Jarpig pride worldwide (Let's talk about JRPGs)

[Steamflogger Boss]

I get it but it definitely didn't ruin the game for me. It's rushed and lacks much in the way of gameplay. For me the gameplay in Xenogears was kinda janky anyway so that is probably part of why I don't mind as much.

Valkyria is almost closer to a puzzle game than a strategy game. There is bullshit that you have to figure out how to deal with but the mission is the same every time so once you know, you know. If anyone wanted to use a guide to just take in the story, that would make for a very brisk experience.

[XoPachi]

Realizing that I just don't like PS2 RPG's.

As a kid, they were the first ones I tried and ended up not caring for which made me avoid a large majority of the genre on other platforms for years. I stuck to my Battle Networks, Pokemon (when it was good), SNES classics, and some others. As an adult, I like a lot of the new releases. I thought I just grew into an appreciation for the genre. Which I have! So, recently, I went back to try a lot of those PS2 titles I didn't like.

I actually have even less patience for them now. From the popular picks to the obscurities, not one of these games clicks for me. Odin Sphere *almost* did until they made me play as the fairy who is waaay less fun than the first two characters.
Dark Cloud, Kingdom Hearts 1, and Samurai Musashi in particular were really really especially shocking. I'm...never playing those again.

[Steamflogger Boss]

Imo there are some good ones on PS2 still. PS360 is almost a chasm save for a few real gems like Lost Odyssey and Cold Steel. I did not start gaming on PS2 but I think the top end of rpgs there is pretty good.

I would consider the 3 you listed at the end to be either bad or grossly overrated. I enjoyed things like Growlanser 2/3, Digital Devil Saga, Devil Summoner, Mana Khemia, Dragon Quest 8, Disgaea, Tales of the Abyss. If I listed a game here I generally liked the sequel too. Could have kept going but that's a pretty strong group that holds up for me. Actually almost everything on that list I've played through more than once (including sequels for DDS, MK). What others have you tried?

[BulletMagnet]

Allow me to add the Shadow Hearts trilogy (particularly the latter two) to your list.

[XoPachi]

Imo there are some good ones on PS2 still. PS360 is almost a chasm save for a few real gems like Lost Odyssey and Cold Steel. I did not start gaming on PS2 but I think the top end of rpgs there is pretty good.

I would consider the 3 you listed at the end to be either bad or grossly overrated. I enjoyed things like Growlanser 2/3, Digital Devil Saga, Devil Summoner, Mana Khemia, Dragon Quest 8, Disgaea, Tales of the Abyss. If I listed a game here I generally liked the sequel too. Could have kept going but that's a pretty strong group that holds up for me. Actually almost everything on that list I've played through more than once (including sequels for DDS, MK). What others have you tried?

Of those I've tried DQ8, Disgaea, Tales, and Magnet's recommendation of Shadow Hearts (1 and 2). None did anything for me. But the Tales games are their own can of worms. I played a number of Tales games older and newer and really just can't stand any of them after 3 or 4 hours. They do a lot that really just infuriates me.
I gave FFX and FFXII a chance. I put more time into 12 but the sheer amount of walking and how slow everything takes put me off. And I really didn't feel involved in anything I was doing?

Out of all the PS2 RPG's, DQ8 and PSU are the ones I tolerated the most when I played them years ago. But I can't go back to them after playing DQ11 and PSO2 (vanilla) so much.
Annnnd Star Ocean. Just...no.

EDIT: I also played one of the .hack games.

[BulletMagnet]

I put more time into 12 but the sheer amount of walking and how slow everything takes put me off.

If you ever feel like giving 12 another go you might want to try the "Zodiac Age" remaster, it adds a fast-forward button and other QOL improvements. I am kind of curious what you mean when you say you "didn't feel involved" when playing it; I'm not criticizing, I would be interested in a more detailed explanation, if you can more explicitly put the feeling into words.

[Steamflogger Boss]

Yeah I've got nothing. I'd have all those up there with the great SNES and PS1 JRPGs for me but of course everyone experiences things differently. At the end of the day playing games is about what you want to get out of them.

Tales is definitely a very mixed bag series for me. Abyss did a lot right for me overall though. I *think* it's top 3 Tales for me. Haven't really liked the new entries at all though.

@BM: Yeah I never did get into the Shadow Hearts games, but objectively they look fine to me.

[BulletMagnet]

@BM: Yeah I never did get into the Shadow Hearts games, but objectively they look fine to me.

Heh, they're definitely odd ducks in a lot of ways and not for everyone, but I do like to recommend that anyone not completely soured on JRPGs at least give them a try and see if they fit the proverbial bill, as they're personal favorites of mine.

[XoPachi]

If you ever feel like giving 12 another go you might want to try the "Zodiac Age" remaster, it adds a fast-forward button and other QOL improvements. I am kind of curious what you mean when you say you "didn't feel involved" when playing it; I'm not criticizing, I would be interested in a more detailed explanation, if you can more explicitly put the feeling into words.

Zodiac Age was what I was playing on my Switch. I just lumped it in with the others since it debuted on the PS2. I should have specified.
The fast forward features are nice, but there came a point where I felt like if I had to do that, the game is inherently flawed in it's general world design. It sped things up but didn't make things more interesting if that makes sense. The fast forward itself got tedious and eventually I still felt a sense of a slog.
As for feeling uninvolved, I understand that FF was traditionally menu based, but I felt like in FF12 more than any others I was watching characters do things more than influencing them myself. Gambits and the like are in depth and neat, but there was this consistent feeling of automation I was not enjoying.
What I think it stems from is that I could freely move my characters around but then the game is still effectively turn based because movement didn't effect that much. It's this weird disconnect for me that makes me feel like less is actually going on. That's not really a flaw on the game's end, but a weird...mental thing for me.

I don't think I dislike the game enough to *never* resume it in the future, but I definitely got burnt out very quickly. I got a decent chunk of the way through. My party was level 37-40.

[Ed Oscuro]

Dark Cloud

Ever give .hack a try? Its dungeons do feel a lot like Dark Cloud, perhaps a touch less bad, but still very long and lotsa corridors. I think //GU fixed up some of these problems and the recent remaster is very nice. But I admit that I share your feelings; I tried to get through Dark Cloud out of a sense of obligation to approach the apparently better sequel, but the slow pace kills me.

[Sengoku Strider]

I've seen Dynasty Tactics listed as an rpg, though really it was more like the board game to finally dethrone chess if only it didn't have that broken taunt technique. Still a top 5 memory on the system though.

Otherwise, FF XII might have been the high point of PS2 jrpgs for me. I really got into that game and that world (benched Vaan ASAP). FFX had a great turn-based battle system, but to this day was one of the dumbest plots I've ever played. You defeat an evil flying whale who's also your dad with the power of water polo.

I liked Suikoden III for its charm and characters, but acknowledge its shortcomings. V was overall better, but it was kinda stuck in that 'stretching a mid-level budget over a whole lot of game' area. Never played IV because at the time I just couldn't handle the main character's goofy Flowbee™ haircut. Nocturne was punishing but good.

Other than that? Having a hard time remembering any jrpgs I really got into on that thing. Persona 3/4 will always be Vita memories for me. I've mentioned before how DQ VII had left me traumatized and numb by the end of it, so VIII was out. I don't care about Disney so Kingdom Hearts didn't register.

I was beyond hyped for Xenosaga, pre-ordered, came home with it day one...and lasted about 3-4 hours before I couldn't take that battle system anymore. People complain about padding with fetch quests & stuff, this game padded itself by making every second attack do tickle-damage. I put up with it in Xenogears, but had enough of it there.

I bet I would have liked Growlanser a lot, but it flew right under my radar. Same with the SaGa games, that's a series that seems to go over a lot of reviewers' heads, so I never gave it the time of day until recently (did absolutely love Final Fantasy Legend for its weirdness, but had no idea that was a SaGa game). In hindsight kinda bitter about it TBH.

PS360 is almost a chasm save for a few real gems like Lost Odyssey and Cold Steel.

That was the "Japan can't make HD games!" gen. The reality was Nintendo just owned the country with the Wii & especially the DS, so all the rpg developers went there instead. Bigger audience, lower dev budgets. The DS got a ridiculous library by the end of it. The PSP didn't make out so badly either.

The red ring of death alienated me from MS, so I was PS3 only. I absolutely adored Valkyria Chronicles - if you thought it was easy, check out the DLC. Especially the second one, I never did beat it, and not for lack of trying. But other than that? You said it. It was the jrpg chasm. I probably would have liked Nier, but I thought Drakengard was related to Drakkhen (because why wouldn't you??) and so wasn't interested.

[Sima Tuna]

Valkyria is almost closer to a puzzle game than a strategy game. There is bullshit that you have to figure out how to deal with but the mission is the same every time so once you know, you know. If anyone wanted to use a guide to just take in the story, that would make for a very brisk experience.

Yeah, I just wish the game rewarded smart tactical play more and rote memorization less. Valkyria Chronicles is very much a memo game, sort of like an Irem shmup. Complete with noob traps and the strategy game equivalent of backwards-firing ambush spawns.

It also always pisses me off how you can't station snipers in sniper nests, because of the way enemy line of sight aggression works. If an enemy tank can see a unit they can OHKO, they will fire at it 3-4 times in a single turn. Even though it makes zero fucking sense for a main battle tank to use its high-explosive, armor-piercing rounds to shoot at a single guy with a scoped rifle. But no. If you place a sniper where enemy armor can see it, they will use the entire enemy phase if they need to, but they will fire across the map with their tank rounds until they get a bull's eye and kill your sniper. So you have to do this lame dance where you send the sniper up, fire, then send them back down out of the sniper nest.

Don't get me wrong, being counter-sniped by other snipers would make perfect sense and be totally fair. But being counter-sniped by fucking tanks is stupid. The tanks should be trying to push the enemy front forward. It doesn't even really hurt me much to lose a sniper, since recovering them is easy (they're always well behind my own line.) The game is just being a dick for the sake of being a dick.

On the subject of ps2 rpgs, Growlanser is definitely worth playing for anyone who missed it. There were also games/ports for the PSP which can be emulated easily. I would say their tone is not entirely dissimilar to the great OG Suikoden games. Stakes are high, strategy is important and characters can die.

[BryanM]

Drakengard

Drag-on Dragoon???? It's like a slightly exaggerated version of our doomy universe. Everyone's some kind of bastard, and there's fifty apocalypses waiting for you to trip over'em. The wonderful world of high-concept Kusoge.

My favorite Yoko story is that time he designed a summer character for SINoALICE, and it didn't make enough money, so he designed another, more sexier kind of summer character and that somehow managed to make even less money. SMH, world's just not fair, is it Taro???

The year is 2021 and Saito-P is the new overlord of Square Enix. This is not good for Yoko Taro and the gang, however, Saito-P will grant one wish that is to make any collaboration happen. While you’d still be stuck under his oppression, what collaboration would you pick if given any choice to bring some light to the world?

Yoko Taro: “I’d choose a Disney collaboration. I’ll pour in all of the violence and sexually explicit content I could muster. Saito-P will go down with me.”

I love this man so much, and I've never played a single game he's worked on.

[Ed Oscuro]

Don't get me wrong, being counter-sniped by other snipers would make perfect sense and be totally fair. But being counter-sniped by fucking tanks is stupid.

Ah, the BMP in 2022: "Finally, my moment has come. I will put down a withering fire on infantry from a long distance." Reality was less than fair for our friend IFV-kun!

[Sima Tuna]

Oh my god, I just finished mission 14 in valkyria chronicles and the shit was absolutely infuriating. I don't even know how to describe it. Wave after wave of enemies who spawn every single turn on enemy phase, many of which have instant-kill weapons (rocket launchers and sniper rifles) while the camp you have to defend gets shelled by incendiary rounds (leaving behind balls of fire that instantly kill any infantry who come into contact with them).

But the worst thing about it is the enemy gets an insanely high number of actions per turn in this specific map, and they exhaust all of them, every phase. There's no way to speed up enemy run or fire animations either. So most of the time I spent "playing" this mission was watching enemies walk around or snipe at my same infantry unit across the map 40 times until they finally hit and killed them. I almost quit playing. Not because of the difficulty or unfairness, but because I was so tired of watching the "enemy phase" movie.

Another mission which is completely unfair on a first play but would be trivial if playing it with foreknowledge, because all you have to do is position rockets behind where the big tanks are scripted to spawn in. Then pop them in the butt twice and you win. But try to do anything else and it's pure pain.

[Sumez]

Complaints about the 2nd Xenogears disc are overblown.

Complaints?
It's less about opinions and more about facts. Xenogears just abruptly stops letting the player play a game, and replaces dungeons, battles, events and cutscenes with a character sitting in a chair telling the player of all the crazy things that happen.
I kinda love Xenogears, but it's clearly blatantly unfinished

[Steamflogger Boss]

I was beyond hyped for Xenosaga, pre-ordered, came home with it day one...and lasted about 3-4 hours before I couldn't take that battle system anymore. People complain about padding with fetch quests & stuff, this game padded itself by making every second attack do tickle-damage. I put up with it in Xenogears, but had enough of it there.

PS360 is almost a chasm save for a few real gems like Lost Odyssey and Cold Steel.

That was the "Japan can't make HD games!" gen. The reality was Nintendo just owned the country with the Wii & especially the DS, so all the rpg developers went there instead. Bigger audience, lower dev budgets. The DS got a ridiculous library by the end of it. The PSP didn't make out so badly either.

The red ring of death alienated me from MS, so I was PS3 only. I absolutely adored Valkyria Chronicles - if you thought it was easy, check out the DLC. Especially the second one, I never did beat it, and not for lack of trying. But other than that? You said it. It was the jrpg chasm. I probably would have liked Nier, but I thought Drakengard was related to Drakkhen (because why wouldn't you??) and so wasn't interested.

Yeah I cheated in Xenosaga. Idgaf.

Good point about the DS, it rules. Interested to hear everyones favorites there.

Yeah, I just wish the game rewarded smart tactical play more and rote memorization less. Valkyria Chronicles is very much a memo game, sort of like an Irem shmup. Complete with noob traps and the strategy game equivalent of backwards-firing ambush spawns.

On the subject of ps2 rpgs, Growlanser is definitely worth playing for anyone who missed it. There were also games/ports for the PSP which can be emulated easily. I would say their tone is not entirely dissimilar to the great OG Suikoden games. Stakes are high, strategy is important and characters can die.

Ya glad I'm not the only one that sees it this way.

I should try Heritage of War again one of these days. I think I was in the middle of a burn out period when I tried it originally.

@Sumez Sir this is an Arbys.

Spoiler

Don't disagree, it's clearly unfinished. I just don't think it's a big deal.

[BulletMagnet]

As for feeling uninvolved, I understand that FF was traditionally menu based, but I felt like in FF12 more than any others I was watching characters do things more than influencing them myself. Gambits and the like are in depth and neat, but there was this consistent feeling of automation I was not enjoying.

I can understand that, though I always interpreted that decision as a response to the frequent (and not unwarranted) criticism that JRPGS waste a lot of players' time by making them manually select "fight" a million times in even the least consequential skirmishes; in 12 you can speed "regular" battles along considerably by preparing in advance, and moreover can experiment and tweak your Gambits as you go to keep even trash fights more interesting, while still needing to get more hands-on once a boss comes along. I can see how some folks might be even more tempted to zone out under such circumstances than traditional "manual" battle systems, though.

What I think it stems from is that I could freely move my characters around but then the game is still effectively turn based because movement didn't effect that much. It's this weird disconnect for me that makes me feel like less is actually going on.

This part I can actually relate to even more immediately; I can still recall a conversation I had with someone years ago after trying Xenoblade Chronicles (a title on my own "need to go back and have a proper go at it someday" list), in which my biggest beef with the game was how you could move around freely and explicitly needed to take positioning into account...yet enemies could still just perform their attack animation and hit you from a ways off and you couldn't do much of anything about it. I remember stating that if an RPG was going to do that it should probably just stick to the "we stand here, you guys stand there" "pantomime" style, or else go full action a la Ys. I guess by the time I got to Zodiac Age I wasn't quite as uncomfortable with the "middle ground" it occupies, but yeah, I've definitely spent some time in that particular zone, and for quite awhile found it equally awkward.

[XoPachi]

Ever give .hack a try? Its dungeons do feel a lot like Dark Cloud, perhaps a touch less bad, but still very long and lotsa corridors. I think //GU fixed up some of these problems and the recent remaster is very nice. But I admit that I share your feelings; I tried to get through Dark Cloud out of a sense of obligation to approach the apparently better sequel, but the slow pace kills me.

Years ago. But I remember not really caring for it. But it's been like maybe 15 years?

This part I can actually relate to even more immediately; I can still recall a conversation I had with someone years ago after trying Xenoblade Chronicles (a title on my own "need to go back and have a proper go at it someday" list), in which my biggest beef with the game was how you could move around freely and explicitly needed to take positioning into account...yet enemies could still just perform their attack animation and hit you from a ways off and you couldn't do much of anything about it. I remember stating that if an RPG was going to do that it should probably just stick to the "we stand here, you guys stand there" "pantomime" style, or else go full action a la Ys. I guess by the time I got to Zodiac Age I wasn't quite as uncomfortable with the "middle ground" it occupies, but yeah, I've definitely spent some time in that particular zone, and for quite awhile found it equally awkward.

I was specifically considering comparing it to Xenoblade and that I appreciated Xenoblade more because of the positioning factor you mentioned. Especially in Xenoblade X which aside from it's HORRIBLE early game, I liked a lot. But I can't believe 3 games straight and they still haven't figured out that being hit a mile away by a physical attack is stupid as fuck. I don't really get why that's a thing.

[Sengoku Strider]

I just discovered this, Nekketsu Legend Baseballer for PC Engine. In which a young man must avenge his father's defeat at the hands of his rival, who wields the evil power of Dark Baseball. He must roam the land defeating monsters in brief rpg-style baseball games with his otherworldly pitches, in order to grow stronger in the powers of Pure Baseball Spirit and achieve his destiny.

It hit in 1995 after the TurboGrafx was dead in the West, but I'm still legit bummed nobody ever saw the genius in this concept and ported it to Mega CD or something. It's a bit rough & looks like it could definitely use some tightening up in various areas, but I think that armour says more about this game's contributions to human advancement than I ever could.

[Sima Tuna]

Super Cyber Catchers-Mitt Monogatari

[Steamflogger Boss]

Any hot DS recs?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Realizing that I just don't like PS2 RPG's.

This is a strange overgeneralization considering the style of RPGs available on the platform varies wildly and I'd be surprised if you'd even played half of what's on the platform. Even if you're not into turn based games there's several Tales of games on the platforms (the Japanese ones are among the best imo, with Tales of Destiny R still standing as the best battle system in the entire series), and there's also dungeon crawlers such as the two Champions of Norrath games which support 4 player multitap and are quite good as action games.

Maybe you just don't like RPGs or prefer older era ones or something? What RPGs do you normally enjoy?

[drauch]

Any hot DS recs?

Man, I looked at this thread like three times yesterday super tired and was like wtf is DS? Dark Souls? Darkstalkers? Is this an acronym for a sub-genre I can't think of? God I hate myself.

But sorry, no hot Dark Souls recs.

[XoPachi]

Slogged through Mercedes story in Odin Sphere after putting it off for like a year. Working on Velvet now. Honestly after thinking about it, Muramasa is kind of...the weakest of the 3 hack and slash VW games for me.
It was the first one I played but even as a kid I just did Kisuke's story, started Momohime's and just stopped caring after the first few screens with her.

Dragon's Crown is absolutely my favorite from VW followed by Odin Sphere. Muramasa is ok, but I'm finding it to be a distant third for me.
(Can't say the rest of VW's library interests me)

[Steamflogger Boss]

@drauch yeah lol, I'm collecting for the DS again. Already got DQ 4/5/9, Ys 1/2, FF3, Knights in the Nightmare.

[Sima Tuna]

Slogged through Mercedes story in Odin Sphere after putting it off for like a year. Working on Velvet now. Honestly after thinking about it, Muramasa is kind of...the weakest of the 3 hack and slash VW games for me.
It was the first one I played but even as a kid I just did Kisuke's story, started Momohime's and just stopped caring after the first few screens with her.

Dragon's Crown is absolutely my favorite from VW followed by Odin Sphere. Muramasa is ok, but I'm finding it to be a distant third for me.
(Can't say the rest of VW's library interests me)

Muramasa (Rebirth) is probably my favorite of the vanillaware hack-em-ups. Although I do really like Leifthrasir and GrimGrimoire. I think Muramasa gets better the more you play. The best character and story, in my opinion, is the nekomata dlc. All of the dlcs are kind of short, but finishing the main story for any opens up all the open world shit, with bosses from the main game. So you can go around and play with the character as much as you like. The nekomata story has the strongest horror atmosphere, which works in tandem with the visuals and sound design to create an effective, video-gamey equivalent to films like Kuroneko or Onibaba.

Dragon's Crown was my least favorite vanillaware title because it felt the most "grindy." I guess it depends what you look for.

[BryanM]

This is a strange overgeneralization considering the style of RPGs available on the platform varies wildly and I'd be surprised if you'd even played half of what's on the platform.

Maybe you just don't like RPGs or prefer older era ones or something?

In the event one is sick of clones, and the genre was plenty saturated by the basics by the time the Playstation 2 came around: 7 Dragon Quests, a hundred DQ spinoff games, Nine Final Fantasies, Star Ocean 2, Tactics Ogre+FF Tactics, etc... a lot of the PS2 library is just games already done, but with prettier graphics.

In the realm of deviant offerings that are a little bit different, the only thing I'm personally acquainted with is Jade Cocoon 2. Not a super great game, but the mind numbing randomly generated (I feel generous calling them that much) dungeons do leave your mind free to wander. Its kuso energy is rather low, at 8 to 12% at best, but it's a monster collecting game that's not a clone of Pokemon, Dragon Quest Monsters, nor Megami Tensei. .. .. Hell, it's extremely far from a clone of Jade Cocoon 1, how's that for deviancy?

And is apparently very obscure; mentions of the franchise on this forum in its entirety is me, Jon, and then Ed remarking he just learned it was a thing that exists. It's not popular on the youtubes, either, with like five views total before you get Final Fantasy and Chrono Cross videos in the search results. I know it's impossible to be a walking library of RPGs like BIL is with action games, they just take too long to really digest and appreciate, but c'mon! I can't be the only person on the planet to be willing to run down hamster tunnels to level up my shovel rat, snake dragon, and bone devil. Not everything has to be Dragon Ball Quest 5,629.

.... it has art done by Studio Ghibli....

[BulletMagnet]

I think Muramasa gets better the more you play.

I discussed this on here some years back when I played it, but I honestly found the exact opposite; early-game combat was okay, but by the end of the game nine out of every ten hits I took was from either off-screen attacks I couldn't anticipate or huge crowds of bum-rushing enemies who would instantly break your sword if you attempted to guard or poke them more than once or twice before retreating again. If you watch videos of people completing the game's harder challenges the strategy is always the same: spam sword abilities that give a lot of invincibility and keep a huge supply of whetstones to chug and keep the invincibility-fest going. Doing it any other way is, at least in my estimation, borderline impossible, which is too bad, because I really wanted to like the game more than I did.

In the realm of deviant offerings that are a little bit different, the only thing I'm personally acquainted with is Jade Cocoon 2.

I actually have a copy of this, albeit buried Deep in the Backlog. Never played the first one though.

[BryanM]

Never played the first one though.

Me neither, I'm such a hypocrite ;_; I really should.

So many games, so little desire to devote time to rip through them. I think it might take me another year or two... or three before I finish my playthrough of Persona 4. By then, we'll probably be living in a wild and crazy world where they've announced Persona Six, to be released three years from then.