Jarpig pride worldwide (Let's talk about JRPGs)

[Sima Tuna]

I haven't enjoyed a mainline final fantasy game since 12. If we remove 12 from the equation (which had plenty of flaws but was kinda fun,) then the last mainline FF I enjoyed was probably 9. The Nomura ones aren't for me at all.

[Sumez]

I haven't enjoyed a mainline final fantasy game since 12.

No one has

[XoPachi]

I didnt even like 12.
I played Zodiac Age and it was just boring to me.

It's strange. I like the spinoffs, but Final Fantasy proper doesnt do it for me. My favorite game in that series is probably just the remake of 7. Not even 7 itself because ooohhh my Christ, I hate PS1 RPG's. But the remake is over before it gets started. And it still does a lot of that tedious "cinematic" shit. The fighting and bossing were fun as Hell though.

Also Luminous just got axed by Square. Forspoken tanked them.

[Blinge]

I haven't enjoyed a mainline final fantasy game since 12.

No one has

Me and Bananamatic enjoyed 13

I platted it.. and even replayed it a couple years later.

[BryanM]

FF is the poster child for that rant in Full Dive about people being lemmings just buying things out of habbit long after they stop being good. "I better cough up the dough 'cause I already have the first 20 games..." Final Fantasy ain't Final Fantasy anymore. 14 is probably the only one worth trying, and look how much it costs. Zeroty dollars.

I knew if I waited long enough I would break them. They always break.

The sad thing is there are still a few people there who actually like games. And they get zero budget for it and still have to fight like hell to be allowed to create a project.. Triangle Strategy is at the high end, if you look at Dungeon Encounters it's very hard to believe it was made by a zillionaire AAA company. They really had to fight and bleed to be allowed to make Octopath Traveler, and after it was successful as a launch Switch game, look what they've done with the franchise...

There's the art department, the mobile trash department, and the gamer closet over at Squaresoft. If you think the graphics games are bad, they pale in poopiness to their trash division. It isn't even that they're minimum effort or not real games - it's that even they think of their trash as trash. Who in their right mind would start playing a live service game of a company with a reputation of low quality and shutting them down in under a year? (Hey look! A Secret of Mana game that isn't a Secret of Mana game. Definitely just what Secret of Mana fans have been clamoring for!)

I refuse to believe a game nerd over there thought a King's Knight mobile game was something anyone wanted or needed. For the same budget they could have made a retro, real Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy clone on the platform instead. It's an obvious gaping hole in the market begging to be filled. A massive waste of everyone's resources.

Did you catch the news they sold off Tomb Raider to fund going into NFT's?

[XoPachi]

FF is the poster child for that rant in Full Dive about people being lemmings just buying things out of habbit long after they stop being good.

Link? That sounds like an interesting read or watch.

[BryanM]

Link? That sounds like an interesting read or watch.

Ah, here's a clip of that full exchange, where she scams him into buying and playing a kusoge. I don't like everything about the show, but there are a few moments and ideas in it I really do love that you generally can't get from the safe, in-the-box fare most for-profit media sits inside. (Or the real world either: Such as the idea of a game that melts your game console if you die.) The writer's the same guy who does Cautious Hero.

[Steamflogger Boss]

FF is the poster child for that rant in Full Dive about people being lemmings just buying things out of habbit long after they stop being good. "I better cough up the dough 'cause I already have the first 20 games..." Final Fantasy ain't Final Fantasy anymore. 14 is probably the only one worth trying, and look how much it costs. Zeroty dollars.

I knew if I waited long enough I would break them. They always break.

The sad thing is there are still a few people there who actually like games. And they get zero budget for it and still have to fight like hell to be allowed to create a project.. Triangle Strategy is at the high end, if you look at Dungeon Encounters it's very hard to believe it was made by a zillionaire AAA company. They really had to fight and bleed to be allowed to make Octopath Traveler, and after it was successful as a launch Switch game, look what they've done with the franchise...

There's the art department, the mobile trash department, and the gamer closet over at Squaresoft. If you think the graphics games are bad, they pale in poopiness to their trash division. It isn't even that they're minimum effort or not real games - it's that even they think of their trash as trash. Who in their right mind would start playing a live service game of a company with a reputation of low quality and shutting them down in under a year? (Hey look! A Secret of Mana game that isn't a Secret of Mana game. Definitely just what Secret of Mana fans have been clamoring for!)

I refuse to believe a game nerd over there thought a King's Knight mobile game was something anyone wanted or needed. For the same budget they could have made a retro, real Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy clone on the platform instead. It's an obvious gaping hole in the market begging to be filled. A massive waste of everyone's resources.

Did you catch the news they sold off Tomb Raider to fund going into NFT's?

At least we got Octopath 2 eventually. It looks good as well though I haven't got it yet. I'm cheap.

Which FF would you consider to be the last one to really be FF? Excluding MMOs. 12? 10 for sure is love or hate it the game is undoubtedly extremely Final Fantasy.

The bolded bit is so depressing. I'm mostly a dinosaur that modern gaming has passed by I guess. The good news is I've got a helluva lot of old games to play. More than I'll need, I imagine.

Link? That sounds like an interesting read or watch.

Ah, here's a clip of that full exchange, where she scams him into buying and playing a kusoge. I don't like everything about the show, but there are a few moments and ideas in it I really do love that you generally can't get from the safe, in-the-box fare most for-profit media sits inside. (Or the real world either: Such as the idea of a game that melts your game console if you die.) The writer's the same guy who does Cautious Hero.

Rofl

[BryanM]

7 was the last one for me that I paid money to play (borrowing the next few from friends), but yeah the demo of 12 was when I checked out completely. When Four Heroes of Light was announced I was surprised, "they're making new Final Fantasy games again??"

While on the topic of Square, you know how old games can cost a bazillion dollars to buy? And the companies could undercut that market by just... reprinting them and selling them for like 40 bux? It turns out Square actually did do that years ago. Their online shop was stocked with copies of new Final Fantasy 7 and Parasite Eve discs. With the green "greatest hits" mark of shame. I heard they were green on the reflective side instead of black. Pretty sure they're gone from the storefront now, but if you scroll and scrounge well enough, you could see that you can buy a fresh copy of FF10 from'em. Go to "All games" filter to PSX2 and chuckle that FF10-2 is 5 bux cheaper than FF10. The prices are insanely reasonable.

Anyway, as nice as the Dragon Quest 3 remake looks, I'd be more interested if it were just a new Dragon Quest 3-inspired game instead. It's okay to throw a new coat of paint on an old game that goes a little deeper than skin deep.

With regards to mobile, Genshin Impact really did not have to go as hard as it did considering it had zero competition. There should be like a hundred other real games there, across as many genres, but it's like I said.. guys like Square would rather go bankrupt and die than make a good game there.

[Steamflogger Boss]

Those really late pressings are just clear on the underside. Stopped using the black dye on it. I've ran into some of these over the years. The PS1 stuff from their store I think is finally all gone now. There were a couple stragglers until as recently as a couple years ago for sure.

They also did a bunch of DS reprints, but all those games are expensive again. Also, they would run these on sale. They didn't really set limits either. I once bought 5 copies of Chrono Trigger DS. For $5 each. I bought some PSP games in that order.

I'd love a new, old school DQ game too. But ya know, press x to doubt and whatnot.

[BryanM]

Neat, I just heard about that this year. (That youtube video is probably why they're sold out!)

As with everything, if they won't do it we have to do it ourselves. When GameCenter CX/Retro Game Challenge came out, I had a lot of fun with Guadia Quest, as simple and rushed as it was. Turns out the Zeboyd Games people had my same idea inspired by Guadia Quest, too. They lack my laziness and inability to finish anything, so they made a living off it.

Still, I learned a lot from the random town/dungeon walkin' around generator I made. The fundamental problem most of them have, I think, is most times when people create one, they intend for it to reduce the amount of work they have to do. But they actually require you to make more content to prevent getting stale, not less. The second major problem is using smaller nodes, you can't really put much substance into a little room.

Rooms that exist just to hold monsters and treasure chests are just hallways. And hallways are rooms that exist solely to provide access and privacy to the important rooms where stuff happens. Mistakes and necessary compromises in architecture. It takes a lot of effort to hide the fact something's a hallway; like how Disneyland will take a rollercoaster and gussy it up with plastic, animatronics, and lore.

[Sumez]

Which FF would you consider to be the last one to really be FF? Excluding MMOs. 12? 10 for sure is love or hate it the game is undoubtedly extremely Final Fantasy.

9 without absolutely any doubt. FF8 was already a step in the wrong direction, but 9 brought back a lot of classic sensibilities, even if it was mostly as a "throwback" kinda thing.
FF10 I actually ended up liking eventually, but I definitely stuggle to see it as "extremely Final Fantasy" at all. Maybe if you impression of the FF series is based on FF10 and Nomura style designs in the first place?

[Sima Tuna]

Which FF would you consider to be the last one to really be FF? Excluding MMOs. 12? 10 for sure is love or hate it the game is undoubtedly extremely Final Fantasy.

9 without absolutely any doubt. FF8 was already a step in the wrong direction, but 9 brought back a lot of classic sensibilities, even if it was mostly as a "throwback" kinda thing.
FF10 I actually ended up liking eventually, but I definitely stuggle to see it as "extremely Final Fantasy" at all. Maybe if you impression of the FF series is based on FF10 and Nomura style designs in the first place?

Yeah, 9. FF9 had all of the elements, even if it was a deliberate throwback as you say. More of a "greatest hits FF" than doing its own thing.

FF12 I enjoyed, as I said, but it's a mix of many ideas and not all of them are done well. The story and characters are frustrating as well for numerous reasons. I could rank for an hour just about Vaan. I posted a whole screed about the various "main characters" and how unsatisfying each is, but I won't bother. The ps4/switch remake's fast forward feature is also very necessary to make gameplay tolerable. Otherwise, you end up spending literal hours watching the auto-battler sloooowly level up your dudes. Just so you can make a little bit of story progress on the next boss or finish the next hunt.

From my perspective, the best FF for gameplay is probably FF5. Small wonder it's also a subject of so many challenge runs. Its gameplay design has endured to this day for a reason and FFT lifting its character customization almost wholesale was only a boon to that game. FF4 and FF6 are both excellent story-driven experiences. FF1 is rather primitive, from my perspective, but enjoyable enough. And FF2 imo is a real diamond in the rough for any fan of Kawazu SaGa games. My favorite FFs are probably FF5, FF6 and FF2. FF2 might be my overall favorite of the older games, even though it's not really FF and more of a Saga Zero. It has a surprisingly deep story for such an old game. I also feel it was a rather groundbreaking jrpg in terms of its world design, traversal and npc interaction systems. It uses the same kind of keyword setup as titles like Morrowind.

I do recommend playing one of the later remakes of FF2, however, as the OG version is apparently full of droppa mah spaghet code which doesn't work half the time.

[Steamflogger Boss]

Which FF would you consider to be the last one to really be FF? Excluding MMOs. 12? 10 for sure is love or hate it the game is undoubtedly extremely Final Fantasy.

9 without absolutely any doubt. FF8 was already a step in the wrong direction, but 9 brought back a lot of classic sensibilities, even if it was mostly as a "throwback" kinda thing.
FF10 I actually ended up liking eventually, but I definitely stuggle to see it as "extremely Final Fantasy" at all. Maybe if you impression of the FF series is based on FF10 and Nomura style designs in the first place?

Turn based menu combat. Story driven. The derpy mini-games are a Square staple in general. Even Chrono Trigger (which I love) is full of that random Square bullshit.

My first FF exposure was FF4 which is definitely much more of an old school rpg but I still think FFX feels like FF. I know that's kind of a nebulous thing.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I can sympathize with folks who feel FFX feels like a departure from the series. It's the first that's fully voiced, and the narrative feels like it's very focused on Tidus to the extent that the other characters don't get much time to shine, even compared to previous entries. The main thing that makes it feel quite different for me is the lack of a world map. It means your journey is a relatively linear "point A to point B" type of progression, aside from the occasional minor side path you can take, or backtracking. There's no opportunities to sequence break or explore places you're simply not intended to until much later, and by the time you get the airship and the game's version of a world map you've already explored everything aside from one or two minor sidequest type places.

In previous games, about halfway or 3/4 into the game your travel options would expand considerably, and you'd be free to just roam the landscape, exploring as you please.

It's a fine game but it is admittedly quite different in terms of feel from its predecessors in a variety of ways. Mostly good.

[Steamflogger Boss]

All very fair points. Exploration mostly feels dead in JRPGs these days. Even DQ11, a game I enjoyed, was gated in ways that previous entries were not.

There are always exceptions. I power leveled at one point in Octopath by going to an area super early and exploiting the combat system. Felt great.

[Blinge]

FF8 I need to revisit

FF9 seemed so good but I feel like they were out of ideas at this point..
Limburgh or whatever it was called could've been this huge awesome city but nope. mostly undeveloped.
The only interesting places are in the main continent and the rest of the world is pretty much just empty and ruins.
bit of a let down after disc 1 or whatever.

10 has some magic about it for me. yuze can suck me dingdong if you dun like it

[Steamflogger Boss]

Hot take alert

Imageepoch is underrated.

Oh and Blinge I think we all mostly like FFX. It's just a discussion regarding how much it *feels* like FF or not.

[BryanM]

To this day Lulu's still an enigma. What was she, beyond an obligatory object for marketing? The canon heroine's babysitter?

Wait what's that, a "canon" heroine? In a videogame?

It's all very silly and nonsensical. They went from the Golden Saucer to this.

[Steamflogger Boss]

To this day Lulu's still an enigma. What was she, beyond an obligatory object for marketing? The canon heroine's babysitter?

Wait what's that, a "canon" heroine? In a videogame?

It's all very silly and nonsensical. They went from the Golden Saucer to this.

Milf tbh

[BryanM]

I've been told by nerds that she marries blitz ball bro.

Blitz ball bro just blends into "hotdog" guy. The concept offends and confuses me.

On rare occasion you'll hear me compliment ArKnights for putting some effort into its world building. Objects and clothes will look like the sort of things real people would want or need. Weapons look like they were pressed in a foundry and then assembled in a factory. Individuals have limited power on their own, so they join organizations to acquire money and food. These organizations have structural conflicts and alliances, both the kill-kill-videogame kind, but also political.

I get that FF characters are just dudes that exist as game pieces. But if they're going to derail the dungeon crawling and boss smashin' with story time, they can kind of put a little effort into their characters! Barret having a daughter does so much to ground him as a person that actually exists in his world, and why he cares about it so damn much. A ton of these other guys just seem like lost hobos with nowhere better to go and nothing better to do.

Unlike art, writing is free! You just slap your hands against a keyboard and words come out. <-- just look at all this shit --> There's no excuse >: (

[Blinge]

what i love about FFX, XIII is that a lot of the non descript, low-poly NPCs look and dress like absolute twats.
just the citizens of spira and whatnot

also: gentle reminder that ffX is over 20 years old

[BulletMagnet]

9 brought back a lot of classic sensibilities

The primary "classic sensibility" I'll always remember FF9 embodying is the "we'll make some of this stuff so inscrutable that you'll be forced to buy the guide" design approach - moreover, beyond even that, if you did buy the guide book, half of the parts where the reveals should have been were "Want to know how this works? Sign up for Square's new PlayOnline service!" ad blurbs.

I know a lot of folks name 9 as one of their series favorites, but personally it really left a bad taste in my mouth, to the point that I never bothered finishing it; in my view it's the first time the Square we know today, that kills multiple "live service" games within a year of launch and sells legacy IPs for a song in order to double down on NFTs, showed its true colors to the world.

[Steamflogger Boss]

I get that FF characters are just dudes that exist as game pieces. But if they're going to derail the dungeon crawling and boss smashin' with story time, they can kind of put a little effort into their characters! Barret having a daughter does so much to ground him as a person that actually exists in his world, and why he cares about it so damn much. A ton of these other guys just seem like lost hobos with nowhere better to go and nothing better to do.

Unlike art, writing is free! You just slap your hands against a keyboard and words come out. <-- just look at all this shit --> There's no excuse >: (

FF doesn't do world building as well as some other franchises (Trails for one) but I wouldn't say they don't try at all. I've never really felt that way playing an FF game. Now SMT, there is some good murder hobo action typically.

also: gentle reminder that ffX is over 20 years old

Wow what is this personal attack for.

The primary "classic sensibility" I'll always remember FF9 embodying is the "we'll make some of this stuff so inscrutable that you'll be forced to buy the guide" design approach - moreover, beyond even that, if you did buy the guide book, half of the parts where the reveals should have been were "Want to know how this works? Sign up for Square's new PlayOnline service!" ad blurbs.

I know a lot of folks name 9 as one of their series favorites, but personally it really left a bad taste in my mouth, to the point that I never bothered finishing it; in my view it's the first time the Square we know today, that kills multiple "live service" games within a year of launch and sells legacy IPs for a song in order to double down on NFTs, showed its true colors to the world.

I think you can pretty easily beat the game without a guide. Guess it depends what your goals are. Probably pretty hard to 100% without one. I wouldn't say it's my favorite but it's in my top 5 FF games for sure.

[BulletMagnet]

I think you can pretty easily beat the game without a guide.

I'm sure it's beatable, and the advent of online FAQs and the like kneecapped Square's scheme in the end, but when the game, for instance, deliberately never explains how its own card game works and includes ability descriptions that read "figure it out for yourself" in order to push players to spend additional dollars on both a nigh-useless physical guide and an online subscription service I still can't get down with it, especially considering what it ended up portending down the road. Obviously not everyone is/was as put off as me, and I certainly wouldn't demand that they feel the same way I do, but personally I don't think I can ever go back to it.

[Steamflogger Boss]

I think you can pretty easily beat the game without a guide.

I'm sure it's beatable, and the advent of online FAQs and the like kneecapped Square's scheme in the end, but when the game, for instance, deliberately never explains how its own card game works and includes ability descriptions that read "figure it out for yourself" in order to push players to spend additional dollars on both a nigh-useless physical guide and an online subscription service I still can't get down with it, especially considering what it ended up portending down the road. Obviously not everyone is/was as put off as me, and I certainly wouldn't demand that they feel the same way I do, but personally I don't think I can ever go back to it.

Ah yeah, the card game. I understand your viewpoint on it.

[Sumez]

Turn based menu combat. Story driven. The derpy mini-games are a Square staple in general. Even Chrono Trigger (which I love) is full of that random Square bullshit.

If turn based combat is all it takes, sure. I thought the combat in FF10 was generally quite well done. It's just that everything else is thrown out the window. Foregoing the overworld map especially massively changes how a game like this is experienced, but also the tone and style of the world I'd say is intrical to the feel of an ongoing franchise. It's not like FF8 and 10 weren't "allowed to" depart from that, it's cool when a series tries to reinvent itself, but to me that definitely made it feel like, well yeah, a departure.

All very fair points. Exploration mostly feels dead in JRPGs these days. Even DQ11, a game I enjoyed, was gated in ways that previous entries were not.

I do wish DQ11 had opened up a lot more once you got the boat, but it's been a tendency of the series since DQ4 really, with 3 being the last really open-ended entry in the series. It's kinda regrettable, because the way the first three games handled the open world approach to RPG gameplay was really, really well implemented, and I think doing that for a new sequel would still feel fresh today, or maybe even moreso. I'll always keep my fingers crossed for that. As long as we're not getting a Skyrim-style "just walk in any direction" field.

The primary "classic sensibility" I'll always remember FF9 embodying is the "we'll make some of this stuff so inscrutable that you'll be forced to buy the guide" design approach - moreover, beyond even that, if you did buy the guide book, half of the parts where the reveals should have been were "Want to know how this works? Sign up for Square's new PlayOnline service!" ad blurbs.

What? I never used any kind of guides or stuff for FF9 when it came out, and managed just fine. It's an extremely linear and gated experience that holds your hand the entire way, so I'm confused about where you got your impression from.
I do think the game is overrated though - my take on it is very similar to what Blinge typed out earlier. But when it came out it was a heartwarming return to what used to make me care about the FF series (and pretty much the last embers remaining of that fire), so I'll always appreciate it dearly for trying.

[Blinge]

shmups fans complaining about linearity

[BryanM]

Nonlinear shmups are my faves! Unfortunately most of them are mixed stage order, mixed route Umihara Kawase style at best.

[Sumez]

shmups fans complaining about linearity

so many jarpigs don't even have 8-way movement, what gives
they need to get rid of their RPG elements too, they are basically euroshmups