Jarpig pride worldwide (Let's talk about JRPGs)

[BryanM]

Sadly, I think I'm old and jaded enough that I need more than basic world-saving and numbers-go-up.

It's characters that make it possible to go through the same thing again and again. Which only fractures the playerbases even more because who someone wants as their imaginary friends can vary a lot more wildly than many other design decisions.

The whole golden age thing where everyone cares about going off on a quest to stab the demon king in the face with a sword, well. It was a goldmine that couldn't long last. And it shouldn't have.

Premises are a mere novelty and aren't enough to carry any long-runner. As anyone who's tried any kind of fiction quickly finds out.

You might be surprised how much numbers-go-up can still work however, as long as it's not bogged down by long boring mandatory story sequences. Numbers are a scary drug.

How well regarded are the PS2 remakes of the first two PS games?

Pretty much crickets. I guess my impression of them would be roughly all players ever think about them if they ever do: looks kind of like a cheap reskin. At best a side grade. At worst, they probably screwed up something crucial like the music somewhere.

These were parts of SEGA compilation discs, if I remember correctly? Much like Square's Legendary Mobile Division, those gave off the scent of being outsourced to the lowest bidder to some starving nerds in the third world. Take a gander at their Golden Axe "remake".

No, not the PSX3 Miss Flare 3d game that came later. The PSX2 Golden Axe game that was Golden Axe 1, but with 3d models. That one.

That they'd throw'em on a greatest hits mixtape with that? It doesn't inspire confidence. : /

Finding someone who's actually played the things is like finding a leprechaun. Those who allege that they've tried it, say it didn't give them cancer and kill them.

[EmperorIng]

If anything, besides the loss of a better fan translation, I usually hear only good things about the AGES M2 port of Phantasy Star 1. Did that include a mode to cut down the grind?

[Air Master Burst]

If anything, besides the loss of a better fan translation, I usually hear only good things about the AGES M2 port of Phantasy Star 1. Did that include a mode to cut down the grind?

Unsure about the grinding as I've never played this version, but the inclusion of an automap should cut down the total playtime considerably. Assuming they didn't mess anything else up, that alone should make it the definitive version.

ETA: Cutting down on the grind would be an even better addition, though!

[Sengoku Strider]

If anything, besides the loss of a better fan translation, I usually hear only good things about the AGES M2 port of Phantasy Star 1. Did that include a mode to cut down the grind?

Yeah, Ages mode lowers the encounter rate a ton while giving you way more XP & meseta than the original did for battles. It also includes the FM soundtrack, something we've never had available in the West in any release of the game AFAIK (yeah, I know it was buried in the code on the actual cart). In fact I don't even think the Japan-only Mega Drive re-release of the game had it.

That said, I finished the game au naturel a couple of years back, and I didn't think it was all that bad in the grand scheme of things. There are one or two dungeons that get pretty ridiculous in their layouts, and one "How the fuck was I supposed to figure that out??" moment near the end of the game, but overall it was a memorable time. I can't imagine what it must have been like to play it back in 1988. Side by side it crushes the original Final Fantasy so bad it literally looks (and with the FM, sounds) a generation ahead of it, despite originally releasing 3 days apart in Japan (and Final Fantasy releasing 2 years later in the West).

It's a shame it got buried on a system nobody knew existed (even in Europe at that point), because playing through the series in order makes some of the moments throughout the quadrilogy so much cooler. This M2 standalone release is long overdue.

Unsure about the grinding as I've never played this version, but the inclusion of an automap should cut down the total playtime considerably. Assuming they didn't mess anything else up, that alone should make it the definitive version.

It wasn't really necessary, since the original game's manual included maps of everything. That said, I say embrace the long-lost art of hand drawn mapping. It's actually quite the pleasure to have a tactile, analogue element alongside the ephemeral digital one. And you can get creative & artistic with it, leaving you a memento of your experience once it's all done.

[BryanM]

It's really crazy how much a couple of years back then changed everything. Compare Tennis or Lode Runner on the SG-1000 versus the equivalent game on the NES, it's crazy. They were almost like 2600 games.

Controllers look like it, too. Did these things, the built-in original controller, even have two buttons?

Ooo, the Master System had a pause button on the console and some games expected you to use it, like to switch weapons. That sounds like a great feature.

[Air Master Burst]

It wasn't really necessary, since the original game's manual included maps of everything. That said, I say embrace the long-lost art of hand drawn mapping. It's actually quite the pleasure to have a tactile, analogue element alongside the ephemeral digital one. And you can get creative & artistic with it, leaving you a memento of your experience once it's all done.

Sure, if you happen to have picked up a physical copy that still has the map with it.

Hand-mapping just takes way too long, and then there's the storage issues. I regularly DM tabletop rpgs, and even there I won't do any more than the occasional quick scratch paper sketch for like a complicated combat or something.

If you enjoy hand-mapping that's great! I personally hated it as a kid, so the nostalgia factor ain't really that high here. Not to mention the graphics, while pretty amazing in context, are primitive enough it's way too easy to get turned around in those first-person mazes.

Version with automap > version without, and that's before getting into the other quality of life improvements!

[Steamflogger Boss]

It's really crazy how much a couple of years back then changed everything. Compare Tennis or Lode Runner on the SG-1000 versus the equivalent game on the NES, it's crazy. They were almost like 2600 games.

Controllers look like it, too. Did these things, the built-in original controller, even have two buttons?

Ooo, the Master System had a pause button on the console and some games expected you to use it, like to switch weapons. That sounds like a great feature.

It's cool how much innovation was happening back then, working within tight constraints.

As far as recent JRPG plays, I did Persona 5 and am currently playing Persona 4. This is a cry for help.

[Sima Tuna]

I'm playing CrossCode right now and it's blowing my mind. Extremely high bar set for story, characters, music and gameplay. Might be a little too puzzle-heavy for some players though. The combat is sort of zelda-like (or illusion of gaia like) but the story is pure classic jarpig.

[Necronopticous]

Super early look at a JRPG I have been developing with my wife over the last several months:

RPGirl - Summer 2021 Development Progress

Battle system finally coming together mechanically. Still a lot of work to be done.

It has been almost exactly a year since I posted about RPGirl. Here's a new 4-minute look for anyone interested:

RPGirl: First Slice - New Game

[BulletMagnet]

Perhaps the only game I've encountered where a rocker jamming on a guitar in the middle of the woods serves as a natural progress barrier.

[Sengoku Strider]

I've groused a little (not a lot) about Sword of Vermillion in the past. I got maybe a quarter of the way through it on the Switch Genesis Collection, then put it down intending to return some day, but never quite making it.

I picked up a Mega Drive copy because they're dirt cheap. My major complaint had been that the battle system is pathetic. This remains completely true, but playing it on the actual hardware rather than the laggy Collection does improve things a bit.

But what really hit me was looking at the instruction manual, and seeing ads for Tatsujin & Golden Axe in the back as the "New Mega Drive Lineup!" I'd always thought of Vermillion as 2nd generation software, it didn't hit the West until 1991. I'm sure I knew about the Japanese date before, but this really let it sink in that wow, this game (ever so slightly) predates Golden Axe, it's that early. It's older than Final Fantasy III or Megami Tensei II or the original Fire Emblem. There were only like 2 RPGs on the PC Engine when it came out (Jaseiken Necromancer & Tengai Makyo. Toss in Gauntlet-with-XP, AKA Dungeon Explorer if you'd like). It was entirely a product of the 1980s.

None of this makes its battle system not silly, but it does lighten the load on the rest of the game's elements. I'd bet that 3D scaling world looked incredible to eyes accustomed to Dragon Quest III as the height of Japanese console RPG design (though Phantasy Star II had been out for a few months). And the one thing I will give the battle system - to the extent that it is in any way systematic - is that at least the fights come & go quickly. You get hit with a lot of them, but it's not as painful as it would be in just about any of its contemporaries. The game is a little heavier in story elements than PStar II, and on par with a DQ game of the time. Looking at how basic even much of the Mega Drive's 1989 software still was at that point, it seems a lot more ambitious in this context than I had previously felt.

[Blinge]

fuckin DQ11 Lord of Shadows is a contender for least amount of fun i've had in a videogame.

I'm average lvl 53..

I maybe got 2 rounds of good damage in with luminary attack buffed and the boss defense debuffed.. and that was it.
The rest of the fight was a steady MP decline while I try to heal+revive..
boss summons an add that raises both their defense, couldn't kill it quick enough.
just everyone running out of MP. Miserable.

don't tell me i need to have sylv's gay ass dancing around to heal for the whole of the (final?) battle.
I don't usually use him

[Blinge]

Okay done it lol.

Truly Sylvando and his prancing MVP

... now do i want to leave the draconian quest on for the postgame stuff... ?

[Sumez]

fuckin DQ11 Lord of Shadows is a contender for least amount of fun i've had in a videogame.

At the time I'd outfitted my entire party with protection against "dark" damage type or whatever the game calls it (had to farm for a few devil's tails - that was almost grinding, but I think that kind of preparation for the endgame is a part of the charm, and it went quite quick ), so thanks to that the Lord of Shadows was fairly easy, I think I got him in one or two tries. Though I guess that's not much use to you now if you've already got him down - good job.

... now do i want to leave the draconian quest on for the postgame stuff... ?

Definitely leave it on. By the time you reach the postgame, the difficulty will have evened out - I think people playing without draconian challenges might find the postgame tougher, but if you've played the whole game with it - it will be a lot easier from this point.
Postgame is very centered around cleaning up a bunch of challenges and collection quests, etc. A bit more tedious, but it has a bunch of additional plot that changes things a lot, and the extra ending is super cute. The postgame boss is completely designed around preparation, so if you do the gimmick thing you're supposed to do, it's very easy no matter the difficulty modifiers. And if you don't, it's super hard.

[Blinge]

Lord of Shadows was fairly easy, I think I got him in one or two tries

yeh i mean i literally did it second attempt. lvl 55
Just the first attempt was long.
Probably the winning attempt was long too, i didn't track the time.
just having sylv dance and oomphle instead of using Rab was the adjustment I needed.

I already had devil tails made to help me with Mr. Unbound beforehand cause he was pretty much wiping me in one turn.

The postgame boss is completely designed around preparation, so if you do the gimmick thing you're supposed to do, it's very easy no matter the difficulty modifiers.

Does the game communicate that i'm supposed to do a certain thing? or is this info to be found online instead?

..
winning is completely unsatisfying due to you and jerks online saying they found it easy.
now i just feel like I suck at the game

edit: will turn draconian off in a heartbeat once the only thing left for me to do is get trophies

[Sumez]

winning is completely unsatisfying due to you and jerks online saying they found it easy.
now i just feel like I suck at the game

Psh, don't blinge my words. I just said the final boss is easier with dark resistance, it's definitely far from the toughest challenge, too.
I never said DQXI is easy, given you're playing it with proper draconian challenges. Rather, the challenge is what makes it satisfying.

Does the game communicate that i'm supposed to do a certain thing? or is this info to be found online instead?

Kinda. I think it communicates it well, but I've seen people misunderstand that they are supposed to perform a certain action during the fight, as opposed to just equipping the weapon in question.
You may need to respec the Luminary, but respeccing should probably be second nature at this point.

[Blinge]

Think i’ve respecced 3 characters max.
Did you have double devil tails on each character?

[Sumez]

I can't remember how many I used, but yeah I wouldn't rule out that at least some characters had two. I switched characters a lot for the final battle though. I also used the forge to boost its effectiveness, but I'm guessing that's a given.

[Sima Tuna]

Live A Live is very good. I'm a big fan of the Saga series and this feels quite similar in tone. Of course, you don't have to pay $50 for the new switch remake. You can always just emulate the SNES game. The remake is faithful to the original game and basically the same, although I did spot some minor censorship in the caveman scenario. Some of the monkeys don't shake their tits like they used to. VERY disappointing.

As a massive kung fu movie nerd, the kung fu scenario was highly enjoyable. You start as a max level (for the scenario) character who can't gain any experience. You have to recruit and train your students instead. It was extremely rewarding when my "pupil" character became stronger than the sensei.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I've started replaying the Tales series. I want to go through and play all of the main games, including ones I've missed previously (ToD PSX, Eternia, Legendia). I'm actually starting with the SNES one for kicks... and I'm actually even more disappointed with the DeJap translation than the first time I'd tried it.

The gratuitous sex and profanity inserted into the dialogue isn't even what I'm annoyed about. There's actually a ton of outright errors in item descriptions that makes it impossible to know what items do unless you experiment or are familiar with other games in the series.

The Holy Rune? It doesn't raise max HP by 5% as described. Rather, it auto regens by 5% at fixed intervals throughout a fight. Medicine bottles don't simply cure poison in battle; they cure status and also provide immunity to statuses including more serious ones like Paralyze and Petrify (I think for the rest of the fight, goes away if you die). This makes them super handy for the first Ymir Forest where Snakemen who petrify on hit ambush you and can very, VERY quickly wipe you despite not hitting terribly hard.

It's not a bad game though, I prefer it to Star Ocean SNES by a wide margin (the battle system's better IMO, movement isn't as weird, something SO2 and 3 fix). My only major complaint is you can't toggle what spells are allowed for the AI to cast mid-battle... something that's addressed in the definitive PSX version (and something not even Star Ocean 3 had figured out how to do, lol).

The encounter rate is also way too high. It's tolerable with liberal use of Holy Bottles, but it feels like the normal rate should be what it is when Holy Bottles are active (especially considering Dark Bottles can be used to help grind quickly when you want).

[Blinge]

Psh, don't blinge my words.

sorry.
also can that please not be a verb

Ah man i don't like the Act 3 concept AT ALL

Spoiler

hero leaving the timeline in which he has won?? no... no no! I hated it in OoT and I hate it now!

[TransatlanticFoe]

Oh fuck I'm going to have to juggle Live A Live with Xenoblade 3 next week - y u no space these out Ninty?!

[Sumez]

Ah man i don't like the Act 3 concept AT ALL

Spoiler

hero leaving the timeline in which he has won?? no... no no! I hated it in OoT and I hate it now!

Yeahh, it also kinda distills some of the more interesting story beats of the main story I think, it feels more like a fanfiction continuation of the plot, so it makes sense to have it after the credits. Though the whole part of it that ties into Erdwin's Lantern is pretty nice to get closure on

Oh, and can you spot the plothole it introduces?

[Sima Tuna]

Oh fuck I'm going to have to juggle Live A Live with Xenoblade 3 next week - y u no space these out Ninty?!

Live A Live is pretty short. You can burn through it in a couple days and then be on to Xeno 3 if that's your bag.

Despite its short length (which I view as a positive, not a negative,) Live A Live is a 10/10 for me. The music is phenomenal. I mean, it always was. But burgers like me didn't know it. These new arrangements are mindblowing. Finished up the Far Future scenario today and now I'm headed into the Knight scenario. Far Future's story is excellent. These scenarios are each very unique and have their own items, music, gameplay tweaks and gimmicks. But they're all of a very high quality.

The game being so short means there's always room to jump back in. I'm glad the remake includes a jukebox, because these songs... This shit is chrono trigger tier, easy. It's among the best in the entire genre. The ninja battle theme with the pounding drums, Megalomania as the boss music for every final boss, the kick-ass, hot-blooded mecha song, Ennio Morricone getting the fuck ripped off him for the Cowboy story... The game is great. The music is great. The visuals of the remake are great. I'm honestly not sure which part is best, because this is a game with both substance and style in equal measure. If you like older jrpgs then you will love Live A Live.

[Blinge]

Oh, and can you spot the plothole it introduces?

I haven't got far in at all because I run it after 10pm and immediately doze off and have to give up. but i'll have a go..

Spoiler

Isn't the plothole the usual time paradox shit? Like.. if Veronica never dies.. then various things would never happen. possibly including finding the time tower itself.. The luminary certainly wouldn't have a reason to go back in time again, which means he's erasing his own actions - including his being sent back in time.. so that wouldn't happen either and veronica wouldn't be saved??? I don't know man.. my brains' heating up just thinking about it.

I had a better idea last night but i've forgotten.

Either that or the Hero disappearing from the world he saved leaves an alternate timeline in which those friends never see him again..

[Sumez]

Nah, it's nothing that convoluted. It just feels like the developers completely forgot about the order of certain events

[Sengoku Strider]

At the back of the instruction manual for Vermilion, there's a message from the developers explaining that they tried to design the combat so that people who aren't good at action games would still be able to do well at it. I guess having half your enemies aimlessly wander about in circles is one way to accomplish that. Still, the fact that there was at least a plan does soften me on it a little.

But holy damn that does not explain how brutal that fight with the little girl who turns into the giant two-headed demon is. The first fight was fine, I could just mash my way through, just like the previous bosses. But the second fight I just got wiped.. Then again. Then again. So I levelled up. And got wiped again. And again. So I levelled up two more levels. And got wiped. And wiped again. Finally, after grinding double the total amount of experience I had earned up to that point in the entire game I was able to eke out a win. On my second attempt.

I kept thinking there was some element I was missing - a spell the game would let me cast (nope), some way to use my shield and block (nope), some way to heal (nope), some item I needed to use beforehand (nope). You just need to hope it doesn't throw both high & low fireballs at you at the same time. And if it does, that you have the split-second timing with the clunky combat that you need to knock out both.

But I guess it does say something that I was willing to put in the effort.

[BrianC]

It also includes the FM soundtrack, something we've never had available in the West in any release of the game AFAIK (yeah, I know it was buried in the code on the actual cart)

The code for FM was actually removed completely from the US/EU Phantasy Star. The only other game to do so was Ys.

[Sengoku Strider]

It also includes the FM soundtrack, something we've never had available in the West in any release of the game AFAIK (yeah, I know it was buried in the code on the actual cart)

The code for FM was actually removed completely from the US/EU Phantasy Star. The only other game to do so was Ys.

Huh. You learn something new every day.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I've read some complaints recently of games like the first Mother (or rather the English prototype, Earthbound for NES) game having too much grinding and too high of an encounter rate. Given that the game gives you an item to avoid weak encounters, you have literally multiple characters that can get instant kill attacks, tons of resources at your disposal, a movement ability that can be used to traverse spaces without encounters... it's all very laughable to me to see people complain about the encounter rate in a game that gives you so many tools. They're wimps; compared to some games I've played, the grinding there is nothing. And that's not counting stupid challenge run stuff like beating Final Fantasy 1 barehanded (was actually not that bad, barehanded Fighters can hit surprisingly hard).

What are some of the worst RPGs for grinding/encounter rate? I'm curious about people's opinions here. The worst I've played is one called "Warrior Dragon". It looks like a cute little RPG take on Dragon Warrior where you're a dragon out to fight an evil knight that's been harassing your people... but it strips all of the adventure and depth of Dragon Quest/Warrior to the bone and is just a painful slog of grinding. There's no real quests, no spells (!), no really interesting items to use. It's quite barebones, and that's saying something considering Dragon Warrior is already somewhat limited in scope, at least in terms of combat mechanics. The worst part is the beginning of the game is poorly balanced. Pick the wrong item at the beginning (Dagger's the smart pick) and the enemies around the starting town will eat you alive. Dragon Warrior at least is nice enough to give you freedom in terms of picking a Bamboo Pole + Armor or a Club, with a few viable equipment choices at the start...