of those ineffably satisfying games that's seemingly bare on paper, but inimitably, eternally entertaining in practice.

The BRIEFCASE was FULL OF TAMPONS

Spoiler

2 TAEK ME OUT U MUST FITE LIEK A MAYNEEEE

Spoiler

OBMAR the knife-obsessed EdgyBoi says GUNS ARE FOR PUSSIES

Spoiler

FIVE-STAR CORPSE DISPOSAL SERVICE Got Tha Ladies Spreadin

Spoiler

The most fabulous BULLDOZER OF CORPSES there ever was or will be

While we're kind of on the subject, has anyone played Nano Breaker? I guess it's based on the LOI engine. Worth a spin?

I only cleared out the first run, like back at launch, but I recall its stage design (everyone's big concern after LOI's Super Combat Pancake) being a lot more personable than its predecessor's. It somewhat complicated LOI's combo system, with a branching combo tree relying on the premise of your s00per transforming arm. EG, there's an Axe branch, a Spear, a Sword... the signature mechanic is a pretty neat timing-based instakill - basically, tag an enemy with your harpoon, then hit [attack] just as they come rocketing in for a br00tal bisectification and BUCKETS O' BLAHD (mo' go' = mo' sco' 4 LVLNUP). If you fuck up, you've just put the enemy in your face and will need to improvise.

I had a good time with it, though I wasn't left with nearly the impression of Shinobi or Otogi, never mind DMC1. This was right around where games like NG1 and DMC3 finally started catching up to Kamiya, so it was quickly forgotten about. Still got my copy (as with all of these now-old skool jamz ), not at all averse to a revisit.

[copy-paster]

LOI actually does feature at least one bout of precision hopping, band-aided with falling simply warping you back to the room entrance.

When I first get through this room it was bizarre experience, Leon screams like he just got first orgasm after 20 years even though he fell down by like 6 feet. And if you fall down everytime he'll scream everytime too ala Tomb Raider: Angel of Darkness glitch.