Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
Licorice
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by Licorice »

SriK wrote:Action platformers are the parent genre, encompassing everything in side-view which loosely adheres to a classic structure (as opposed to Metroidvanias, aka "search action
This is anachronistic btw. Run'n'guns came first. Makaimura predates Rygar. I was surprised too.
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by To Far Away Times »

Duplicate post... sorry.
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

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BIL wrote:
And if you don't know the semi-obscure "Double-tap the shoulder buttons to quick-turn, counteracting spin tiles" mechanic, or the even less obvious "Keep the shoulder button depressed while lying prone, and you'll continue spinning when you get up" trick, you're boned at the st5 boss. You can indeed flatten both in very short order (1min apiece is very doable, from casual survival perspective) - and the latter's narrow footing and spawns are consistently dangerous, so I'm ok with 'em. Can immediately see why they annoy many, though.

(you can tell how nervous I was by my shameful victory non-pose @st5 boss. couldn't follow through on the st2 dominator! meanwhile, Master Hurblat goes ham like he's getting paid :shock:)

So I think III has higher highs, but also a degree of baggage HC avoids. I'm sure HC's best material, carefully arranged back-to-back, would've made a stronger game than either. Nakazato was avowedly going for replay value, but I think this was unfortunately shortsighted. I find the most replayable action games are the ones with the greatest volatility (Saigo and Dai are masterfully volatile from start to finish), with tactical variability the next greatest factor. With HC, I really have to steel myself to play more than a couple routes at a time, because each is gonna have me sitting through that jungle boss. The stage is okay, and even features one of HC's deadliest sequences, the Jungle Spheroid Bros' mortar rain... which you won't even necessarily see, and which is part-camouflaged by the status bar, but I love the do/die pressure, especially coupled with the slide's i-frames.

Incidentally, I grew up with the Genesis version, and am grateful for its lack of cheats (I'd have level-selected the whole thing in a weekend, after getting beaten into the floor by Noiman's Zodiacs) - but these days I like the MD one for its onboard stage select. Good way to play the Island Base, Alien Queen, Battle Train AND Big Magnum routes in one blistering shot. The game is 110% identical, save its hitpoints and Kanji, so F that noise about it being easier. It's just more easily learned. You got hit? UR DEAD AS FUKK IN MY BOOK SONNEH Image

The GBA Hard Spirits exemplifies the fine distinctions dealt with ITT - unlike every other Contra I know of, or the directly-related Sunset Riders and Mystic Warriors, you have to keep [forward] held during a jump, to continue advancing. This may sound academic on paper, but it is jarring in practice - forcing you to keep the stick depressed, rather than allowing you to upshot/downshot at leisure, a signature mechanic since minute 01 of the very first game.

Neat "grey label" effort - it loses quite a bit, but keeps enough that it's worth playing for some very odd curveballs. You wouldn't believe how dangerous HC's train bikers are in this version, where they're pretty much (legendarily satisfying) shrapnel tech demos on MD.
My trick for dealing with the stage 5 boss in Spirits is to hold the shoulder button that is opposite of the direction the sand is turning you. This more or less keeps you from turning at all and you can strafe. It does require some planning and positioning before jumping in the sand pit. I will say that the boss (and the stage as well) is the lowest point of the game. It should have been scrapped entirely in favor of something that is fun and actually feels good to play.

Stage 2 doesn't fare as bad but its not great. That leaves basically a 1/3 of the game feeling kinda sloppy and half-baked.

One reason I personally give Hard Corps the nod over Spirits is that I don't think it ever hits a point like that where I wanted to skip a stage and just get on with it. Hard Corps also feels like a proto Shattered Soldier, which is the game that got me into the series in the first place, and one my favorite games ever.
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by Licorice »

Alisia Dragoon and El Viento also count as particularly weird entries, in this sub-subgenre? I'm blanking on whether you can move while shooting in the former, it's been a while.
You can move while shooting in Alisia. As mentioned, it's an evolution of Thexder. Like Thexder, and unlike Rolling Thunder, there's no real platforming (you can't die by missing a jump) IIRC.
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

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To Far Away Times wrote:One reason I personally give Hard Corps the nod over Spirits is that I don't think it ever hits a point like that where I wanted to skip a stage and just get on with it. Hard Corps also feels like a proto Shattered Soldier, which is the game that got me into the series in the first place, and one my favorite games ever.
I'd rank Shattered Soldier over HC, despite a few M1 Cyclops/M4 Transformer-tier clunkers (Mission 2 tunnel bikers... what happened, put FC Super's laser shower up top FFS :shock:), simply for the Charged Flame Shot letting you tear 90% of bosses apart at breakneck pace, which will frequently expose you to dangers unheard of in "normal" play (even M1's defense grid is pretty frisky when sufficiently enraged, deluging the screen in a napalm downpour that I'll always treasure a couple of nostalgic friends, who'd heard the iconic Stage Clear jingle booming from my room and requested a full playthrough, yelling "HOOOLY FUCK" at :lol:). Mission 4's opening Ski Mech comes to mind - gets progressively weaker as he loses parts, unless you're demolishing him with CFS for the one-pass takedown - then he's a nailbiter! It's not even about speed to me, I'm not a speedrunner - I just dig being able to set my own pace while doing amazing violence to deserving targets. Image
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by To Far Away Times »

This will probably be an unpopular opinion but I like the setpiece design of HC and Shattered Soldier over the traditional platforming level format the series is known for. Its a joy tearing down boss after boss. And yeah, the charged flame shot is the boss buster in Shattered Soldier, though every weapon and charged shot has its uses.

I'd probably rank 'em like this (the ones I've put decent time into, anyway):

Shattered Soldier
Hard Corps
Contra NES/FC
Contra Spirits
Operation C (Gameboy)
Super Contra NES/FC
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by BIL »

Something I noticed, playing AC Contra, Super Contra and Sunset Riders in short order last year, is that the original was actually fairly setpiece (or at least novelty)-driven, to begin with. It's a remarkably brief game, even by AC standards - a seven minute clear is nothing - and after three brisk opening stages, two of them novelty 3D affairs, the last half is nonstop changeups.

Troop carrier* -> Zambonis -> Predator -> Flamejets -> Crushers & Carts -> Java, Spawners & Spiders.

(*who I've just realised, typing this, is probably what III and SS were referencing with their "Garth" VTOL... who makes the most satisfying *CRASH* sound as he slams into M3's elevator shaft, burning in the dark above :twisted:)

All of this occurs in the FC version, but it's well-padded with lots of pure action/platforming. I think this was actually a good move. The FC runtime remains super-tight, and its best feature - runner RNG - gets lots of variable terrain to play off. Easily dominated, but easily died at, too. In a way, it reinstates a bit of Green Beret's calculating platform routing, while remaining firmly carnage-centric.

AC Super Contra is very similarly paced (four bosses fought in rapid succession right off the bat), down to its FC incarnation adding a raft of action/platforming. So while Nakazato's three sidescrollers do downplay the FC games' action/platforming, I no longer consider that a departure. AC Super Contra was already well on its way to regular minibosses, with run/gunning interstitial. Spirits/Hardcorps' major addition was probably climbing and vehicles, upping the range of miniboss/setpieces available.

Sunset Riders (Dir. Hideyuki Tsujimoto, Super Contra) feels like "the other Contra III" - it's certainly not as midboss/setpiece driven as Nakazato's trilogy - and yet its relatively unbroken, stage-length run/gun is arguably more different from the two arcade Contras than Spirits is. Even its "vehicle stages" are pretty much all shooting, pardon that one wagon midboss in st2.
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by To Far Away Times »

I don't think I played the Contra AC games more than a credit or two, so they're a blank slate for me. Are they worth playing?
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

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Honestly, it depends on your tolerance for janky aim lag. They're both caked in it. :evil: However, you can work around it, with practice. Basically, the reason they lag is that, rather than snapping between the traditional eight directions, ala FC... they slowly cycle through 16. Or was it 24? Either way, it's ungodly slow. Play them like they're four-way sticks, and you'll sidestep most of the badness. This goes double for Super's topdown stages. Some good, concise stage/boss design underneath the jank.

JP Super has a really intense second and final loop, as Tsujimoto's games tended to. Very fond of it, though again, the aim lag workaround is imprinted on my bones at this point. :lol:

A STORM OF CUNTS :shock:
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Rad hyper-detailed GFX/SFX too. Forget that pussy-ass Gyaba in the FC cart. He's the last boss here, and he is intimidating! Blast out both his eyes for floorboard-rumbling enraged hissing! Infested corpses burst, exploded machines spark, death screams and battering explosions fill the air. One of those games (not unlike Hardcorps) that instantly gains when played at high volume.

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Just don't let Gyaba's zako loose, for fuck sake. The aim lag will eat you alive. Oh Tsujimoto. I'm so glad you guys to do Sunset Riders and Mystic Warriors, they're like ditching weighted training gear and wilding the fuck out. Image Image

Even being very fond of these games, I'd mostly recommend them for historical perspective. Lots of neat trivia, haha. Bangin', metal ballbag-dragging OST on Super, too, great filthy guitar tone! :twisted:
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by SriK »

BIL wrote:And if you don't know the semi-obscure "Double-tap the shoulder buttons to quick-turn, counteracting spin tiles" mechanic, or the even less obvious "Keep the shoulder button depressed while lying prone, and you'll continue spinning when you get up" trick, you're boned at the st5 boss. You can indeed flatten both in very short order (1min apiece is very doable, from casual survival perspective) - and the latter's narrow footing and spawns are consistently dangerous, so I'm ok with 'em. Can immediately see why they annoy many, though.
WTF lol. That is some great info, I never would have found this out myself (it's not in the US manual). Okay, next time I play this game I am going to try this out, as well as imitate your more aggressive approach where you just go straight for the targets without bothering to kill every enemy. You make these stages look way faster than I was playing them. I'm ruined by modern cover shooters :)
BIL wrote:The GBA Hard Spirits exemplifies the fine distinctions dealt with ITT - unlike every other Contra I know of, or the directly-related Sunset Riders and Mystic Warriors, you have to keep [forward] held during a jump, to continue advancing. This may sound academic on paper, but it is jarring in practice - forcing you to keep the stick depressed, rather than allowing you to upshot/downshot at leisure, a signature mechanic since minute 01 of the very first game.
This too, which I had never consciously realized before despite spending a lot of time with all these games (well, Spirits aside due to the aforementioned stages). I guess it's something you'd only really notice when it's gone. It's always a bit weird to have internalized a mechanic without knowing it; it's like brainwashing. Great knowledge to have on the dev side of things. (And now I remember that Metal Slug doesn't quite maintain your forward momentum.)
Licorice wrote:This is anachronistic btw. Run'n'guns came first. Makaimura predates Rygar. I was surprised too.
I wasn't attempting to describe the evolution of the genre, only to create a helpful framework to talk about these games today. Maybe "umbrella genre" would have been better phrasing, instead of "parent genre"; the point is that all these different types of side-view action games are cut from the same cloth, so we need a name for the cloth, and "action platformers" is as good a name as any. "Linear side-view action games" would probably be more descriptive, but it's verbose and clunky. (Green Beret predates Rygar too, by the way.)
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by Licorice »

SriK wrote:Green Beret predates Rygar too, by the way.
You can't fall to your death in Green Beret, so it's not a platformer, and you can't shoot by default (need a pickup) IIRC so it's not a run'n'gun.

Green Beret is a protovania, for sure, but not all the way there.

I agree you can categorize things any which way, but I've found the history very elucidating in terms of design elements and patterns.

IMO, thinking of run'n'guns as horizontal shmups with gravity and push scrolling is much more useful than thinking of them as Mario with guns, and also more historically correct.
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by Mortificator »

We're ranking 'em now? I think mine would go...

Contra
Contra III
Super Contra
Contra: Shattered Soldier
Neo Contra
Contra: Hard Corps
Contra Rebirth
Operation C
Contra 4
The Contra Adventure
Contra Force
Contra: Rogue Corps
Contra: Legacy of War

Still haven't hit up Uprising. And it took me a while to warm up to Rebirth, but it's such a better 16-bit revival than the game where they forgot to make the zako shoot. It's just a shame that its budget WiiWare nature leaves it strapped for content with merely five stages and three power-ups. The guys at M2 obviously understand the run & gun fundamentals, beef their boy up (Contra Rebirth: Rebirth?) and it'd easily jump a few places.
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by Licorice »

Oh and while we are discussing run'n'gun history I want to recommend Jump Bug.

What was the first anyway? Moon patrol?
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

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Mortificator wrote:The Contra Adventure
Contra Force
Contra: Rogue Corps
Contra: Legacy of War
I've played Contra Force (or should I say ARC HOUND - your rebadging antics won't fool me, Konami! :evil: well ok they did BITD :oops:) for five minutes, and the rest for none, but I do enjoy seeing them ranked. :cool:

(and I did so love M2 & Namiki reviving Contra Force's classically technical, unruly yet catchy AF st1 BGM for Rebirth's OST - what a life-affirmingly indefatigable action BGM!)

Sometimes I want to do a flip @ not going with BEANZU over BIRU for my namesake. 3; You just know there's a great story behind that moniker. *parp* He looks like an insouciantly rude fucker, too! Reminds me of HEINZ from some novel I can't remember, so named because he refused any other brand of, you guessed it, beans!

I wonder if that was deliberate. >_> This shit comes to me at night. See also "Galuga Archipelago / Gulag Archipelago" and the famous "Bill (Pullman) (Paul) Reiser & Lance (Henriksen) (Michael) Biehn." And that's just the JP side - the US Super C manual regales us with a storied cultural reference to The Phil Silvers Show, notoriously popular in the early 90s gradeschooler demographic!

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^ in hindsight, that was kinda cute, lampooning Khomeini in the ad for a game censored due to US dealings with. Good show KUSA. :lol:
Licorice wrote:Oh and while we are discussing run'n'gun history I want to recommend Jump Bug.

What was the first anyway? Moon patrol?
While it's predictable, I'm going with Contra as the earliest fully-formed example of scrolling character action with the firepower and bodycount of an STG. Lots of stuff comes close - Legend of Kage, Makaimura and Green Beret are all thoroughly kill-crazed sidescrollers, as is Commando in the topdown sphere - without quite committing to the shooting, for one reason or another (all of those variously ration your onscreen firepower).

It's the spreadshot, specifically. Contra's the first of these to keep dominating, STG-grade firepower onscreen as a matter of course. The best way to deal with your enemies, bar none, is to blanket them in a hail of gunfire so intense, it can buffet their exploding bodies clean off the top of the screen, if you're vindictive enough.

That guy is dead! (■`ω´■)
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I'd better make sure though (■`ω´■)
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Triceps Of Steel are impressive but unnecessary. (■`ω´■)
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Just shoot the fucker. (`ω´メ)

This leads into Super Contra, specifically its Japanese loop, where (as GIFFed a few posts back), you are practically swimming in shredded meat and shattered machines. The almighty deathcock is not Spreadgun, this time around, but Super Machinegun, a flagrantly OP weapon which literally had loketesters screaming "KIMOCHIII!" - so moving the devs, it was left un-nerfed.

It's a bit like the "first heavy metal band" discussion. A lot of stuff from at least the 1950s, if not earlier, went towards Black Sabbath's debut LP - you'd be insane to say those guys came up with their sound unaided, or that there isn't earlier work warranting just as much attention (Moon Patrol has aged more gracefully than Contra, undeniably). Regardless, that record was your single best bet for horrifying your parents, your pastor, and probably your dog in one window-rattling shot, back in its day.

I would put 1986's Ikari very close to Contra's critical mass - you can cause some biblical devastation in that one. Only thing that holds it back is rationing - grenades are tricky to connect with, tanks are short-lived, and while you have enough rounds to kill everything on sight, you can't Pump Them With Bullets. Metal Slug would revive both concepts a decade later, with notably looser rationing, enabling the player to cut loose in the manner I consider integral to running and gunning.

WHOA, IT'S BEAUTIFUL <3<3<3 (◎ω◎;)
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by Licorice »

BIL wrote:It's the spreadshot, specifically. Contra's the first of these to keep dominating, STG-grade firepower onscreen as a matter of course. The best way to deal with your enemies, bar none, is to blanket them in a hail of gunfire so intense, it can buffet their exploding corpses clear off the top of the screen, if you're vindictive enough.
Interesting take. Spread shot as a discriminator includes Ninja Spirit, but doesn't include Metal Slug or the Makaimuras (at least not the first one, IIRC), and no one uses Ranger Force in Alien Soldier.

I like my genre discriminators hard and clear cut, hence why I avoid something hard to measure such as "firepower". It's also why I don't have "danmaku" as a separate genre in my head, and instead I differentiate based on things like whether the camera can pan, or whether there's a ground layer (and how the hitboxes on the ground layer work).

Following this thought, I want to add that Rolling Thunder and arcade Shinobi have a hard sub-genre discriminator - the plane (or level) switching thing - since you mentioned them earlier.

Anyway this is all very pedantic, I understood what you meant just fine, just like I understand what danmaku is.
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by BIL »

Oh no, I wouldn't say spreadshot itself is a signifier. It's just the weapon Contra used to create a level of shooting efficacy not seen before. It could be anything, as seen with Super Contra's SMG, or Saigo's x3 POW Grenades, or Alien Soldier's Flame/Lancer/Phoenix triad, or Metal Slug X's vast array of high-yield monsters (HMG, Rocket Lawnchair and Enemy Chaser give impressive coverage... but Flame Shot, Shotgun and Super Grenade will let you stomp stages into the floor, and must be prioritised accordingly!). Some other games have formidable base shots, like Shock Troopers' heavier characters, with their tightly-rationed special weapons doing deliberately outlandish, short-lived damage.

RE: Shock Troopers :o I just realised I'd completely forgotten Dogosoken, also a year before Contra. Starkly unlike Ikari, Dogo's ammunition is unlimited, and you can cause some astonishing, steamrolling carnage. Just look at - and listen to - this madness. It feels amazing, I was hooked instantly. Image Just like Saigo, though, despite offering remarkably kinetic destruction, Dogo is equally geared around bladed counter-offense. You'll have a horrible time in both, if you're not good at swatting away swarms of incoming bullets.

Like Sumez, I wouldn't put Daimakaimura quite in this full-on "run & gun" territory, nor Shinobi or Rolling Thunder. They're all games where shooting is fundamental, but they tend more towards precision than overkill. And as I say, while Saigo is easily on par with Contra and Slug for shooting, it maintains Kage's bullet-cancelling blade. Make no mistake, the Red Rabbit and his Bakuretsu Usagi no Ken is a terrible sight to behold! But one step backwards, and you're getting a kunai in the chest, or a wolf up your ass, or vice-versa! Image Probably BOTH :shock: Shinobi has a similar counter-balance in its own blade, albeit for totally different reasons.

RE Alien Soldier - no kidding, I've a long-standing frustrated attraction to Ranger Force. I suspect Gold Ranger is the best way to run/gun those bastard snowflies guarding Act 3's inverted walkway. Everyone I know creeps forward with Blue Flame, as shown.

Then again, after a couple successes, one time I tried it and got shot square in the face on approach. So maybe not. :lol:

And I know for a fact, Blue Ranger can dominate Act 4's Catman Bikers to such a ridiculous extent, the game will slow to an extended crawl, each furry fuckface obliterated in a shower of flames and debris as fast as they're respawned. Very difficult to make AS slow down for long, feels rad. :cool: But since Ranger is otherwise BTFO by the iron fist of Flame/Lancer/Phoenix, it's a huge pain in the ass switching to it without missing a beat just for those two bits. Something for a rainy day.
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by Gamer707b »

Mine would be Metal Slug 1 and 2, Alien Soldier, Contra Hard Corps, Gunstar Super Heroes, and the newish Blazing Chrome. Which I think is every bit a Contra sequel as a Contra sequel could be.
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

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SriK wrote: Then it also depends how literally you take the "and". Makaimura, Shinobi, and Rolling Thunder are really run-or-guns, since you can't do both at the same time, and I think this difference in handling is one of the key things separating them from Contra and Metal Slug.
There are probably a few other factors, but I think that's a pretty good pointer. I've seen Makaimura classified as run'n'gun a few times, but it just doesn't feel like one to me. It's more of a RNG-infested Castlevania (which by extent is something I absolutely love), despite the default attack being a projectile.
Speaking of Contra, I'm surprised to see that everyone so overwhelmingly prefers III over Hard Corps. Its side-view stages are immaculate, and they're much more dynamic than HC's (with less cruft like HC's cyclops miniboss and jungle boss)...
This is a subject I've seen repeated so many places on the internet it's a little funny. Most places HC wins over, but I think it's also because its qualities are genuinely more superficial (they are still qualities though), which makes it easier for people to appreciate. Amazing visual flavor and a constant sense of action, branching paths and all that jazz.
This forum seems to be one of the few places where people recognize what Contra 3 does better, and it was actually the primary reason I got back into posting here after a few years of absence :P

Few people think to consider that when you really sit down and try to master Hard Corps, it very quickly turns into a super rote memorization playback, where you just do this pattern and then that pattern all the way till the end.
You can definitely memorize your way out of a majority of Contra 3's challenges as well - and what I said above almost applies to most of the Castlevania games I hold dear, or even Ninja Gaiden. But in those games, every action usually still feels tighter, and closer tied to some sort of reaction to what's gong on, with less actual downtime. And on Hard Mode, there's always a healthy amount of RNG to react to in Contra 3.
The jungle boss is of course one of Hard Corps' worst offenders, but I think the tendency it shows also shows up in smaller doses everywhere else in the game. I love the game still, but it's not as exciting as 3, which I consider probably the pinnacle of its genre.

Maybe it does just come down to how much you hate the top-down stages, though? They get a lot of hate, and although they aren't great I do find them inoffensive, in the same way the bases in NES Contra don't bother me much. There are actually aspects of them that are kinda fun, but yeah I'd still trade them for another sidescrolling stage in a heartbeat.
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by Ghegs »

Sumez wrote:Maybe it does just come down to how much you hate the top-down stages, though? They get a lot of hate, and although they aren't great I do find them inoffensive, in the same way the bases in NES Contra don't bother me much. There are actually aspects of them that are kinda fun, but yeah I'd still trade them for another sidescrolling stage in a heartbeat.
My issue with the top-down stages are two-fold: I don't think they fit the game conceptually (the series is otherwise purely linear action fare as far as individual stages go, even in the base stages of Contra or top-down stages of Super Contra...so why a maze where I have to find my way around?) and while that's something I could deal with, I actually find them physically uncomfortable to play. The Mode 7 rotation does something that causes my eyes to hurt and I feel slightly queasy, no matter whether I play it myself or just watch a video.

So yeah, purely because I physically can't stand playing those stages, Contra III is at the bottom of my list. That's partly why I like Hard Spirits, because I at least get to experience the good stages, even if in a slightly different form. Was a shame it wasn't included in the Contra Anniversary Collection, but I have my original JP cart.

I actually (finally) played through Blazing Chrome a few weeks ago, and it's good stuff. Will try to go for a 1CC one of these days. I also got Tanuki Justice a little while ago, and initial impressions were favorable, though I haven't had time to put it through its paces. Saw a video of the hardest difficulty and the enemy/bullet coverage seemed to ramp to almost danmaku levels...
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by BIL »

I'm gonna revise my answer to "earliest run/gun" by a year - 1986's Xain'd Sleena (developed by Technos, published by Taito) is one of those games that never saw anything resembling an accurate home release, which I'd kept for a rainy decade. Glancing at a ReplayBurners ALL, it has the bi-lateral rampancy that Green Beret, Kage and Makaimura never quite go for.

As noted previously, this regarding sidescrollers only. For topdown, I'd go back as far as 1985 with Commando/Senjou no Okami, though I prefer 1986's Ralf n Clark Senki: Ikari & Dogosoken.

EDIT: Although, where both Capcom and SNK's foundational works are concerned, Taito's Front Line (1982) must be given its due. For topdown run/guns, I'd currently plot their evolution as Front Line (founder), Senjou (pacing boost, and switch to directional aiming) and Ikari (combined Senjou's intensity with FL's rotary shooting, inspired a subgenre's worth of imitators starting with DECO's Heavy Barrel).

EDIT2: Doh! Obada's TANK predates his Ikari by a year, of course. Not quite as clean a Front Line redux (you're in a tank with an HP bar for its duration, and your weapons are a rotary-aimed turret and a directionally-aimed machinegun), but certainly worth mentioning. I've still not put serious time on it, will have to rectify that this year.
Last edited by BIL on Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by Sumez »

Got myself a cheap Xain'd Sleena PCB last year. While it does look a little janky, I can't wait to dig into that one some time soon.
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by XoPachi »

My favorites are definitely Super Cyborg and Contra 4.

I love how faithful and clean a game Cyborg is. A lot of run and guns sort of turned into more "bossing" than "running" as the genre picked up. I liked how Super Cyborg really has more of an equal focus. The levels are very hard platforming with an onslaught of baddies. But the bosses are also extremely tight battles (too tight in the case of the stage 3 fight, but we gotta take L's sometimes). I also appreciate how unconventionally hideous most of the bosses were. Like a child's imagination run amok in the best way. Some of these guys were so bizarre, scary, and disgusting. I loved it.
Weapons placed very deliberately. Inventive new takes on old Contra level design. And something about it's aesthetic is just waaay more authentic to 80's games than a lot of indie attempts to me. I can't pinpoint anything specific, it just looks very "of the time". Right down to design choices. Not just the specifics of the graphical fidelity and music.

Not much to say on Contra 4 other than it was always extremely refreshing. Back to basics, but with twists where it mattered. Classic. Felt great. Sounded great. Looked great. Loads of content. A shocking amount of unlockables I was so pleased to get. Basically the first decent handheld ports of the NES Contra's? God yes. Tons of playable characters. Amazing level design with an excellent use of the DS's two screens without being gimmicky.
It's funny...and I hate to say it because I've got friends that work there, but I don't care for anything from WayForward. I find Contra to be their magnum opus. Really the best I've played in the genre and it outshines things they've even released after it. I really liked it.
And who could dislike a game with a gun that shoots Vic Vipers?
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

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Contra 4 isn't just the best WayForward game by a landslide, it's also their only game that works itself up above "acceptable way to pass the time". I feel like they could make much better games consistently if they really tried for it more often.
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by To Far Away Times »

I've tried to get into Contra 4 several times and I just can't do it.

The vertical aspect ratio with missing space inbetween design just kills it for me. It also forces the horizontal movement to be kinda slow. Its a shame, because it looks like there's a good game in there, but I guess it's just not for me.
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by GGA_HAN »

Xain'd Sleena / Solar Warrior is definitely worth a play or 2, just don't play it for score (on default settings, at least). There's a few infinite milking points so MARP had to make special rules to avoid super boring counterstops

Here's my clear I did a few years back, if anyone is interested.
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by Sumez »

Unfortuntely it's hard to think of any run'n'gun platformer that doesn't have a broken scoring system like that.
1CC play all the way
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by Ghegs »

To Far Away Times wrote:I've tried to get into Contra 4 several times and I just can't do it.

The vertical aspect ratio with missing space inbetween design just kills it for me. It also forces the horizontal movement to be kinda slow. Its a shame, because it looks like there's a good game in there, but I guess it's just not for me.
Exact same experience. Every so often I look at the game on my shelf and sigh resignedly. Also the fact that it's on the DS, which to my hands isn't the most comfortable thing for action games.

I've tried playing the game on an emulator so I could at least use a proper controller and while it certainly improves thing, that gap is tough to get used to.
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by BIL »

GGA_HAN wrote:Xain'd Sleena / Solar Warrior is definitely worth a play or 2, just don't play it for score (on default settings, at least). There's a few infinite milking points so MARP had to make special rules to avoid super boring counterstops

Here's my clear I did a few years back, if anyone is interested.
You've got great taste in action games, Han. :mrgreen: <3
Sumez wrote:Unfortuntely it's hard to think of any run'n'gun platformer that doesn't have a broken scoring system like that.
1CC play all the way
Haha, yeah. Only one that comes to mind offhand is Gigantic Army, which balances speed and precision nicely. Your remaining seconds are your stage multiplier, so enemy milking literally isn't worth the time. However, you can't just blunder through, because you'll take damage, which will stop excess HP/POW pickups from converting to lucrative chunks of score. So there's a nice equilibrium, particularly with the Valkenesque arcade/sim handling.

It's a very simple system, but tbh, those tend to be my favourite nowadays, even with traditional STGs. Action game = destroy all enemies, at least as many as you can without eating shit yourself. Metal Slug XX seems to have some interesting score potential, and certainly some spectacular replays - I like knowing the system's there for a rainy day. Currently though, I can't be arsed plotting out stages to time my massacres for maximum coin drops, then time my coin pickups for max multiplier. Whether that poor fuck getting his wig split under my camel's hooves was worth x16 or just the one, what's important is he showed up and did his best. Image

Blast Away And Go Go Go, naw mean :cool:
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Re: Favorite Run'N'Gun Game(s)?

Post by Marc »

GGA_HAN wrote:Xain'd Sleena / Solar Warrior is definitely worth a play or 2, just don't play it for score (on default settings, at least). There's a few infinite milking points so MARP had to make special rules to avoid super boring counterstops

Here's my clear I did a few years back, if anyone is interested.
Nice! I've always wanted a mess around with this one, ever since wringing a few enjoyable rainy afternoons out of the endearingly shonky Spectrum port back in the mists of time. Was hoping it might have showed on ACA by now.

That's one thing that series has done - I don't relay want to invest too much time into emulated games now in case they make an official appearance.
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