Consider the lag

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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How much does lag affect you?

Can't stand it and will do anything to avoid it
5
22%
Like to keep it low but can adapt if need be
16
70%
Does not bother me
2
9%
Hard to tell
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 23

dreadnought
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun May 21, 2017 2:34 pm

Consider the lag

Post by dreadnought »

I'm quite fascinated by this subject, seeing as it is one of the gaming's most polarizing ones while also being very difficult to measure and quantify. So it's interesting to me from both gamer's perspective, and also as a psychological phenomena.

Obviously, there exist ~ziilion and one debates about the lag all over the web, but I thought system11 would be the best place to try and investigate it again, since it is dedicated to one of the genres allegedly most affected by it. Plus, there is a large contingent of hardware experts here. To clarify, by "lag" I mean the combined impact of input, display, and inherent machine lag.

I'm personally rather baffled by this subject, so in the little poll I atatched to this topic (just for fun) I'd oscillate betwen options 2 & 4. Arcade-style gaming is not really my forte, I'm more of a turn-based/point'n click kinda gamer, but I do like it a lot and play a lot of twitch games too. But I really struggle to tell if the lag affects me, despite having access to all kinds of setups - original hardware, FPGAs, RPi +CRTs, and also emulation on handhelds / PCs + LCD monitors. Sometimes I feel like yeah, I can totally "feel" the lag...and the next minute, not so sure. Even when comparing laggy/lagless setups side to side. So, I'm pretty sure a large chunk of it is "in your head" and can be influenced by opinions/emotions.

That said, I also totally believe some people really are more "sensitive" to lag, especially advanced speedrunners, shoot'em up or beat'em up players. But then, I've also heard opinions it's possible to adapt to and achieve good results even with some lag, and it's more important to have a constant one.

To sum it up, few questions:
-do you think it's possible to achieve good results in games even on laggier setups (following that "adaptation" theory)? Asking as a player who usually fades out around 2nd, max 3rd boss...
-are pro players using strictly original HW+CRTs, or were there any records ever set on emulators too?
-are there any ABX-like lag related tests? I found one here, from an old topic on this board, but tbh I'm not sure I was doing that lag test correctly. Anybody ever tried it?

Any contributions would be most appreciated. I know it's a flammable, done to death topic, but perhaps it can generate some interesting opinions, especially seeing as folks on this board are sort of more qualified to express them.
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Lethe
Posts: 368
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:49 am

Re: Consider the lag

Post by Lethe »

It's the most immediate ingredient to feeling "in control", but it is only an ingredient, among many other parts of the game design. Important but often fetishized for the wrong reasons. It absolutely will affect my impressions/enjoyment of a game and how I'll approach playing it (3 frame latency is consistently noticeable for me), but is a moderate amount of lag impossible to deal with? Not so sure. As much as 6-7 frames total is surmountable for STGs, perhaps more. Depending on your proclivities it might not be fun though.

Generally, the most important part is stability. It's not a serious issue in fixed-refresh-rate arcade games, but can be a big deal elsewhere (one reason why FPS players will aim for excessively high frame rates). Visual clarity is also much of the impetus behind this stuff - the additional lag on a fast 60hz LCD monitor is irrelevant compared to a CRT, but you'll have to turn vsync off and deal with tearing. A 144hz LCD might look better than 75hz, but it won't directly help you react faster, because you can't make conscious decisions that fast. So the real benefit of using a CRT or high refresh rate LCD is a better image: less motion blur and/or access to vsync without noticeable lag, which in turn can help with playing performance.

The way I see it, with any kind of sane setup the biggest source of latency will be the game itself. So I do what I want to get it to an enjoyably acceptable level, but never view it as a prop-up for skill and dedication.

Edit: re: consistent input lag, look up the Street Fighter V debacle if you don't know about it already. The game had (has?) high input lag that periodically fluctuated and it took a while for people to work out why it felt so awful.
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ED-057
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Re: Consider the lag

Post by ED-057 »

-do you think it's possible to achieve good results in games even on laggier setups (following that "adaptation" theory)? Asking as a player who usually fades out around 2nd, max 3rd boss...
Depends on how much of the gameplay relies on reacting to what happens on screen vs. predicting what is going to happen. If the game uses patterns that are set in stone and you've played it a hundred times and you KNOW that an enemy will appear in a certain place and fire in a certain direction then you can learn to avoid that irrespective of lag. That's assuming the lag itself is also predictable. On the other hand, if you're new to the game or it is one that throws stuff at you randomly, then lag reduces your ability to react to the unexpected. You see the bullet, you try to change direction, but POOF! it was too late.

In the world of shmups there is a lot of variability here. One game might be heavy on memorisation, another could mix things up with rank, while a few are ruled by the RNG.

Players might also be more or less inclined to consciously plan out a route through the game vs. just letting it happen and improvising. Though I assume that good players are good at both.
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BIL
Posts: 18989
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Re: Consider the lag

Post by BIL »

I'm a casual gamer by arcade standards. I mainly like to play action games (sidescrollers, beltscrollers, topdown run/guns) for one life clears. I'm not doing WR-calibre rocket surgery or anything - as long as I can move without appreciable lag, I'm cool. That said, I still voted #1 on the poll. For me, the pleasure of gaming is in the handling. If a game feels sludgy, laggy, encumbered? As far as I'm concerned, I'm getting a faulty product.

I found out recently what 5f lag feels like, and that it's the upper limit of my tolerance: previewed The Lord of King in ShmupMAME, instantly smelled a rat. That's just how the game is, apparently - all versions of MAME respond the same, as does the ACA version.

While it's an easy game by arcade standards - bagged the 1LC after a week or so's relaxed play - the lag puts a burden on even trivial actions. The fact I can compensate - the same way I apply extra care and motor control while walking on icy pavement - doesn't make me disdain it any less.

It's a game, a leisure activity, not a job of work. Anything between me and the good stuff is, by definition, a pain in my ass. Image PITAs that I've paid money for? That's an instant MAX MULTIPLIER on the ASS MAD scale. Image
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