From Software 'n such

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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Sima Tuna
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Sima Tuna »

I deliberately avoided Demons and Dark Souls for a year or two because I assumed it was like most mainstream games, aka shit. So I missed out on the initial hype wave. I purchased Dark Souls when I found a steelbook edition for 20 bux at a shop. Figured I'd give it a try for that price. And of course, I fell in love with it. I went back and played ps3 Demon's Souls (back when the online was still working and Scraping Spears flowed like wine through the salty servers.) I had a blast with both games. I've played more Dark Souls 1 but I think I appreciate DeS more. DeS has a bleak, horrific atmosphere that other Fromsoft games weren't able to equal until Bloodborne. But even Bloodborne is more "cosmic horror via grindhouse splatterfest" than "bleakly desolate" (as I'd describe the Shrine of Storms in Demon's Souls). The sound design in Latria 3-1 is on its own level of quality. Hell, Latria 3-1 may be the best zone From have ever built.

Anyways, after playing and loving Dark Souls 1 and Demon's Souls, I purchased DSII on launch. I've already explained my relationship with and views on that game. I played the shit out of those three games and then I waited for quite some time to get a PS4 and Bloodborne copy. Bloodborne is up there with Demon's Souls as an all-time great. Not just for souls games, but Fromsoft titles generally. You can place Bloodborne and DeS with Armored Core 3 and Kuon.

DS3 was the last Fromsoft game I played and I haven't played either Elden Ring or Sekiro.
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Sumez
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Re: From Software 'n such

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Sima Tuna wrote:I deliberately avoided Demons and Dark Souls for a year or two because I assumed it was like most mainstream games, aka shit.
That's surprising, took both games a while to reach anything resembling "mainstream".
Demon's Souls didn't even get a release here initially, so I had to import it to play (after having tried a friend's Japanese import earlier on). It was like that sleeper hit that people on nerdy STG forums appreciate and hype up internally.
It wasn't until the end of the year when GameSpot surprisingly awarded it "game of the year" rather than giving that to some sponsored AAA title, and a bunch of other publications did the same thing the game suddenly got mainstream attention. And it wasn't until after that the game even got a European release. If anything, Demon's Souls feels like a game that had to claw its way up and earn its reputation, rather than being given it up-front.

That said, I can understand taking a quick look at the game and seeing how it looks like traditional western 3D melee sword combat in a very generic fantasy world, and not really seeing anything that stands out.

This is the original article that got me hooked on the game, prior to the American release, and much before the European one: https://www.eurogamer.net/demons-souls-review
Kind of a blast to go back reading it now, given the massive influence that game eventually had.
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Lander
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Lander »

Sorry not sorry for causing the thread to loop back around to Souls Life Stories ;)
As might be evident, I was testing the "your first is always your favourite" hypothesis. Interesting to see the way DeS / DaS interact in people's histories with the series.

For my part, I remember seeing Demon's Souls on the shelf of my uni town's mom 'n' pop game shop. The cover caught my attention enough to read the blurb, but that's as far as it went since I only had a 360.
We collectively moved to Bristol for third year, and flatmate Sammy - connoseiur of more obscure titles - brought out Dark Souls during one of our afternoon couch gaming binges. Its reputation preceded it, resulting in a tense hotseat run that ended in total demoralization after meeting the basilisks and getting cursed :lol:
Those early days of not knowing where to find shit were something special. I later went back to conquer it on PC, and it's been my favourite ever since.

Also, Souls-adjacent, but have any of you played...

Stranger of Paradise: Final Fantasy Origin
Picked this up the other day, since the word of mouth had me interested, and it's as bizarre as they say. It's got the fully-blown Squeenix / FF presentational style, but the story and characters seem to be a borderline-parodic wink nudge inversion of the traditional series tropes.
I thought this scene (mild spoilers for the end of the first stage) must have been a funny meme edit after seeing it around launch, but no, Jack does in fact pause the post-boss conversation to strut out of the dungeon while blasting edgy choonz on his smartphone. What the fuck man :lol: no way this isn't self-aware.

The gameplay seems like a cool riff on the old FF job system, with all manner of classes, tech and cancels dumped on you from moment one. It's a bit overwhelming, truth be told, and a touch stilted compared to the smoothness of its genre peers, but clearly has enough depth to elevate it from souls clone to character actionish given some practice.

Anyhow, I dropped it after the first dungeon. There's obviously some off-kilter fun to come back to, but I need way more distance from Grim Dawn Burnout Week before I touch another looter, let alone one that also bears the crushing weight of fully-voiced JRPG interstitial dialogue.
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Volteccer_Jack
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Volteccer_Jack »

Yo Stranger of Paradise is the bomb. Nioh meets FF job system. Funny that you call it overwhelming, they toned down the complexity compared to Nioh, haha. The AI controlled partners are not ideal, but you can remove them and go solo, if you're up for the increase in difficulty.

Without spoiling, the basic idea of the story is that it's the events of FF1, but the world is not as it should be, and Jack in particular doesn't belong. IMO the story is a lot of fun just because of the bizarre interactions between Jack and everyone else. Here's the song in question, btw, in case someone says something so insane that you need to just blast trashy music and walk out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73OgV6sqqN0
Blinge wrote:With such classics as Taurus Demon
Taurus Demon is a great earlygame boss, does everything he needs to to be interesting and fun. Is he easy? Yeah, but he's kinda supposed to be, and if you're on your third playthrough or whatever you can let the archers shoot at you to spice up the fights a bit. Vordt is like Taurus Demon but worse; you can call DS1 a "relic of its time" if you want, but DS3 is a relic of DS1's time too.

On a related note, Cleric Beast is one of the best bosses out of all the games.
As might be evident, I was testing the "your first is always your favourite" hypothesis. Interesting to see the way DeS / DaS interact in people's histories with the series.
DS1 was my favorite until I played Sekiro. Though Bloodborne has also grown on me to the point where I prefer it to DS1. I like Demon's almost as much as DS1, but it has some issues holding it back.
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Lander
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Lander »

Volteccer_Jack wrote:Yo Stranger of Paradise is the bomb. Nioh meets FF job system. Funny that you call it overwhelming, they toned down the complexity compared to Nioh, haha. The AI controlled partners are not ideal, but you can remove them and go solo, if you're up for the increase in difficulty.
I only played Nioh 1, but feel like it had a bit more of an informational drip-feed than FF's initial deluge of tipboxes - like it's putting the cards on the table all at once and leaving me to sift through them in my own time. Though in fairness, I did go in on the Nioh beta test, so had room to figure things out and experiment before the full game dropped.

The AI seemed kind of odd - smart enough to zone appropriately in response to threats, but not as proactive as expected outside of resonance mode. I assume I was underusing it, since their MP was maxed out way more often than Jack's.
Volteccer_Jack wrote:Without spoiling, the basic idea of the story is that it's the events of FF1, but the world is not as it should be, and Jack in particular doesn't belong. IMO the story is a lot of fun just because of the bizarre interactions between Jack and everyone else. Here's the song in question, btw, in case someone says something so insane that you need to just blast trashy music and walk out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73OgV6sqqN0.
I did get a 'world of greatest hits' vibe from the way it handled the intro fight, planting-the-seeds-of-plot-twist tutorial, and chaos shrine. Based on the conversations with the king, it almost feels like the world is predetermined to play out the FF storyline regardless of Jack and the party. Neon might as well have "featuring Kaine from the Nier series" stamped on her forehead too :lol:
Volteccer_Jack wrote:DS1 was my favorite until I played Sekiro. Though Bloodborne has also grown on me to the point where I prefer it to DS1. I like Demon's almost as much as DS1, but it has some issues holding it back.
I tend to keep Sekiro on its own podium, since it diverges so heavily from the stats 'n' gear game, and is just an unfair fight on some level. Bloodborne too, though its similar level of masterwork is marred for now by the lack of a port or enhanced emulation.

So speaking solely in terms of mainline Souls, I go with DS1 as well. Though I still need to play Demons' and form a proper opinion on it - I keep setting up the perfect RPCS3 emulation config, playing through 1-1, then going "excellent, I'll come back to this next time I feel like Souls" only for From to release another game and put the plan back at square one.
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Re: From Software 'n such

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Lander wrote:Sorry not sorry for causing the thread to loop back around to Souls Life Stories ;)
As might be evident, I was testing the "your first is always your favourite" hypothesis. Interesting to see the way DeS / DaS interact in people's histories with the series.
Genuinely curious how you think whether or not someone played Demon's Souls before Dark affects their take on DS3? :P
Lander wrote: I tend to keep Sekiro on its own podium, since it diverges so heavily from the stats 'n' gear game, and is just an unfair fight on some level. Bloodborne too, though its similar level of masterwork is marred for now by the lack of a port or enhanced emulation.
IMO the primary way (for me) to improve the Souls series would be removing the "stats 'n' gear game". Bloodborne is kinda halfway there.
While I admit the massive customizability and crazy ways you can change up a run and various encounters either to experiment or abuse your knowledge about certain items and game mechanics is a massive part of Dark Souls' quality, I'd love to see the same design philosophy and mechanics employed in a much more laser focused action game. Sekiro sort of does exactly that, but the thing is I don't have fun with the combat in Sekiro.
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Sima Tuna
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Sima Tuna »

Stats are the lifeblood of an rpg though. If you removed stats from souls games entirely then they would cease to be "rpg" in any way. They'd be closer to devil may cry or gears of war played on max difficulty.

I also wonder how builds could be implemented without stats. What makes it a "build," rather than just a play style, is that you have to invest. Without any stats, how would a two-handed sword's damage go up or down? Or would it just be fixed? What would make a "strength" weapon different from a "dexterity" weapon? These questions can be answered easily in a souls game because they still have the core of stats underpinning their gameplay. The stats are essential.

It's fine if people think souls games would be more fun without any rpg elements. I'm just saying that I don't think the games would feel the same at all. That slow, steady progression in power as you gradually overcome barriers wouldn't matter as much if there were no numbers behind it. The numbers create much of the fun for me. Not in themselves, but the play that they enable.

"How do I spend these souls?"
"Should I pump my stats, or upgrade weapons?"
"I got a cool new weapon. Is it worth trying to upgrade?"
"Do I go all-in on damage stats to crank my dps, or do I need some stamina and health right now more?"

How do you allow the player to develop a build or upgrade their character without numbers? The best I can think of is to employ a shop system like devil may cry 3, where you buy damage and character upgrades but they don't show you the numbers. And where the majority of upgrades are additional moves that don't actually increase your power level directly.

One of the most obvious forerunners of the Souls games was King's Field. Those titles are very much stat-driven experiences. So is armored core, actually, although it has a high skill ceiling. I don't think King's Field would work without the numbers any better than Dark Souls would. I suppose From could always hide the numbers without removing them, lol.
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Re: From Software 'n such

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Sima Tuna wrote:Stats are the lifeblood of an rpg though. If you removed stats from souls games entirely then they would cease to be "rpg" in any way.
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Sima Tuna wrote:How do you allow the player to develop a build or upgrade their character without numbers? The best I can think of is to employ a shop system like devil may cry 3, where you buy damage and character upgrades but they don't show you the numbers.
The best I can think of is having neither of those things.
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Re: From Software 'n such

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Based Smez taking a hammer to the soft-and-fuzzy balance that plagues Action RPG as a genre :)

I feel similarly. At the very least, I think it's fair to say RPG numbers have gotten wildly out of control; leveling in a genre with 99+ caps has become a creep rather than a series of breakthroughs, reducing the importance of each individual point down to some minor and boring percent buff.
At best, you'll tick over a breakpoint and feel a slightly bigger buff, or unlock the ability to buy some distinct (but likely still weak without futher upgrades) new power in a skill tree. That's much less interesting than older coarser systems like Baldur's Gate where going up a level in the early game can double your health pool and open up a bunch of interesting new spell options.

Numbers are an inevitability on some level, since even the most hardcore character action game needs to do math to figure out whether something is dead, but I think exposing them as a highly-granular player-controlled progression is lazy soft-balancing.
Take NieR: Automata as an example; it's got all the signature Platinum combat mechanics, but trivializes them completely as you outlevel various classes of enemy. Why have a juggle system if you don't even have time to get airborne?
Lightning Returns had a similar issue; there are super flashy stagger setups you can do against some of its larger enemies, but they effectively get deleted from the game once you've passed the (rather too narrow) golden band of player : enemy power ratio.

If anything, I'd like to see a tighter no-leveling version of Elden Ring's gear progression; drop player stats and make it all about the gear, have every piece be singular and unique to avoid Diablo syndrome, put each one behind a dungeon or comparable challenge as a reward, and have power progression arise from abilities granted by said items, rather than from their being intrinsically better on a numerical level.
Progressing through the world should be akin to the semi-puzzle structure of Gothic or early-game Shadows Over Loathing, where the adventure is defined by finding the next zone/s that'll let you get your foot in the door with what you have, rather than through arbitrarily-grindable level ranges.
Sumez wrote:Genuinely curious how you think whether or not someone played Demon's Souls before Dark affects their take on DS3? :P
I mean, it could in theory, but I'm not drawing an explicit causal line between DeS and DS3 - just noting that DeS' progenitor status puts it in a difference place to the main trilogy when it comes to informing someone's favourite.
We won't know the real truth of the first-favourite hypothesis until Austin pops back in to reveal which was his ;)
Sumez wrote:IMO the primary way (for me) to improve the Souls series would be removing the "stats 'n' gear game". Bloodborne is kinda halfway there.
While I admit the massive customizability and crazy ways you can change up a run and various encounters either to experiment or abuse your knowledge about certain items and game mechanics is a massive part of Dark Souls' quality, I'd love to see the same design philosophy and mechanics employed in a much more laser focused action game. Sekiro sort of does exactly that, but the thing is I don't have fun with the combat in Sekiro.
When I say it wouldn't be a fair fight, I mean it in Sekiro's favour :lol:

I'd love to see From do more action stuff in that design mindset, though preferably after learning what command moves are so they can get rid of the everything-is-a-cycled-item-slot approach to secondary abilities.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Volteccer_Jack »

You can't remove stats, they're inherent to reality lol. You can only remove the player's ability to alter those stats. Sekiro merely ties stats to items, which effectively gives the player a level-cap based on progression. I really feel that blaming problems of Souls on "stats" is a red herring; if you simply gained some flat amount of stats after each boss kill in Dark Souls, that wouldn't fix the game's problems.

I will say the stats and levelling in Dark Souls are not designed/balanced very well, for instance HP is consistently way better than any other stat. It's one area where I think Team Ninja do a much better job than From.
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Re: From Software 'n such

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Volteccer_Jack wrote:I really feel that blaming problems of Souls on "stats" is a red herring; if you simply gained some flat amount of stats after each boss kill in Dark Souls, that wouldn't fix the game's problems.
Oh I'm not suggesting removing stats to fix any "problems" with Dark Souls.
Dark Souls is one of the best games ever made, very close to the absolute top of my personal list. And even though it has its kinks, I really struggle to say it has problems. And if you want to play Dark Souls without stats, Level 1 runs are completely perfectly viable (and also not that crazy because your damage output is primarily tied to item upgrades, rather than stats).

I'm saying if you want to design an offshoot game that differs from Dark Souls but draws on my favourite parts of its strengths, the one way you could make it better in accomodation of my personal tastes, is by removing all the RPG and build design shenanigangs. Hell, glue the player to a single sword and remove all items entirely. I'm talking a pure classic straight-forward action game, that doesn't have any need to "tie your level-cap to progression". Such a game would be the anti-Elden Ring, and I like Elden Ring.
Also I'm saying it in the context of Sekiro differing from the "stats n gear" games, because I think it doesn't need to. Because I think it has the right idea, and you could do the same thing with Souls style gameplay, since the only thing I don't like about Sekiro is the combat (and that's entirely a "me" thing)

Realistically, the primary reason items exist in these games is to accomodate and reward exploration as well as game knowledge, to add an engaging gameplay element that isn't strictly engaging with enemies in combat. And the exploration is an element I'd be much more sad to lose from these games, so obviously there'd have to be some sort of compromise in that regard, but it doesn't need to be RPG'ish in nature. I also think the exploration in Sekiro is perfectly good.
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Re: From Software 'n such

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Lander wrote:Question for both of you: Which one was your first?
Didn't really get into these until DS3 was already out. Despite having played AC games before, as well as a bit of their RPGs on PS2 as well.

My favorites are BB and DS1 but it's all goooood. Except DS2 which is mid.
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Sumez wrote:Played Demon's Souls on release, fell in love, preordered Dark Souls the moment it was possible.
This was me, too. Demon's Souls still plays the best to me, but Dark Souls has the best world.

Unless we count Bloodborne, which takes both titles handily (although I haven't tried Sekiro yet).
Sekiro is very different in a lot of ways from the others. Of course some of the DNA is there. It's a great game imo, but it's not *really* a Souls game. Mostly because it's not nearly as custom and forces you to play a certain way. I see other users kinda touch on this too.
Sumez wrote: IMO the primary way (for me) to improve the Souls series would be removing the "stats 'n' gear game". Bloodborne is kinda halfway there.
While I admit the massive customizability and crazy ways you can change up a run and various encounters either to experiment or abuse your knowledge about certain items and game mechanics is a massive part of Dark Souls' quality, I'd love to see the same design philosophy and mechanics employed in a much more laser focused action game. Sekiro sort of does exactly that, but the thing is I don't have fun with the combat in Sekiro.
Admittedly I don't replay Sekiro like I do the others so I kinda get it. I love the custom experience but a streamlined game like Sekiro but with less spastic combat is something I could get behind. Room for both, I feel. Doubt From will do it though. I just really want another game from them that isn't open world. ER made me sad in many ways. Truly the first time I've wanted one of their games to be done before I finished.
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Sima Tuna
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Sima Tuna »

I want open world games where the open world is very, very small and densely-packed with content.

Other than that, I don't want to see open world games.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

I took the plunge and bought Dark Souls for the Switch. I'm enjoying it so far. The exploration and vibe scratches the same itch that the King's Field games do, which is fun. I did find it amusing to discover that the Deprived class has a rather potent weapon to start with, despite otherwise being intended as the challenge class (namely because their stats are spread out evenly instead of being focused). The club's a darn good weapon, though I confess to preferring a sword's poke attacks. It seems like the "weakest" class to start would be a Sorcerer who ditches all their armor and the catalyst until they can find one normally, they have the worst melee stats to start.

It's more fun than Sekiro so far, but I think that's partly because the exploration is more engaging and tense. Sekiro's kind of a balance between character action style combat that's more focused, with exploration as a side thing. Exploration isn't terribly difficult though because you grapple around like a madmad, and the limited weapon variety compared to DS obviously means combat feels more limited, particularly early on when you don't have the special moves or tools to spice things up. It's still a good game, but Dark Souls is clearly the better game overall in terms of the freedom it offers.

The only weird thing I've noticed is the heads on all the character models are rather small for the body size. The "Top-Heavy" option in character creation, where you have an average body + larger head, actually looks the most natural. Fortunately once you get a set of full body armor you never have to worry about your own character looking slightly uncanny valley I guess as there's a ton of full face helms in the game.
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Re: From Software 'n such

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Spending ages creating a face for your Souls character and then never seeing it again after you find your first helm is kind of a recurring meme for the series. I'm pretty sure From keeps putting in the character creator mostly as a joke :P

And yes, you could argue exploration is the Souls series' bread and butter, and I'd be inclined to agree. In a way everything else the game does exists entirely to support that design.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Volteccer_Jack »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:It's more fun than Sekiro so far, but I think that's partly because the exploration is more engaging and tense.
The big thing that Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 1 get very right and which IMO is the main reason for their popularity is how they demand the player be observant of their surroundings, avoiding traps and leveraging the environment against enemies. Problems are typically solved by outsmarting them. None of the later games, or any of the soulslikes by other devs, do it as much or as well as those two.

Sekiro has a similar vibe of 'outsmarting your problems', but it's focused more in items and abilities rather than the environment, and when you do focus on the environment, it's to look for stealth kills.
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Re: From Software 'n such

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Yeah, the very fast running speed and emphasis on the grappling hook means that you can actually blaze past many of the environments in Sekiro without having to engage with them to the same extent you have to do so more methodically in King's Field or Souls. There's still exploration to be done of course, but it doesn't quite feel rewarding or satisfying in the same way.

edit: makin' progress in Dark Souls. The Capra Demon fight isn't too bad aside from the bullshit tight arena that makes the camera slightly weird, and the two dogs that represent most of the difficulty. 99% of the challenge is killing the dogs quickly and efficiently so you can actually fight the boss.

Surprisingly minimal jank in the game so far, with only the Capra Demon coming to mind, and the wyvern on the bridge. The wyvern's a bit weird; if you run far enough to see the burn marks and the body, you're already dead due to the range of the flames? The only way not to get hit is to step onto the bridge then run immediately back, because there's no way to see the wyvern's about to ambush you, unless I'm missing something (by the time you hear the drake flying it's going to burn you).

I'm quite fond of the halberd, it's strong and has long reach. Turtling behind a shield with a traditional spear is okay too, but I find that takes way too much stamina to be worth it compared to the halberd. I also found the Estoc... and discovered its normal attacks just miss dogs completely. You have to use the strong or shield poke. Oof.
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Re: From Software 'n such

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I always deal with Capra by sprinting up the stairs, then walking across the little ledge to the opposite corner. Janky as hell, but it funnels the dogs handily and can be used to generally bamboozle the Capra or set up a jump attack scenario.

And the Bridge Drake is a bastardy puzzle box of an enemy. You can conquer the entire game world, come back, and still get instakilled by his fire breath if standing too close. Jinking underneath to the bonfire is doable, but requires some nonsensical timing whereby you bait the breath then run in and intentionally take a hit a few inches away from entering instakill range (which is far enough down that you're fucked on both overshoot and undershoot), before making a panicked dash through the door with naff all margin.

He's got a whole grounded fight routine that you can trigger by attacking him with a bow too, but that makes no sense either.
It seems designed to herd the player back and forth along the middle section with awkward side-switches, very little in the way of damage window, and the constant threat of instant death breath if you make the slightest mistake in spacing. Hardest boss in the game.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Volteccer_Jack »

I've never been instakilled by the dragon breath. What happened when I played that section blind was I made a run for the stairs, didn't make it, got half my life nuked by the fire, but then got up and ran down the stairs. You can make it to the stairs before the dragon's first pass with a full sprint (might require low equip load?) but doing so is tight. Attempting it is not very risky, as long as you have a healthy life pool you will survive if you come up slightly short.

There's also this bizarre safespot where the flames don't reach you for some reason, which is relevant if you want to actually kill the thing:
Spoiler
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I'm quite fond of the halberd, it's strong and has long reach. Turtling behind a shield with a traditional spear is okay too, but I find that takes way too much stamina to be worth it compared to the halberd. I also found the Estoc... and discovered its normal attacks just miss dogs completely. You have to use the strong or shield poke. Oof.
You can aim attacks by tilting the camera up or down, allowing you to hit low enemies when your attack would otherwise miss (also works with ranged attacks and spells). Generally you're meant to swap to other weapons in situations unfavorable to your primary.
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Re: From Software 'n such

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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:edit: makin' progress in Dark Souls. The Capra Demon fight isn't too bad aside from the bullshit tight arena that makes the camera slightly weird, and the two dogs that represent most of the difficulty. 99% of the challenge is killing the dogs quickly and efficiently so you can actually fight the boss.
This... can't be your first playthrough.. ?
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Re: From Software 'n such

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Blinge wrote:
BareKnuckleRoo wrote:edit: makin' progress in Dark Souls. The Capra Demon fight isn't too bad aside from the bullshit tight arena that makes the camera slightly weird, and the two dogs that represent most of the difficulty. 99% of the challenge is killing the dogs quickly and efficiently so you can actually fight the boss.
This... can't be your first playthrough.. ?
I'd say BKR has repression memory sundrom. He already did 5 runs of NG++, then buried them very down in his brain to enjoy another fresh new one.
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

guigui wrote:
Blinge wrote:This... can't be your first playthrough.. ?
I'd say BKR has repression memory sundrom. He already did 5 runs of NG++, then buried them very down in his brain to enjoy another fresh new one.
Hahah, I'm afraid it is my first playthrough. I am a DS newbie and have well and truly gotten addicted. I'm well versed in King's Field though, as well as in Sekiro, so I have a decent feel for how From expects you to approach the game. I've played plenty of other various "roll through stuff with i-frames" type of games, so the melee combat is not too bad for me I think. As soon as I walked through the fog for Capra Demon and saw it was attacking, and then saw the damn dogs, I was running frantically around the arena. I died in a corner but noticed the stairs as a possible escape/choke point. I wasn't sure if you were meant to actually run from the thing or not) but I hacked the dogs down, accidentally landed on the doorframe past the stairs trying to run off the stairs (which I was told afterwards is apparently a way to exploit it) and had a chance to heal before I hopped down to fight the demon.

The Capra Demon itself is quite reasonable, its swings are all quite well telegraphed and dodgeable and I basically beat it down without much trouble. The dogs themselves are where all the difficulty come from, winning or losing comes down to killing them quickly and efficiently I guess?

I did die to plenty of silly stuff including:

• Taking the bait and trying to jump down to the blue tearstone ring, only to bounce off the right hand wall and discover there's a literal staircase ahead to it (I thought it might open up the gate that ended up being the shortcut to the lower burg, lol).

• Dying to the barrel tossed down pre-Taurus demon; apparently you can land on the ledge though if you're super lucky which happened one when I slipped off fighting the dude on the stairs, oops.

• Dying to the firebreath from the wyvern because I was low on health after Taurus but wanted to forge ahead in the hopes of finding a bonfire, stepped onto the bridge, backed off when I saw the corpse and burn marks, but not far enough to avoid getting roasted, lol.

• Trying to jump over the broken staircase in the New Londo Ruins when literally there's a path ahead around it. I need to explore stuff more before trying the risky acrobatics. >w>;;

• Sucking at parrying in general. I still don't have a good feel for the timing windows but I blame the Switch for input lag to some extent, shoulda gotten a good PC and got the PC version, heh.

• Nearly died to Asylum Demon on the second encounter you're meant to plunge attack. I saw him down there, wondered if he could see me, was trying to decide if I have to do a jump first to plunge attack or if I'm supposed to just walk off the edge AND HE ATTACKED ME WHILE I WAS STANDING THERE DEBATING MY OPTIONS. ;w; I uh, have since learned that you just need to walk off a ledge to plunge attack.

As far as weapons go, I started Wanderer in part cuz scimitars are cool, and the outfit's cool. As it turns out, scimitars kinda suck? :'( Its range is awful and the speed isn't what I hoped. The strong attack that does the vertical twirly slash also doesn't impress me. I've had way more success with two-handed spears, the winged spear, the halberd, and the estoc. Estoc I've kinda ditched cuz it can't hit dogs unless you do the super stamina pricy shield up pokes. Otherwise it's a cool sword that has both a solid poke and wide slash.

Also, FIREBOMBS. Holy cow they're good, I have like a billion on me at any time and they're the answer to most of my problems. Ghosts are an easy AOE kill with them with Transient Curse up (which can't be reapplied before it runs out? ick). Half the minibosses including mr. piggy in shining armor can be bombed to hell and back. The dude in the undead church with the gigantic mace and shield was a matter of dodging away and bombing. I might suck at parrying but not at creatively solving my problems! :D

I'm not sure about that big demon under the church though that's just past the blacksmith. It's hard to safely get in range to firebomb it, and the weapon it has looks massive. I might have to get more distance and use a bow or something to plink it to death in between its lightning? I haven't tried to really kill it yet.

Prism stones are handy but man that's a distinctive scream they make when they detect a bottomless pit. :O

There's also this bizarre safespot where the flames don't reach you for some reason, which is relevant if you want to actually kill the thing
Haha, that's great!

You can aim attacks by tilting the camera up or down
I notice this only seems to work best when not locked on strangely enough, is that intentional? Like, if I have to hit low should I plan on disabling lock on and manually aiming myself and the camera for best results?
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Sima Tuna
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Sima Tuna »

Lander wrote:I always deal with Capra by sprinting up the stairs, then walking across the little ledge to the opposite corner. Janky as hell, but it funnels the dogs handily and can be used to generally bamboozle the Capra or set up a jump attack scenario.

I used to do that, but got tired of the jank. Now what I do is run in with an unlocked camera and start swinging for the dogs right away. Dodge any attacks from Capra if I must, but kill those dogs! Once the dogs are dead, stand near Capra so he enables his close combat moveset and then start the circling game. He's not very difficult if you can manage your stamina.

I recommend learning how to fight every boss and enemy both with the camera locked and unlocked. It dramatically changes how you play and what options you have available to you. Some bosses are trivial if fought unlocked and a massive pain in the ass if you try to do it "dueling mode" with the lock on. In general, if you (BKR and other new players) struggle on a boss, the first piece of advice I would give you is to change your camera method and try again. It makes a big, big difference.

My favorite weapon in dark souls 1 is the starting longsword. I love its moveset. There are "upgraded" forms of the same moveset but the humble longsword remains my favorite.
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Sumez
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Re: From Software 'n such

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BareKnuckleRoo wrote: Surprisingly minimal jank in the game so far
Man, you're really not giving Fromsoft much credit are you :D

Dark Souls is the best game created within the past 25 years, you better believe the jank is minimal XD

Though.... there's always
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Izalith
BareKnuckleRoo wrote: • Sucking at parrying in general. I still don't have a good feel for the timing windows but I blame the Switch for input lag to some extent, shoulda gotten a good PC and got the PC version, heh.
The timing window for parrying in DS is awkward regardless of lag. Pay attention to the little animation your character does when you parry, that's what needs to coincide with a specific frame range of your enemy's attack. And different shields have a better/bigger parry window than others. In general large shields are bad for parrying (though I do it quite consistently on the final boss with the biggest shield in the game, so there's that)
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Sumez wrote:
BareKnuckleRoo wrote: Surprisingly minimal jank in the game so far
Man, you're really not giving Fromsoft much credit are you :D
I was expecting way more based on what I'd heard as hearsay on the series in general! The King's Field games have their own mildly janky elements, as does Armored Core, but it's always been in a lovable package that made them generally well worth the experience.
Sima Tuna wrote:My favorite weapon in dark souls 1 is the starting longsword. I love its moveset. There are "upgraded" forms of the same moveset but the humble longsword remains my favorite.
Yeah, both the Shortsword and Longsword are really effective. You've got a good swipe, and an effective poke to vertical slash combo as a tight quarters option. It's kind of why I like the Estoc; I like the range on its thrust, and you still get a horizontal slash, but the speeds on it are reversed, with the thrusts being the quick attack. Too bad the Estoc seems awful at hitting rats and dogs effectively. :P I see there's a fist weapon available too; how is the Cestus, generally?

A brief foray past the graveyard into the catacombs was rather fruitless. Discovering the skeletons there give nothing when killed and apparently just respawn is rather obnoxious! I'll have to figure out a solution, whether it's kicking them into the pit or something else.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Lander »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:• Taking the bait and trying to jump down to the blue tearstone ring, only to bounce off the right hand wall and discover there's a literal staircase ahead to it (I thought it might open up the gate that ended up being the shortcut to the lower burg, lol).
I think I do this every playthrough out of spite for that slightly janky siderail hitbox. Old habits die hard :)
BareKnuckleRoo wrote: • Dying to the barrel tossed down pre-Taurus demon; apparently you can land on the ledge though if you're super lucky which happened one when I slipped off fighting the dude on the stairs, oops.
If you mean the ledge to the side of the stairs you can drop / get knocked to though a gap in the bannister, yeah, though you have to make a rectum-clenching jump to escape back to the critical path.
BareKnuckleRoo wrote: As far as weapons go, I started Wanderer in part cuz scimitars are cool, and the outfit's cool. As it turns out, scimitars kinda suck? :'( Its range is awful and the speed isn't what I hoped. The strong attack that does the vertical twirly slash also doesn't impress me. I've had way more success with two-handed spears, the winged spear, the halberd, and the estoc. Estoc I've kinda ditched cuz it can't hit dogs unless you do the super stamina pricy shield up pokes. Otherwise it's a cool sword that has both a solid poke and wide slash.
You picked the community's favourite meta moveset and don't like it? :lol:

I dunno, I've never been especially enamoured with curved swords, but they seem to get a hell of a lot of love. Maybe it's a PvP thing.
BareKnuckleRoo wrote:A brief foray past the graveyard into the catacombs was rather fruitless. Discovering the skeletons there give nothing when killed and apparently just respawn is rather obnoxious! I'll have to figure out a solution, whether it's kicking them into the pit or something else.
There's a specific damage type you can build toward to solve for skeleton resurrects, but the effort / payoff ratio is a bit much compared to good old gumption and elbow grease.
Sima Tuna wrote:I used to do that, but got tired of the jank. Now what I do is run in with an unlocked camera and start swinging for the dogs right away. Dodge any attacks from Capra if I must, but kill those dogs! Once the dogs are dead, stand near Capra so he enables his close combat moveset and then start the circling game. He's not very difficult if you can manage your stamina.

I recommend learning how to fight every boss and enemy both with the camera locked and unlocked. It dramatically changes how you play and what options you have available to you. Some bosses are trivial if fought unlocked and a massive pain in the ass if you try to do it "dueling mode" with the lock on. In general, if you (BKR and other new players) struggle on a boss, the first piece of advice I would give you is to change your camera method and try again. It makes a big, big difference.

My favorite weapon in dark souls 1 is the starting longsword. I love its moveset. There are "upgraded" forms of the same moveset but the humble longsword remains my favorite.
Otherwise known as "doing it legit" ;) I'll occasionally duel him after the dogs are dealt with, but the encounter's cheapness is so frontloaded that I'm happy to reciprocate most of the time.

And definitely re. learning to play without lock-on; that's one of those fundamental Souls skills that's really easy to take for granted, and does wonders for spacing and cleaving your way through crowds.
You know it's clicked when you're subtly aiming your R1s between dudes to re-angle and maximize the amount of stun being handed out.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Sima Tuna »

Seriously, there are so many bosses in Souls games who are total chumps if you play without locking on. But if you fight them while locked on, they gain a ton of extra tracking on you and make you waste your stamina blocking or dodge-rolling attacks you could normally walk past.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Volteccer_Jack »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:I notice this only seems to work best when not locked on strangely enough, is that intentional? Like, if I have to hit low should I plan on disabling lock on and manually aiming myself and the camera for best results?
Locking-on mostly overrides your ability to manually aim, yeah. Probably for ease of control? Dark Souls 2 gives you more control of your aim while locked on, but that can result in accidentally swinging at nothing if you aren't careful.
As far as weapons go, I started Wanderer in part cuz scimitars are cool, and the outfit's cool. As it turns out, scimitars kinda suck? :'( Its range is awful and the speed isn't what I hoped. The strong attack that does the vertical twirly slash also doesn't impress me. I've had way more success with two-handed spears, the winged spear, the halberd, and the estoc. Estoc I've kinda ditched cuz it can't hit dogs unless you do the super stamina pricy shield up pokes. Otherwise it's a cool sword that has both a solid poke and wide slash.
Scimitars tend to be a bit trash for PvE, due to unimpressive range, a terrible R2 attack, and a damage type that is bad against a lot of enemy types. Straight swords have comparable speed but better moveset and damage type. There are two extremely good curved swords even for PvE, but both are lategame items, one being DLC only available after beating Artorias. The curved greatswords are awesome for the same reasons regular greatswords are awesome, but again, not available early on.
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Sumez
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Sumez »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote: A brief foray past the graveyard into the catacombs was rather fruitless. Discovering the skeletons there give nothing when killed and apparently just respawn is rather obnoxious! I'll have to figure out a solution, whether it's kicking them into the pit or something else.
Pay attention to your surroundings. Maybe push on a while into the catacombs, and you'll discover something that causes the skeletons to revive...
That said, if you're unsure what the best place is to go right now, I'd strongly recommend following the path that you gained from
Spoiler
beating the capra demon
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Blinge »

alternatively, here's some Andre the Blacksmith dialogue:

"I know little of the Darkroot Garden.
Although I've heard rumours of a divine blacksmith who resides there.
Those who get stumped in the Catacombs seek him for divine weapons."


accidentally free-aiming heavy weapons while locked on is the bane of my ds2 existence.
Also - DS2 is the thinking man's dark souls
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