Dungeon crawler recomendations

[Ghegs]

I don't think it the Three Towers was that bad. Sure, it took a long time to get through, but it was a multi-level dungeon (wasn't it something like 10 floors overall?), and you could only move to the other towers from specific points, and there was quite a bit of going back and forth. I do recall I had to pay more attention on where I wanted to go and how to get there. "Okay, I want to get to that tower's fifth floor, so when I enter here, I go down two floors, over the bridge to that tower and back up from there using the lower path" or something to that effect. I think I had some notes on paper on where some places were and how to get to them.

Related, the Labyrinth of Galleria: The Moon Society Limited Edition should be shipping next week. Despite not being totally in love with Refrain, I still wanted to get the sequel, and I opted for the LE because it comes with a board/card game. "Yo dawg, we put a game in your game, so can game while you game!".

Still kinda looking more forward to Labyrinth of Zangetsu...

[m.sniffles.esq]

I'm looking forward to Galleria, mostly because the word I got from a couple different people is that it's less of a sequel, and more of a top-to-bottom improvement. And if I liked Refrain (which I did, albeit, with some pretty big annoyances) I'd probably love Galleria.

[BryanM]

It's nice they're localizing their Dungeon Meshi game, I thought it was just niche enough for them not to bother. Since it was more like a trial platform for them to prototype their new 3D art.

Its marketing was on point.

[Ghegs]

I'm looking forward to Galleria, mostly because the word I got from a couple different people is that it's less of a sequel, and more of a top-to-bottom improvement. And if I liked Refrain (which I did, albeit, with some pretty big annoyances) I'd probably love Galleria.

Well that sounds good. Maybe I'll like it more than Refrain, then.

It's nice they're localizing their Dungeon Meshi game, I thought it was just niche enough for them not to bother. Since it was more like a trial platform for them to prototype their new 3D art.

I got all excited but then I found some gameplay footage and it's not a blobber, and the pre-order page says it's a "unique combination of gameplay from the SRPG, roguelike, and survival game genres" which doesn't sound like my cup of tea. But the gameplay doesn't look too bad? Looks like it's an action-RPG when exploration, but changes into a SRPG during combat? And it's still the basic DRPG party with four characters and you can customize your class? I'm kind of intrigued and would like to hear more.

Also, what's wrong with "Cadavers for Dinner" as a title? "Monster Menu: The Scavenger's Cookbook" is so more tame...

[BryanM]

They really grasp for adjectives to try to make something sound more complicated or unique than it is, don't they? Grid based fantasy skirmishes are as old and crusty as Dungeons and Dragons.

Seems like you run through procedural generated dungeons, murder things, and perform lots of dire inventory management with food. It looks rather bad imo, not great for a liminal nor active puzzle nor imaginary friend kind of experience. But that's kind of the point.

Like I said, more of a proof of concept for their graphics engine than something they have much confidence in. Sometimes I wonder if they intentionally want to continue to be bottom feeders; Labyrinth of Refrain was the first time I played a game of theirs without feeling like they were doing the bare minimum required to fill out a game, at least a little.

[m.sniffles.esq]

Wow, I hadn't seen that trailer...

Monster Menu seems like... Something I'll get it on sale.

(actually... looking at all the nutty stuff that comes in the SE...)

[Steven]

Etrian is back, and on PC. Hell yes.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I went old-school for a while - I had bought a CIB copy of Swords and Serpents on NES back in December, started playing it a few weeks ago, and today I beat it.

I appreciate the writeup on this! It's a game I picked up a while ago and while I've poked around at it and found the interface amusing, haven't done a serious attempt to beat it yet. Any thoughts on party layout? You're stuck with whatever you make, and I believe the manual recommends at least two spellcasters due to the need for exploration, but was wondering if three spellcasters, one warrior is perhaps even better in the long run.

[Ghegs]

A surprise, but a welcome one indeed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaMv86lLRgY

I thought the "make your own maps" -feature was so tied into the (3)DS double-screen tech it was holding the dev back from porting the games to anything else, but I'm happy to have been proven wrong. Having both manual mapping via touch-screen or controller AND an auto-map option is great.

[Steven]

Apparently these are ports of the DS versions, not the 3DS versions, so none of the 3DS stuff is going to be there.

Having fully half of the screen be the very giant UI is very awkward, but given the way these games play there really isn't a lot else they probably could have done without requiring the player to open a menu or something similar.

Not sure if I want to get these on PC now because Denuvo. Thanks, Sega.

[Ghegs]

I went old-school for a while - I had bought a CIB copy of Swords and Serpents on NES back in December, started playing it a few weeks ago, and today I beat it.

I appreciate the writeup on this! It's a game I picked up a while ago and while I've poked around at it and found the interface amusing, haven't done a serious attempt to beat it yet. Any thoughts on party layout? You're stuck with whatever you make, and I believe the manual recommends at least two spellcasters due to the need for exploration, but was wondering if three spellcasters, one warrior is perhaps even better in the long run.

The spellcasters are required for the Passwall -spell, and they are the only source of healing. My party was Warrior/Thief/Mage/Mage, with the former mage mostly dedicated to casting Passwall and the latter relegated to healer/buffer role, changing things around as needed of course. Having two mages also doubles the amount of MP your party has overall, and the only way to refill MP is via Temples or the Fountains. Once you know where they are you can plan your route with them in mind, but the first time you go into a new floor your exploration period is basically determined how much MP you have left, especially in the lower floors, before you have to make a retreat to the closest Temple. Not that a party wipe is a real issue, since the punishment is basically a slap on the wrist.

So in that regard, three Mages might be good since it increases the amount of time you can spend exploring. On the other hand, once you know where everything is and are able to minimize your exploration/wandering aimlessly around, having just a single Mage might be enough. Thieves also have a special ability where they can insta-kill any enemy on occasion (not shown during battle in anyway, sometimes you just see an enemy killed despite them having full HP), so a party of three Thieves to increase the chances of that happening and a Mage might be the strongest party. There aren't that many weapons that a Warrior can equip that a Thief can't, and both classes can use the same armors.

But that's just conjecture on my part. Maybe if I ever do another run of the game, I'll use that party.

Also, if you're going to play it like I did and use passwords like it's 1990, don't bother changing the character's names, just use what the game offers during character creation. When you restore a game, it offers you the default names so you can move past the name-entry screen, but if you changed any, you have to type out the character's name before entering their password. Saves you a little bit of time every time you start the game up.

I used the default characters' names but not in the order the game offers by default, because that would make your party Mage/Warrior/Thief/Mage (if you go by what their classes are in the manual, anyway), and having a mage be first, even though the game has no mechanics where the character order matters, just felt wrong to me, so I had to type out two of the character's name every restore.

[m.sniffles.esq]

Not sure if I want to get these on PC now because Denuvo. Thanks, Sega.

Unless you have a Steam deck, I don't know why you'd want it on anything but the Switch.
Like are they seriously doing a PS5 version? That's real?

[BryanM]

Why would you own a Switch or Playstation when every single game in the world except first party Nintendo games is on PC now.

.... what the fuck. Steam is selling them for forty buckeroos, each. Like, per-game. Lol, yeah that's gonna happen...

Oh, and a buy two get one free option. Only eighty buckeroos. Whatta deal.

DLC are SMT character portraits... two unique to each game.

1: Joker and Ringo
2: Demi-fiend and Teddy
3: Nahobino and Aigis

[m.sniffles.esq]

Why would you own a Switch or Playstation when every single game in the world except first party Nintendo games is on PC now.

It's hard to take my PC on the bus?

[Sima Tuna]

Apparently these are ports of the DS versions, not the 3DS versions, so none of the 3DS stuff is going to be there.

Having fully half of the screen be the very giant UI is very awkward, but given the way these games play there really isn't a lot else they probably could have done without requiring the player to open a menu or something similar.

Not sure if I want to get these on PC now because Denuvo. Thanks, Sega.

The price is really unreasonable. $40 per nintendo DS rom, or $80 for all three. They aren't even the 3ds versions of 1 and 2. Nor do they include those games/versions as extras.

Knowing this is the price point they are using for what will probably amount to minimum-effort DS ports, I'm skeptical what will happen when/if they bring over Etrian IV, V and Nexus. I want Etrian on the Switch, but I don't think the pricing model is fair. It feels to me like Sega is exploiting the fact old copies of the games are selling for over $100 apiece, while ignoring that the digital versions of the 3ds etrian games would regularly go on sale for around $15 each. Sometimes less. When they were on 3ds, the pricing was somewhere around $20-30 without a sale. Maybe $40 for nexus, I dunno. But Nexus was a full release made for that console, not a port.

It feels to me like Sega is taking advantage of the market and the current Etrian situation (all Etrian digital games will shortly be unavailable for purchase on 3ds) to exploit the maximum amount of money they can get. A reasonable pricing model would have been all three games for $40, or $20 per game. That would have been competitive with the pricing model used for the recent Persona ports to Switch.

Oh yes, and day 1 portrait dlc does not inspire goodwill.

[BryanM]

I was expecting 60 to start..

There is a hefty saturation point in their backlog there. At 11 games (more if they wanna stretch and toss 7th Dragon in there), you can have a full part time job for an entire year just playing through them once. It's honestly at the point of tossing out an Unlimited Adventures/Mario Maker type deal, if not for the profit motive.

Intentionally hobbling other products to keep their cash cows healthy is rather surreal, isn't it? Nintendo always goes out of their way to ensure you can not recreate a real Mario game in Mario Maker. Mobile games made by established console developers are always as dogshit as they can make them; they could make the best 2D/2.5D Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy game of all time but they don't wanna.

The most insidious bullshit, though? It's this new font bullshit they've been pulling off. The latest Final Fantasy "remake" collection? This thing???

It ain't a mistake, they are humans with eyes. It's like speedbumps on the road, to passively discourage people from actually playing this old stuff. "Buy the new stuff; it won't cause your eyeballs to squeeze together and turn you into a cyclops."

Look at'em hoarding the good stuff in the JP release. Clever little demonlords...

[BrianC]

Etrian is back, and on PC. Hell yes.

Gone Gone the form of man, rise the dungeon crawler Etrian.

Why are these assumed to be DS roms? It looks like the display is retooled for current systems and the graphics are definitely in higher resolution.

[BryanM]

I'm pretty sure they mean that as their perceived value, kind of like buying Final Fantasy 1 during the middle of the Playstation 2 era. It's been some time.

Some website claims they'll be getting a whopping 10% off alongside DLC for preordering, but the Steam page doesn't say that yet.

On the human side of things, I believe them when they say they're using these as a test run for their plans for the next game. Losing the second screen is a big hit to the map drawers demographic, and they're probably antsy about that. It's really irreconcilable outside of portable mode; getting out of bed/off the couch to use the mouse every two seconds is a non-starter, using the controller to draw lines on a map is most unsatisfying. Like playing a sports game with a video game controller - a pale imitation of the real thing.

[m.sniffles.esq]

Amazon is saying my copy of Galleria won't reach me until Friday-Sunday of next week
I'll had this thing pre-ordered since freaking August...

Well, I'll be walking past the Mom and Pop store on Friday, if they have it in, Bezos is going to be giving me a refund.

[Sima Tuna]

Amazon preorders have always been a total crapshoot for me. I've heard from people who got their games a day early or on the same day. But when I preorded pocky and rocky, it took about a month from the day of the game releasing until Amazon sent me my copy.

[MJR]

Never did make any paper maps back in the day. Just memorized the jist of things as I went. Guess it helped Dungeon Master had little backtracking, just the occasional "hub room" that connected to some small self-contained wings. That was really good game design for the kind of games these were - if you wanted to draw a map sure, but you didn't have to. That's one big reason to keep the floors small like 16x16 - the number of tiles in a room start growing fast the bigger you make the square.

Labyrinth of Refrain's Three Towers dungeon was hellish enough with the autonap. I know Etrian Odyssey games are junior league: I shudder at the real horrors one can make, if one wanted to make a real labyrinth game. Definitely an idea for experimental kusoge.

These days, the brain ain't what it used to be. Reminds me of how rats have diminished maze memorization skills as they age. Supposedly plasma proteins can recover much of that, eh...

I'm super happy that at least SOMEONE mentioned Dungeon Master in positive light this thread. To me, it still remains the best designed Dungeon crawler of all time. I love how it did completely away with the menus, everything was operated straight with your mouse-controlled hand icon, everything you saw could be touched or operated, or had some kind of gameplay functionality. This kind of functionality is very rare in games even today.

I also loved how you could choose how you wanted to level your characters, you even resurrected them to build your party so they came up with some kind of predetermined stats, or you reincarnated them when they had hardly any stats, but you could train them to become almost anything.

I also loved how the stat building was done. You got good with hitting weapons by picking up one and starting hitting with it. You gained stamina (=ability to withstand pain) by experiencing it. You got good at throwing by throwing things. In Chaos Strikes Back, I reincarnated my characters and they dropped naked in dark room full of monsters. Before continuing, I trained them for hours by making them to run into wall and throwing rocks at wall. Many, many hours later my characters were so powerful that they 1-hit pretty much anything in the game. There was a labyrinth full of invisible walls that was filled with Dragons. I used it as live food storage. When ever my heroes got hungry, I went there and 1-hit killed one Dragon, and left with juicy Dragon steaks, as you could eat the monsters you killed.

Chaos Strikes Back almost remains the rare Dungeon Crawler with an actual 3D level layout that extends through the whole game world in all directions, rather than flat levels with little bit of vertical extension separated by multiload; the whole maze was a huge cube which was laid out intricately so that you if you figured out it's architecture, you could find shortcuts around it. There were also puzzles constructed around it for finding vertical paths through pitfalls that you could could descend, and go back up too if you found rope. The goal area was in the center of the maze; and I mapped it so that I created the map on layers of grid paper which I observed through light to see how I can navigate it in all three dimensions. Yes, that is probably too much to some people..

I think Dungeon Master is now probably dismissed as being "old", or too hard/painful, but just like Starflight, it still remains unsurpassed in some areas. I did notice lot of games coming up later which were clearly inspired by it, but in my opinion they never really reached quite the same heights. Even sequel by FTL themselves, Dungeon Master II, was disappointing.

What really interests me is the PC-Engine CD version of Dungeon Master, called Theron's Quest, which I'd really like to play - although I am not 100% sure if I still had patience today for such a game

[m.sniffles.esq]

Amazon preorders have always been a total crapshoot for me. I've heard from people who got their games a day early or on the same day. But when I preorded pocky and rocky, it took about a month from the day of the game releasing until Amazon sent me my copy.


Yeah, it's normally been a day after release/two days maybe.
The thing is, NISA doesn't do direct pre-orders of regular editions, only SEs. They link to Amazon if you try to get the regular editions from their site.

And I have Void Terrarium 2 couple in a couple weeks... This better not be the beginning of a pattern.

Although, I do have a consolation in that I finally downloaded a z-machine translator for my phone, and I'm currently working through the second of Infocom's Enchanter trilogy: Sorcerer. So my commute is filled with plenty of dungeon crawling... in my mind

[MX7]

I was surprised by the price for the EO remasters. They look like they're using the EOIV engine, or something comparable to it, definitely not DS ROMs. I think £50 for the lot would be more than fair. £70 is a bit silly, given that even though I am absolutely the target audience for this, it's a bit much. I kind of respect the audacity of it though.

Currently playing the Metroid Prime remaster, which is ticking all my first person dungeon crawling boxes...

[Mero]

Just had Galleria pop through the door, though I'll have to wait for my new pad to arrive before I play it.

[BryanM]

DnD skirmish combat does seem underused. It's a good middle ground between the 8 second long meaningless scrub battles prevalent in jRPGs, and the 25+ minute long battles in tacticsy games. Taking some time with much fewer battles. Most don't exceed the 10 minute attention span limit of humans.

Before continuing, I trained them for hours by making them to run into wall and throwing rocks at wall. Many, many hours later my characters were so powerful that they 1-hit pretty much anything in the game.

I definitely have burn-in my brain from walking back and forth, throwing piles of stuff around to become a ninja.

I have tons of love for game mechanics and exploits that would be utterly stupid in real life. One of my favorite webnovels/comics is entirely about it: Only I Know The World Is A Game.

Really takes me back to nonsensical min/max strategies. Spending over ten minutes climbing up and down that tree in Quest for Glory. Creating characters, stealing their equipment and selling it, then deleting them. (Possible in lots of games, but few as lucrative as the leather armor warriors in Dragon Quest 3 carry.) Turning your guys into frogs and having them autobattle their way to gods. As frogs.

I think Dungeon Master is now probably dismissed as being "old", or too hard/painful

Aw, the main problems it has would be how monotonous and simple the walls are. And the spell system. And everyone expects an autonap these days.

But other than that it holds up really well imo. Everyone deep into first person crawlers should give it a try on the SNES or PC, if only because it was such a huge formulative game back in the day. (Man, isn't it crazy to think back when PC games were for nerds and the best-sellers at the time were games like Dungeon Master or King's Quest? When the top dog wasn't Call of Duty?)

The party creation screen is really memorable: walking down the hallway of heroes where you pick 1 to 4 characters from a possible 24 is extremely cool. Are there any other games that do the same thing, a hallway full of portraits or statues hyping up the heroicness of your dudes?

They look like they're using the EOIV engine, or something comparable to it, definitely not DS ROMs.

I would definitely try to preserve as much source as possible. Frankly, for how simple and similar these games are, I'd personally have designed these engines to be ridiculously cross compatible and this would be the prototype EO engine for the Switch+PC. Just plop the assets and scripts of one game into another one.

It's a bit of tautology to the end user though. The pinboards (flowers, bushes etc they use to hide the flatness of the walls) used in the dungeons don't look any different from those used in the DS games. (You'd have to play the DS versions with geometry prescaling pumped up a little to see this, though.)

It's not a bad thing - I personally would prefer they remain as authentic as possible. I absolutely loathe how there's 3 million different 2d versions of all the Final Fantasy games.

[m.sniffles.esq]

Just had Galleria pop through the door, though I'll have to wait for my new pad to arrive before I play it.


Just got an email from Amazon, and it should be here tomorrow.
This is good, because I discovered the mom and pop store I was going to buy it at is now a vape place...

Although, playing Sorcerer has got me thinking. Indie gaming went full-out with NES-chic. Do you think we'll see a return of Vic-20-chic? And will text adventures become a 'thing' again?

I mean, people went nutty over Disco Elysium, and that was pretty much a text adventure. And there is that annual homebrew text adventure competition.

[BryanM]

The PC-98 aesthetic has seen a bit of an upswing. It's to the point it made me consider making a thread about dithering here. Sexy sexy dithering...

Pure text adventures are as numerous as stars in the sky, just like webnovels. (So many dungeon management/crawling novels.) Hundreds are released every year. Only people interested in them know anything about them.

[m.sniffles.esq]

Pure text adventures are as numerous as stars in the sky, just like webnovels. (So many dungeon management/crawling novels.) Hundreds are released every year. Only people interested in them know anything about them.

Yeah, but they're all homebrew.
I'm talking about 'George RR Martin and Annapurna Interactive present "Chroniclez of Zork"'

[BryanM]

Oof, that's never happening. Not even in visual novel format.

I'm sure there's many people who can make a living off them just like there are for webnovels, but it's only ever enough to sustain one or two people at most. Every word an established king puts into one of these things is a word flushed down the toilet, and that was true even back in the Hitchhiker's day.

This reminded me of that time Stephen King "experimented" with releasing a novel online. 'member that? I think it had something to do with plants or something??? At least no characters in it ever said "no bounce no play", I think...

[m.sniffles.esq]

It just seems where the 'retro' arms race has to ultimately end. Pong and text adventures.