I can't relate to modern gaming anymore

[pegboy]

How many of those require you do anything even close to resembling a 1cc or going for score?

I'm guessing zero but I'd love to be wrong.

Edit: I guess Streets of Rage maybe? That actually does look good.

[Steamflogger Boss]

Fair enough! Let's keep our fingers crossed!
...
Just did a quick check on the local classifieds. Was very happy to find that where I live (deep south of Germany), there's an abundance of almost free CRTs... phew!

It's pretty dire where I'm at (US, but a different state than the post that originally mentioned it). I purged some CRTs awhile back thinking I had too many. Only now I recently had an issue on one with it powering on. Fixable but annoying and I kind of regret getting rid of a couple of the sets in particular. Ended up swapping out 200 pound sets instead of fixing it (that would have required moving it too so I was very meh about it). Should be fine long term, but I'm definitely picking up ones I deem interesting when I come across them locally.

ETA: Not even touching that other discussion.

[RileyYeo]

Hi, most of the time I play classic(old) games. Now I like playing WoW Classic, a 15-year-old video game. Are you interested?

[Rastan78]

How many of those require you do anything even close to resembling a 1cc or going for score?

I'm guessing zero but I'd love to be wrong.

Edit: I guess Streets of Rage maybe? That actually does look good.

You got to remember even arcade games don't require a 1cc or high score to enjoy.

For example main Psikyo designer Shin Nakamura said the reason they always did random stage order only on the early stages is they knew most people would never even get very far. By mixing up the stages, scrubs could still get to have fun by playing a variety of stages instead of the same one over and over.

In other words even though there is a hardcore challenge waiting in the 2nd loop the games are meant for all skill levels.

Re: Streets 4, it's definitely a well done game worth a play. I did 1cc arcade normal which only took a couple tries even for someone who's not great at beat em ups like myself. Pros are gonna want to crank it up to Mania for that extra challenge.

The only beef a lot of people have with the game is its length. Even Mania speed runs are close to an hour. So if you want to do a lot of 1cc attempts with different characters you're in for the long haul.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Most of the modern stuff just boils down to lame interactive movies without any real skills requirements.

Do you consider games like Devil May Cry 5, Monster Hunter World, Sekiro, Nioh, Hades, Doom Eternal, or Breath of the Wild to be "interactive movies"?

How many of those require you do anything even close to resembling a 1cc or going for score?

Spoiler

The term "roguelike" which in modern times has become very fashionable, basically just means a game that expects you to play from beginning to end in one go without dying. A great many of these games also have scoring systems and/or in-game timers, for the explicit purpose of supporting high score runs or time attacks.

Metroid Dread may not be the hardest game around, but it is easily the hardest game in the entire Metroid franchise, is explicitly designed to support a competitive speedrunning scene, and has an additional 1HP mode as free DLC. It's also the best Metroid game in at least 20 since Super regardless of difficulty, so you should play it if you care about the series even a little.

Anyway, I can't think of any game that has ever "required" you to go for a high score, and almost any modern game will have online leaderboards of one kind or another for players who wish to do that sort of thing.

[Rastan78]

Another modern Nintendo game that is surprisingly hardcore was DKC Tropical Freeze. Even the base game offers a decent enough challenge, but if you want to do all the hidden levels they will keep you busy for a while. Then there are individual speedrun leaderboards which include replays of the fastest runs.

Not to mention the soundtrack and presentation are top notch. The game is locked 60 fps and will never drop a single frame throughout. Was never a big fan of the SNES games, but have to give props to Tropical Freeze. Probably didn't quite get the recognition it deserved bc of being stuck on Wii U and then releasing at full 59.99 retail when it was ported to Switch.

[Bassa-Bassa]

You got to remember even arcade games don't require a 1cc or high score to enjoy.

For example main Psikyo designer Shin Nakamura said the reason they always did random stage order only on the early stages is they knew most people would never even get very far. By mixing up the stages, scrubs could still get to have fun by playing a variety of stages instead of the same one over and over.

Aren't these people generally the kind that play once to see the end and then never again? I wouldn't call that having fun even if it's only because 30 minutes is too little for that, but maybe it's just me.

And I'm sure now that it's just me that I strongly dislike SOR4's visuals. Why is it so hard these days to find a game that combines both, exciting and solid mechanics with stellar art.

[sunnshine]

Full disclosure, I'm old and happily and unapologetically stuck in the late 90s/early 00s as far as my music, fashion and games taste goes. I grew up in the 80s and 90s so have experienced the joy of arcades and Mega Drives and SNESs first time around, games were short and sharp and fairly unforgiving with limited lives/credits available. You could try for a score if you wanted but it was mostly (for me anyway) about not dying as quickly as I did last time. A lot of 'new' (and I'm counting the 7th gen here) AAA games are rather like having a second job; take item A to location B and fight boss C or whatever to get item D which you then have to give to person E over on planet F. You never actually 'die' or get a game over because you can just start again from a checkpoint so there's no real sense of jeopardy or challenge, just more grind to level up and get a bigger sword/gun/boot to kill the next boss with, like a fancier and whizzier but ultimately shitter version of the Magic Knight or Dizzy games on 80s home computers which I fucking hated. Lots of game designers seem to think that making a game last ages by adding elements of grind is 'content' but it's not, it's just really fucking lazy and unimaginative.

I've just cottoned on that AAA games are just fancy arcade adventures. I have tried them, I really have, but sweet baby Jebus and the Holy Socks they're dull.

[Bassa-Bassa]

^ Very well put, but as it's been said, this claim is as old as the PS2 era. I think that in order to update it we should add that the non-AAA titles that try to fill the old genres/styles just aren't good enough despite the huge amount of them (much bigger than that of the PS2 era), the exceptions are very, very few, unfortunately.

[sunnshine]

Agreed.

Is it levelling up/RPG/unlocking aspects that spoil games that don't (shouldn't?) need those elements? I know Ginga Force has some fans on here but I hate it because of the grind involved to get the fun stuff

[Bassa-Bassa]

Well, today I just learnt that even the new Kikikaikai (one of those very, very few exceptions I was counting in) forces you to play a freaking "story mode" in order to unlock the classic arcade mode the series is known for (called here "free mode", whatever). And see what they did with the new Makaimura. Fantastic generation what.

[Sumez]

(...) Xeno Crisis, Battle Axe, Owlboy, Hyperlight Drifter, Blasphemy

Ftr thought the first two here looked solid, where the visuals would not prevent me from playing. Blasphemous looks decent too. Hyper Light Drifter otoh I would not touch.

I'll help you out here.
Xeno Crisis is a great game, and easily the best on that list. It took me a while to not actually hate it because it does feel janky at first, but it's actually super satisfying once it clicks and you get into the zone. It's an arcade game at heart (and the Neo Geo port is great) - Play it to 1CC it.
Battle Axe meanwhile, though made by presumably the same people, is pretty bland and forgettable. It's somewhat competent, but the gameplay isn't satisfying.

Owlboy is IMO pretty fun, it relies very much on presentation over pure gameplay satisfaction - it's very much a modern game. The same could be said for Blasphemous, but it's probably the better game. It's also extremely formulaic standard indie metroidvania. If you've played a few of those, Blasphemous does nothing you haven't seen many times before, and I'd rather recommend games like Hollow Knight, Treasure Adventure Game, Castle in the Darkness, Momodora 4, or An Untitled Story, for a series of games which all manage to be a lot more memorable. On the other hand, I'd recommend Blasphemous over Metroid Dread any day of the week, what a god damn dud that game was. I hear Environmental Station Alpha is great.

Hyperlight Drifter is a boring style-over-substance game. The style is cool though, but I can't recommend it.

[Sumez]

That said, if a gradius vi or new CAVE game came out I'd probably give it a look, but lol I'm not holding my breath for that.

Lots of other new stuff of the sort does come out though. Don't tell me you're not at least a tiny bit interested in the new Pocky & Rocky? Rolling Gunner?

[Sumez]

Well, today I just learnt that even the new Kikikaikai (one of those very, very few exceptions I was counting in) forces you to play a freaking "story mode" in order to unlock the classic arcade mode the series is known for (called here "free mode", whatever).

The story mode in Kiki Kaikai is literally the classic arcade mode. Don't make up stuff for the sake of your arguments.

And see what they did with the new Makaimura. Fantastic generation what.

What they did? You mean create the best classic action platformer made in several decades? Arguably the best game of the entire franchise (and definitely the toughest)? Easily GOTY 2021. Ghosts n Goblins Resurrection is a fucking masterpiece, and classic old school run-n-gun infused arcade platforming at its absolute best.
If you're fed up with modern gaming, GNGR is the god damn cure.

[drauch]

I think some of this is just old man yelling at the wind. I've been guilty of it too, probably still am. Just seems kinda silly to say how new games just 'trick' you into grinding and making it a long experience, when here we are playing a 15-20 minute game over and over, no change, for up to 100s of hours for a self-imposed challenge, lol.

[Steamflogger Boss]

Appreciate you Sumez thx.

[Bassa-Bassa]

I think some of this is just old man yelling at the wind. I've been guilty of it too, probably still am. Just seems kinda silly to say how new games just 'trick' you into grinding and making it a long experience, when here we are playing a 15-20 minute game over and over, no change, for up to 100s of hours for a self-imposed challenge, lol.

What's "self-imposed" in playing a game the way it's intended?

Well, today I just learnt that even the new Kikikaikai (one of those very, very few exceptions I was counting in) forces you to play a freaking "story mode" in order to unlock the classic arcade mode the series is known for (called here "free mode", whatever).

The story mode in Kiki Kaikai is literally the classic arcade mode. Don't make up stuff for the sake of your arguments.

What you told me says otherwise. Not letting you pick the character you want, not letting you use special moves from the beginning, and not giving you the 2P option, is not arcade-ish, but JRPG-ish.

And see what they did with the new Makaimura. Fantastic generation what.

What they did? You mean create the best classic action platformer made in several decades? Arguably the best game of the entire franchise (and definitely the toughest)? Easily GOTY 2021. Ghosts n Goblins Resurrection is a fucking masterpiece, and classic old school run-n-gun infused arcade platforming at its absolute best.
If you're fed up with modern gaming, GNGR is the god damn cure.

I lost interest when I read that it's structured like Super Meatboy, which I find very modern. Not a fan of the animation techniques used either (again, very modern as well), but that's less relevant.


Too bad about Battle Axe, I guess it's really hard to hit the right spots if you're not Japanese. I read it's getting a Neo Geo version which would give it the original 4:3 presentation back (early builds were 4:3). Maybe, not enough for this title, but that always helps to get a more exciting gameplay. Problem is, well, Neo Geo only.

[Sumez]

Not letting you pick the character you want and not letting you use special moves from the beginning, not giving you the 2P option, is not arcade-ish, but JRPG-ish.

I lost interest when I read that it's structured like Super Meatboy, which I find very modern.

You should play games before passing such heavy judgment on them, because neither of those assumptions are remotely true

I can at least get not vibing with the GNGR artstyle, based on the original trailers I thought the same (especially the zoomed in sequences look real bad, but there's like three across the entire game), but it actually works really well for what it is when you're playing it. In fact I think parts of it looks really great.

[drauch]

What's "self-imposed" in playing a game the way it's intended?

You gotta be real. So many arcade games aren't designed with the sole intention of you beating it with a single credit.

[Sumez]

I don't think that's true at all. Arcade developers knew how people would be approaching them in the arcades, and the whole business model is designed around people practicing them until they are able to get competitive scores. Sure, old arcade games would loop forever with no actual ending, but any game that has an actual end sequence is obviously designed with at least a 1CC in mind as the ultimate goal. Especially if the high score list says "ALL" to recognize that.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Not letting you pick the character you want and not letting you use special moves from the beginning, not giving you the 2P option, is not arcade-ish, but JRPG-ish.

I lost interest when I read that it's structured like Super Meatboy, which I find very modern.

You should play games before passing such heavy judgment on them, because neither of those assumptions are remotely true

Honest question 1: Do you think that Kikikaikai's story mode is an afterthought of "free mode" or the other way round?

Honest question 2: Do you think the new Makaimura is conceived to be played from the beginning every time like the original game?

You gotta be real. So many arcade games aren't designed with the sole intention of you beating it with a single credit.

The ones from the US? Those aren't so many, are they?

[drauch]

I know I won't sway anyone with this argument. I know where I'm at . I've lost the ye olde arguing spirit. Probably for the better.

Maybe I should make a thread where I can't relate to arcade gaming anymore.

[Rastan78]

What's "self-imposed" in playing a game the way it's intended?

You gotta be real. So many arcade games aren't designed with the sole intention of you beating it with a single credit.

I can agree with that. Even though arcade games are almost always designed with with the possibility of 1cc as a core part of the balance, devs have to appeal to a wide audience if they want success.

Wasn't it K Tiger where Toaplan said their goal was to design a game that would be fun to play while drunk?

If you're going to argue players that don't pursue 1cc aren't playing a game as intended, you could just as well argue those that only play for 1cc and not score are also missing out on the dev's vision for the game.

How much of a sweaty try hard do you have to be to be playing an arcade game correctly?

[ChurchOfSolipsism]

How many of those require you do anything even close to resembling a 1cc or going for score?

I'm guessing zero but I'd love to be wrong.

Only few of the classics required you to work as hard as you have to to get a 1cc as, say, the typical Cave game, nor was it a requirement built into them; based on personal experience I'd dare to say only a tiny fraction of the players in the 80s and 90s went for 1cc at all. What kind of criterium is "it must be hard to be a high quality video game" supposed to be? Video games have always been mainly about the experience of playing them, not about the joy of having 1cc'ed them.

Hyperlight Drifter is a boring style-over-substance game. The style is cool though, but I can't recommend it.

Each to their own, mate, but most people who played and/ or reviewed it disagree with you. I'd say it's a colossal modern classic with great graphics and animations, fantastic and evocative music & atmosphere, and great old school/ skill based gameplay. Each enemy encounter is interesting and often requires you to find the right tactic, most bosses are real challenges and need to be practiced a lot before they can be beat. I thought the decision to tell a (admittedly vague, but still interesting) story without any dialogue was at least daring and worked very well.

I think some of this is just old man yelling at the wind. I've been guilty of it too, probably still am. Just seems kinda silly to say how new games just 'trick' you into grinding and making it a long experience, when here we are playing a 15-20 minute game over and over, no change, for up to 100s of hours for a self-imposed challenge, lol.

What's "self-imposed" in playing a game the way it's intended?

It's still a choice. I play most Cave games for survival only and still have an absolute blast. In some games, I even ignore the base mechanic (turning into a ninja in Akai Katana, using those dumb bullet-cancelling hypers in Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu) completely.

[BIL]

Wasn't it K Tiger where Toaplan said their goal was to design a game that would be fun to play while drunk?

Brings to mind the Toaplan Forever interview transated @ Gamengai, which mentions their 2P/Checkpointless overseas boards being designed for drunken Burgers.

VHS: For the games first put out by Taito, were there any requests by them to "make something like this?"

Uemura: For the overseas versions, yes. They're the ones that requested 2-player simultaneous play. Originally in the overseas versions you didn't return to a checkpoint when you died, and simultaneous play was a must. The players at that time in America were always playing in a somewhat drunken fashion, not making strategies or plans.

VHS: Now that you mention it, most overseas games have continues which allow you to pick up right where you left off: Raiden, for example.

Uemura: The shooting game I envisioned is over when you don't return to a checkpoint after a miss because you are no longer creating a pattern.

VHS: There's also the notion that if you die somewhere that should be the end.

Uemura: There's always a recovery pattern in the games I make. Even if your weapons go to zero, you can always recover.

Elsewhere the drunken salaryman appears:

Iona: By the way, I've always thought the ship speed in Tiger Heli was slow and you can't properly dodge.

Uemura: I was told the same thing with Hishouzame and Kyuukyoku Tiger, but that was my idea. Well, you could say the shooting games I like to make are closer to puzzle games: games that require a strategy. They're made so you can't just go where you want but are required to take a specific route or can't continue.

Iona: Guess you can't ad-lib (laughs).

VHS: Seems that way.

Uemura: At the time, shooting games were a genre that salarymen could enjoy without putting too much thought into, but for the diehards, they were memorizers. I wanted to make something that only people that memorized a certain path could play.

[Sumez]

Maybe it's just semantics?
I think it goes without saying that any "1CC focused" game should be enjoyable when you aren't actually 1CC'ing it, otherwise it very clearly failed A lot of arcade games are very difficult, and not everyone has the skill to complete them, but they still need to be able to attract an audience.

But in a style of game where basically the only consistent metric of success is not dying, calling not dying until you reach the end of the game a self imposed challenge is kinda twisting reality innit.

[Sumez]

Honest question 1: Do you think that Kikikaikai's story mode is an afterthought of "free mode" or the other way round?

Honest question 2: Do you think the new Makaimura is conceived to be played from the beginning every time like the original game?

1. Neither feel like an afterthought to me. Trust me when I say, both modes are arcade style.

2. It is not, it is a much larger and tougher game than any other in the series preceeding it, and beating it once will take many many many many many deaths. But the checkpoints are few and far between, nothing like Super Meat Boy at all.
And surprisingly, if you choose to stick with the game after beating it, subsequent playthroughs will be a lot faster, simply due to improving your skills and dying less. I have in fact played the full game (first loop, which does give a genuine ending) from start to end in a single session many times, which typically runs around 1.5 hours, though of course many have done it a lot faster.
The game has a modern sensitivity in the sense that yes it does accommodate a "modern" audience who wants to play a game through once and then forget about it forever, while still providing a massive challenge, but at the same time it also magically manages to accommodate the arcade-minded players, it's really brilliant.
I'd say one thing that would be cool would be a mode which actually does limit your lives across a full playthrough to play it like an arcade game. You can aim for a no-death run, which is absolutely doable (many have done it, and I'd say it's probably still easier than a Metal Slug 3 1CC which is also a long game with an absurdly low margin of error), but a small in-between challenge wouldn't have hurt. The game as it is, though, is insanely solid.

[drauch]

But in a style of game where basically the only consistent metric of success is not dying, calling not dying until you reach the end of the game a self imposed challenge is kinda twisting reality innit.

But isn't the metric of intended success typically score? You can die before someone who 1cc'd and still theoretically get a better score. You can credit feed and still reach the end...

I guess this is what I mean by self-imposed. You in a sense create your own rules and limit the amount of credits you're allowed. Even if the intention is a 1cc, nothing is hindering you from this except the amount of credits you're willing to pay/input, and in most cases, you will still reach the exact same ending.

[Rastan78]

Found the quote I was thinking of over at shmuplations:

Naturally, STGs are about the thrill of blowing stuff up, but we wanted a game where, just by looking at it, you could tell it would be fun to play even when you’re drunk. In fact, we enjoyed playing it drunk ourselves.

One day I was in the city and I saw some imposing tough guy pounding the Kyuukyoku Tiger cabinet with all his strength after Game Over flashed on screen. I thought we’d succeeded in make a game that people could get passionate about. (Yuge)

Memorization of carefully planned routes, blowing stuff up, drunkenness, and beating the shit out of the cabinet in frustration. The pillars of OG shmup design lol

@Sumez, I don't think the idea of a 1cc being a self imposed challenge is too far off the mark. Maybe personal goal is a better word. Debating whether it's that or something inherent to an arcade game's design is a bit of a false dichotomy as it really can be both.

But isn't the metric of intended success typically score? You can die before someone who 1cc'd and still theoretically get a better score. You can credit feed and still reach the end...

I think this depends on score keeping standards. Correct me if I'm wrong but by Arcadia/Gamest standards stage reached will trump score. So if you beat a world record but don't get the clear your score won't be considered?

[Sengoku Strider]

Arcade purists need to check out PSN trophies or achievements. Really, they're often exactly the sort of challenges you're looking for - the 1cc, the no bomb run, ultra hard mode clear, etc. They make even titles that you might otherwise deride as too hand-holdy or whatever into old-school challenges.

Like, if you can get that trophy for beating Uncharted: Lost Legacy on Crushing difficulty, you're better than I am. That part midway through where you have to sneak around the armoured turret cars broke me.

I brought them up before, but a generation of YouTubers needing content has produced a ton of super hard, old-school challenge type games for them to agonize and overreact to. And subsequently influenced a generation of players to get into them while doing so. Whether it's Celeste or Sekiro or Ghosts n' Goblins Resurrected or metaconceptual takes like Getting Over It With Bennet Foddy, none of that spirit went anywhere.

And if you literally just need the exact same thing you were getting in 1987-1997, there's mountains of that too. Zero Ranger, Blue Revolver, Deedlit in Wonder Labyrinth, Dead Cells, Hotline Miami, Shovel Knight, Odallus, 99 Vidas, Fight n' Rage, CrossCode, GG Aleste 3, Cyber Shadow, The Messenger, The Mummy Demastered, Axiom Verge, Triangle Strategy, there have been more new releases in traditional genres over the past couple of years than I could ever keep up with.

It's totally fine if you're happy exploring old console catalogues & arcade releases, I am too. But it's self-defeating to think current gaming is lacking when it's literally built on the foundations those games laid down. And as often as not, doing the fundamentals better thanks to decades of code forensics, QoL improvements and the existence of college game design programs. There were so many old games that faltered because there was nobody to show the programmers how to code compelling game physics, proper collision or audio feedback.