Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch List)

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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BIL
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by BIL »

Sumez wrote:Credit fed through Hard mode, and this is gonna sound incredibly scrubby, and if I press on and improve, I'll probably have to eat my words... But TNWA really feels balanced around Normal mode. Like they'd experimented with different enemy constellations and taken out the ones they felt were too bullshitty, but then left those in for the Hard mode. Some enemy spawns are just completely unfair if you don't know exactly what is coming up.

The added difficulty is very frontloaded though, with stage 2-5 especially being notably harder, which in turns gives me the biggest trouble with the last two, as they are already challenging on Normal. Jubei is absurd on hard mode, just as I'd finally got him down reliably, I'm back to zero with this mode. Even if I could get there with full health, I'm not sure how to consistently survive.
Silverman however is very similar on Hard, but faces you with some slightly tougher crowds which makes the fight a little more entertaining, so that is cool.

Interestingly, stages 6 and 7 aren't very different on Hard. You'll face a bunch more enemies in the st6 hallway, but they didn't give me any additional trouble. The biggest difference IMO comes from the boss having a tad more health. Since you are fighting Phobos & Deimos on their own, that fight otherwise plays out identically to Normal (unlike Gecko, who feels more aggressive, though I might be wrong).
St7 felt almost identical to Normal, which was a big surprise! One you've survived the initial mortar attack, the rest of it was smooth sailing. A few enemy waves had a couple of added guys in the end (the pumas right before the boss caught me by surprise), but usually they won't pose any additional threat at all. Like the two pointless roombas showing up after you're done throwing golems around.
Even the boss fight seemed identical to me, with the same enemy constellations spawning next to Zelos.

Stage 8 actually felt easier to me on Hard, especially the first part. Made it to the hangar room almost without taking damage.
A massive difference comes up when you reach the healing item though, and you better pray that you haven't taken any notable damage up to this point. Because BIL's advice of leaving it on screen really comes in handy here, as that's where you suddenly run into an absurd enemy wave that seems to last forever. This is an absolutely insane addition that really makes this worthy of being the final stage. But holy hell, it's bordering on BS :P
Everything after that is completely identical to Normal mode, though. Except you get a full heal before the final boss, instead of just a large heal.

In fact, it seems like you occasionally get larger healing items on Hard than you do on Normal, to counteract some of the tougher encounters. Or maybe there's something else influencing which ones you get?
While knowing wave layouts is vital for a truly authoritative 1CC, I wouldn't call any of them unfair from basic survival perspective. I was going for sub-40min clears, a couple years back - just missed both, though I learned a lot. TNWA's the kind of game I'll be replaying until I fall off my chair, so I'll get 'em eventually. I suspect a real killer could get sub-35, but that would be mad murder machining on a whole other echelon.

Anyway, the handful of spots where I'm on pre-emptive alert (5.2/Ninja Room comes to mind) were easy to muddle through (I did a lot of muddling, returning after half a decade or so), but fiendishly tricky to demolish without suffering backstabs, pincers and all sorts of other bad shit. C'est la TNWA. You can take the edge off its nastiest waves via memo, but the advantage will only go so far.

So I could see players going for their first clear finding Hard much more intimidating. Likewise, if Hangar's giving you such a rough time, even with the HP trick, I would assume you're simply still learning (it's an onslaught, to be sure). By way of illustration: my last recorded Ninja Hangar attempt. Early on, I absolutely eat shit versus Headless, losing half my lifebar. By the end, I'm completely dominating that same enemy, having taken only a couple hits in between. Why the sudden improvement?

Well, this was done after many hours in Once Again, where Hover Dive's range is nerfed. Happily, Boost/Ram's is buffed, giving you a comparably good way to bypass Headless's nasty grapple. Plus, you have EX Nunchaku to guard-crush them, and probably more things I'm forgetting. So once I'd gotten back into TNWA mode, all was good. Would probably have died otherwise.

TLDR: Keep on keepin' on. :cool:

As far as I know, HP restores scale to your own remaining lifebar. I remember st2's getting bigger or smaller depending on my current status.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by Sumez »

While knowing wave layouts is vital for a truly authoritative 1CC, I wouldn't call any of them unfair from basic survival perspective.
How do you deal with a Saru that spawns (jumps down from the ceiling) exactly far enough that he can hit you, but you can't hit him? Seems to happen surprisingly often when I'm not prepared for it.
Outside of a blaster desperation attack, it seem like any way I try to approach it, even an attempt at dashing, will be met by a claw combo before I'm able to connect. Usually they need to do that little double jump before they launch an attack, but right when they spawn they are always poised and ready to strike D:

Honestly, these guys and the flame ninjas are the absolute biggest threat in any run I've had.
Maybe that, and golems that guard larger groups of other enemies (golem+panther+shinobu especially is deadly)
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by BIL »

Sarus are deadly at claw range, due to their horizontal reach and speed. As Kunoichi, I'll jumpkick them every time. As Ninja, what I'll typically do is get my guard up and approach. If they telegraph their "buzzsaw" attack (those hops), that's good for me - block it, then grab and (assuming the room is clear) squash him with an Atomic Drop, before executing him on wakeup.

If they go for the claw strikes, I'll let the first bounce off my guard, then tumble in and grab on recovery.

A golem shielding other enemies is one of the game's nastier situations (IIRC, stage 6's final wave is prone to this). If that happens, I'll get my guard up and back away - with a little luck, this'll lure out the shielded enemies. From there, I like to use them to flatten the Golem, then move in close and commence chain AD destruction.

Generally speaking, it's a good habit with both characters to keep your guard up - you can superjump/tumble on reaction, as well as safely bait out rangier enemies (like Pumas/Snakes, with their nasty back roundhouse). Fox/Secret Service guys (I think I'm remembering that name right) seem to love rushing in and grabbing a player doing this, so I modify my tactics around them.

Flamethrower has nasty reach, and will ofc blast straight through your guard. I seem to recall tumbles not doing well either, though it's been a while. However, he doesn't have much HP. Connect a shoulder ram, started from near enough to connect, but outside his burn range (so he won't preemptively torch you), land a couple punches, then AD him, and that should do it.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by Sumez »

BIL wrote:Sarus are deadly at claw range, due to their horizontal reach and speed. As Kunoichi, I'll jumpkick them every time. As Ninja, what I'll typically do is get my guard up and approach.
I'm so stupid. I always forget that Ninja can guard :D
I really need to get that into my reflexes. Right now I'm only using it strategically at certain spots where I know it'll be an advantage.

All of these guys are of course very easy on their own. Saru and flame guys especially, honestly. It's when they show up in dangerous constellations they become a real threat.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by BIL »

Guarding is fundamental to ninjutsu - as is tumbling around like a circus bear Image

Actually, do you have any Saru spawns in mind? I'm looking around my old replay, and surprised at how often I punch them, even from crouch. I seem to recall a certain "tell" preceding their claw attack, where they'll break off their monkeying around to stand still. Since punching chains directly into guard, I suspect I was anticipating this, in a lot of those instances.

Note that, as long as you're holding the [attack] button, you'll enter Guard instantly, following any other animation. Getting hit, or giving a hit, or waking up - as long as the button's held, you're good. This is excellent to know when attacking overlapped enemies - two or more jabbers will floor you far quicker than one. If I eat a jab in that situation, I'll get my guard up instantly while retreating.

Related, I remember one of the minor breakthroughs from those sessions, regarding Knife Army. Since they're the only enemy that can infinitely respawn (cf st4.1's opening, where they're supporting a lone Katana), I learned to think of them not as individuals, but... Zako Voltron. :shock: Three onscreen is a real threat - a high/low wall of knives will put you on your ass - so keep their critical mass at bay.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

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BIL wrote:I seem to recall a certain "tell" preceding their claw attack, where they'll break off their monkeying around to stand still. Since punching chains directly into guard, I suspect I was anticipating this, in a lot of those instances.
Yeah, once you get a Saru under control, it's perfectly manageable as they will actually only attack you when you're standing still (if you're moving around they will keep repositioning themselves). My issue is very concentrated around new spawns which for some reason allows them to attack right off the bat with no preparation. It's especially dangerous when they drop down while you're already fending off an existing wave. I can't remember it now, but I'm sure it happens at least a couple of times during the hangar brawl, but they do this on almost every stage on Hard.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

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Okay, I looked into what governs HP drops, and get ready for this, it's completely RNG. :evil: :evil: :evil:

Of course, that requires a little clarification.
Essentially, a crate can hold one of a few different things, some of them will always contain a Full Heal (like the one in the st8 hangar). Some will hold a random heal item that can be either a Large or a Full Heal, and it calls the RNG routine to determine this.

I haven't looked too much into the RNG implementation, but it checks on a single bit, so I think there's a 50/50 chance of either item. One weird thing to note though, is that whenever a new room is loaded, RNG is reset, and only updated when requested, which means only things that rely on RNG can change the sequence - So for example, if you were to only hold "right" upon entering a room and never release it, every enemy will always behave exactly the same.

Now, it would be really cool if this knowledge could be used to manipulate crates to always drop full heals, but unfortunately it's the other way around. The crate right before the final boss will never drop a full heal if you destroy it before any enemies appear, so you should never do that. But if you let them show up, you'll already have enough entropy that it'll be 50/50.

It might be possible to manipulate them in a way to ensure a full heal with certain timing, I'll have to look into that.

EDIT: Throw the crate forward once, and then keep holding forward until you walk into the first brown jacket Fox. Immediately hold up and throw to spin him around, the moment he is grabbed. If you hesitate even a split second, you'll most likely get the large heal instead of the full one.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by Vanguard »

Sumez wrote:How do you deal with a Saru that spawns (jumps down from the ceiling) exactly far enough that he can hit you, but you can't hit him? Seems to happen surprisingly often when I'm not prepared for it.
Outside of a blaster desperation attack, it seem like any way I try to approach it, even an attempt at dashing, will be met by a claw combo before I'm able to connect. Usually they need to do that little double jump before they launch an attack, but right when they spawn they are always poised and ready to strike D:

Honestly, these guys and the flame ninjas are the absolute biggest threat in any run I've had.
Maybe that, and golems that guard larger groups of other enemies (golem+panther+shinobu especially is deadly)
Hover dive is extremely good against sarus in general. It outranges them, their short height offers no protection against it, hovering often avoids their attacks, and its damage is pretty good too. It's very solid overall, a contender for Ninja's best move. The only flaw is its vulnerable startup time.
Sumez wrote:I'm so stupid. I always forget that Ninja can guard :D
I really need to get that into my reflexes. Right now I'm only using it strategically at certain spots where I know it'll be an advantage.

All of these guys are of course very easy on their own. Saru and flame guys especially, honestly. It's when they show up in dangerous constellations they become a real threat.
Yeah, it's good to reflexively block as soon as something starts a combo on you. It'll save you a bit of damage and it might preserve your blaster charge. I don't block to anticipate anything except maybe when Phobos or Deimos do their slide kick. Any time you take a hit that doesn't knock you off your feet, you want to block, somersault, or blaster immediately. If you're surrounded and can't blaster your way out, blocking and backflipping will probably just get you hit from behind, in that situation a frontflip is probably your best bet.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

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Yeah, that's the thing. None of the tricks really work as Ninja against a Saru that just spawned within claw range. Nevermind the blocking thing, I just tried that out (with savestates, on an emulator I had fired up anyway to test out the healing spawn thing), and I literally could not find any way to deal with a Saru dropped from the ceiling at a vulnerable range, outside of knowing ahead of time where not to stand.
Blocking before you get hit requires pulling out a complete punch animation first, and by the time that one is over, you'll already be mauled by his claw. You don't have time to move away, or move in for a grab, and even the dash has too long of a wind-up, so obviously the hover dive is way too slow.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

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The only Saru drops I ever cared to memorise are the Ninja Room quartet - not to avoid damage (being in the screen center will get you pincered, but that's dangerous with virtually any enemy type) - but because I want to damage them at roughly equal rates (other enemy types will tag in as each dies - can get ugly). Bombing is the obvious answer, but I like to keep one in stock for the subsequent ruck.

Otherwise, it's Shinobus and Kages I tended to keep in mind, like the ones who smokebomb into st7's monorail (this is one of my favourite things I've ever recorded, super tactile slam n' slash :cool:). Again though, this is more about efficiency than survival. It's not difficult to reset the room in TNWA, if worst comes to worst I'll grab someone on wakeup, Giant Swing, then boost to the left edge and spam P to regroup.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

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You're talking about the area in the middle Jubei's stage where four of them jump you all at once, right? I used to get trolled there pretty badly so I always anticipate it even if I haven't played for a year. Hover dive right -> hover dive left -> repeat shuts them down hard. Because sarus attack low, the hover dive's startup time isn't too much of an issue. They are without a doubt super nasty if you don't know they're coming, but now you do know they're coming.

The space elves that start showing up at the end of Phobos and Deimos's stage are a similar story, they don't have any good way to deal with the hover dive.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by BIL »

Ah sheeit :o I rocket fisted their arseholes, then threw 'em some more beatin' while my Bomb was charging, then nuked the little fuckers. Monkey extermination complete, god damn I was caning it around then. :cool:

And after a couple of sharp Flamethrower/Shinobu reversals, I managed to get dropkicked by a Katana. :lol: Lesson: get your guard up if a Katana is in dropkick range. Tumble into the dropkick if something is trying to backstab you during.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by Sumez »

Yeah, that assault in Jubei's stage is identical on Normal, so I have that one memorized. It's easy to deal with when you know they are coming.

Hard mode see a lot more of them dropping down here and there though. It's not necessarily multiple of them, but they like to show up while you are already busy fighting other guys, and if you're in an unfortunate spot, they'll get you. Happened to me multiple times on my credit feed through Hard mode, so I'm surprising it doesn't ring any more true to you guys.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by BIL »

If you have any specific locations, I can probably give some tips. It does sound pretty unusual to me - I never really thought of TNWA as a trap-happy game, nor a memo-intensive one, even going for my very first clears. I was mostly afraid of getting swamped (particularly during bosses), something that receded as I learned just how dominant grappling was (skipping Normal might've had something to do with this).

As lame as it may sound, there's a lot of "feel" to this game which, combined with a mastery (or at least familiarity) with enemy behaviour, can really dial down the threat level. It may be you're just reacting to those spawns in an inefficient way. I was genuinely surprised when Obscura asked me if Kunoichi's jumpkick was useless, a while back, with it being one of her most valuable tools. At that point, the optimal execution had become second nature to me.

(relevant GIF)
Spoiler
Image


^ actually quite a lot going on there, between kicks meant to combo, and ones deliberately kept short, to ward off the pincer I'm in the middle of. Somewhere between/beyond is the range and timing that'll get you brutally shut out. Note also the consistent entering of guard following attacks, allowing not only blocking, but also efficient zoning (will keep you facing the enemy, while slowing your retreat).

TNWA's a genuinely rich brawler, you shouldn't expect everything to click in a couple weeks' intensive play. Expect to learn/re-learn a bunch of stuff when you go for Kunochi's Hard 1CC too (like her critical weakness being a lack of not power, but reach - don't try crouch P'ing Katanas, like I did there!) That's NATSUME SFC POWER TRIO value, mirite :cool:
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

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I don't have trouble with sarus dropping down on me outside of that one ambush, but if one does suddenly spawn on you, inside of clawing range but outside of grappling range, your best bet may be to throw a crouching punch as fast as you can. They can be pretty bad off the edges of the screen, and the only solution I know of is to not hang around the edge of the screen if there's a saru over there.
BIL wrote:As lame as it may sound, there's a lot of "feel" to this game which, combined with a mastery (or at least familiarity) with enemy behaviour, can really dial down the threat level. It may be you're just reacting to those spawns in an inefficient way. I was genuinely surprised when Obscura asked me how to jumpkick enemies without getting anti-aired as Kunoichi, some time back, probably because the timing/trajectory had become second nature to me.
Yeah for me the jump kick was really hard until suddenly it became really easy. Feels rewarding.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

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BIL wrote:As lame as it may sound, there's a lot of "feel" to this game which, combined with a mastery (or at least familiarity) with enemy behaviour, can really dial down the threat level.
This is the true quality of the game. At the core of any good game of this style is, against this enemy, this pattern, or this move, these actions are the proper ways to deal with it, and so on. That's a recipe that risks becoming rote, but TNWA is able to constantly mix and match these situations on the fly and with just enough randomness that there is a constant puzzle, figuring out the correct solution to any given situation, and doing so immediately.
It honestly feels to me a lot like a fast paced Tetris game, which might be one reason I enjoy it so much.

And at the core of any good action games, is appealing to the point where knowledge of little details in the behaviors of specific enemies becomes second nature, rather than simply something you have memorized (this is also the strength of my darling Rainbow Islands), and in the case of TNWA this is paired with a similar intimate feel for your entire arsenal of moves, all which have wind-ups, cooldowns, movements, coverage and i-frames that play into the mix, only lending to the puzzle. You can learn it all, but the only way to truly master the game is to feel it, which again makes the comparison to Tetris weirdly strong.
This is also the strength your familiarity with your fighter of choice in a good fighting game, but TNWA manages to hit that same stride without any attempts to actually make it play like one (a tendency I'm not really fond of in the beat'em ups that do it).

That said...
It may be you're just reacting to those spawns in an inefficient way.
Again, this is an example of a spawn that I can't find any efficient way to react to, outside of the blaster's panic button. You just need to know where not to stand!
I think I'll need to watch through your Ninja playthroughs to see if I can spot it happening to you at any point :P
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by Sumez »

A good example of how intimate knowledge of enemy behaviors comes into play. With enemies like the Panthers and Shinobu, it's usually not safe to quietly walk up to grab them, due to their fast jabs. But depending on what they are doing and how they move, there are times when it is - and it's hard to point out exactly when, but it feels natural and never unfair, and that's the sign of an incredibly well designed game.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by BIL »

Would love to hear from you on my runs, it'd be good to see the game with a new set of eyes. :smile: TBH, some of the stuff that looks (if I do say so myself :oops:) super ballsy, like Hovering to slap down that annoying Katana, then ducking Shinobu and crushing him and his backup (Ninja Room link above), was at least partially panic - crouching in front of Shinobu will trigger his brutal guillotine counter, not something I'd normally do. But suddenly faced with multiple incoming jabs, I hit the dirt and fire back however I can, wangling a PPK/surprise wipeout.

Just before that, I charge the Flamethrower entering from the right - completely motion-blind to Katana, who intercepts the deadly blow, Secret Service-style. MR PWESIDENT GIT DOWN Image This leads to a nice illustration of how lightning-quick TNWA's grapples lock on - as I hold [right] for dear life, and Flamey (enjoying the attack frames Katana bought him) is hauled clean off the floor, my cruel iron fist GRIPPING ON HE BAWLS. :shock: Mistakes into miracles, that's how we do Image

Other things, like the st7 monorail massacre (again linked above) are total control. As you say, TNWA's immortal appeal is in it having all the puzzle pieces for dominant play, but constantly shifting them, just quick enough that even veterans will find themselves scrambling at times.

Looking back at both my 2019 Ninja runs, I see a lot of missed Atomic Drops. Some were deliberate, hoping to shuffle the crowd for a collective Nunchaku/Rocket thrashing. Some were outright input errors - I was using that odd Switch USB controller with the removable dpad... which actually served me for a good ~3yrs of casual emulator tourism, but didn't hold up to serious runs. Next time I go for sub-40, it'll probably be on my SFC cart.

These last few posts have me excited about sub-35, actually. As I've said many times over the years, while I OFC respect the players, I'm not into speedrunning - I'd rather kill everything in sight than run past it. Brawlers tend to be the exception, tying speed to utter martial dominance - and TNWA is one of the finest brawlers ever. Image

Panthers and Shinobus both have a slight gambling element - they have very nasty knockdowns (roundhouse and headbutt, respectively), which can blow away an approaching player. However, these attacks are just slow enough that an aggressive walk-in might catch them out. They also have weaker, quicker jabs - again, while three will knock you down, an aggressive approach can wade straight through them for the grab. I seem to recall using Ninja's reach to land a punch from just within range, then aggressively moving in, so whatever their response, a grab will quickly ensue.

EDIT: Sumez, it just hit me - are you playing TNWA (SFC) or The Ninja Warriors (SNES)? The latter apparently has a fuckton more Sarus, since censorship saw Katanas deleted (boobs are ok, NOT BUNS THO :shock:). That would explain a lot.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by Vanguard »

BIL wrote:EDIT: Sumez, it just hit me - are you playing TNWA (SFC) or The Ninja Warriors (SNES)? The latter apparently has a fuckton more Sarus, since censorship saw Katanas deleted (boobs are ok, NOT BUNS THO :shock:). That would explain a lot.
That would explain it. I couldn't find any bad saru ambushes in the JP version aside from that one in stage 5.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by Sumez »

SFC version, of course!

And it has plenty of bad Saru ambushes, I don't know what you guys are talking about :P Again, the st8 hangar battle is a good example, but almost every stage has them.
I just read through Durandal's marathon review of the game, and he complains about the exact same thing! He also points out another scenario that can be a little infuriating - the Foxes can issue jump attacks from outside the visible screen, and they can do so right after spawning, before you have even seen that they exist yet.
This one is less frustrating to me, because the edges of the screen is easier recognized as a dangerous place to occupy (you oughta know not to stand by the window, somebody see you up there), but it still feels a little wrong in a game that's otherwise so expertly designed.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by BIL »

Haha, I figured you were aligned with glorious Nihon. Image :mrgreen: Still, it's the only explanation I can think of. (you know I always stand against bad memo Image)

I will say, I had no (conscious) idea Sarus were actually influenced to attack by the player standing still. So it may be you know something we don't, and vice-versa. (offhand, my knowledge base of situationally-triggered AI consists of Katanas' dropkick, Foxes' rushing grab, and Shinobus' guillotine overhead)

Fox's offscreen jumpkick is definitely annoying, no forgetting that one (they still do it in Once Again, IIRC). I wouldn't mind if they were restricted to doing it post-spawn. But yeah, "guard up around screen edge" is a trivial workaround.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by Sumez »

I wouldn't call it "bad memo" as such, it's just a few places in the game where I feel I get punished through no fault of my own. I only bring it up because it's a minor stain on an otherwise insanely spotless game.

When I'm at the point where any single hit can make the difference between living or dying, it's very notable to me, but if you have HP to spare it doesn't really matter. I'm sure it's much less of an issue the more you've played the game - it happens more than a few times on Normal as well, and I memorized those places pretty fast.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

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This talk has got me playing The Ninja Warriors Again again. I really should not have slept on this one as long as I did. It's such a classic, probably the best Super Nintendo game, though for me the best Super Famicom game is still Shiren the Wanderer. Right now I'm at about a 33% 1CC rate as Ninja and 10% as Kunoichi.
Sumez wrote:And it has plenty of bad Saru ambushes, I don't know what you guys are talking about :P Again, the st8 hangar battle is a good example, but almost every stage has them.
I just read through Durandal's marathon review of the game, and he complains about the exact same thing! He also points out another scenario that can be a little infuriating - the Foxes can issue jump attacks from outside the visible screen, and they can do so right after spawning, before you have even seen that they exist yet.
That's really strange to me. I don't notice or think about saru spawns aside from that one incident in stage 5. Hover dive shuts them down so hard that they're not a problem at all without support. It'd be annoying if one spawned on top of you while you were already fighting something else but that never ever happens to me. Maybe I'm subconsciously avoiding those spots but I think the problem is a wrong approach. Either that or maybe normal mode has nastier saru spawns than hard. Fox jumpkicks I get, those are a pain even when they're not off screen. They give you a lot less advance notice than the diving attacks from sarus and enemy kunoichis. Maybe they have a tell and I just don't notice it.
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Sumez
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by Sumez »

I challenge you to load up an emulator, position Ninja so that he cannot punch a Saru that spawns from the ceiling, but said Saru can punch him, and make a quicksave right after it spawns. Keep loading it and try whatever you can to counter the situation. The only thing I've been able to find that works is the blaster desparation move. :P
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by BIL »

At that range, you should be able to Hover Dive them? Their claw is neutralised by its height. I seem to recall it beating their buzzsaw, too. Not my favoured approach, but only because I came around to HD's utility relatively recently (and then picked up TNWOA, which nerfs it, dohoho)

I'm really curious where these spawns are, because while I know TNWA well enough that survival is no longer a problem with either character (only performance), I don't ever recall memorising around chronic monkey teabaggings.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by Sumez »

BIL wrote:At that range, you should be able to Hover Dive them?
You don't even have the time to pull up a defense or walk away from them. Man, I feel like I'm so on the wrong track here, because it feels crazy to me that it doesn't seem familiar to you :D But it's something that's struck me every time I tried playing through the game, and on Hard mode especially, it was a killer.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by BIL »

Hover comes out so quickly, and neutralises their claw so completely, I can't imagine it failing. Try hitting [jump] the instant you notice one drop from the ceiling, then [down+attack] - they really shouldn't have any answer to that. If they're literally on top of you, just use the neutral Spin or Rising variants [attack / up+attack]. Even if you were to somehow dive in the wrong direction, you'd be left well outside their striking range. :lol:
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by Vanguard »

Sumez wrote:I challenge you to load up an emulator, position Ninja so that he cannot punch a Saru that spawns from the ceiling, but said Saru can punch him, and make a quicksave right after it spawns. Keep loading it and try whatever you can to counter the situation. The only thing I've been able to find that works is the blaster desparation move. :P
Alright, I did just that. Save is right here:

Image

Punching now would be way too slow even if it was just the one saru in front, but there is still time to dodge their poke with a hover and counter with a dive. Now, admittedly, hitting hover after the saru spawns and before it hits the halfway point in the screen requires a fast reflex. Not impossible if you know they're coming, but it is a bit much to ask of someone with no foreknowledge. I'm willing to characterize that spot as a cheap shot even if it isn't strictly unreactable. But the thing is, this is the only spot I could find in the entire game where a saru spawns anywhere near the center of the screen. The great majority of them walk in from the edges like everyone else. There was one in the harder path of stage 8 where a saru drops down near the edge of the screen, but he does so right in front of a grabbable computer, so even if you aren't ready for him, you should be able to lift that in time and iframe through his poke. There's another that drops down near the edge of the screen in the big brawl in stage 8 that could conceivably cheap shot you if you were on that side of the screen and already dealing with something else, but it's never been a problem for me. I just don't think it's a big deal.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by BIL »

Ah, the Ninja Room. Only slightly less assholic in TNWOA! TBH, the entire middle section (beyond the opening Kage/Saru team, and prior to the final Shinobu/Katana/Kage wave) is so infernally prickly, I'm on red alert from beginning to end. So easy to get knocked flat on your back, especially as Ninja. Any monkey business there is just par for the course, imo (as linked a few posts back, even my usual Monkey Extermination Protocol is somewhat fraught, requiring me to face off with three Sarus and a Katana before the next bomb comes in. I mean I guess I could hide in the corner and spam P, but that is shamefur. Ninja does not hide, he locates the target and kills them with terrifying yet passionless violence. :cool:)

Meanwhile in Kunoichiland (witness a man so pissed off at Fucking Ninja Room, he deliberately superjump-alerts everybody in the place so he can kill them more angrily Image One knockdown apiece... I'll kill those motherfuckers properly next time Image)

Definitely give Kunoichi a try after you get the Ninja clear, Sumez. No exaggeration to say TNWA packs in two games' worth of content - the contrast between her and Ninja is masterfully keen. I ain't even mad at Kamaitachi being an EZMODE pick. Though I might be tempted to use his ROM space for more frames/content! Even though his Crouch P is wildly overpowered, he still packs some completely unique mechanics of his own. Worth at least one Hard clear of his own.
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Re: Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch/PS4 List)

Post by Vanguard »

Found another falling saru near the end of the first segment of stage 3. I think that's all of them. He drops in at the edge of the screen midway through a fight, so he could absolutely catch you while you're doing something else. So all in all there's one spot where you are very likely to get cheap shotted if you don't know about it in advance and two spots where they probably won't get you, but they can if you're unlucky. I now agree that it's a flaw that that can happen, just not a very serious one.
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