shmups.system11.org

Count me in as a convert of the short throw mod.

QCF has never been easier for me. Part of the reason I gravitated to charge characters in the first place.

Contrastingly, I found the shorter throw on the LS-40 more beneficial for Potemkin's 6k loops (which require multiple quick charges in a row).

Very curious about trying other Semitsu levers.

Very great seimitsu ls-40

LS-58 has less tension than the LS-56. Also exactly what plate are you referring to because the LS-56 comes with the correct plate to mount in a modern stick:

https://www.focusattack.com/seimitsu-ls ... -ms-plate/

e: unless you're talking about the non-harness LS-56

https://www.focusattack.com/seimitsu-ls ... -vf-plate/

e2: pic to show how LS-56 is mounted in a modern HRAP:



With an LS-32 you use the S plate due to the shorter shaft, so it sits flush against the case:



The LS-58 has the same shaft length as a LS-56, using it with an S plate is for cabs with thick control panels, it ends up too tall on something like an HRAP

Oh snap, They come with the flat plate now? Cool. .

Yeah the spring is looser but it’s really not that noticeable. Like I said, “the benefits” of a 56, like the same base and shaft length but with different mounting plates. It’s pretty much the same stick.
Throw an octo-gate on it and it’s shmup-heavenly.

An octo gate for shmups? Why do you think that is better?

Serious question btw. I'm not a fan of octo gates for shmups, as I find hitting the corner is much easier on a square gate.

Less “slide” from cross directions to the diagonals. For me it’s nice to have the notches for Up/Down/Left/Right rather than a flat restriction. YMMV

The LS-56-01 has always come with the MS plate. The benefit of the 56 is that it's the tightest stock Japanese stick. The 58 doesn't really feel the same (it only looks the same), so I feel like it loses the benefit. What exact mounting plate are you talking about? Octo gates a weird as hell with STG

Never played GG, I wonder if what you're describing is similar to charge partitioning in 3rd Strike?

Nah, it's different. Charges in GG are usually quite short compared to Capcom's 2 seconds. The 6k loops require between 2 to 4 four charges in a row. You can see it here --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgCel6UFRw0 That wall stick combo are the 6k loops.

There's a 3 frame window between each charge, which includes the time in moving the stick from forward to back, so the shorter throw is helpful. It's very difficult

Wow. Yeah 3 frames is not a lot for repeated charges. Charge partitioning is far more forgiving.

But yeah, short throw is fucking boss.

I use Seimitsu LS-32 sticks in all the Taito cabs and also on my arcade stick. Never tried something else, so i have no clue if there's something better. Is there a review between all the Seimitsu sticks somewhere?

There's this if it's any help



I use an ls-32 in all my sticks. I've tried lots of others but I always seem to play best with the 32 so I just stick with that.

If it means anything LS-32 was by far the most common stick for the era of arcade STGs mostly played here, so if you care about authenticity or anything like that it's a good bet the games were designed and tested with LS-32s. Just about every Japanese supergun also used LS-32s until Sigma made a Raijin with JLFs way later. Most popular candy cabs before the late 90's or early 2000s came with LS-32s standard

You’re being oddly confrontational. It has the same bases, and the same gates fit it. It’s practically the same minus the spring tension.

Also when I bought mine it didn’t come with the MS plates.

Sorry if it came off like that, was just trying to figure out what you were talking about. The whole point of the LS-56 to most people is the spring tension, I own a 58 and 56 and they feel very different. It's easy to get whatever plate you need for a few bucks

It’s also very easy to get a different spring for a few pennies.

Also, I had to do a double-blink about your octo-hate comment. octo’s on STG are not that big of a stretch when you consider square gates weren’t a thing till the late 80’s, early 90’s.
Circular restritors (no notches) were very common in old cabinets back then, leaf switches as well. Those of us who grew up in those days of the arcades got used to the circle restriction of the old Wico leafs, or Euro Sticks. The octo-gate is just a extension of the circular gates. The square gate is complete departure from the old joysticks, mainly introduced during the pinnacle fighting game period when conversions cabinets were rampant and abundant. My theory to why the square gate was introduced ties to fighting games in the 90’s when relying on crouch blocking, and jumping diagonals needed to be easy to hit.
For STGs you rely on all directions of input to be precise, and without any nebulousness. Square gates require you to feel the switch actuation for the cross-directions, and octos help you in a more physical way by defining all 8 directions with notches/indents.

For the record, I use square gates for fighting games, but i switch to octo’s for STG’s.
It doesn’t help me get better at those games, it just allows me to play comfortably. Like I said earlier: YMMV.

I guess the type of shmup may be a factor too. For example, with bullet hell, tap dodging (thus inputting a direction and returning to neutral) maybe more appropriate at times and a square gate might be better suited for this. But as you say, it's all personal preference at the end of the day.

Nah man Japanese sticks have had square gates for as long as games needed 8 direction movement, Japanese arcade games were never designed with American or euro style sticks in mind. The only reason US arcades stuck with those clunky Happ (etc) sticks is because people here like to trash things and the western style sticks hold up a lot better to serious abuse. Western style sticks are also less precise and to US arcade operators that's a plus, the sooner you die the better. I played in arcades a ton back in the day and miss them but one thing I don't miss is crappy US controls and cabs you have to stand at uncomfortably, shit's designed to wear you out

e:



Yeah but then you're turning the stick into a LS-56? The whole point was that you said the LS-58 is the same as a LS-56, I was just saying it's not the same, the primary difference being a softer spring. If you're gonna change the spring just get a 56 in the first place? There are different mounting plates designed for a particular stick and different places sell sticks with different plates, changing the mounting plate doesn't change the model of the stick itself.

Nah man, this is absolutely untrue.

Games like Xevious, Zaxxon, Gyruss all famous Japanese games of the early '80s, all using 8-way joysticks, all built with circle restriction. Even the manuals refer to the joysticks and their parts (including part illustration of the joystick assemblies).

Gyruss used a monroe, short shaft w/ long actuation 8-way, leaf switches, circle gate. I've owned one when I first bought my PCB. Installed it, used it a few times, went back to the LS-58. *edit: Actually at that time I had a JLW with circle restrictor that I used for quite sometime till I changed to a 56, then eventually my 58.

Zaxxon has a flight stick built by Sega/Gremlin, had circle restriction, and even utilized microswitches which was pretty early for joysticks to use back then.

Even Xevious, one of the grandfathers of all STG's, has installed Wico leaf-switch circle restriction in their original cabinets.

And no one is talking about Happs joysticks here. Happs are budget joysticks that the industry clamored onto when conversion cabinets became the craze with operators, and changing a game was meant to be as financially painless as possible. They don't even hold a candle to the quality of the old Wico leaf sticks.


Again, absolutely no truth to this as well. It also shows you were probably 90's arcade player, as Happs weren't even around till the late 80's when the resurgence of the arcade industry boomed again.
North American Arcade Operators jumped on the Happs bandwagon because it was a cheap joystick to use in a conversion cabinet when purchasing kits, especially in the 90's when practically every cabinet was being converted.

Also I've seen people wail on Japanese sticks and they keep going and going, they aren't less sturdy than "crappy US controls". Japanese sticks can withstand the same, if not more of a beating than Happs sticks. In fact, their mounting plates being made of metal helps that a lot.

And lets also not forget that circle restrictors on Japanese parts are not uncommon. The LS-32 is built with a circle gate stock, and a square gate is attached to it. But unlike the Sanwa sticks, you can actually use the LS-32 without a gate for circular restriction. I've had LS-32's installed on some Candy Cabinets shipped from Japan like this, and it was always a pain because you'd have to order the plastic restrictors when wanting to restore a panel or re-sell the sticks.

Again you're talking about their US/export stuff. Either way, going back that far is really reaching. Sure people in ancient times did things as best as they could until new technology came along. In your last post you said square gates were invented for fighting games. That's straight up false dude, they were around for at least most of the 80's.

Regarding happ stuff, I played arcade games in the late 80's through the early 2000's. Yes, I remember the circle gate balltops on cabs (including plenty of conversions). I didn't care for them, but yeah they were better than the Happ stuff. The relative fragility of Japanese sticks is due to the switches getting blown out faster, and the ease of taking the balltop etc. They both stand up well to hard play but the Happ is better against outright vandalism (which is the only thing the Happ is better at)

e: when you take off all the gates of the LS-32 you're left with a circle on the bottom plate (a circle is easy and cheap to machine in a piece of metal), but if you use the stick like that you're rubbing the plastic actuator right against the metal edge of the bottom plate. I get the feeling your parts came that way because operators or sellers stripped them and kept the parts, unless your actuators were all fucked up

Reaching? I’m talking about the progression of this genre and as an example I used the grandfathers of the genre. But you can go all the way up to the late 80’s games and still find games using these parts.

Some games still benefit from using the original controls they were designed for. A lot of the earlier toaplan games for example where sweeping movements were more useful than tap dodging like you see in bullet-hells.


I mentioned that was only my theory to why it got popular. Not the exact reason.


Again this is wrong. Happ sticks we’re almost always stocked with cherry switches, most Japanese sticks were shipped higher grade Omron switches that could easily outlast the cherry’s.

Now Japanese pushbuttons were more fragile than the US counterparts. Happ buttons also used the same cherry switches, whereas the Japanese buttons were equipped with much more fragile tiny switches that would fail often.


Yup, I would almost always have to order the actuator replacements as well. But they do work that way too.
The thing is you can order a circle gate add-on for LS-32’s, I guess ops were looking for the quick fix.

In any case, I grow tired of this argument, and there is only so much information I can rely to people that don’t want to hear it .

Regardless, it’s all up to preference anyway. But to say one person’s preference is weird is not only narrow minded and ignorant, but it’s just downright rude.

You keep saying stuff like "early toaplan games were deigned for circle gates", but the thing is just because the cabs in the US or the west had those sticks doesn't mean that's what they were using in Japan, where the games were made. That's my main point that you seem to be missing, that in Japan sticks with square gates have been used with these games for a very long time. And it's totally cool if you played the games here with the US sticks and got used to it and feel comfortable with that. Saying something is weird to me is just an opinion and not meant to be some kind of brutal insult, why get sensitive about it?

Please provide proof of Japanese cabinets that used square gate Japanese sticks for early STG’s prior to the late 80’s resurgence. Early Taito, Toaplan, Irem games?

I'm going by playing ancient cocktails and candy cabs in Japanese arcades (sticks and buttons games in Japan didn't really do the whole dedicated cab thing, ever). Old higher end Japanese arcade style sticks for consoles like the Famicom or MSX all used square gates.




Used both of these at BEEP in akiba (the ASCII and Pasoko)

If you want to see for yourself visit this place: http://gaming.moe/?p=1315

I mean, they could have replaced all the sticks with modern ones but it sure didn't feel like it, places like this are all about authenticity

None of those older Taito wood cocktails had 8-way games back in those days. Let alone, the joysticks in those cabinets were all leaf-switch lever-type sticks. Mostly for 2 and 4-way titles. Playing a 8-way title on a joystick that is mounted on the sides like that would give you carpel tunnel pretty quickly.

The fiberglass/gelcoat Candy Cabinets weren't released into Japan till the late 80's. (I'm sorry, with all due respect, you're really showing your lack of knowledge for the arcade industry prior to the "90's era").

The Tekhan style cabinets (the wooden candy cabinet look-a-like) also had leaf-switched lever-type sticks.
I know that for a fact because I was once given the opportunity to purchase a couple Tekhan style sit-down cabinet a few years ago. After checking them out and assessing how much work it was to restore them, plus update the Control Panel for modern parts (either by bondo filling and drilling new mounting holes, or re-cutting new metal panels), I decided not to do it. I regret it now because not only are they rare, it would have made for really nice smaller cabinets next to my New Astro City cabs once all the hard work was complete.


Are you completely forgetting about Nintendo and Namco cabinets that were dedicated in Japan back in the day?
And look at a Japanese Puckman or Galaxian. Wooden cabinets. Dedicated. In Japan.

*Edit: You could peruse the Arcade Flyer Archive and find plenty of Japan only flyers that feature dedicated stand-up cabinets that were available to that region.
Here's one example, but there are many others.



Sure, home products had the smaller japanese parts. Of course! But we're not talking about home consumer products here, we're talking about commercial arcade games.



Yup, the 8-way games in some of those older cabinets were not of the same era. That and the joysticks were definitely replaced with modern parts, you can easily tell by the Control Panels being reproductions AND the joystick shaft is higher mounted than the standard mounts.

Yeah, anyway that was the last reply to you. With respect, you clearly don't know what you're talking about when it comes to the older era of arcades. Perhaps your knowledge is based on the 90's era mainly, which is nothing wrong with that. But it's good to know what happened before that time, because we wouldn't have the games we do today without those grandfathers of each genre.

Yeah I'm clearly talking about the two modern fiberglass cabs in that retro arcade, and the 2 and 4 way games, cause I'm retarded! . You call me rude for saying the word "weird" but like everything you write has this smug "I was around in the 80's" vibe like I've never played a cocktail cab or old machines. Please prove anything you're saying regarding the Japanese arcade industry. Yeah there were a small amount of dedicated Japanese cabs waaay back in the day. Like you said Puckman and Galaxian era. But for most of the 80's this stuff was not in dedicated cabs in Japan. Please prove to me that square gates were not a thing in Japan in the 80's for the generic cabs that most STG were in, actually really interested in this now.

If I'm playing on the 360 or the PC, I'm using my Hyper Stick Pro Otomedius ver (JLF TM 8T SK GT B) and if I'm playing on my supergun or any of the Neo Geo hardware then I'm using the classic Neo sticks. I have numerous other random sticks for various other consoles, but the first ones mentioned are easily the two I use the most.

When they're in good shape these are pretty nice, made by ASCII. I use similar sticks for Famicom and X68000, they're a bit tighter than the Neo ones though with a shorter throw. Really nice for STG:



I have a few Micomsoft XE-1 sticks for PCE and Sega/9pin but I think these ASCII Stick II Turbos are the king of the small older console arcade style sticks. Though I got this stuff a long time ago and wouldn't pay what any of them go for now, kinda want to sell them all and just build some universal thing out of real arcade parts and one of those empty stick cases.

only one stick and its for the ps4 a cheap hori i paid 30 for used
gonna get an agetec for my dreamcast I miss having one
need one for saturn
and hopefully eventually will build a mame cab or get a neo geo mvs setup