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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:06 am 


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quash wrote:
Great, wonderful. But my point is that if you were to re-balance Demon's Souls with a Dark Souls type of system (but obviously one that's more balanced) it would be a superior game.


Yes, I know. I've acknowledge you on this point several times!

I would say that the ideal game would take some points from Bloodborne as well. The addition of charge-able heavy attacks with universal armor/poise breaking capabilities for all weapons (light,normal, and heavy) was genius and adds even more to the game.

quash wrote:
As it stands, it's basically a proof of concept that needs a lot of gaps filled in to be great, let alone good.


But here is one of those subjective issues we'll have to disagree on. For me, the heavy weapons/poise issue is a very minor one that doesn't effect my playstyle (or other playstyles I sometimes go for, ie magic, ranged, tankier, etc.) that only applies to a very specific part of the game. For me, it's easily brushed aside and forgotten in favor of all the things the game does good to great.

Some people are fine with minor issues in an STG (ie "the third stage is boring, I can't enjoy the game" vs "eh it's not so boring to me, I like it, and I like the rest of the game a lot so it's fine to me"), and it often comes down to a matter of taste. For me, Demon's Souls is a bit rough around the edges, but I personally find it a great game regardless.


Also, I apologize for blowing my top and getting personal on the last page. I was a bit frustrated with the flippant dismissal after keeping this going for so long (plus, I tend to have less patience for forums when I'm currently stressed out IRL). But like I said, I don't hold grudges. Hopefully next time we meet in discussion, it can be cordial.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:13 am 


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quash wrote:
I really hope any staff members watching this thread are paying attention to how many times I've attacked someone and how many times I've offered to drop this line of discussion entirely. Most of you made it very clear from the beginning that you weren't interested in discussion at all: "Go back to Youtube....
I'm not trying to play the victim, because I know damn well that people were going to get upset at what I said


Oh, playing tattletale are we? That's rich.

quash wrote:
Dark Souls isn't that challenging, lol. People have simply forgotten how to play games.


From his first post, Dear Quashyboy establishes his tone with a youtube-tier disrespectful comment. A little dig at anyone who ever found the game challenging, many of whom are forum members.
I very much doubt you breezed through Ds1 on your fist attempt without dying, Quash. Even after the first 3 hours or whatever BS you said about learning curve.
The only reason I ever said 'challenging' was to explain why the series enjoyed some mainstream appeal. Simply because compared to usual AAA tripe that gamers are bludgeoned with, DS is challenging. That's really not up for debate. I don't give a flying fuck about the "Dark souls isn't hard lol" discussion. It's belongs in the cesspool of youtube comments (along with 'lol'), so I responded appropriately.
It's a shame you willingly misinterpreted that as a springboard to dive into your tidal wave of BS.

"I know damn well people were going to get upset at what I said." Interesting that this appears to have been your intention all along.

quash wrote:
I don't know why I ever gave you another chance. Just as it seems like maybe you're willing to have a semi-intelligent discussion, you devolve into false equivalencies and missing the point as usual.

Seriously? 'Another chance'? Who the hell do you think you are? Grooky is one of the more reasoned posters on this forum, the fact that your insults have caused him to lose his patience is quite something.

quash wrote:
I never said nor hinted at Dark Souls and Ninja Gaiden being most similar to each other.


Oops! You're moving the goalposts there; but I don't mind pointing that out. 'most similar' hasn't been the focus. The obvious theme of your early conversation was 'NG>Souls'. Since then you've backpeddled in order to appear more reasonable.

Quote:
It's a notch above say Elder Scrolls, but definitely a notch below proper 3D action games. I would rather play Ninja Gaiden any day of the week.

Quote:
it basically took the 3D NG template for combat, slowed it down a bit and added stats

Quote:
when you can play other action games that are designed to be more challenging and fulfilling.

Quote:
the thing that made Dark Souls good (its combat) was built upon established conventions, and while you can trace some elements back to 3D Zelda, there is a huge missing link in between. Ninja Gaiden is that link.

>Implying the only worth in DS comes from NG influence.
Quote:
The long and short of it is that illiterates desperately look for something to cling on to so they can seem much more seasoned in a genre than they actually are, and the internet enables this en masse. For fighting games, it's Third Strike. For shooters, it's Ikaruga. And now, for 3D action games*, we have Dark Souls.


You have not simply been arguing 'all along' that NG had an influence on Souls; the basis of all your discussion is you throwing a tantrum because Souls gathered a huge fanbase that doesn't prostrate themselves in front of the Ninja Gaiden Altar. The only reason you argue the point of genre definitions is to remove the 'RPG' label and anything that might stand in the way of linking souls to your precious series. When that doesn't work, or your tantrum wasn't received well, you simply ignore counterarguments and cling to the simpler point of "NG was a major influence."

You ignored this point of mine:
'Most of From's library has small-fry enemies being deadly, small mistakes costing the player dearly. It's not unreasonable to suggest that these existing principles were applied to 3rd person movement.'
The point being it doesn't necessarily come from NG.

Essentially Quashy we'll never agree because all your points are predicated on your definition of what Dark Souls is: a 'stat based action game.' What's funny is I've never seen anyone else describe it as such. Let's keep to Action RPG shall we? The term the rest of the world is content to use. While nitpicking genre definitions sucks, I have to now as it's the foundation of all quashy's woes! =[

I argue that Souls isn't in the same genre as NG, Bayo or other character action games. They simply don't play alike.
Hell, Quash even tacitly admits it when responding to Immryr.
quash wrote:
Immryr wrote:
I really don't get where you're coming from though. ninja gaiden black is a fucking amazing game. but the combat is nothing like souls combat, other than the fact that regular enemies can be deadly if you're careless.


But is this not the most important aspect of Dark Souls? Isn't this what kept people playing the game more than anything else?

He says regular enemies being deadly is the most important aspect, not the mechanics or feel of combat itself.

Once again: regular enemies hitting hard and higher difficulty are hallmarks of FromSoft.
Every problem comes from viewing Souls as an action game. If you're looking for NG everywhere; if you're looking for that same combat experience, don't be disappointed when you don't find it.
There may have been some NG influence, but the more quash posts, the more I doubt it.
FFS We haven't even touched on the Stamina bar, and why it changes almost everything about Souls gameplay. I don't remember seeing one in NG.

We can go in circles all year if you want mate, and send this thread I used to enjoy straight to locksville. I'd rather we didn't, though. The real issue begins and ends with your attitude; the precedent you set when you entered the thread.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:39 am 


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Blinge wrote:
I argue that Souls isn't in the same genre as NG, Bayo or other character action games. They simply don't play alike.
Hell, Quash even tacitly admits it when responding to Immryr.
quash wrote:
Immryr wrote:
I really don't get where you're coming from though. ninja gaiden black is a fucking amazing game. but the combat is nothing like souls combat, other than the fact that regular enemies can be deadly if you're careless.


But is this not the most important aspect of Dark Souls? Isn't this what kept people playing the game more than anything else?

He says regular enemies being deadly is the most important aspect, not the mechanics or feel of combat itself.



not to mention any of the other qualities the games have, exploration, atmosphere, lore etc etc. yep the only reason people play the souls games Is cause the enemies can kill you. definitely. and, of course, they stole this idea from ninja gaiden!!


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:05 pm 


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Blinge wrote:
Oh, playing tattletale are we? That's rich.


No, I'm just preemptively pointing out how rude you all have been before you point the finger at me as being the troll. Before the previous page, I was nothing but respectful towards everyone, if not a bit blunt.

Quote:
From his first post, Dear Quashyboy establishes his tone with a youtube-tier disrespectful comment. A little dig at anyone who ever found the game challenging, many of whom are forum members.


I thought that argument wasn't applicable to this forum. IS THIS BACKPEDALING?

Quote:
I very much doubt you breezed through Ds1 on your fist attempt without dying, Quash. Even after the first 3 hours or whatever BS you said about learning curve.


Sure, I died on my first play through of DS. I die in a lot of games, particularly when I don't use the internet as a way to spoil the surprises the game developers put in for me to enjoy. That doesn't mean that a game is necessarily hard or deep. This is a very foolish line of thought for a number of reasons.

Quote:
The only reason I ever said 'challenging' was to explain why the series enjoyed some mainstream appeal.


I made a comment that was meant to open the discussion as to why this "mainstream appeal" as you put it is self destructive, but then we got sidetracked on other things.

Quote:
'Another chance'? Who the hell do you think you are?


I do not care about reputation, neither of others nor myself. He had made a series of poor arguments in another thread, which I was not only wiling to overlook but entirely disregard in this discussion until he started bringing in other previous discussions.

Quote:
You're moving the goalposts there; but I don't mind pointing that out. 'most similar' hasn't been the focus.


Yep, and that's exactly why I said that, to remind everyone. Glad we're all on the same page here.

Quote:
The obvious theme of your early conversation was 'NG>Souls'. Since then you've backpeddled in order to appear more reasonable.


I haven't backpedaled an inch. Every last one of my statements in this thread is compatible with each other. Stop reaching, you're embarrassing yourself here.

Quote:
You have not simply been arguing 'all along' that NG had an influence on Souls; the basis of all your discussion is you throwing a tantrum because Souls gathered a huge fanbase that doesn't prostrate themselves in front of the Ninja Gaiden Altar.


Those are separate, but related points. I haven't explained in detail the issue around the internet creating false prophets, but I will at some point.

Quote:
The only reason you argue the point of genre definitions is to remove the 'RPG' label and anything that might stand in the way of linking souls to your precious series.


You act as if having a stamina bar and a few NPCs to talk to is enough to classify a game as an RPG. Unfortunately you are not alone in this, but that doesn't make you right.

Quote:
You ignored this point of mine:
'Most of From's library has small-fry enemies being deadly, small mistakes costing the player dearly. It's not unreasonable to suggest that these existing principles were applied to 3rd person movement.'
The point being it doesn't necessarily come from NG.


I didn't ignore it, I just addressed the more important issues. I don't see how you can argue that From has always made difficult games, when the most glaring examples of easy games they made were the Otogi series. Good games to be sure, but they were seriously lacking in regard to making the player learn how to defend against enemies to advance. You can argue to the hills that Souls is a "spiritual successor" to Kings Field, but the fact remains that the only non-mech 3D action games they made before Souls were the Otogi games.

Quote:
Essentially Quashy we'll never agree because all your points are predicated on your definition of what Dark Souls is: a 'stat based action game.'


Imagine that your first exposure to any Souls games were versions that completely hid all stats from you except for your health. Would you still call it an "action RPG"? I'm pretty sure you would default to action/adventure before RPG ever crossed your mind.

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What's funny is I've never seen anyone else describe it as such. Let's keep to Action RPG shall we? The term the rest of the world is content to use.


The rest of the world also sees STG as quarter munchers that offer a few hours of content at most. Perhaps you shouldn't be so concerned about what the rest of the world thinks and start figuring things out for yourself.

Quote:
He says regular enemies being deadly is the most important aspect, not the mechanics or feel of combat itself.


The two are innately related. What use is a combat engine if you don't have any decent enemies? To illustrate the point in a more extreme manner, what use is a combat engine if there are no enemies at all?

Quote:
Once again: regular enemies hitting hard and higher difficulty are hallmarks of FromSoft.


With the exception of the pre-Souls, non-mech 3D action games. Both of which came out before a certain 3D action game that established how to do these things right in 3D. Kinda makes you wonder...

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Every problem comes from viewing Souls as an action game. If you're looking for NG everywhere; if you're looking for that same combat experience, don't be disappointed when you don't find it.


I don't expect every game to be NG, nor is direct comparison between NG and Souls necessarily the most productive for a number of reasons. I do compare the premise of adding stats to a genre primarily balanced around skill vs keeping stats out of such genres, which is totally reasonable and productive. If you don't see the difference, I'm afraid we can't converse any longer.

Quote:
We can go in circles all year if you want mate, and send this thread I used to enjoy straight to locksville. I'd rather we didn't, though. The real issue begins and ends with your attitude; the precedent you set when you entered the thread.


What's funny is that this literally started as a troll thread. You turned it into your personal blog about From games, and proceeded to berate a guy who rightfully called out your nonsensical labeling of dungeon crawlers and action games as RPGs. It can only go up from there, friendo.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:11 pm 


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Immryr wrote:
yep the only reason people play the souls games Is cause the enemies can kill you. definitely.


I'm sorry I ever listened to the hordes of Dark Souls fans who filled every corner of gaming related media with praises of the game's difficulty. I mean it, too. I probably would've enjoyed the game more if I hadn't.

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and, of course, they stole this idea from ninja gaiden!!


Damn straight they did, they and everyone else who have made any decent 3D action games post 2004. The next time you play one that forces you to learn how to move and play defense, you should send Itagaki a thank you note on Facebook. He'll probably even respond to you!


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:54 pm 


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quash wrote:
I was nothing but respectful towards everyone, if not a bit blunt.

Nope. I don't know what your objective is here, really. Looks like you came in to dick wave, and aren't gonna stop any time soon.
quash wrote:
Quote:
From his first post, Dear Quashyboy establishes his tone with a youtube-tier disrespectful comment. A little dig at anyone who ever found the game challenging, many of whom are forum members.


I thought that argument wasn't applicable to this forum. IS THIS BACKPEDALING?

Looks like you're struggling to understand, or this is some pathetic attempt at a 'gotcha!'
What I said was: " 'zomg it's SO hard' doesn't really apply on a forum dedicated to shmups.."
Meaning the media hype about the game being 'the hardest ever' isn't relevant on this forum. There's a difference between "zomg SO hard" and 'challenging.' So don't take me out of context.

Try harder, son.

Quote:
Sure, I died on my first play through of DS. I die in a lot of games, particularly when I don't use the internet as a way to spoil the surprises the game developers put in for me to enjoy. That doesn't mean that a game is necessarily hard or deep. This is a very foolish line of thought for a number of reasons.

Yeah, that is a foolish line of thought. So why bring it up? That point has nothing to do with any of the conversation. If you want to sit and argue against your own points, do it elsewhere.

Also you're implying the only way to succeed at DS on a blind run is to use a guide? Or that the only possible way our great action hero quash could die in a souls game is if it's some sort of unfair trap. I suppose if you've been puffing up your own ego by saying the game's learning curve is done after 3 hours, then you would have to make excuses for any deaths afterwards.

Quote:
I made a comment that was meant to open the discussion as to why this "mainstream appeal" as you put it is self destructive, but then we got sidetracked on other things.

Yeah, your complaints about 'illiterates.'

We didn't get sidetracked, I informed you that no one cares. They probably still don't.

quash wrote:
Quote:
'Another chance'? Who the hell do you think you are?

I do not care about reputation, neither of others nor myself.


You do care, it's painfully obvious.

Quote:
I haven't backpedaled an inch. Every last one of my statements in this thread is compatible with each other. Stop reaching, you're embarrassing yourself here.

Haha, okay mate.
"Souls just ripped off NG combat & added stats."
to
"All I want is for people to accept there may have been some influence from NG :( "

Quote:
Those are separate, but related points. I haven't explained in detail the issue around the internet creating false prophets, but I will at some point.

Don't waste your time.

Quote:
You act as if having a stamina bar and a few NPCs to talk to is enough to classify a game as an RPG. Unfortunately you are not alone in this, but that doesn't make you right.

There's no hard and fast definition of what an Action-RPG is. I'll say again that it's just a functional, catch-all term.
C'mon on then, Mr. expert. Give us your definition of an RPG, outline some games that are true RPGs. I'd like examples that aren't 80's/early 90's PC games too.
After all, everyone must adhere to quashy's definitions, and not the wider gaming community's lexicon. :roll:

Quote:
You can argue to the hills that Souls is a "spiritual successor" to Kings Field

It is. From said as much in interviews..

Quote:
Imagine that your first exposure to any Souls games were versions that completely hid all stats from you except for your health. Would you still call it an "action RPG"? I'm pretty sure you would default to action/adventure before RPG ever crossed your mind.


This is ridiculous. You want me to engage in what-if's now? Souls doesn't hide your stats; they're an important part of the game.
Also Action/adventure is often listed as a different genre to the '3D Action' you keep jerking off over, which I've seen described as 'character action games' more often lately.

Quote:
Perhaps you shouldn't be so concerned about what the rest of the world thinks and start figuring things out for yourself.

You mean change my definitions to the world according to quash.
Everything would work better then eh?

quash wrote:
Quote:
He says regular enemies being deadly is the most important aspect, not the mechanics or feel of combat itself.


The two are innately related. What use is a combat engine if you don't have any decent enemies? To illustrate the point in a more extreme manner, what use is a combat engine if there are no enemies at all?


Sidestepping. Useless questions.
You said deadly enemies are the most important aspect of souls.
Surely you admit that if NG 'may' have been an influence on the souls family tree, then it also may not have been.

There are tough enemies for most of King's field, Lost Kingdoms (slightly less so but I can elaborate), Armored core series. I'm not that familiar with others.
Suggesting that none of From's output could possibly be an influence on Souls, could possibly lead to 3D combat using the same design principles for enemies & worlds that they'd been working with for 10+ years is reaching.

You haven't shown me real evidence to suggest that NG was a more important influence than the above, or even present at all.
It's not an unreasonable theory, I'm just not convinced personally. I might've been more receptive if you weren't having a tantrum.

quash wrote:
Quote:
Every problem comes from viewing Souls as an action game. If you're looking for NG everywhere; if you're looking for that same combat experience, don't be disappointed when you don't find it.


I don't expect every game to be NG, nor is direct comparison between NG and Souls necessarily the most productive for a number of reasons. I do compare the premise of adding stats to a genre primarily balanced around skill vs keeping stats out of such genres, which is totally reasonable and productive. If you don't see the difference, I'm afraid we can't converse any longer.

Okay, yeah. Kindly stop the comparison then.. You opened that can of worms as soon as you arrived.
Oh! I don't see the difference! uh huh. looks like we have to stop conversing :|
what a fucking shame.

quash wrote:
I cleared NGB on Master Ninja years ago and it changed how I see 3D action games.

^it all boils down to that really.

Quote:
What's funny is that this literally started as a troll thread. You turned it into your personal blog about From games, and proceeded to berate a guy who rightfully called out your nonsensical labeling of dungeon crawlers and action games as RPGs. It can only go up from there, friendo.


Great Quash, soldier of justice, pointer of fingers, he who challenged Evil Blinge's use of genre terms. They'll be singing about him in the halls of System11 forever to come! He who cast down Blinge's personal blog about From games. How dare anybody want to share their game experiences or discuss which others they'd like to try by the same dev.
Thank god you arrived.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:04 pm 


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Immryr wrote:
*you've also said that they both force you to block and play defensively but I really disagree with this. in souls blocking is always the third best thing you can do when an enemy attacks you. it's always better to either parry or dodge, the only worse option than blocking is taking the hit.



:evil:
Oh screw that
This fucking attitude
Dexterity build elite race
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:34 pm 


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Can't most enemies in at least DeS be caught off guard by blocking IMMEDIATELY before their blow lands? (I.e. timing's where it's at rather than equipment or stats.) Sort of like EVERY attack in Onimusha can be turned into issen (projectiles and whathave you); it's just only as safe there as you are dexterous (or how slow given enemy is).
If they can, that's the whole point of blocking with a shield, I suppose. That's what Onimusha taught me to expect anyway.
Not that shields were used this way in real life from what I read (rather, they were to be destroyed in your stead; duelling Norses were allowed to use up to three etc.).
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:38 pm 


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qmish wrote:
Immryr wrote:
*you've also said that they both force you to block and play defensively but I really disagree with this. in souls blocking is always the third best thing you can do when an enemy attacks you. it's always better to either parry or dodge, the only worse option than blocking is taking the hit.



:evil:
Oh screw that
This fucking attitude
Dexterity build elite race


haha I'm not saying you have to run a dex build. I guess blocking with a great shield is fine if you like that sort of thing. personally even on a strength run I use a shield you can parry with or just two hand my weapon, but you can play however you like! that's one of the great things about souls games.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:59 pm 


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I love how Blinge's post is one part non-sequitirs and one part missing the point, as usual.

I'll spare everyone the line by line response because you're just going to give me some stupid response to it all, anyways. Instead, let's see if a short anecdote will help you all understand where I'm coming from, even just a little.

STORY TIME

The first time I played Dark Souls I was with a friend who had already cleared the game a few times. As I was creating my character, he told me what the stats were and how they impacted the game. After graciously thanking him for this, I then explicitly told my friend to give me no more pointers at all because I wanted to figure the game out for myself. He obliged, keeping his comments observational in nature without spoiling anything for me.

I started the game as a thief. I don't remember now how or if I modified my stats. I spent the first hour or so just trying to figure out how all the different weapons and armors worked. I had quickly figured out the merits of heavy armor, light armor, and even no armor at all. I liked the way the game put an emphasis on movement and keeping yourself in a good position where enemies had to come to you. The game was very intuitive in this regard for me because I had played several 3D action games in the past and was well seasoned in them by this point. I also liked the addition of sniper enemies and how the game gave you a bow and arrow to fight them with (kinda like another game ;)).

Fast forward a few hours and I was already past the flailing zombie area. I had mostly stuck with heavy armor and powered my way through most parts of the game like this. I know now that it's only an okay weapon, but at the time I could not have possibly asked for a better companion than the Uchigatana. It gave me the kind of firepower my reckless but calculated playstyle needed.

Around the end of this play session (about 5 hours in), I arrived at a boss called the Capra Demon. I stuck back at first to see what kind of attacks this guy threw out, and also to carefully pick off the enemies coming my way. As soon as I saw that staircase though, I knew it was there for a reason, so I worked my way up to get above this guy.

I landed a downward lunging strike on him, then got in a few hits before he could attack me. He did do quite a bit of damage, but if I timed my Estus right I could get all that health back and, thanks to my heavy armor, poise through the attack. I did this 3-4 times and beat him on my first try.

My friend, laughing hysterically through this, told me that he had never seen anyone use this kind of tactic against the Capra Demon, nor had he ever witnessed anyone beat him on their first try.

At this moment, two things became clear to me:

1. This game actually has a good amount of variety in playstyle, and it is not in spite of, but because of its stat based nature.

2. Much of this game's challenge comes from people not caring to think about how to use everything the game gives them.

This isn't meant to be bragging, just sharing how I came to these conclusions is all. Wanna know the first boss I legitimately got stuck on? The Moonlight Butterfly. That's right, the Moonlight fuckin' Butterfly, arguably the easiest boss in the game. I was so afraid of taking damage against him the first dozen or so times that I didn't think to just fight him with no armor so I could roll away from his attacks. I had already done this with other bosses before, but somehow I never thought that it would work against this guy. That was, until, I had already exhausted everything else I could think of and had no other choice.

So there you have it. It actually took me a long time to get around to beating Dark Souls; at the time I first started playing, Metal Gear Rising was just around the corner and I wasn't going to miss that for the world. That, and once I moved to Japan I was tremendously busy for the first two years and rarely played PC/console games. But even two years later, all I had ever needed to clear the game were the things I learned in that one night of play. The fundamentals of the game are not far off from any NG-inspired action game, you just have to learn how to use the stats to your advantage and be willing to try new things if your current tactics aren't working. It's rare that you can say that for any kind of stat based game, so whatever you do, don't misinterpret that as me bagging on the game. It is quite the opposite.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:21 pm 


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I have lost account of all vehicular games I'd played where differences between vehicles are detailed as numbers (whether you choose one of ready-made, or create your authorial one) and taking those into consideration is essential for meeting the game's requirements.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:24 pm 


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Racing games in general are a good example of that, yes. But before Souls there were very few if any (non-mech) 3D action games that you could say the same for.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:36 am 


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quash wrote:
...


Cool story bro. What is this, your personal blog?
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:46 am 


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I thought this thread is about NOT souls games of From as there are already two souls threads over there
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:47 am 


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So anyway, let's talk about how great Bloodborne is.

I feel like, despite the lower number of weapons, the weapons feel more unique and varied thanks to the more radical transformation their movesets undergo when transformed (aka 2-handing). Each one really feels very unique and fun to use.

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so rad

I also think the game has some of the best boss variety in the franchise. There are more bosses who's attacks can be interrupted mid swing, and even the "giant thing with hyper armor" type bosses feel a lot more varied due to some unique gimmicks, environmental hazards, etc.

I think I'd take Dark Souls for lore and world building, but Bloodborne for best gameplay overall, IMO.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:24 am 


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yeah, I think Bloodborne has become my favourite game in the series, which is quite a surprise to me. the combat does feel like a step up from the older games and on top of having two different move sets for each weapon the actual transformation attacks give you even more tools/options.

Dark Souls definitely does world building better, but the lore for both games is equally great for me. Bloodborne's is just more vague and veiled than DkS.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:49 pm 


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I think Bloodborne's story lacks the endless applicability and thematic free-interpretation that makes Souls universe so intriguing. As cool as the

Spoiler: show
Lovecraftian elements
are, they ironically make things less mysterious, lol. You already kinda know where things are headed once you know who the world is being drawn from...

In terms of atmosphere though, it's still a powerhouse. UCW (I'm abbreviating to avoid spoilers for some people) is the closest the series has ever come to being a true horror game, I think.

--

I actually spent a play session today trying to no-death as far as I could into it. My goal was to grab Ludwigs Holy Blade before signing out, but I died at BSB when it was at like 1hp left :(

No death running Souls games feels like a completely different experience. Heart poundingly exciting, even for random mob encounters. I love how much colder and more methodical you end up playing outside of combat too, picking through your items and carefully deciding your plan of attack. It's great.
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RegalSin wrote:
Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

Aeon Zenith - My STG.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:08 pm 


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my main issue with bloodborne is they over streamlined everything*. I really miss having merchants dotted around the world, the NPC quest lines aren't that interesting, and while I think the upgrade systems in DeS/DkS are a bit too convoluted BB went too far the other way.

totally agree with you on no death runs, although I tend to just run past all of the mobs when doing them. basically I do it like a crappy speed runner. it definitely adds new excitement after you know the game inside out.


*I actually don't like the gem system either, but as I don't care about pvp I can just ignore the idea of farming the chalice dungeons for max gems.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:18 pm 


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I fight the mobs to get as strong as possible for the boss fights. Not sure how safe to skip some places in BB are though, I tried it once and nearly got corner wrecked lol.

And yeah, the lack of a dedicated defensive stat feels a bit weird. I actually hadn't noticed the lack of merchant's, but I do see what you mean. I guess it kind of fits in with the games atmosphere and theme though. You ain't findin' no living souls outside of the Cathedral after
Spoiler: show
the Blood Moon hits.
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RegalSin wrote:
Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

Aeon Zenith - My STG.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:38 pm 


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Even though From keeps the same basics in every game, I think it's unfortunate to see fans request similar elements from previous iterations. "Dark Souls III is like a mix of Demon's Souls and Bloodborne. That's so cool!" and comments like that make me think From are like a more hardcore version of Ubisoft with their annual Assassin's Creed franchise. The level design and the souls/blood echoes make the main experience underwhelming at this point in my opinion. Yeah the Souls games are very well made and the gameplay is great but From must move on.

I will probably preorder Dark Souls III though lol.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:58 pm 


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Bloodborne felt super fresh to me, I wouldn't mind a sequel of that.
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RegalSin wrote:
Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

Aeon Zenith - My STG.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:04 pm 


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Or Otogi 3.
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:20 pm 


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I agree that it's getting a bit much now. once a year is too much for any series imo. I've only recently started getting excited about dark souls 3, but I would definitely prefer if From changed their focus after this and gave us all a breather. ideally I'd like them to just straight up come up with a new game, failing that another armored core would be great. then in a few years time...... Blame! Souls.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:45 pm 


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Speaking of no-death Bloodborne, my wife & I are still cracking at the No Hunter's Dream challenge.

http://www.twitch.tv/jumplust/v/50523844


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:29 pm 


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Well, to that I say:
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/dark-s ... 0-6432425/
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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:21 pm 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
Bloodborne felt super fresh to me, I wouldn't mind a sequel of that.

I understand the simplified RPG aspect was welcome but the combats were clearly dumbed down compared to Dark Souls. The stamina bar and the dashes affected the depth of the game in a bad way because you could abuse dodges, the stamina bar recovered too quickly and blood vials were too easy to use during fights. I played the whole game while attacking enemies mindlessly and it worked. I prefered when when each hit could make a difference in Dark Souls.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:19 am 


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DestroyTheCore wrote:
Squire Grooktook wrote:
Bloodborne felt super fresh to me, I wouldn't mind a sequel of that.

I understand the simplified RPG aspect was welcome but the combats were clearly dumbed down compared to Dark Souls. The stamina bar and the dashes affected the depth of the game in a bad way because you could abuse dodges, the stamina bar recovered too quickly and blood vials were too easy to use during fights. I played the whole game while attacking enemies mindlessly and it worked. I prefered when when each hit could make a difference in Dark Souls.


I thought the combat was a massive improvement. Particularly the heavy charge attacks, the trick weapons, the gunshot parrying (I like parries being easier but limited), and the addition of ranged weapons.

I can't say I share your experience otherwise. I never found dodges abusable, I still got hit a ton even with them. I honestly find that they change the game most by making it easier to flank enemies, cause enemy chains are still really tight and difficult to straight up i-frame through in my experience. I never had too lengthy a stamina bar but the longer and more agressive enemy chains made the stronger dashes feel balanced out too. Blood vials are not hard to use yeah, but I don't think they're supposed to be. You die real quick and blood vials are more extensions of your hp. It's more a risk/reward type thing where the game is asking if you if you have the balls to get a free recovery by attacking instead of blood vialing after you get hit. Vialing itself is not supposed to be the challenge, I think.

I had a helluva lot harder time then then just attacking mindlessly, I tell you. I mean, I'm trying to get better at the game right now (low/no death run), and I'm not finding spam dodge or spam attack to be very helpful at all. Panic mashing seems to be more a cause of death then anything, as per usual for the series (unless you're really high level?).

Given the slightly faster speed and the greater number of combat options, I honestly find it the best combat engine in the franchise. By far, even.
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RegalSin wrote:
Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:36 am 


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DestroyTheCore wrote:
Even though From keeps the same basics in every game, I think it's unfortunate to see fans request similar elements from previous iterations. "Dark Souls III is like a mix of Demon's Souls and Bloodborne. That's so cool!" and comments like that make me think From are like a more hardcore version of Ubisoft.


I was going to discuss this earlier, but things got sidetracked. In any case, I think it is a winning formula overall, but I would like to see From explore some new concepts, too.


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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:46 am 


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Great marketing:

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 Post subject: Re: From Software 'n such
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:25 am 


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Some Americans may remember back when Sega was giving away Dreamcasts as long as you signed up for their ISP. Sometimes, you just gotta roll the dice with these things.

And you'd be amazed how big American pop music is out here. They may have actually moved a few units this way.


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