The world burns. Only Sega remains.

[BrianC]

VC2 DC isn't bad, but it's based on the PC port, which is a glossed up port of the Saturn version. I definitely love me some HotD2 (and typing of the dead) though.

[it290]

So of the 5 racing games mentioned, Test drive v-rally and le mans, the tokyo xtreme games and metropolis street racer, are these more arcadey style or sim oriented? I enjoy a sim game every now and then, but I'm looking more for arcadey stuff.

Test Drive V-Rally: Pretty arcadey. It has more of a 'career mode' than Sega Rally 2 does, and it's not oriented around beating a timer the same way, but the controls are super forgiving and arcadey and if you crash you just start where you were immediately.
Test Drive Le Mans: Kind of a hybrid as mentioned earlier, maybe slightly more sim-style but not a full on sim.
Tokyo Xtreme Racer 1/2: These are both pretty arcadey, though they're mostly built around upgrading/tuning your car and challenging other drivers to battles. If you ever played the old Street Rod games on PC or Amiga it's kind of like that but with Japanese cars.
Metropolis Street Racer: This is slightly more on the sim side, sort of like a lightweight Gran Turismo. If you've played any of the Project Gotham games, this is their progenitor.

[Obiwanshinobi]

By the way, what are some good racing games on the dreamcast? I got hydro thunder and f355 challenge on the SD card, Sega rally 2 and San Francisco rush 2049 seem like no brainers to add, any other good ones made by Sega or otherwise?

I haven't played TrickStyle much, but even its 50 Hz-only (on SDTV) PAL version seemed optimised (compared to the same build played in 60 Hz on VGA monitor) and it gave me impression of pretty solid coding (that era of middleware tech, from UT and QIII on PC, then DC to swan song Sniper Elite and Rogue Trooper Wii ports, bidden farewell by Chronicles of Riddick, then Doom 3 - evokes a hobbyist's interest within me). A thing it does, for my money, better than F-Zero GX (aesthetically) is the gritty future urban environment. Like that Judge Dredd game in a different genre, it has atmosphere for the lack of a better word.
Got a new, sealed PAL DC copy cheap a couple of years ago.

[BIL]

DC Le Mans is worth playing just for its stately, summery aesthetic. Most definitely a competent arcade/sim hybrid, too, with formidable speed on the straights and muscular handling in the turns, but the idealised snapshot of vintage motorsport is attractive in its own right. Kill the BGM and enjoy the exhaust notes and cheering crowds.

EDIT: I swear to God, I completely forgot this was a Test Drive game. My dad's a lifelong car nut who loves the occasional credit of OutRun and Rad Racer, and promptly bought TDIII: The Passion for our new PC circa 1990. I've rarely seen him so disgusted. DC Le Mans is always welcome in his house.

[qmish]

Kill the BGM

Would not. One of best d'n'b osts in racing games imho, together with Test Drive Unlimited (ps2/psp versions) from same composer.

[BIL]

Respected I'm an all/nothing sort with my racer BGM Open up your NES controller and tape over the PCB's [down] input, then hit the shell with Ferrari red and a layer of clear coat. That is now THE RAD RACER CONTROLLER

[Stevens]

All this racing talk has me dreaming of Outrun 3.

Make it happen Mr. Suzuki.

[cave hermit]

At some point it seems that I have become a Sega fanboy. Strange, as during my childhood I was a massive Nintendo fanboy to the point that I was bullied in middle school by the call of duty kids who realized they could get a rise out of me by going "THE WII SUCKS". Maybe this started a year or so ago when I picked up a Sega Genesis, since then I have gotten every Sega console released since, and while I haven't played their libraries thoroughly, I've really liked almost everything I've sampled. I'm guessing it's the arcade nature of their software libraries, combined with the arcade heritage of the hardware itself. Sega had always tried to sell the consoles on the promise of the arcade at home, and I feel that they largely succeeded. https://youtu.be/NTGvc2FE-O4?t=75

That said I am not a Sonic fanboy. Far from it. I have always enjoyed the Genesis Sonic games and have fond memories of playing them over and over via Sonic mega collection on the gamecube, but I've never touched any of the later games. I actually tried Sonic Adventure for the first time the other day, and man it hasn't aged well. Like I get sonic is supposed to be fast, but he is WAY too fast to control. And besides that the game flow is all over the place. Sonic's action stages have almost no interactivity to them, and the adventure sequences are just weirdly paced and confusing. Maybe Sonic adventure 2 is better, I heard that one is much more streamlined.

[null1024]

SA2 controls better than SA1, but it's still hilariously twitchy. The game has a bunch of issues. It's more refined, but it has so many problems on its own that I'm not sure if it's entirely better. Sonic Team post-Genesis is particularly bad when it comes to just taking a step back and refining a title like what happened with S1->S2->S3&K, SA1->S2->Heroes has a clear attempt to fix prior issues, but each release cocks up so much on its own.

I'm still much more fond of Sonic being hyper-twitchy in SA1/2 vs the "brick with a jet thruster strapped to it" control in the modern boost games. There's nothing as annoying as holding left, hitting boost, and Sonic moves to the right because he hasn't turned around yet. Then, repeat, since he STILL HASN'T TURNED AROUND WHEN YOU'VE STOPPED.
In SA1 or SA2, you input a direction, Sonic is already moving that way. Very snappy. Too snappy.
I still continue to enjoy SA2, and I continue to feel like if Sega made a Sonic game that was literally just fifteen or more SA2-style Sonic stages, it'd be considered the best 3D Sonic by miles. Miles. I really miss the much more interactive rail grinding that SA2 had too.

The not-Sonic bits of SA2 really kinda suck.
Eggman's stages are occasionally fun. Tails' stages are slightly worse versions of those.
Shadow's stages aren't quite as well designed as Sonic's [Final Chase is actively awful, the rest are entirely okay].
Knuckles stages are annoying. Protip: just restart the level if it takes you longer than five minutes to beat, since a: what you're looking for is in some particularly stupid place so there's no point in wasting time on it, b: IIRC, there's actually a bug where the emerald mightn't have spawned, and c: when you restart, the emerald or whatever might be some place you're already familiar with. Rouge's stages are all far more annoying than Knuckles'.

As for enjoying Sega in general... you know, I found myself spending just a lot more time playing stuff on the Genesis vs the SNES over time.
Yeah, the SNES has some absolute mega-hit titles and the Genesis... well, kinda doesn't, but all of those are certainly a lot more "involved" vs what I feel like playing.

[scrilla4rella]

Recently got Fighting Viper 2 fro DC in the mail. It's the perfect 4/20 game, bat-shit insane.

A few highlights:
A fighter with a BMX bike attached to his back that can used as a weapon,
A fighter who's stance is him strumming an air guitar, even though he has an actual guitar strapped to his back,
A totally hardcore skateboarding fighter with protective gear (nothing says bad-ass like helmet, elbow, and knee pads),
A final boss (who looks like Cobra Command's Serpentor) who goes by the name BM,

Back in the day I enjoyed the first FV game on Saturn, it seemed to be Sega going for more of a Tekken-like playstyle. It also reminds me of Rival Schools a bit. FV2 is pretty damn fun but very stupid. I can see why this didn't do well when it was released as every 3D fighter was compared to SoulCali but it's defiantly worth looking into if you want more arcade fancy action for the DC.

[BulletMagnet]

A final boss (who looks like Cobra Command's Serpentor) who goes by the name BM

I was in college, I needed the money!

[BrianC]

I'm thinking of double dipping on the Saturn Fighting Vipers since the jp version has Pepsiman.

[m.sniffles.esq]

Tokyo Xtreme Racer 1/2: These are both pretty arcadey, though they're mostly built around upgrading/tuning your car and challenging other drivers to battles.

I've had an ongoing campaign of Tokyo Xtreme 2 (the sequel is superior in every aspect) for the past year and a half, and I can safely say it is THE all-purpose racer for the Dreamcast. The reason being, is that it can be played strictly arcade, a strict sim, and/or pretty much every level in between., by starting you in an arcade environment, then gently nudging you to treat it more as sim one element at a time (even though you're never forced to). The available cars are pretty varied (although I'm not crazy about the lack of licensees, forcing the use of funny named facsimiles of actual cars. Even though, a chart of what actual vehicle the facsimiles line up to is pretty easy to find), and they make some of the best cars obtainable in the early stages of the game so you're never forced to grind for something decent.

Not to mention, one of the most ingenious and addictive aspects of the gameplay is how they combine practice and official races, letting you run the course to your heart's content and choosing to take on an opponent whenever you feel ready, without a break in the gameplay. It seems minor, but it really helps in building up and keeping your nerve.

Unfortunately, you can't find this one for $5 anymore. But the $20 - $30 it does seem to go for is still way worth it.

[Austin]

I rocked the original Tokyo Extreme Racer for three days straight a few weeks back. Just got hooked to it. Still a great game if you ask me, but it gets pretty tough at the end. I got the first "ending", then another small set of boss cars unlocked and I couldn't defeat them. Might go back and try again.

I don't have TER 2, but I do have Zero, the PS2 version. Will probably fire that up soon.

I'm thinking of double dipping on the Saturn Fighting Vipers since the jp version has Pepsiman.

Worth it.

[Steamflogger Boss]

I checked my records and I paid $30 shipped for Kanon, Frame Gride, Biohazard CV, Firepro Wrestling D, DOA2, Densha de Go 2, F355 Challenge and Shutokou Battle (Tokyo Extreme Racer) 1 and 2. Those were the mf days.

[andrew_F-91]

Border Down does indeed look amazing on a CRT VGA Monitor. I definitely think it's right there with Ikaruga and Under Defeat as some of the best looking on the platform (those stage one reflections in the water in Under Defeat are just beyond belief for the time of release and hardware though I'm more partial to BD or Strania for that matter from a purely game perspective).

https://twitter.com/AndrewTorriente/sta ... 09/photo/1

Also the Sega Scalers look so good, Night Striker as well. Cannon Spike looks really great as well. It looks best on a crt but scales up to higher resolutions really well.

[Randorama]

A final boss (who looks like Cobra Command's Serpentor) who goes by the name BM

I was in college, I needed the money!

...so you volunteered as a Cobra Command's top honcho, final boss, or both?

[BulletMagnet]

Since I was a minor at the time the case has been sealed.

[chempop]

Guardian Heroes was one of my favorite Saturn games.

The US boxart though... yikes.

Spoiler

[Steamflogger Boss]

The golden age of making glorious Japanese box art look like trash.

It did go the other way too. Generally the country where the game originated has the better case art.

[BrianC]

I found Golden Axe II to be one of the rare cases where the western art is actually better.

SMS US/EU is one of the more infamous cases of horrible box art for early games. Some artwork looks almost like children's drawings. One of the stranger cases is the cartoon art for the JP/EU Captain Silver. It's not poorly drawn, but the the main character is for some reason wearing a turban when he has blond hair in game. The artwork for the cut down US version is surprisingly well done and fits the game better.

For some reason, Sega often licensed their games out to other publishers, even on their own systems, which often results in inferior box art. Gain Ground is one of those cases. Renovation published it in the US with artwork more fitting for an X-Men comic than the actual game. The EU version was published by Sega and uses the artwork from the JP version. Oddly enough, it's also one of those games with multiple region versions on the same cart and the JP version has the Renovation copyright info when played on a US system.

[Specineff]

For some reason, Sega often licensed their games out to other publishers, even on their own systems, which often results in inferior box art.

Turbo Grafx Fantasy Zone. Bruh...

[Sengoku Strider]

I traded in my Dreamcast for an Xbox back in the day (I was broke and couldn't afford to stay current with gaming without trading old stuff in). For years I've had a good thing going - I absolutely lived the DC experience from 9/9/99 until fall 2002 when there was just nothing much left to play. It was the system that made me a serious Sega fan (nice timing, guys). Because I was so deeply into it, I never had much desire to go back to it. I felt sated by my experience with it, and many of my favourites like Rez & KoF '98 moved on with me to other platforms if I got thirsty anyway.

But now this thread is ruining that.

It's funny seeing the winds change, because during the DC's lifespan it was always Saturn die hards saying the DC didn't live up to it. And since much of the Dreamcast's good stuff got ported, the Saturn remained the collector's system, getting the nod over the DC for its shmup, 2D & fighting game libraries. But I guess years of praise for the DC's creativity has shifted the conversation a bit.

And yeah, Le Mans was a total hidden gem, I sat & played through the full 24 hour race. Alongside Daytona 2001 it is the game I think of when I think of Dreamcast racers, and I think of the Dreamcast as that genre's peak. Metropolis Street Racer was another excellent must-have.

It was actually seeing how badly the PS1 butchered R4's gorgeous art design that convinced me to upgrade to the Dreamcast, even though I'd never owned a Sega system (and had bloodied myself in the schoolyard console wars heartily for the other side). The 32-bit era (at least in the West) was such a step back from the 16-bit days, I just couldn't stand it anymore. And the DC delivered. I've owned just about every version of Daytona, and I've personally found the differences a bit overblown. That DC version was great fun. When I finally got the original Saturn version (as well as CCE) years later I didn't get what the fuss was about. Sega Rally 2 was also a joy, but man it was hard. There was a certain point in the game that I couldn't get past even though I seemed to be running a flawless race.

=================

But that's neither here nor there, as I just pulled the trigger on another import Saturn. I have one with a pile of games sitting somewhere in a basement in rural Japan that I'll probably never see again, so I just bit the bullet & jumped back in. For me, along with the PC Engine CD, the Saturn was always the one with the mystique. It had all those inaccessible legendary imports that you could only see glimpses of in Gamefan. They were way too expensive to import (for me at least) and I couldn't read them anyway.

But the import Saturn library was always the one that the people who really knew games - at least the hand drawn sprite-based Japanese ones I loved - spoke of in reverent tones. What was a Dodonpachi and why was it important, and how the heck did all these people even know about it? Was the dpad really that much better than everything else? (Pretty much, yeah). Why did Radiant Silvergun cost as much as a console? It was the Gunstar guys?? Man, wish I could check it out. Those pixel-perfect fighters that could satisfy the most anal of graphics whores? I barely even understood what aspect ratio meant, but it sounded important. And all that anime stuff, at a time when it was still relatively rare in the West, looked so enticing (only later would I learn how much trash it involved). So many experiences we just couldn't get here, where hyper-conservative publishers for years assumed we couldn't read, only wanted hyper-macho machosity, and anything with a female protagonist or bright colours was thoroughly out of the question. And of course, anything 2D looked old and was inherently of lesser value. "You paid money for that? Metal Gear Solid is like looking at a movie!"

Anyway.

Years later now that I can finally actually read the games, diving into the import stuff is paradise because so much of it is is absurdly cheap. Like, classic rpgs & fighters in perfect condition for $3 cheap. Outside of the notable rarities that cost a car payment, the Saturn seems an incredible system to collect for.

I've got:

Dodonpachi
Rockman 8
Snatcher
Samurai Shodown RPG
Magical Drop 2
Sakura Wars Hanagumi Columns
Fighters Megamix
Devil Summoner: Soul Hackers
Hang On GP '95
Mobile Suit Gundam: Giren's Ambition
Macross: Do You Remember Love?
1st Gen Saturn Console complete w/ box

...heading my way for $265 USD.

And there are mountains of things I can't wait to check out. My one fear is that the Poly Mega or similar hardware takes off, everyone realizes they can suddenly play physical import games with English patches, and the prices of all this stuff starts to go up. But the opposite is more likely, the focus switches to Gamecube & PS2 stuff, then PS360 as people who had that stuff as kids stumble into disposable income, and ancient loadfest 90s stuff looks less appealing.

[Hornet]

And yeah, Le Mans was a total hidden gem, I sat & played through the full 24 hour race. Alongside Daytona 2001 it is the game I think of when I think of Dreamcast racers, and I think of the Dreamcast as that genre's peak. Metropolis Street Racer was another excellent must-have.

Very underrated version of Daytona 1 IMO.

Mastering the game and driving in Sea-Side Street Galaxy (the expert course) with the Falcon car is pure bliss.

[cj iwakura]

My Saturn is a tank, it'll probably outlive the cosmic death of the universe.
Dragon Force, Albert Odyssey, and Blazing Heroes/Mystaria top my list. (The game so nice, they named it twice)

Also I burnt a copy of Shining the Holy Ark, I need a nice straightforward dungeon crawler in my life.

Play Shining in the Darkness instead, it's a better game.

Debatable, but StHA is a very slooow game(and much harder).

[cave hermit]

Been on a Turrican kick lately, been playing Gunlord X on the Switch, Mega Turrican and Ultracore on the MiSTer. The latter 2 made me think, what other good euro/amiga style games are there on the mega drive?

[cave hermit]

So, why didn't the genesis/mega drive ever really pick up much traction in Japan? I find it kind of surprising given Mega Drive was by far more arcade like than Super Famicom, but maybe that's the thing, Super Famicom was more focused on stuff like RPGs, and maybe there was kind of a shift in nationwide genre preference. I don't really know, just talking out of my ass, but anyone else here have any opinions?

[Udderdude]

Been on a Turrican kick lately, been playing Gunlord X on the Switch, Mega Turrican and Ultracore on the MiSTer. The latter 2 made me think, what other good euro/amiga style games are there on the mega drive?

Addams Family
Mr. Nutz
Mr. Nutz - Hoppin' Mad (Prototype)
Misadventures of Flink
Gods
Soldiers of Fortune (aka Chaos Engine)
Power Drive
Mega SWIV

[Marc]

Most of those are horribly average at best.... The Chaos Engine doesn't belong in that list, superb game.

[Sengoku Strider]

So, why didn't the genesis/mega drive ever really pick up much traction in Japan? I find it kind of surprising given Mega Drive was by far more arcade like than Super Famicom, but maybe that's the thing, Super Famicom was more focused on stuff like RPGs, and maybe there was kind of a shift in nationwide genre preference. I don't really know, just talking out of my ass, but anyone else here have any opinions?

The biggest thing is that Sonic never took off there, the Genesis' story would have been a lot different if North America didn't take to him. There also wasn't an equivalent sports culture for them to capitalize off of.

But I think it's important to recognize that in Japan, the Mega Drive launched as Sega's 4th console in 5 years, and none of them had set the world on fire, so it wasn't super highly anticipated. We know well in the West how the too many meh consoles in too many years thing doomed them in the late 90s. As for the arcade ports...I don't know what would have been involved in doing it in 1988 when it came out, but they suffered from not having any kind of sprite scaling. The super scalers were a huge chunk of Sega's relevant arcade hits, and the Mega Drive just couldn't pull them off. It only launched with two titles, Space Harrier II & Super Thunderblade, and they both ran poorly.

The Mega Drive's first year was also a ghost town. This is what it looked like:

Oct '88:

Space Harrier II
Super Thunderblade

Nov '88:

Altered Beast

Dec '88:

Osomatsu-kun

Jan '89:

Literally nothing.

Feb '89:

Alex Kidd in the Atrocious Hit Detection Castle

Mar '89:

Phantasy Star II - after 6 months, finally an actual reason to own this thing.

Apr '89:

Tetris - almost immediately pulled off shelves after they found out they didn't have the home console license for it.
Super League Baseball
Super Daisenryaku

May '89:

Nothing again.

June '89:

Thunder Force II

July '89:

Fist of the North Star (AKA Last Battle)
World Championship Soccer (AKA World Cup Italia '90)

August '89:

Ghouls n' Ghosts

September '89:

Naomichi Ozaki Super Masters golf


....So, not exactly off to a roaring start. 13 games in 12 months, plus one pulled from shelves due to lawyer attack. Of those 13 games, 3, maybe 4 of them are good. 5 if you're into golf. Absolutely zero third party games (Sega had to license, develop & publish Ghouls n' Ghosts themselves with absolutely no help from Capcom).

If you were a Japanese consumer, would you see any reason to pay up for this thing when the PC-Engine had more support, its own version of Space Harrier, a near-arcade R-Type which was a bigger hit than anything Sega had, and the CD add-on already on shelves? And when the Famicom was in its full Mario 3, Dragon Quest III causing a panic by making kids skip school glory?

To be fair, Sega's December '89 lineup was solid (Super Shinobi, Golden Axe, Tatsujin, Herzog Zwei), and the library filled out over the course of 1990, with Strider Hiryū hitting in September. But this didn't matter much, because from fall '89 on everyone knew the Super Famicom was coming and magazines were full of screenshots looking better than the Mega Drive stuff. SFC launched in November 1990 with Super Mario World, a bigger title than anything Sega had. Final Fantasy IV landed 8 months later. Dragon Quest V the year after that, and Sega couldn't get back up off the mat.

But back to the arcade question, Nintendo had Konami, Capcom & Taito's best stuff pretty much locked up. But most importantly, Street Fighter II hit home in the summer of '92, which basically sealed the debate on who had the arcade games that really mattered. Even if the Genesis had the better processor for action games, it just didn't have the IP it needed early on. The inferior port of Street Fighter II' didn't help their case in any way on that front.