From Software 'n such

[Sumez]

DS2 is the King's Field 3 of Dark Souls

[Marc]

If there's one game I wish I could wipe clean and play again like the first time it'd be Dark Souls 1.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I haven't found the thing that lets you craft Divine type weapons but I did see it in a loading screen and kinda clued in it on the text that it might be a possible solution. Something to explore at any rate!

Is it me or do the heads on characters look kinda small? I used Top-Heavy on character creation to get it looking more proportional (though I have a very thick neck whilst naked).

Crafting weapons is definitely the way to go early on. A) dead enemies can't hurt you, and B) how are you supposed to know what to craft if you keep finding new bits of fashion? The elite knight set is rad, made a brief foray into the forest, can't handle the golems yet so made a run to grab goodies and found the set, the helmet's quite rad.

Spoiler

do people in this thread even bother with spoiler tags lol

Visited the asylum again, murdered the black knights, got the dolly which presumably is used for a thing later, had to murder good buddy who wasn't much trouble due to his slow rolling, but feels bad having to murder him. ;w;

Met the Stray Demon on the way out (I'd made a right to go to the bonfire down the stairs initially), he's uh, yeah he's jank. It took several tries to figure out just where the hitbox is centered on his horizontal slam that somehow makes a red burst in front of him. Once you figure out you have to stay behind him the entire fight it's less of a nuisance, but it's quite a difference from Asylum Demon who's perfectly manageable in front. He's not that bad I guess once you figure out the gimmick, and if you go in with an appropriate weapon, but it took me a while to discover that my upgraded halberd's normal attack would just go right through his legs. Unless I free aimed it upward that is, but I'm not used to unlocking and locking onto enemies for this smoothly yet... Halberd +5 is still super stronk and one shotting lots of stuff, plus no issues hitting low enemies, and it even counts as a heavy weapon for skeletons, woot, but I could only hit the Stray Demon with it if I did the running overhead chop, or the super risky strong attack that has you spin2win.

Turns out Stray Demon takes huge chunks of damage from bleed though. I managed to pick up a Jagged Ghost Blade while making some trips underground in the ruins and it turns out that's an ideal way to slice him up! Its strong attack is considerably better than the scimitar's, and having bleed on it makes the short range well worth it.

He's a lot like the Capra Demon in that the fight's success is decided early on. If he manages to knock you down and catch you in the aoe burst at the start of the fight, it's really hard to get behind him. If you know the gimmick and get behind him quickly you can deal with it, but it's still tricky if you let him put his back to a wall though!

Thanks to everyone who stressed the importance of free aiming. It's super handy and it's shocking how much farther firebombs can be tossed, they're straight up capable of replacing throwing knives as a sniping/draw aggro option if you don't have a bow and can aim.

I'm tempted to remap dodge to a shoulder button so I can freely control the camera while sprinting. The fact that you can't sprint when locked on (unlike Sekiro) is an adjustment for me, and I'm coming to grips that there's a lot of fights where breaking lock and sprinting away can be very handy.

[Blinge]

Dude the golems down in the woods?
sword and shield golems? you're not underlevelled for them. They're just sponges

DO NOT REMAP
don't do it!
you'll just be fucking yourself long term just get used to the default scheme.

Or.. if you're a real big dick G.. do this.


2 onwards let you sprint while locked on btw

[Lander]

I'm going to double-down on the no-lock-on thing and say it's secretly just a quick turn button that got accidentally mapped to a toggle.
A trick I often use is Lock -> R1 -> Immediately Unlock -> Aim with LS to abuse the mid-swing turn and get a bigger arc. Useful both for initiating vs groups, and fine-tuning mid-combo when your current target dies.

DO NOT REMAP
don't do it!
you'll just be fucking yourself long term just get used to the default scheme.

Yeah, fucking with the shoulder cluster is bad news in From games that have separate heavy / light inputs. Best solve if you can justify the wallet crater is to get a controller with back paddles and map use item / dodge to them.

Though Sekiro works quite nicely with jump / grapple on L2 / R2, since they're much more oft-used than the prosthetic attack.

Or.. if you're a real big dick G.. do this.

Oh for fuck's sake, they've known all along

[ryu]

I still can't believe they really referenced the claw grip in an ingame item.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Yeah, fucking with the shoulder cluster is bad news in From games that have separate heavy / light inputs.

Nah, there's lots of games I can't stand the defaults on and they aren't comfortable. Dark Souls is one of em, and it's not the attack buttons on the shoulders that give me problems. Probably would be much less interested in it if I were stuck with a version with no remapping honestly. My hand's quite large and having Dodge on the right face button as the default position is really uncomfortable. I actually like it best at the bottom but this can only be done on the Switch version by remapping the console and I'm currently using a third party controller which has 4 disparate D-Pad buttons so no accidental diagonals, hence no remapping the confirm/cancel menu buttons, blech. If I remap dodge to my preferred button, the bottom face button, dodge remains the "confirm" button in menus but NOT during npc dialogue, so I have a tendency of accidentally to then accidentally try and backstep mid conversation. Less than ideal if there's a pit around such as on the staircase while talking to the jailed bro from Vinheim! My current compromise is left face for dodge, upper face for parry, right face for lock-on, LB for use item, LT for block (much prefer holding this than LB).

Sekiro's much easier to figure out an optimal controller setting for since its dodge/dash responds instantly on button press instead of waiting to detect and input then non-input before doing the dodge. For Sekiro I use: (XB inputs):

Spoiler

X : block/deflect
A: attack
Y: jump
B: pick up

B: confirm
Y: cancel (if attack is on this you might hit someone accidentally)

RT: dodge/dash
RB: lock on

LT: grapple
LB: ninja tool

D-Pad Left: change item
D-Pad Right: change tool
D-Pad Down or Select: crouch

Xbox Guide Button: use item

This allows for easy block + attack inputs to use special moves, no use of L3 or R3, you can easily use the camera when running, you can easily press lock-on while holding block or ninja tool, you don't need to claw grip the shoulders to do anything, you don't use crouch much to do anything normally, you don't have to risk accidentally using an item by pressing the wrong D-Pad button, etc. Some of the buttons like Guide and Dodge button are mapped to keyboard inputs to allow RT to register as a much lighter press via JoyToKey faster than the game registers, and cuz Steam doesn't allow for custom Guide button mapping anymore, ick.

[rapoon]

If I remap dodge to my preferred button, the bottom face button, dodge remains the "confirm" button in menus but NOT during npc dialogue, so I have a tendency of accidentally to then accidentally try and backstep mid conversation. Less than ideal if there's a pit around such as on the staircase while talking to the jailed bro from Vinheim! My current compromise is left face for dodge, upper face for parry, right face for lock-on, LB for use item, LT for block (much prefer holding this than LB).

One of the first things I did in the remastered version was remap dodge. There's one particular npc whose squawking you may not want to listen to, but they're positioned at a precipice so you'll go flying off the side of a cliff if care isn't exercised.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Yeah, I've done that; one of the reasons I loathe the defaults. I also just firebombed André by accident mashing cancel when I tried having Use Item on the the cancel button, he was not pleased by it.

In case I forget, I've settled on this as a control scheme:

Spoiler

ZR: Normal Attack
R: Heavy Attack

ZL: Block (this is comfy to hold for long periods while running)
L: Use Item (you never need to block while using an item obviously)

Y: Dodge (you don't want this mapped to whatever's on menu confirm/cancel)
B: Get Item (ideally this would be on A and menu cancel on something harmless like X, but if you're stuck in a setup where you can't move the hardcoded menu buttons this is a compromise, you generally shouldn't need it in combat so I don't know why it occupies such a central button)
X: Lock On (I like it close to Dodge)
A: Parry (same as Breath of the Wild, ideally it'd be on B or X, but if I use a controller that can't be freely remapped this is a good compromise, you can't hit NPCs with a parry unless using one of the exotic shields with an attack so risk is low of NPC damage, parry doesn't move you forward, if this is on menu cancel you are forced to parry when you press it to exit, but just press the start / + button to exit quickly instead)

-: Gesture
+: Menu

R3: Swap one hand to two hand (some setups may use this to swap frequently but I use Lock-On more honestly so I want that on a face button)

D-Pad: no changes, up for magic swap, down for item swap, left for shield, right for weapons, you could potentially unmap shields and weapons to manually swap if you want to avoid the risk of accidentally unequipping a shield when trying to cycle items on a flaky D-pad

[Lander]

Nah, there's lots of games I can't stand the defaults on and they aren't comfortable. Dark Souls is one of em, and it's not the attack buttons on the shoulders that give me problems. Probably would be much less interested in it if I were stuck with a version with no remapping honestly. My hand's quite large and having Dodge on the right face button as the default position is really uncomfortable. I actually like it best at the bottom but this can only be done on the Switch version by remapping the console and I'm currently using a third party controller which has 4 disparate D-Pad buttons so no accidental diagonals, hence no remapping the confirm/cancel menu buttons, blech.

Don't get me wrong - I'm a serial remapper with a mild ergonomics fixation - just cautioning that there's a lot of moveset stuff designed to be intuitive around the left arm / right arm on index and ring finger layout.

If I remap dodge to my preferred button, the bottom face button, dodge remains the "confirm" button in menus but NOT during npc dialogue, so I have a tendency of accidentally to then accidentally try and backstep mid conversation. Less than ideal if there's a pit around such as on the staircase while talking to the jailed bro from Vinheim! My current compromise is left face for dodge, upper face for parry, right face for lock-on, LB for use item, LT for block (much prefer holding this than LB).

Ah, pitting oneself with a mashed backstep is a classic

Sekiro's much easier to figure out an optimal controller setting for since its dodge/dash responds instantly on button press instead of waiting to detect and input then non-input before doing the dodge.

I'm somewhat convinced that the negative edge dodge in Souls is a difficulty measure, perhaps designed to punish indecision between sprinting and dodging.
Not a very good one, mind, since it introduces muddle by encouraging the player to abuse the press / hold timer and button-down earlier than they otherwise would.
So many hits that would have been fine if not for those few extra frames...

Yeah, I've done that; one of the reasons I loathe the defaults. I also just firebombed André by accident mashing cancel when I tried having Use Item on the the cancel button, he was not pleased by it.

[Blinge]

ha if you make more problems by remapping that's on you1
remapping woes reminds me of these fucking stupid "old fromsoft" game tourism vids
where it's 10 minutes of someone saying " WOW THE GRAPHICS WERE BAD HUH. OMG CONTROLS! GUYS CHECK OUT THESE CONTROLS! "
often coupled with instructions for modern soyboy gamers on how to remap using emulators.

not me.
I'm a badass.. i turned my controller round for armored core...

[BareKnuckleRoo]

- I'm a serial remapper with a mild ergonomics fixation - just cautioning that there's a lot of moveset stuff designed to be intuitive around the left arm / right arm on index and ring finger layout.

Yeah, as a serial remapper too, I make sure to learn the game with default layout and see every button input the game expects from you and then act accordingly with that in mind.

Ah, pitting oneself with a mashed backstep is a classic

One I'd rather not have to deal with.

So many hits that would have been fine if not for those few extra frames...

Yeah, the negative edge dodge input is something I think as a, well, negative. The game is still fun despite it, but running should have been implemented differently. Even Sekiro style where you have to dodge before running, though that'd be a problem for fatrolling setups, haha. Maybe make the lock on button into a negative input where tapping and holding allows running but a tap alone triggers lock on.

Dark Souls is cool, but I absolutely do not like the default control scheme. I wonder, is it possibly different in the JP release? Did they screw with it in the English version? Ah well, all games should offer remappable controls because frankly there's lots of different controller setups out there, including specialized handicapped ones that are more cumbersome to setup if the game doesn't have remapping options.

ha if you make more problems by remapping that's on you1

Technically it's the same problem with the default mapping caused by the Confirm and Cancel menu buttons not being remappable which would actually fix the issue. Dash is on Cancel by default and because Rickert of Vinheim forces you to put your back to a pit when speaking to him, if you don't then turn after initiating the conversation, it's a problem.

I also experimented with putting Parry on L as usual, with the Cancel button being on Swap Item and have Use Item as D-Pad down, but that was a bit weird for me. It meant I could safely mash cancel in front of an NPC without issue, but using items became unintuitive.

I'm a badass.. i turned my controller round for armored core...

The funny part is the AC games generally had robust remapping options so I don't know why From was so lazy and didn't bother offering it in Dark Souls until the remaster.

[Sima Tuna]

All games should have controller remapping, just as all shmups should have autofire. Personally, I like the default Dark Souls mapping and I changed the jump button back to DS1 default when I played DS2. I've never needed or wanted different mappings in Souls games. But you should play the game the way that's comfortable for you. Just as I will always enable autofire in every shmup so that my arthritis doesn't fuck me over.

I remap Armored Core 3 to use a pseudo third-person control scheme with strafe on dpad and turn on shoulders. Default AC controls didn't work for me. I couldn't hover-tap using the default control scheme.

[rapoon]

just cautioning that there's a lot of moveset stuff designed to be intuitive around the left arm / right arm on index and ring finger layout.

where are you placing your ring finger?

Technically it's the same problem with the default mapping caused by the Confirm and Cancel menu buttons not being remappable which would actually fix the issue. Dash is on Cancel by default and because Rickert of Vinheim forces you to put your back to a pit when speaking to him, if you don't then turn after initiating the conversation, it's a problem.

intuition partially stems from experience. no ones going to convince me to stop inverting the y-axis or wanting x/a as jump and square/x as punch in a brawler.
besides, remapping controls is an accessibility function. most jarring thing with From is when they change the use item & heal around; going from dark souls to bloodborne, i'll be lobbing molotovs when I should heal.

[Blinge]

Technically it's the same problem with the default mapping caused by the Confirm and Cancel menu buttons not being remappable which would actually fix the issue. Dash is on Cancel by default and because Rickert of Vinheim forces you to put your back to a pit when speaking to him, if you don't then turn after initiating the conversation, it's a problem.

Wait.. what?
I've never backstepped after talking to Rickert..
I even mash to get out of menus..
do you have a rapid fire thumb that just won't stop?

I'm a badass.. i turned my controller round for armored core...

I didn't really..

[BareKnuckleRoo]

The problem is the cancel button is mapped to dodge, and cancel does NOT cancel out their dialogue when talking like the get item button does. If you forget that NPC dialogue allows free movement and try to hit cancel because you've heard it before, you'll backstep unlike most other games which treat dialogue like being in a menu.

Kicking the skeletons off the ledge appears to be working, I've made it to the necromancer in the catacombs by luring the skellyboys up the ladder one by one

[Blinge]

well whatever works for you

but... you can get through NPC dialogue by pressing the confirm button

You gonna rewatch my thicc souls vid when you're done for the extra context?

[Lander]

where are you placing your ring finger?

Wouldn't you like to know I meant middle finger.
Perhaps a Freide-ian slip after too much claw gripping...

intuition partially stems from experience. no ones going to convince me to stop inverting the y-axis or wanting x/a as jump and square/x as punch in a brawler.

I'd argue that it's the other way around, since intuition is defined as the ability to gain understanding without foreknowledge.
Considering the example of look inversion, shooters had to invent the "hey chief look up (i'm not telling you which way is up)" device to synthesize that intuition during players' potential first encounter with 3D rotation, after which it becomes prior knowledge.

Yeah, the negative edge dodge input is something I think as a, well, negative. The game is still fun despite it, but running should have been implemented differently. Even Sekiro style where you have to dodge before running, though that'd be a problem for fatrolling setups, haha. Maybe make the lock on button into a negative input where tapping and holding allows running but a tap alone triggers lock on.

I find there's a silver lining to the subtly player-hostile controls, where they reinforce the survival horrorish sense that you could screw up and die at any time that pervades the rest of the design.
Though that's my pipe-toting games-as-an-experience-man side talking; tension is good, but not worth building traps into the controller unless you're attempting sincere homage to weird PS1 controls.

Dark Souls is cool, but I absolutely do not like the default control scheme. I wonder, is it possibly different in the JP release? Did they screw with it in the English version? Ah well, all games should offer remappable controls because frankly there's lots of different controller setups out there, including specialized handicapped ones that are more cumbersome to setup if the game doesn't have remapping options.

Not as far as I'm aware - I assume that's the sort of thing that would be a well-plumbed bit of series trivia by this point if it were so.

I do remember trying to hack together a Devil May Cry style control scheme with steam input way back when I first played, attacks on facebuttons and whatnot.
Safe to say, it was a clunky mess that clashed with the never-take-your-thumbs-off-the-sticks aspiration that the shoulder focused layout pushes toward.

I didn't really..

I can't believe you've done this

[Steamflogger Boss]

[Rastan78]

Dark Souls is cool, but I absolutely do not like the default control scheme. I wonder, is it possibly different in the JP release? Did they screw with it in the English version? Ah well, all games should offer remappable controls because frankly there's lots of different controller setups out there, including

Yeah it's different. X and O are flipped between JPN and English like most games except with Dark Souls this means roll also got swapped over along with confirm/cancel.

It's weird how on Switch they lock you to western PS style layout for confirm/cancel even though pretty much every other Switch game has confirm on A. IIRC there's an option to change it that's grayed out.

[Stevens]

I love how the banana goes in the oven but doesn't come out.

Also never played an AC game.

[rapoon]

I've played one other AC game and remember basically nothing about it. I'm eager for a detraction from the decade old formula.

Simultaneously, I die a little bit every time I watch Digital Foundry - Bloodborne PS5 at 60FPS

[Sumez]

often coupled with instructions for modern soyboy gamers on how to remap using emulators.

Right on time lol
https://mobile.twitter.com/vinciusmedei ... 6867261443

[BareKnuckleRoo]

The original control scheme's limitations were part of Shadow Tower and King's Field's game balance. Changing this feels quite wrong, kinda like how the remasters of Resident Evil 1 remake offer 3d movement over the tank controls which trivializes all the enemies.

Yeah it's different. X and O are flipped between JPN and English like most games except with Dark Souls this means roll also got swapped over along with confirm/cancel.

Thank you for confirming this. I hate when my suspicions are right. It means English audiences with dodge on the right face button are stuck with an altered layout where your thumb has to be scrunched close to your hand most of the time.

I've discovered my PC runs this well so I'm playing it now there where remapping is more robust. One issue is you can't UNMAP controls, which is a problem if you want to unmap some of the D-Pad swap inputs to avoid accidental diagonals and a sudden weapon/shield change when cycling items. Steam's latest update for Big Picture Mode also seems to have broken it which makes it hard to access for per game mapping...

[Sumez]

kinda like how the remasters of Resident Evil 1 remake offer 3d movement over the tank controls which trivializes all the enemies.

The mario controls in RE1make come with their own shitshow of jank, so I think it balances out.

[Sima Tuna]

The original control scheme's limitations were part of Shadow Tower and King's Field's game balance. Changing this feels quite wrong, kinda like how the remasters of Resident Evil 1 remake offer 3d movement over the tank controls which trivializes all the enemies.

That's a pet peeve of mine. I really hate it when people play survival horror games that were built around tank controls and then either mod out or use remake features to remove the tank controls. The game design only works in the context of what the player is able to do! If you play RE Zero or RE1 without tank controls then nothing can touch you. Which fucks up the balance on fight-or-flight and renders the essential conflict of a survival horror game moot.

It's like modding mario 64 to give you infinite wing cap or infinite metal cap and then playing the entire game that way. I'm sure you can do it. I'm sure it has been done. But it's just like the meme, "you cheated yourself and the game."

I really wish developers who remake games and add game-breaking "convenience" would at least do a better job explaining in menus just how much those "convenience" features ruin the balancing of the original title.

Notice that I am not casting a judgement on whether or not tank controls are good. I enjoy them in survival horror games. Others hate them. That's fine either way. But what's important is that the game use the control system it was designed around. You could hack full FPS controls into Star Fox 64 (remove the constant forward movement and inertia) and that would fuck the game up just as bad. Remapping buttons is fine but allowing the player to change the control system (ie 3d vs 2d movement) can ruin a game's balance.

I do get tired of people who play old games and assume that something they encounter, which they are unfamiliar with, is a "flaw." Rather than an intentional design element. The primary benefit of tank controls is to allow the fixed camera to shift freely without negatively impacting play control. As well as to foster a sense of limitation in your movements and reaction time which assists in survival horror atmosphere.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Spoiler

I'm impressed by how much you can access early on once you reach the Undead Parish. The Taurus Demon serves as a wall but once you're past him, you can actually wander to most areas of the game freely if you know where to go. It's fun discovering all the interconnectivity in the maps.

The Catacombs absolutely don't need a special weapon to deal with the respawning skeletons. Luring all the ones before the bonfire up the ladder and kicking them into the pit just takes patience, but once they're out of the way the necromancer dies easily, and the next two can be killed with arrows or firebombs before their groupies can spot. Made some initial progress in looting the place but want to upgrade my armor as much as possible before delving too deep.

As it turns out my computer runs the PC version just fine, so that'll be fun to play too.

Made it to Blighttown, ran right past the scary undead dragon (who seems to have a billion HP, I need to bring a ton of ammo to plink him down it seems). It's pretty dizzying navigating the rickety framework in the level! The Switch version has occasional framedrops but nothing like what I've seen the XB360 and PS3 version do fortunately. Currently working on exploring and looting the place.

[Blinge]

You can fight that dragon with hit and run tactics. he's very predictable. no range required

Taurus Demon isn't a wall at all.. you just haven't learned how disrespectful you can be to the game, and maybe that's for the better. it's probably more enjoyable.

Catacombs? you don't even need to cheese the skeletons like that, you can just rush in and go for the necro, albeit only if you know where they spawn.
(A decently fun challenge is starting the game then going straight for Pinwheel as your first boss. One won't insult him so easily then)


Yes that shadow tower video is running way too fast. and apparently the mouselook speeds up the player's lookspeed faster than the game usually allows anyway. It's annoying. Modern PC gamers are fucking annoying with that stuff. I would prefer if they didn't have fun or play the game at all. But that's me, i'm a seething purist.
Also the jank added by REmake ez controls in no way outbalances the fact that Chris/Jill can now run rings around the enemies like they never could before.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Taurus Demon isn't a wall at all.. you just haven't learned how disrespectful you can be to the game, and maybe that's for the better. it's probably more enjoyable.

Oh yeah, no arguments there, I meant wall in the sense that you have to technically kill him to access the undead parish as otherwise he blocks the route (as far as I know, if the Master Key lets you go down to Darkroot Basin past Havel I guess you could run in the back way past André, I didn't start with it just to avoid accidentally going Very Bad Places too early). I beat him on my first attempt by chucking firebombs and knives at him and just walking backwards when he swings.

And yes, your Thicc Boi, no dodges run is of great interest to me! I've only been watching the early parts I've already played through to avoid spoilers, seeing Taurus Demon throw himself off to his death is hilarious! I'm also currently fairly heavy due to using Elite Knight Gear, so it's nice to know this is technically viable if suboptimal.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Blighttown is a powerpoint presentation on PS3, it's the sort of thing that you wonder why you ever put up with. (see also PS3 Dragon's Dogma, lol)

Also never played an AC game.

Fast-paced mecha action with bite-sized missions and extensive customization. Should be a blast. My only fear is the singleplayer content suffering from the inevitable focus on online multiplayer.