So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
xxx1993

Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by xxx1993 »

Wonder why they suddenly decided to start making sequels to some of their games if they hated sequels back then?
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by Sumez »

Maybe they liked money more than their principles.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by Blinge »

why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Answer: They aren't.
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xxx1993

Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by xxx1993 »

Wonder if one also considers Alien Syndrome to be a shmup?
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by kitten »

Sumez wrote:Maybe they liked money more than their principles.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by BIL »

xxx1993 wrote:Wonder if one also considers Alien Syndrome to be a shmup?
As noted, games of that ilk - topdown push-scrolling run/guns with eight-way movement, let's call them here for convenience's sake - are officially regarded as on-topic.

I very vaguely recall them being off-topic, early in the forum's current incarnation (January 2005 to present). Conversely, stuff like Guwange, Gun.Smoke and Elemental Master - traditional autoscrolling topdown verts ala Xevious, with the stylistic distinction of human, on-foot avatars - were always accepted without question in Shmups Chat. (these games also incorporate terrain, but then so do Image Fight, Dragon Spirit, Gemini Wing and likely many more traditional "flying vehicle" STGs)

Personally, Front Line et al are distinct enough a game type that I'm happiest discussing them in OT. I've no issues whatsoever with them being Considered A Shumps though. (not that it would matter if I did, of course. I don't consider Contra, Star Fox or Ace Combat on-topic, but what am I gonna do if management decides they are, indeed, A Shumps? Back over my Mega CD copy of Star Blade? :lol:)
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by Dawn111 »

Run and gun games aren't considers shmups because they are platformers that give the players the ability to jump and move side to side. Games like Metal Slug 3,
Kirby's Return to Dream Land, and Shantae: Risky's Revenge do feature their shmup level, but they're not frequent enough for the games to be considered shmups.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by Stevens »

I stand by my original statement - If the player scrolls the screen it's a run n' gun. Auto scroll = shmup.

I have softened my stance on In the Hunt though:)
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by BIL »

Dawn111 wrote:Run and gun games aren't considers shmups because they are platformers that give the players the ability to jump and move side to side.
I like to think of run/guns as scrolling action/platformers ala Makaimura (1985), incorporating STG levels of firepower and bodycount. Contra (1987) is the earliest example I've found. Basically, if you're backing around a hog mighty enough to do this:

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Or this:
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You are probably run/gunning in my book!

There's also stuff like Saigo no Nindou (1988), which lifts Gradius's Options, and features Spread/Bomb shot-types that'd do any STG proud, overlaid onto The Legend of Kage: In Hell

Handy! :o
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Ass-saving! :shock:
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DEFENDED THE TREE Image
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ITS LIKE IM BACK IN NAM Image Is this running and gunning?
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NO ITS NOT (■`W´■) Just like Makaimura, you can't run and shoot at the same time. ;3

But despite never autoscrolling, nor featuring Shump Stages, I'd consider it closer to Contra than Super Mario Land. Or Makaimura! Arthur shoots 2 kill, but his hog is puny 3; TBH even Saigo's sword/chain action feels conspicuously STG-esque, prefiguring the bullet-cancelling swords favoured by Milestone.
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However, it's all moot, as I regard all of the above as equally off-topic for Shumps Chat. Image
Stevens wrote:I stand by my original statement - If the player scrolls the screen it's a run n' gun. Auto scroll = shmup.

I have softened my stance on In the Hunt though:)
I'd look the other way on In The Hunt WRT R2RKMF tbh ;3 Not Over Horizon or Phalanx, though, you only scroll the screen in one stage apiece! :O OR Defender/Fantasy Zone, because nobody says they are Not Shumps. Image
Last edited by BIL on Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:51 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by Stevens »

BIL wrote:
I'd look the other way on In The Hunt WRT R2RKMF tbh ;3 Not Over Horizon or Phalanx, though, you only scroll the screen in one stage apiece! :O OR Defender/Fantasy Zone, because nobody says they are Not Shumps. Image
How the fuck did I forget Defender and FZ?
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by BIL »

See also Bosconian :mrgreen: Ain't nobody gon challenge those Shumping Credentials Image A horde of nerds will dogpile 'em before the post hits the server :shock:
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by Dawn111 »

BIL wrote: DEFENDED THE TREE Image
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Ooooo, Ninja Spirit looked so sick! It's like Contra, but in ancient Japan, and it's so fun to play!
The shurikens are like the spread gun, & they are especially powerful when having ninja clones.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by BIL »

Great game ImageImage Besides feeling distinctly Kage+Contra, it also seems to prefigure ex-Irem Nazca's Metal Slug in some regards... like the free enemy contact allowing for wild crowd rucks (it's all good until someone connects with a weapon!), and the massive hitboxes on power weapons giving that "press the button, five guys die" largesse.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by Stevens »

I don't think I'm figuring out a great mystery of the universe, but after years here I'm pretty sure Saigo is Birru's desert island game.

If not that then Ninja Warriors.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by BIL »

Saigo and TNWA (SFC) are on the list of ten, definitely. (no way in hell could I choose just one Image) Both have killer mechanics, nonstop pace and a healthy degree of raging (yet controllable) chaos. Hundreds of hours on both and I'll still get reliably knocked on my ass if not 110% switched on. TNWA is also effectively two games in one. Master Kunoichi and you'll still have precious little idea of how to use Ninja, and vice-versa.

TNWAA (PS4) might be an even stronger game, certainly for time attack, but I slightly prefer the original's 4:3 pressure. This st7-2 monorail fight is one of my favourite things I've ever captured on video. I know if any of those fuckers get loose, it's gonna turn into Cat Herder 9000, so I shut 'em down with nonstop pressure. (`ω´メ) If you're quick and accurate enough, there's little you can't do with regards to crowd manipulation - it's a remarkably visceral, tactile brawler, fuelled by Natsume's absolutely Godlike i-frame sense (a sense that has, commendably, grown even more transcendent with TNWAA, Wild Guns Reloaded, and undoubtedly, their upcoming Kiki Kaikai). Anyone who enjoys whooping ass against the odds should play TNWA and TNWAA post-haste.

Also bangin Hiroyuki Iwatsuki tunes Image

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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by Stevens »

Bought In The Hunt and played it for the first time in a very long time.

Definitely a shmup. Sorry for my previous retarded opinion.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by BIL »

I consider it an STG too, but it is very different from the norm. When I played the ACA one, it'd been like a decade, and I was getting absolutely massacred by the very first stage. Turned out I was subconsciously holding [forward] to keep the screen scrolling unimpeded, straight into near-simultaneous minefields, cryolasers and depth-charges... the designers clearly leveraged the player-dictated scroll to put a lot more in your path than the typical st1.

Of course, just like Contra/Slug, when you git gud you often can attack stages at full ramming speed - bystanders might not even realise ITH pros are push-scrolling, initially, since like all good scrolling aciton it keeps you firmly anchored to screen center.

Them Nazcafied POW Armours in stage 2... Image Jeeze I want ACA Undercover Cops.

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And Geostorm obv. *crack* Image

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xxx1993

Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by xxx1993 »

Ah yes, GunForce 2... Which everyone often considered a prototype Metal Slug, and they're not wrong.
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