Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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MathU
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Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by MathU »

I figure this is probably one of the best places on the internet to ask this. I have enjoyed my silicone-membraned Sidewinder X4 for ages. It's a great keyboard with nice tactile feedback and a unique solution for reducing key input masking that basically allows it to register more inputs at once than you can physically press with all your fingers. Unfortunately, like all membrane keyboards the membrane eventually wears down and starts to tear and disintegrate. Doubly unfortunately, it's not manufactured anymore. I have seriously been considering using a 3D printer to construct an injection mold to indefinitely recreate new silicone membranes in the future, but an area of considerable uncertainty for me is whether I can replicate the exact silicone formula used by the commercial manufacturers. And so, very displeased with the selection of other membrane keyboards on the market, I am finally considering taking the plunge on an expensive mechanical keyboard.

It seems like there was a time around 10 or 15 years ago when absolute reduction in key input masking was a big appeal for computer games enthusiasts on the market, but the hype has died down a bit and it actually seems harder than ever to find a good selection of keyboards with prominently-displayed key input masking reduction, even among expensive mechanical keyboards. Why is this issue so important to me? I play complicated fighting games like Guilty Gear that often require pressing 9 or 10 different keys at certain moments and I absolutely don't want any of their inputs dropped. So that's one major concern for me.

The other concern I have revolves around tactile feedback and button mashing. I almost never use autofire cheats in my games and actually quite enjoy button mashing when the input feels right. I am looking for a type of keyboard that most facilitates rapid presses and releases of its keys. Concerns include: clear tactile feedback when a key is pressed far enough to have its input read and low travel time (my current keyboard has half-profile keys between traditional height and laptop height that I've come to love). I suspect the switches I might want are Cherry Brown switches or Brown-like equivalents in other brands, or perhaps Topre switches, but I really have no experience with modern mechanical switches and no access to testing with my own hands.

So, fellow keyboard arcade warriors, however few you may be here, can I get some advice? Are my concerns too specific? Is there another concern I'm missing? Is there a keyboard out there for me?
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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Stevens
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by Stevens »

Have you ever looked into a hit box style controller?
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by MathU »

A good keyboard in all honesty is even better. Some of those hitbox layouts also have strangely cramped button placement for some reason.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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Licorice
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by Licorice »

I was playing a 6 button game with my modded Mayflash F300, and as I was switching between the bottom and top rows I thought "gosh I wish I had more space to rest the bottom of my palm". Full size sticks (e.g. the F500) usually give you this, but surprisingly, from photos, real arcade cabinets (e.g. Sega's Astro City) seem not to.

In any case, I'm not sure if it would actually solve the problem. The buttons are simply too far apart and require too much finger travel.

I wouldn't mind a stick for directional movement and keyboard keys for buttons, given I use autofire and don't care if activation force is too high for mashing comfort.

I wonder if there's a product like that. For the time being, I might go ghetto and just have my left hand up on my F300 and my right on my keyboard which I'll park adjacent.

Also does anyone know a good program for setting up autofire on keyboards? Joy2Key works wonders for making controller buttons autofire keyboard keys, but I don't see a way to make the keys by themselves do the same. And before anyone says AHK, no that is absolutely not a solution because last time I used it, it was impossible to get precise and regular timing with it at the kind of frequencies you need for gaming.
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by MathU »

Perhaps I should have asked this in a different subforum.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Honestly, I play a hell of a lot of games with keyboards and I can safely say I can't handle input heavy fighting games on them. I generally prefer a stick for fighting games with a lot of half circle inputs. 360 spin inputs just aren't aren't easy for me, whereas the inputs you do in run 'n guns and shmups feel perfect for keyboard.

As far as keyboards go, I used to have a Razer mechanical keyboard that served me well until it wore out, and I'm now on a cheap hand-me-down Microsoft keyboard that seems to work just as well. I guess I'm not as particular with keyboards... a mechanical keyboard is nice, but even after using it to get a lot of arcade clears I don't think they're a necessity either!

The only keyboards I've truly hated had really flat, "squishy" buttons, didn't feel good from a tactile sense at all. I picked up one of these really cheaply from a local store, and while the mouse was good, the keyboard felt just awful for gaming.

The one thing I can't live without anymore is anti-ghosting capabilities. I hated growing up not being able to reliably press any button combination I wanted and I love that keyboards now support wacky button combinations. Perfect for gaming!
Licorice wrote:And before anyone says AHK, no that is absolutely not a solution because last time I used it, it was impossible to get precise and regular timing with it at the kind of frequencies you need for gaming.
An AHK script is only as good as its programmer. AHK is totally viable for programming scripts with specific timings, though it takes a good bit of practice to learn to be comfortable with it. AHK is nowhere nearly as easy to setup as JoyToKey is! You may not be able to nail a specific X presses per second easily but by tweaking the SLEEP command timings and testing to ensure you get the speeds you want, you can definitely get AHK working. I use a variety of AHK scripts for various games that require different button tap rates to get the desired effects (such as avoiding the game registering it as one continuous input, etc).

If you need assistance with a particular game or a particular script, I'd be happy to try and help.
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MathU
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by MathU »

Would mods be kind enough to move this to Shmups Chat like the arcade stick thread? I guess this was all the response I could have expected here. :cry:
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by Stevens »

Maybe the hardware forum?
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MathU
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by MathU »

I feel like the hardware forum is generally about everything other than controls.
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Stevens
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by Stevens »

Kind of what I was thinking too, but maybe you'll be surprised.

Either way I hope you find what you're looking for.
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by SFKhoa »

Judging by just this criteria
MathU wrote:The other concern I have revolves around tactile feedback and button mashing. I almost never use autofire cheats in my games and actually quite enjoy button mashing when the input feels right. I am looking for a type of keyboard that most facilitates rapid presses and releases of its keys. Concerns include: clear tactile feedback when a key is pressed far enough to have its input read and low travel time (my current keyboard has half-profile keys between traditional height and laptop height that I've come to love). I suspect the switches I might want are Cherry Brown switches or Brown-like equivalents in other brands, or perhaps Topre switches, but I really have no experience with modern mechanical switches and no access to testing with my own hands.
Browns are your best bet, followed by the Blues if you want actual audible feedback.
If you want something with lower travel times, Cherry MX Speeds are also an option.
Mind you, this is just from personal experience and I haven't dabbled enough with other non-Cherry switches to give proper feedback.
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by MathU »

It seems to me like those "Speed" switches actually wouldn't be ideal for button mashing, since they have a smooth, linear actuation and no tactile feedback. Tactile feedback/a clear sense of when something has been pressed hard enough to have its input read seems like a really important characteristic for pressing something repeatedly quickly to me, thus why I've thought Browns are probably the best (the "tactile" Cherry switches that require the least force to actuate). I could completely wrong about this though.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by Rastan78 »

Are you familiar with gamer finger buttons? They make arcade style buttons with that fit the keyboard MX microswitches. Think they come with the fast silver switches. Could be an easy way to spend 5 or 6 bucks and get one button to just test it out. Maybe get a couple other switches to swap in and just see how they feel before committing to buying a new keyboard. Maybe even stick it into a hole in a cardboard box to get a feel of it. Of course an arcade button is gonna feel slightly different to a keyboard but could be a quick and dirty way to test out the options.

I wouldn't disqualify a hitbox out of hand due to the seemingly cramped layout. There's still much more room with the big 30mm buttons than there is typing on a keyboard. Also you have the advantage of being able to comfortably mash the same button with two fingers. For me this has made mashing at high speeds much more manageable and comfortable.
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by MathU »

Wow that's really cool to hear someone making arcade-top buttons designed to house mechanical keyboard switches (wonder if it's only Cherry MX or can house other things like Topre switches too). I've been a fan of microswitch buttons ever since the Nintendo DS, here's hoping controller manufacturers catch up one of these days.

My major issue with all the buttons-only hitboxes I've seen is that the directional buttons are mashed right along with the action buttons, placing your hands in very close proximity. I have no idea how people can enjoy playing with their hands that close together, I spread my hands out on my keyboard for a reason. Funny enough, I notice people are now manufacturing arcade tops with keys arranged to emulate WASD instead of buttons.
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by Rastan78 »

Yeah I know what you mean about how the hitbox layout has the buttons mashed right together. I always wondered why they did it that way. Maybe it doesn't feel as bad as it looks? I would think something about like this would be the bare minimum:

Image

At least with shmups you can always map your A and B to buttons on the far right side to create some more space. Or with a fighter you have enough room to slide everything over one space and leave the left side buttons unused.
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by Lethe »

I only have experience with Browns, and I don't mash much at all (anything over 8~9hz is autofire/mapping multiple keys territory, or don't use the keyboard). But I can say that the tactile feedback is probably more subtle than you think. Browns also have a large distance between the "bump" point and the actuation point which takes some getting used to; supposedly this is smaller in Blues. And I'm sure you know that none of these are designed for low profile, which might end up being a bigger factor than the weight of the switch. I can't give you any specific suggestions, though.

Those keyboard-compatible arcade buttons seem like a great idea. I'll have to try them out someday.
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by Rastan78 »

Sounds like the problem with those buttons seems to be getting ahold of them. I'd recommend grabbing them now if you can and avoiding the official site as I've heard bad things about the customer service and they have gone AWOL. Something due to the pandemic maybe? Could be that they are done.

Apparently there is another option though as Samducksa out of Korea also makes mechanical Cherry switch arcade buttons.
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by MathU »

Tired of speculation and doubt, I got myself a little sampler of four different Cherry MX switches, including Black, Red, Brown, and Blue. Here are my thoughts on them.

I find these "linear" actuation switches with no tactile feedback whatsoever like the Blacks and Reds to be absolutely awful and it actually kind of blows my mind that anyone would have a preference for these for playing games. They feel very similar to the (lack of) sensation you feel on a silicone membraned keyboard when the silicone dome for a given key has worn out and torn away from the membrane. Why would anyone actually want that sensation in a button or key! Blue switches on the other hand are super satisfying for mashing at a surface level, I wasn't expecting to like them as much as I do. Sadly they are incredibly loud--too much so for me. It seems like my hunch was right about my preference for Brown-type switches. While they don't have quite as big of a satisfying tactile bump as the Blues, there is still one there and I think they strike the best middle ground by being nice and quiet. There is one other interesting difference between the Brown and Blue switches if you look past the noise. It seems that the tactile bump on Blue switches is actually somewhat high up in the key depression range. I could foresee this presenting an issue at really high button mashing rates when you don't allow the key to raise again fully between presses and keep it depressed enough that you might not actually meet the tactile bump. The tactile bump is lower across the range of key depression in Brown switches and so this is less of an issue.

Those are my thoughts on Cherry MX switches anyway. The only switch of theirs I'm still curious about is how the Cherry Clear switch compares to Brown. I wonder how big the differences are between other brands with similar color schemes or other mechanically distinct kinds of switches like Topre switches.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by Licorice »

I have a good answer to this question now.

The answer is use a keyboard with low profile tactile switches. I bought a Logitech G915 which has rebranded Kailh choc browns (and maybe altered slightly so generic keycaps can't fit), and it feels very very similar to my Seimitsu buttons (I think they're PS-14s, don't quite remember what I bought now lol)

Even though I couldn't find a force distance graph for the buttons, I took an educated guess based on them being "tactile" (as opposed to "clicky" or "linear"), how they felt, and also some other numbers I could find (I was very surprised to see the operating force was 100gs). Then I compared this with the force distance graphs of switches I could fine online. I came to the conclusion the best matches were always low profile tactiles, mainly due to the pre and total travel distances.

Aside from the G915 I settled on, another good choice of keyboard would be the Keychron K1, which looks way better and has hotswappable switches. The issue is it has 13ms latency (as measured on rtings.com, check their methodology, it's great!), which is, IMO, too high. It is, however, about half the price of the G915, and most non gaming keyboards have just as high if not higher latency, so it's unlikely to be a downgrade if you're on a run'o'the'mill office keyboard. You can get the Keychron K1 with choc browns pre installed IIRC, but cause they're hotswappable you could also try other switches e.g. I was interested in trying the heavy choc oranges, which have an operating force closer to that stated for Seimitsu buttons.

Anyway I'm very happy with my low profile choc browns and my G915. The keys feel very close to arcade buttons, and its much nicer playing games with this keyboard than my ol' Ducky One which had Cherry blues and were annoying to mash.
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by jandrogo »

I received this thing this week. I haven’t tried it yet, so I can’t comment.
There’s also a mirrored version, with arrow keys in right hand and buttons in left hand.

Image

https://www.etsy.com/es/listing/845376230/fightboard-mx
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Licorice
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by Licorice »

Fightboard used to use low profile kaihl switches. Wonder why they switched to MXs. Maybe debounce time?

Are the switches hotswappable on it?
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by BrianC »

Licorice wrote:Fightboard used to use low profile kaihl switches. Wonder why they switched to MXs. Maybe debounce time?
Telling from the site, there's a few different models and the one with the low profile kaihl switches is called Fightboard LP.
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by MathU »

Months of research later (and some large sums of money on switch samples for testing), I finally have a keyboard in my hands that I am very pleased with, and I'd like to share some of the things I've learned so others can save some time and money making decisions. Most of this applies to MX-style mechanical keyboard switches. MX switches are the most diverse class of switches by far because the key cap and pins have been standardized so that nearly all the mechanical keyboards around today are compatible with any MX switch. I have little recent experience with others switch types like Alps and Topre because generally those switches are specific to the keyboard that contains them due to unique structure and mechanics that are incompatible with other motherboards and key caps. I've surely used some old IBM buckling-spring switches and Alps switches (Mac keyboards) in some bygone era, but it's been far too long to remember what they feel like. On to the lessons:

Cherry is a stagnant, conservative switch producer which has done very little to innovate in the industry since its patents ran out and ushered in a deluge of new companies cloning their design. Don't be fooled into thinking that they're the "premium" choice or whatever just because theirs was the original model for the MX-style switch. It's other manufacturers which have made dramatic design improvements in recent times.

MX Brown switches are an embarrassment to the mechanical keyboard community. Whether made by Cherry, Gateron, Kailh, or whoever else, the standard MX-style "Brown" switches are the most popular switch in the mechanical keyboard community... But it's not because they're actually good. It's because most consumer choice among prebuilt mechanical keyboards only comes in a few flavors of switches. For ages now, the standard options have either been some basic Red linear switch, a Blue clicky switch, and a quieter Brown tactile switch. The naming conventions of these generally follow Cherry's original theme even if they're clones by some other manufacturer. Between Brown and Blue switches Blues are easily the more tactile; however, most people settle for the Brown switches because they don't like the extra noise of clicky switches and those are the only choices given. But when compared to the huge, diverse class of non-clicky tactile switches, Browns have the weakest tactility of them all. In fact there is a running joke that they are really just scratchy linear switches.

Spring weight ratings claimed by manufacturers are often either slightly inaccurate or nowhere even close to the stated force. I found this out by testing my own switches with coins to measure their spring weight. Do not rely on spring force numbers to help you decide between different switches because they're extremely unreliable. The most directly comparable numbers are when manufacturers sometimes produce a switch model with multiple spring weight offerings. If you move beyond that to comparing different switch models, you enter very uncertain territory and should focus on other metrics to compare and contrast switches.

Tactile switches have gone through a sort of renaissance over the last several years with a flurry of innovations involving experimentation with the shape of switch stems (the piece of a switch that connects to the key cap and moves up and down), the general switch housing, and the shape of leaf springs (the part of the switch pushed on by the stem so that it connects with an opposing contact and completes the switch circuit). The general trend has been towards producing larger and more satisfying tactility than used to be available. The event with the largest impact by far was several years ago when users combined the stem of an Input Club Halo switch with the housing and other components of an Invyr Panda switch to produce the infamous "Holy Panda" switches. While these have now been superceded by better (and cheaper) non-hybrid switches, the legacy from this today is that there are now dozens of high-tacility switches cloning the general shape of the original Halo stem with insights borrowed from the Panda housing. While there are some unique deviations like Novelkeys' Box Royal and Blueberry switches, Input Club's Hako switches, and ZealPC's Zealios switches, for the most part we are still swimming in a sea of Holy Panda clones that all use an identical tactile bump to the original Halo stem with subtle variations on the switch housing and leaf spring. If you want a non-clicky switch with satisfying tactility, it's hard to go wrong with any of these. Just check to see if the stem looks like a Halo stem and you probably have a pretty good switch.

The switch that I finally decided on for my keyboard is a rather unique one called the Gazzew Boba U4. It's a Holy Panda-class switch with some tiny silicone bumpers on the stem that silence the loud clacking you often hear produced by mechanical keyboards when the switch stem crashes into the bottom of its housing on a key downstroke or is smacked into the top of the housing by the spring on the key upstroke. I feel like I finally took the plunge on mechanical keyboards at just the right time, because until this switch's release a year ago there was virtually zero competition in the niche of silenced, big-tactility switches. The only option people had until now were ZealPC's ludicrously expensive silent-and-high-tactility "Zilent" switches. If you wanted quiet, non-clacky switches that didn't cost upwards of $100 to fill a full-layout keyboard, you had to settle for some weakly-tactile silenced brown switches or silenced linear switches. I hadn't even been considering a silenced switch until I stumbled onto the Boba U4. It has comparable tactility to some of the most tactile switches while being silent and half the price of ZealPC's switches. I would definitely recommend it to others.

An unexpected issue that popped up when I finally assembled my keyboard was that the stabilizers on the big keys like Space and Backspace produced some loud clacking. This is normally not very noticeable when clacking switches make up the bulk of noise on a mechanical keyboard, but when you have silent switches they become by far the most prominent sound your keyboard makes. I managed to fix that up for the most part by sticking pieces of adhesive bandages underneath the stabilizer stems and clipping off all the little "legs" off the stems so that they can fully travel through their housing without smacking into anything. This modding has no apparent impact on the stabilizers' ability to stabilize my keys.

I now have a keyboard that is quieter and more tactile than my old membrane keyboard and is more reliable. To benchmark its performance, I played some Guilty Gear XX #Reload last night and a scrolling shooter that I do a fair bit of button mashing in, Image Fight. In Guilty Gear, I can still do I-No's tiger knee'd Chemical Love FRC -> instant air dash, one of the trickiest inputs you can find in a fighting game. And in Image Fight, I almost pulled off another single-credit clear of its debug-mode 2nd loop and recovered from various sinister checkpoints regardless. Mashing the shot button feels great with these keys. When I first started this journey I wasn't sure if I'd be able to replicate that satisfying feeling of button mashing with my previous membrane keyboard, but I am pleased with this.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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MathU
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by MathU »

As for low-profile switches, I never did end up trying them because of their incompatibility with MX-style motherboards. I realized that I pretty much always reach the bottom of my key presses because of my typing style. This means that the precise actuation point on a switch's travel (which is usually not at the bottom of mechanical switches) only really matters to me if it's near the top of the switch where my finger might not go during very fast key mashing. I'm not aware of any switches with the actuation point that early in the key press.

You can also use little rubber O-rings in the housing of your key caps to reduce the total travel distance on a key press. Thus, if you bottom-out your key presses like me, you can get something a bit similar to low-profile switch travel in regular MX-profile switches without any drawback. I also realized that my previous keyboard never actually had low-profile keys like I used to assume it did, the keys have the same travel distance as normal keys. The nearly-flat keycaps were the real feature that my fingertips enjoyed interacting with. Low travel distance ultimately wasn't as important to me as good-feeling tactility when I came to that realization. Using O-rings inside your keycaps you can reduce the top-to-bottom travel distance a good bit while benefiting from the far greater amount of diversity among MX-style switches. This is especially compatible with switches that have their tactile action near the top of their key press, which describes the vast majority of high-tactility switches at the moment.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by Licorice »

Great post. Very informative. I also got the feeling that the mechanical keyboard community doesn't see cherries as much special now that the market has opened up to (legal) clones. Also agree browns feel scratchy. At least these low profile ones certainly do. But again, it's not too different from my Seimitsu buttons. I don't have any Sanwa buttons, but my understanding is they're linear?
As for low-profile switches, I never did end up trying them because of their incompatibility with MX-style motherboards
Are you sure about that? For example from the Keychron K10 product page:
The K10 Gateron (Hot-swappable) version keyboard supports altering switches. Socket of Gateron (Hot-swappable) is compatible with almost all the MX style 3pin ("~" key supports 3pin only) and 5pin mechanical switches on the market (including Gateron, Cherry, Kailh, etc.). SMD-LED compatible switches are the best for showing the backlights.
and AFAICT low profiles e.g. these Gatreons are "MX style 3pin"s

Anyway What board did you end up using? What's the latency on it? Are you soldering or are you modding a hotswappable?
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MathU
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by MathU »

Look carefully at some low-profile vs standard MX switch images and you'll notice that both the pin positioning and orientation is actually a bit different between the two. It's big enough that you can't slot low-profile switches into normal MX sockets. Low-profile pins are closer to the edge of their switches and one of the pins is perpendicular to the other.

I went with the bare hotswappable Glorious Modular Mechanical Keyboard as my base and then got switches and key caps separately. The Keychron C2 was my original runner-up choice but there was something about it I don't remember liking quite as much that ultimately made me go with the GMMK. Your source claims the GMMK has high latency (20ms?) that makes it "less ideal for fast-paced, competitive gaming", but I'm frankly quite skeptical of that notion. Whatever the keyboard latency is, it seems fast enough for me to get most of my old Force Roman Cancels (I haven't played Guilty Gear seriously in quite some time now but at one point I had pretty much all the FRCs for every character figured out) and under a significant degree of already-existing Wine-induced input delay.

I remember checking out the input delay as I was looking at hotswappable keyboard options, and the list of options was so small I ended up concluding it didn't really matter to me as much as other things. I just presume if latency variability was high enough to matter for keyboards like these we would hear more people complaining about it. A friend got the Keychron C2 around the time I decided on my board and, as I can't actually remember why I went with the GMMK, I would definitely recommend the C2 for a nice cheap hotswap platform for further modding (the default switches aren't great).

In any event, it seems Glorious has been working on a firmware update recently for their "Pro" model that claims to provide users the ability to "lower the default 16ms latency to 8ms or 2ms". I wonder if such an update is coming for the original GMMK, and if I'll be able to apply it given Glorious's non-existent Linux support. Apparently the open-source QMK firmware has also been reported to substantially reduce input latency in the Pro model... at the cost of disabling LED lighting. I might try flashing my keyboard with that at some point, maybe.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by BIL »

Good work ITT Image
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by Licorice »

Look carefully at some low-profile vs standard MX switch images and you'll notice that both the pin positioning and orientation is actually a bit different between the two. It's big enough that you can't slot low-profile switches into normal MX sockets. Low-profile pins are closer to the edge of their switches and one of the pins is perpendicular to the other.
Good to know!
In any event, it seems Glorious has been working on a firmware update recently for their "Pro" model that claims to provide users the ability to "lower the default 16ms latency to 8ms or 2ms". I wonder if such an update is coming for the original GMMK, and if I'll be able to apply it given Glorious's non-existent Linux support. Apparently the open-source QMK firmware has also been reported to substantially reduce input latency in the Pro model... at the cost of disabling LED lighting. I might try flashing my keyboard with that at some point, maybe.
Nice. I think most game controllers (Dual shock, Xbox controllers etc.) are at like 2ms or so and 2ms is like only 12.5% frame miss (i.e. at 60fps, you press the button one frame, but your input is not visible in the next)

Also man I just don't care about LED lighting at all. It's just a non feature as far as I'm concerned. I guess it'd be annoying knowing the LEDs are physically there but non functional.

One thing I noticed is even though my G915 does indeed have 1-2ms latency over the 2.4Ghz receiver, it has a 20ms debounce time as measured with this simple tool. Well perhaps that's not the correct terminology, but what I mean is, you press the button, 1ms later your OS gets the key down event, but then even if you let go of the button say 5ms later (or 2ms, or 7ms, it doesn't matter) the key up event will come only after 20ms i.e. something in the keyboard firmware is queuing the event and making sure state changes don't occur faster than 50hz.

I know from e.g. writing autofire AHK scripts that with some games if you have a key down, key up, key down in the space of 1 frame, it will just register as key down every frame and won't actually autofire, if that makes sense.

So, it could be bounce tolerance, or it could be a conscious choice on the part of Logitech to ensure compatibility with various games (unlikely, but possible).

With my Ducky keyboard, I could get 6ms on that test, and apparently it's adjustable somehow with 6ms being the minimum and the default. I get that 6ms by flicking the corner of a key, but I'm not actually physically able to do that repeatedly to check the game effect, so I assume it's going to be the same as when it's scripted i.e. the key up events within the same frame will be eaten. The stated reason Ducky allows adjusting this upwards is to avoid double presses i.e. bounce tolerance.

But anyway practically what this all means is that with my current keyboard, if I was physically able to press the button at 50+hz, which is humanly impossible, it would be rate limited. IMO not a big deal. What matters more is that the initial press of a key is registered almost instantaneously.
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MathU
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Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by MathU »

Oh yeah, I almost forgot... Yes, I can hit pretty much as many keys as I can with a hand or arm or face with this GMMK keyboard and every single one of those inputs will register all at once. The "n-key rollover" is the real deal. I won't be dropping any inputs in Guilty Gear with this.
Licorice wrote:One thing I noticed is even though my G915 does indeed have 1-2ms latency over the 2.4Ghz receiver, it has a 20ms debounce time as measured with this simple tool.
Shortest Key Press: 0ms
Estimated Scan Rate: 1000Hz

Uhh, is this even possible? What does it mean? Is your tool broken?
Of course, that's just an opinion.
Always seeking netplay fans to play emulated arcade games with.
Licorice
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:04 am

Re: Keyboards specifically for arcade game enthusiasts

Post by Licorice »

Uhh, is this even possible? What does it mean? Is your tool broken?
I didn't write that tool but AFAIK lol no you shouldn't get 1000HZ with any switch mechanism key unless it's double pressing or you have a really really good switch. I know e.g. Cherries need a bounce tolerance of 5ms.

Which key did you get that with? I get 1000hz with e.g. the volume wheel (non switch mechanism).

Also it's just a QnD browser tool so many things can be going wrong somewhere.
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