From Software 'n such

[Blinge]

It’s free but you’ll have to grind to get your melee build to the place it would’ve been if you hadn’t wasted those souls.

The real reason to not use pyro is that it’s less fun? no way i can back that up.
But the lions share of players here and any given streamer/ video maker seem to use melee predominately.

“There is no reason not to use the saw spear”
Well that’s strange, because i’ve never used it for more than 5 seconds in multiple playthroughs?? That’s a bit odd seeings as there’s no reason

[Sumez]

Did anyone claim Pyro isn't fun?

[Stevens]

“There is no reason not to use the saw spear”
Well that’s strange, because i’ve never used it for more than 5 seconds in multiple playthroughs?? That’s a bit odd seeings as there’s no reason

Agreed. Cleaver is cooler and the Church Pick shits on..well..everything.

[Steamflogger Boss]

Putting points in Pyro doesn't penalize your leveling towards higher stats, so yeah it's free in that regard.

I really don't like just playing game likes this to play optimally. Dark Souls pretty much asks you to play the way you want, and I think the biggest reason "not to use pyro", or any other potentially OP build is that it requires actually caring about those. Hell, in a game like Dark Souls where a massive part of its appeal is how obscure it is, not knowing about them is a massive factor. I bet a vast majority of people who has played Dark Souls and didn't pick pyromancer from the start, weren't even aware that they could just use pyromancy for free, while focusing on melee builds. And even if they did, it would add complexity to the game, that might not be appealing for a first playthrough.

You can probably cheese a lot of things in DS1, but it really requires knowing what you're doing, and even when it just comes to basic combat, DS is already a game where "knowing" really is half the battle. By comparison Elden Ring is much much easier to cheese on purpose, and in that one, if you know what you're doing, you can just get a "push button to win boss fight" strat essentially.


I think it's also hard to really argue some weapons being notably better than others in Bloodborne. I think some are, but then others might be more interesting to play with for other reasons. And at the end of the day it also comes down to knowing how to use it well. Even if you find a weapon that's "better" than the one you're using, you'll still be at a disadvantage swapping over, because you're used to the moveset of a different weapon.

Thank you for this post, seriously.

The Saw Spear thing is really funny cause I've done so much BB and it's one of the few weapons I haven't used beyond just feeling out the moveset. Like I've done the wheel, stakedriver, chikage etc for full runs. Definitely agree with Stevens the Cleaver is much cooler, not even close.

[Blinge]

Did anyone claim Pyro isn't fun?

I did lol.
less fun than the satisfaction that comes from fighting melee style!

I said i can't back it up because it's purely subjective

[Sumez]

At its core, Dark Souls really seems inherently designed with the mechanics of basic one-handed sword-and-shield combat to me, no matter how viable other builds are.
It's fun playing without a shield, but I always go with one starting out, because it's such a central part of the whole stamina balance system that the melee combat is built around, that I feel like I'm missing out on a central part of the game if I don't try to balance my character somewhere between blocking and midrolling.

For all I care, they could remove everything else in the game, and it would be just as good to me. Hell, the much more focused playstyles in Bloodborne is one aspect I really like about that game compared to Dark Souls.

[Sima Tuna]

I'm really not trying to ruin anyone's fun, I was just bringing up aspects of the balancing that lead me to prefer DS2 over DS1 in some respects.

Of course, the first half of DS1 shits all over early DS2's level and boss design. It's only really in the DLCs where DS2 starts to show some badass bosses. DS1 is a game that starts strong for me and then tapers off hard around Bed of Chaos. DS2 starts out kinda mediocre imo but gets better the longer I play. I rarely want to finish DS1 because the back third of the game is so mediocre. But DS2's worst sections are fairly early, while the back half is mostly solid-to-excellent (minus the rat dungeon.)

[Air Master Burst]

I'm really not trying to ruin anyone's fun, I was just bringing up aspects of the balancing that lead me to prefer DS2 over DS1 in some respects.

Of course, the first half of DS1 shits all over early DS2's level and boss design. It's only really in the DLCs where DS2 starts to show some badass bosses. DS1 is a game that starts strong for me and then tapers off hard around Bed of Chaos. DS2 starts out kinda mediocre imo but gets better the longer I play. I rarely want to finish DS1 because the back third of the game is so mediocre. But DS2's worst sections are fairly early, while the back half is mostly solid-to-excellent (minus the rat dungeon.)

It kinda hurts that they didn't go back and properly finish either Demon's Souls or DS1 when they did the remasters. DS1 especially, everything after Anor Londo needs a SOTFS style upgrade at the very least.

DS2 goes a little too far with the backloading good content, though. Darklurker is one of the best fights in the series and they lock him away behind a covenant most people won't even find!

[Stevens]

At its core, Dark Souls really seems inherently designed with the mechanics of basic one-handed sword-and-shield combat to me, no matter how viable other builds are.

I mean shields are nice and all, but not if they engender passivity.

[Sima Tuna]

At its core, Dark Souls really seems inherently designed with the mechanics of basic one-handed sword-and-shield combat to me, no matter how viable other builds are.

I mean shields are nice and all, but not if they engender passivity.

He said it! He said the thing!

[Steamflogger Boss]

[Lander]

<Art>

Cracking really captures the fundamental enthusiastic-yet-misguided dichotomy faced by the cult of DS2.

It may be the bottom rung, but by George, they make the best of it.

[Austin]

Probably not a hot take:

Dark Souls II has the worst runbacks in the entire series.

[Blinge]

Horse fuck valley is one long runback haha.

Sir alonne’s fucking sucks

What other examples are there?
I love runbacks. I think theyre part of the experience.
A bonny before every boss is not a bonny time.

[BIL]

Blue Smelter's is potentially atrocious, if you try to fight your way through. I had this cracking video of me just saying fuck it and running past everything on my first try, was a hoot.

I think it's a shame that section - Iron Passage - was all a glorified runback for a recycled boss. The setups - slashers and bruisers on the ground, snipers up high - and the tricky optional shortcuts - beating those gates to gain potentially massive terrain advantage - are all good stuff. It's deflating to realise what's at the end of it all, though. Still, Brume Tower as a whole fuckin owns, I like it better than almost anything in DS1.

[Blinge]

So those DLC optional areas were built for Co-op, aswell. One player's supposed to take the top route.

Also blue smelter isn't quite recycled, he has different moves, some feints.. ie the ability to cancel into a different swing.
he has surprise AoE attack too that red smelter doesn't.

[Sumez]

DS2's runbacks were what kinda turned me off on the series for a while afterwards (well, really just until Bloodborne came out). On replaying it later with more Souls expertise in my bag, most bosses went down in one or two tries, so the runbacks didn't really feel bad at all in that context - but when you're getting your ass kicked they can become quite tedious very fast.

Of course DS2 added the mechanic of random enemies being able to block your (now also much slower) passage through fog gates, so unlike most of the other Souls+friends games, you can't just run past everything on your way back.

I kinda do think that's cool though, like Blinge I think the runback is a part of the experience, and one of the things I missed in DS3. Though I'm cool with occasional major multi-phase bosses having a checkpoint right outside their bedroom.

[BIL]

So those DLC optional areas were built for Co-op, aswell. One player's supposed to take the top route.

Ohshi that makes sense

Still, I alone was quite enough with my Rusty Red Twinblade of Twatting and Bow of WantWantWant. (then I realised the whole thing was a runback and said fuck that, hightailed it straight through )

I found most of the optional DLC gauntlets - Frigid Outskirts' AUTHENTIC ARPG SAGA, Cave of the Dead's spectacular 3-a-side battle royale feat. an authentically scary Havel - excellent with CPU frens, but Iron Passage's finer aspects are just too much for their AI. Daft buggers run about in the open like headless chickens while the snipers have a field day, instead of luring the infantry round the corner. Would be doable if they gave you a mage/sniper but IIRC it's Yuri and one of the knightly bros, can't do shit about foes out of slashing range. And of course you have to deal with enemy buff penalty on top of all that woe, so it's truly better to just go it alone.

Typing all this while balls-deep back in love with Bloodborne reminds me of how starkly different the Souls games are, DS2 in particular. So much more tinkering and fine-tuning to do, opposite BB's distilled game of perfect strike V perfect step. I don't plan on revisiting it soon (probably DS3 and Sekiro first), but I surely will. Glad I played it.

[Blinge]

I've been replaying Dark 3 as a Pyro and.. man.

I've really screwed my build up. I think i just didn't know what i wanted. So i put a few too many points into STR.

So for Pyro you need to spend your resources on:
Both faith and Int for pyro/fire scaling.
Attunement for FP + slots
the spells themselves
upgrading pyro flame

General levelling + upgrading a weapon.

Bruh! that's a lot!
So i shouldn't be going for a normal scaling weapon then as I'm not gonna be pumping those str/dex numbers enough. I should probably upgrade my astora sword to fire/chaos then... ? Or maybe Raw ?


just swor's. raw swor's

[Sima Tuna]

For pyro builds after DS1 (aka after DS2 implemented scaling,) I would definitely try to have at least one weapon that scales from the same stats you use for Pyro spells. I've made a ton of different builds, mostly in DS2, and it's a real pain trying to build something like "quality pyro." Because you have to level strength and dex and faith and int, and then you also need a certain amount of health and stamina. And in DS2, adaptability for quality-of-life. Oh, and spell memory. So, basically that's a lot of shit.

If I were making a DS3 Pyro, 100% I'd use mostly weapons that scale off Pyro stats. Although, because you'll be leveling int and faith both, you do have the option to utilize faith and int weapons. They won't be as powerful as if a pure build used them, but it's a nice option while leveling.

You could go raw and buff with fire. I don't like raw builds because I prefer to use the scaling system. Raw always felt like a shortcut that was never worth taking.

[Blinge]

Yeah - gotta rethink it a bit.

You know what's weird is when I pull the sword out for whatever reason. I just think.. man.. why?
It feels like i'm almost 'not doing the pyro enough'

Maybe I should start again and do Pyro ONLY. then i'd feel like i'm truly embodying the spirit.
but then that makes it another weirdo challenge run and not just a playthrough, when i wanted the latter.

Maybe I'll stop blocking and just go for offhand Pyro flame / force myself to be mobile instead.

I think I got a lot of mileage out of shields in my last FAT playthrough of DS1

[Steamflogger Boss]

Yeah - gotta rethink it a bit.

You know what's weird is when I pull the sword out for whatever reason. I just think.. man.. why?
It feels like i'm almost 'not doing the pyro enough'

Maybe I should start again and do Pyro ONLY. then i'd feel like i'm truly embodying the spirit.
but then that makes it another weirdo challenge run and not just a playthrough, when i wanted the latter.

Maybe I'll stop blocking and just go for offhand Pyro flame / force myself to be mobile instead.

I think I got a lot of mileage out of shields in my last FAT playthrough of DS1

Virgins block and chads dodge I'm afraid.

Jokes aside Pyro only sounds kinda interesting.

[Blinge]

FR in my original plays of ds3 years ago I barely ever blocked.. but now i can’t shake the feeling that rolling a million times just looks silly

[Volteccer_Jack]

Virgins block and chads dodge I'm afraid.

In DS3 it's the reverse, since they made dodge roll super OP.

[Sima Tuna]

Virgins block and chads dodge I'm afraid.

In DS3 it's the reverse, since they made dodge roll super OP.

This. I tried many, many different builds in DS3 and came to the conclusion that the devs really did not want you to block. Ever. If you can block, then just roll. The roll is OP as hell and it's the only reasonable way to deal with how fast some of these enemies are and now much poise damage they deal on a hit.

You have bosses like Dancer who... I would love to see a no-hit, no dodge fight against her. Because I'm pretty well convinced you have to dodge and you have to learn her dodge timings. If you try to block, she deals 100% poise damage, guard crushes and then combos for full life. She's just a more exaggerated version of what *most* enemies will do to you if you try to block. Maybe you can make blocking work if you spec fully into greatshields. I dunno. But I saw how poorly blocking performed with all other classes of shields and determined that DS3 wanted to be more like Bloodborne.

Spoiler

But I personally think Bloodborne is balanced much better around not blocking than DS3 is. The regain mechanic does a lot of heavy lifting on rewarding aggression and encouraging experimentation. Without a regain system, you're still forced to gamble on dodges, but can't really risk being aggressive. It creates a play style based around dodge spamming until you are 100% certain the enemy is open.

[Steamflogger Boss]

You can do a blocking run in DS3, I've done it and it's fine. I would agree though that BB is the better balanced game.

[Steamflogger Boss]

https://twitter.com/cyangmou/status/1590011566757670912

This is pretty cool.

[evil_ash_xero]

I'm surprised we haven't heard anything about DLC yet. I'm also pretty anxious about the Armored Core game.

[Sima Tuna]

I just want Armored Core 3 HD. They can make dark souls ripoffs for the next fifty years as long as they give me that.

[Necronopticous]

I'm surprised we haven't heard anything about DLC yet. I'm also pretty anxious about the Armored Core game.

The DLC is definitely coming. The data miners have already found evidence in the latest patches that it is actively being worked on.