Video game cheating controversies

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DMC
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Video game cheating controversies

Post by DMC »

I've always been fascinated by cheating in video games, the psychology of it plus the investigative work perfomed to catch it.
What examples of cheating in video games have caught your interest?

The minecraft speedrunning controversies of Flowbee is a recent example.

The person produced world record runs. One day he had a potential personal best going while being in a call with a girl he was interested in.
He lied about finishing the promising run, and she requested him to upload it for verification, but as it was not really finished he had to fake a new one that day.
Mods scrutinized the logs of it and provided evidence of cheating. He responded with an apology admitting to faking it but swore the others were legit.
He was then further scrutinized and finally provided a true apology admitting that several of his top scores were faked.

I just find it curious the level of details these mods and players scrutinized his runs. They analyzed the audio and noticed additional sounds suggesting that he did not use the reset mod he claimed to use in a Youtube reply. They further analyzed the logs and noticed the consistency of various logs, which combined with the timing of his tweets, suggested that he had a window of a couple of hours where he practiced the seed that was supposed to be random. On top of that they explored the seed he used to explain the anomalies in his behavior, that his illogical behavior made sense only if you had prepared the seed.

Videos describing the controversy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AiKhmBgE_0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR28fJBFWjs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGRcf7mi-Uc
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Sengoku Strider
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by Sengoku Strider »

DMC wrote:What examples of cheating in video games have caught your interest?
*Cough*

On a separate note, everything around Billy Mitchell. Like, the guy's proved he's legit in a live setting, but he's also clearly faked some stuff. He's a raging narcissist which makes him instantly the most interesting character in anything he's involved with and generally speaking gaming's most compelling villain, but that's also put a target on his back. It's to the point where he was getting scores disqualified where there didn't seem to be actual compelling evidence of wrongdoing (Guinness reinstated him in the end).

And then there's the never-ending and bizarre saga(s) around Twin Galaxies. Things seem to have gotten to the man. He showed up to an online court hearing for a claim against them he'd let lapse for like a year, licking his lips feverishly the whole time like a coke/crack addict would.. It lasted less than 5 minutes before the judge ruled against him & peaced out.
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by Licorice »

I miss Perikles' insights. Guy was a treasure trove of info. Is he hanging out anywhere else these days?
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DMC
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by DMC »

Yeah, my guess is that most people would be absolutely fine with perikles coming back to the community and participate in anything else besides hi score submissions (or in case of hi scoring, video record it with a camera or something). His other contributions would still be very valuable and the community needs more activity anyway.

I also think the community would be wise to show some solidarity as many cheaters probably have some psychological issues. If life consists of about 7-8 dimensions (e.g., family, intimate relationships, education, work, hobby, physical health, mental health) then I suspect some cheaters perceive that their hobby is the primary thing they're doing "well" on--and cheating could be a deluded way to maintain that perception.

Redemption ark:
Admit everything & apologize sincerely --> take a break --> return with a clear statement of changed intent and asking for forgiveness --> contribute to the community in other ways than records = redemption ark completed = hobby identity restored.
On a separate note, everything around Billy Mitchell. Like, the guy's proved he's legit in a live setting, but he's also clearly faked some stuff.
This paradoxical phenomenon is super interesting. I remember Stanski here, from SDA, said the same thing about some speedrunner cheaters.
They were legit record holders at some point but couldn't just accept being no 2.
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by Randorama »

Getting an informed opinion is always useful, but it usually involves reading (to paraphrase Harlan Ellison).

Mia Consalvo is a person I know for doing research on the topic of this thread (She indeed wrote a book on the topic of cheating in videogames).

I suspect that the book has aged not so well, as games were different in 2009 (...I guess), but some general principles & reasons she outlines have probably remained the same.

I cannot really recall the contents of the book in detail, but she may cover cases like the ones you guys are mentioning (including fieldwork examples, I do recall).
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by XoPachi »

I used to love the late ApolloLegend's videos on cheating and dishonesty in speedrunning. Through him I found Karl Jobst and absolutely love his channel. The Dream scandal was really surprisingly entertaining to see unfold for so many different reasons beyond "did he do it or not". And the final video on it from Jobst was some king level shit.

Apollo made a very good point in that a lot of cheaters who get caught aren't new people, but actually very GOOD players who gain a hubris while also being irritated by numerous failed attempts. So after the one attempt that almost goes well but fails, they say "that's not fair, I'm good enough that I SHOULD have gotten that run". And so they cheat to just hand themselves the win.
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by velo »

Sengoku Strider wrote: On a separate note, everything around Billy Mitchell. Like, the guy's proved he's legit in a live setting, but he's also clearly faked some stuff.
He was quite aggressive about outing cheaters in the good ol' days, and dropped some choice quotes that have aged very, very badly. From memory: "It's not enough for players to be good. They have to be gods." The phenomenon of great players frustrated about not being the very best apparently goes all the way back to the beginning of video game competition.

Even Billy's "legit" 1st perfect Pac-Man run is really only an achievement in politics and self-promotion. He's only the "1st" because TG had just changed the official rules, and he went and did it in a live setting right away, before anyone else could.
DMC wrote: I also think the community would be wise to show some solidarity as many cheaters probably have some psychological issues. If life consists of about 7-8 dimensions (e.g., family, intimate relationships, education, work, hobby, physical health, mental health) then I suspect some cheaters perceive that their hobby is the primary thing they're doing "well" on--and cheating could be a deluded way to maintain that perception.
That's the other funny thing about Billy: he really should be able to say "who cares, it's just video games" and walk away, but he won't, it clearly weighs on him. The way he's suffering for his sins is delightful to watch.
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by copy-paster »

Todd Rogers saga is even worse than Billy to me, at least Billy can actually play games despite not admitting his records are done via MAME. But what about Todd? Is this man can even play video games at all?
XoPachi wrote:So after the one attempt that almost goes well but fails, they say "that's not fair, I'm good enough that I SHOULD have gotten that run". And so they cheat to just hand themselves the win.
I almost fall to this rabbit hole while back then I realized that doing things like splicing, non-labelled TAS runs would take me three times more work than just doing legit runs.
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by pegboy »

Is this the thread where we call out frauds and cheaters?
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by Blinge »

Todd Rogers. hoo boy.

It must be sad to have 1 game performance be your whole identity, and a fake one at that. He dined out on that rep for years
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by DMC »

The mystery about two other players also claiming 5:51 in 1982 makes me a bit doubtful Todd cheated though. Is there any info on why the scores of the other two players were removed?

It just seems a strange coincidence to me that three independent people were all claiming a 5:51 score around the same time when, as far as I know, any score below 5:60, or at least 5:57, would have been a WR at the time? Three cheaters picking the same number?

One person on Karl Jobst's video suggested that maybe the verifier messed up looking at the polaroid photos for verification. That is, maybe they all submitted legitimate 5:57 or 5:61 and the verifier messed up registering them as 5:51? But it is also strange to make the same visual mistake three times in a row.

Maybe some glitch? it's such a short game one simple glitch would be sufficient to get the WR.
pegboy wrote:Is this the thread where we call out frauds and cheaters?
That would probably be the thread that Sengoku Strider coughed up. I think this is better suited for well-known or established cases or thoughts about the phenomenon more generally.
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by Blinge »

Todd Rogers world famous Dragster score that he's so proud of is actually physically impossible, so there's that
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by Vanguard »

DMC wrote:The mystery about two other players also claiming 5:51 in 1982 makes me a bit doubtful Todd cheated though. Is there any info on why the scores of the other two players were removed?

It just seems a strange coincidence to me that three independent people were all claiming a 5:51 score around the same time when, as far as I know, any score below 5:60, or at least 5:57, would have been a WR at the time? Three cheaters picking the same number?

One person on Karl Jobst's video suggested that maybe the verifier messed up looking at the polaroid photos for verification. That is, maybe they all submitted legitimate 5:57 or 5:61 and the verifier messed up registering them as 5:51? But it is also strange to make the same visual mistake three times in a row.

Maybe some glitch? it's such a short game one simple glitch would be sufficient to get the WR.
Dragster is a simple game and TASers have investigated it fairly thoroughly, even going so far as to simulate Dragster within a spreadsheet. 5.57 being the best time is pretty certain. Dragster's timer doesn't count every 1/100 of a second, if someone were to somehow master the power of the human element and improve upon 5.57, they still wouldn't be able to get 5.56, the next step up is 5.54, and 5.51 after that. So you see, multiple cheaters claiming 5.51 isn't as unlikely as it may initially sound.
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by DMC »

Thanks for the links! Interesting info.

So according to the Jobst video I linked there were 4 people with 5:57 as tied best scores in 1982 already. Since 5:57 apparently remains the WR and it's such a simple game, I think it is plausible that all three scores recorded as 5:51 were actually 5:57 too (if indeed a photo was needed as proof, I think it is pretty far-fetched that all of them--three independent guys from PA, IL, WI--crafted a fake 5:51 photo).

That is, my guess is that some tired employee at Activision just assumed that the 7 was a 1, and gave all three of them 5:51. The fact that Activision reported a WR of 5:1 in the forthcoming newsletter suggests to me that their verification process or record database wasn't exactly Arcadia/Gemant/Plasmo level. They were probably just happy to be able to put up new scores.

The tragic would be then that Todd, unlike the other two people, internalized this 5:51 score and accepted it as reality. When years later it was found that 5:51 was indeed impossible he was too invested already.
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by KennyMan666 »

Dragster wasn't even Todd's only fake score. Far from it. Most of the rest were way more ridiculous and didn't even need disassembling the game to figure out that they were impossible. Such as Wabbit, where his score was a) past the killscreen, and b) ending in 8 despite the game only ever giving points in multiples of 5. Or Centipede, where he claimed to have gotten 65 million points, when the next best listed score was 58 thousand.

One I remember from my earlier days of speedrunning was Zelda speedrunner TSA who was discovered to have spliced one of his original NES Zelda runs, which was discovered by looking at drops from enemies, which have a set pattern so some drops he got were simply not possible if it had actually been a single segment.

Also, since people mentioned him... seriously do not give Karl Jobst any attention or clicks. Dude's at best nazi-adjacent, being a friend and defender of RWhiteGoose who is literally a nazi.
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by Vanguard »

DMC wrote:I think it is plausible that all three scores recorded as 5:51 were actually 5:57 too (if indeed a photo was needed as proof, I think it is pretty far-fetched that all of them--three independent guys from PA, IL, WI--crafted a fake 5:51 photo).

That is, my guess is that some tired employee at Activision just assumed that the 7 was a 1, and gave all three of them 5:51. The fact that Activision reported a WR of 5:1 in the forthcoming newsletter suggests to me that their verification process or record database wasn't exactly Arcadia/Gemant/Plasmo level. They were probably just happy to be able to put up new scores.
7s and 1s aren't very ambiguous in Dragster. Hard to see how someone could make that mistake.

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DMC wrote:The tragic would be then that Todd, unlike the other two people, internalized this 5:51 score and accepted it as reality. When years later it was found that 5:51 was indeed impossible he was too invested already.
Rogers was always a massive, extremely obvious fraud who claimed outrageous scores in tons of games which Twin Galaxies accepted without question. Twin Galaxies repeatedly published scores from Rogers that were tens, hundreds, or even thousands of times higher than the second best score. TG claimed Todd Rogers was the world record holder in Fathom with a score of 1,110,500. The second place score? 142. Even reaching a killscreen couldn't protect your score from Todd. He claimed to have achieved scores that would require him to play for days at a time without rest and somehow people just believed him even though what little evidence he offered was abysmally weak.
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by DMC »

Vanguard wrote: Rogers was always a massive, extremely obvious fraud who claimed outrageous scores in tons of games which Twin Galaxies accepted without question.
Ok that was a pretty compelling list. What a guy. :lol:
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by neorichieb1971 »

These cheaters become infamous for life. It makes you wonder how it affects their lives on a day to day basis.

I don't really understand the cheating thing myself. Its not as if you're gifted $10m as a world record holder. If a real life competition came up on live TV they would all lose or make their high score lists a laughing stock. These people sound to me like they exaggerate everything, those types of people who just state something as fact that makes you think "that can't be true".

One thing cheaters are doing that is productive though is making a mockery of the system in which they operate. A WR should only be accepted if witnessed and recorded.
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by BIL »

KennyMan666 wrote:Also, since people mentioned him... seriously do not give Karl Jobst any attention or clicks. Dude's at best nazi-adjacent, being a friend and defender of RWhiteGoose who is literally a nazi.
Tragically, I am in thrall to this evil Nazi, as he too appreciates a good stiff todger. :oops: :cool:

The craic is great, and I have enjoyed many salty snacks and frosty beverages observing (ta for links DMC!) - but the cheatening is why I regard even the hardest of the Hard Gayming as a hobby, full stop. There's a snarling jungle of neuroses endemic to elite competition of any sort, antithetical to my #1 favourite thing: chilling in front of a game saying "AWWW YEEEE" and "BRO, THATS SHA-WEEEET" as I make things explode without getting hit, then posting about it in my big comfy internet couch, AKA shumps farm. THATS MY PLEASURE Image Image

You can't steal pleasure. What these faithless shitbirds are grasping at is (Image) glory.

And that is some sad AKA hilarious shit. Image Truly these men are lost.
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by Sengoku Strider »

neorichieb1971 wrote:These cheaters become infamous for life. It makes you wonder how it affects their lives on a day to day basis.

I don't really understand the cheating thing myself. Its not as if you're gifted $10m as a world record holder. If a real life competition came up on live TV they would all lose or make their high score lists a laughing stock. These people sound to me like they exaggerate everything, those types of people who just state something as fact that makes you think "that can't be true".

One thing cheaters are doing that is productive though is making a mockery of the system in which they operate. A WR should only be accepted if witnessed and recorded.

I doubt it's a throughly reasoned process, it comes down to impulse control I'm sure. The temptation is there. They have an unhealthy amount of their ego & identity wrapped up in it, this is the thing that makes them more than just another rando in the world. Meaning not getting it isn't a trivial thing, it can genuinely be shattering to someone who's not particularly well developed or in an otherwise dark place in life. And on some level they likely feel somehow entitled to it, like they're good enough either way. And besides, theres no way they're going to get caught, right?

In Rogers' case, you can tell he's no genius and just kept going for it because it felt good every time he put his name up there. It made him a player, a name, someone people in that world knew and had to have some respect for...something one has to figure he might not have been getting in sufficient supply elsewhere in his life. Where he was really dumb was in his excess, not checking if his scores were even feasible, and in putting a target on his forehead by hogging the top spots. If you look at Perikles' scores, he was always careful to be the #2 guy on any game with any kind of active player base. It was the obscure stuff nobody touches much where he'd plant his flag as number #1, where people weren't likely to come asking for replays or input files.
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by SolDirix »

I'm not an expert on the psychology of cheaters, but if I were to hazard a guess, a lot of it just comes from insecurity.

Like, if you feel like the world is extremely unfair and you don't have nearly as much success as you think you deserve, and the world has thrown you more curve balls then you can handle, I can see why you would have the urge to maliciously break the rules to get ahead.

That doesn't justify it however. I just think it's sad.
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by Sumez »

One of my favourite examples is a person who I guess I shouldn't mention by name to avoid dragging up too much stuff at this point, but anyone who was there will remember.

Know how the final challenge of getting a GM grade in Tetris The Grand Master 2 is playing a minute of invisible tetris? There's a mode in a popular clone where you play the whole game invisible. And this guy had a video where he beat that mode, though the video was set up in a way where it could very easily be faked (IIRC you could see his hands playing, but the gameplay footage visible could easily have been generated by a playback).

This is an incredibly difficult feat, but by no means impossible. And the person in question was proven to already be quite a talented Tetris player, but unfortunately it turns out he's also a compulsive liar.
The real damning proof wasn't the feat itself, of the proof presented, but the arguments he made to back it up when people questioned its legitimacy. The primary one being explaining using the "memory palace" method of remembering the stack, a popular method used by people who participate in disciplines that involves remembering impossibly large quantities of information. It takes skill and practice to do that properly, but what matters here is that the method is absolutely and completely useless for something like Tetris, where the stack will change completely every single split second, forcing the player to constantly form new tactics on the fly.
The cheater in this story just continued digging himself further and further into a hole as people started researching into all the claims he made, and it ended up as an incredibly hilarious forum thread. Anyone curious can probably dig it up on Tetrisconcept.net if it still exists.
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by Rastan78 »

And the person in question was proven to already be quite a talented Tetris player, but unfortunately it turns out he's also a compulsive liar.
It seems like in all areas of life when cheaters, abusers, criminals etc are outed it's so common for people to be surprised that somone with many positive attributes can also be be ethically fucked up. Even total sociopaths can often be very charming and become well liked members of their community. Just look at people like Bill Cosby or others.

It's hard to accept overwhelming evidence of wrong doing and change your entire outlook on somebody once you've been in their corner for a long time. But yes talented, charming and intelligent people people lie, cheat and do much worse every day.
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by mycophobia »

Sumez wrote:One of my favourite examples is a person who I guess I shouldn't mention by name to avoid dragging up too much stuff at this point, but anyone who was there will remember.

Know how the final challenge of getting a GM grade in Tetris The Grand Master 2 is playing a minute of invisible tetris? There's a mode in a popular clone where you play the whole game invisible. And this guy had a video where he beat that mode, though the video was set up in a way where it could very easily be faked (IIRC you could see his hands playing, but the gameplay footage visible could easily have been generated by a playback).

This is an incredibly difficult feat, but by no means impossible. And the person in question was proven to already be quite a talented Tetris player, but unfortunately it turns out he's also a compulsive liar.
The real damning proof wasn't the feat itself, of the proof presented, but the arguments he made to back it up when people questioned its legitimacy. The primary one being explaining using the "memory palace" method of remembering the stack, a popular method used by people who participate in disciplines that involves remembering impossibly large quantities of information. It takes skill and practice to do that properly, but what matters here is that the method is absolutely and completely useless for something like Tetris, where the stack will change completely every single split second, forcing the player to constantly form new tactics on the fly.
The cheater in this story just continued digging himself further and further into a hole as people started researching into all the claims he made, and it ended up as an incredibly hilarious forum thread. Anyone curious can probably dig it up on Tetrisconcept.net if it still exists.
lol and then he came back and did it again on harddrop years later, on an even harder invis mode iirc. got called out immediately, he didn't even film his hand that time
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by BIL »

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SHA-WEEEEEET (■`w´■)

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Hoo hoooooo! (◎w◎;)

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DOOD, thats FUCKIN METAL (`w´メ)

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Bro! Just how in teh fuck could u fake... FAKE GUITAR GAME Image

>NAZIS REPORTAGE<

Hopefully this will not turn into a Fisher-Price cover of ROCK N ROLL SUICIDE :shock:

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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by Rastan78 »

Absent mindedly watched/listened to that breakdown vid yesterday. Hell of a case. Honestly I was just surprised there are still people that into guitar hero. Jobst made a good point about the shittiest thing being the players who were second place but actually had world firsts. Never got to celebrate their hard earned runs by smashing everything in the room with their little plastic guitar Pete Townshend style.

The common move with these guys once called out seems to be to torch everything. Delete every video from youtube and leave the community entirely. Like a dog kicking up blades of grass to obfuscate a freshly laid steamer.

I'd wager recovery would be possible most often if they cared to stick around and come clean, start streaming runs live in the future. Even Milli Vanilli got a second chance. Of course the burn everything and disappear route does seem logical.
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by BIL »

Rastan78 wrote:smashing everything in the room with their little plastic guitar Pete Townshend style.
Image

Maybe loading up a bunch of M80s for a Keef Moon-style BOMBAAA complete with permanent hearing loss, too :shock:
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by copy-paster »

Rastan78 wrote:The common move with these guys once called out seems to be to torch everything. Delete every video from youtube and leave the community entirely. Of course the burn everything and disappear route does seem logical.
They did the Perikles way.
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by mycophobia »

copy-paster wrote:
Rastan78 wrote:The common move with these guys once called out seems to be to torch everything. Delete every video from youtube and leave the community entirely. Of course the burn everything and disappear route does seem logical.
They did the Perikles way.
at least the guitar guy admitted it and apologized
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Re: Video game cheating controversies

Post by pegboy »

Now if only the rest of these frauds would do the same and delete their fake gameplay off youtube:
World of Longplays
Nintendocomplete
Shadowserg
Heroes of xanadu sloth
Edusword
Kirgeez gaming
Paul Eales

The absolute worst is probably NintendoComplete, since this fuck has the audacity to claim "no cheats" when his runs (many if not all of them) are clearly save-stated/re-recorded TAS bullshit. I guess since he isn't straight up using cheat codes, his logic is that he's not using cheating. Fuck him and the rest of them.
Last edited by pegboy on Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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