shmups.system11.org

can=/= must or should

Edit: lol weeks later I realise i fucked the dog on that quote

Yeah but ideally the game wouldn't enable that kind of behavior in the first place.

I actually think the fan-translated versions of Ys I & II Complete and The Oath in Felghana read slightly stronger than the localizations. All versions were translated by the same guy, since Xseed bought his work to use for their official release, but the editing pass they gave the scripts was not for the better.

Now Napishtim, I prefer its official localization. And I can't speak for Origin since I didn't get into that game until after it was on Steam / GOG and have never played it with the fan patch.

I did play one of the modern Ys 1+2 remakes like that because it didn't come out in English until much later. But Ys 6 was available to play legit, of course that's what I did. I'm not sure what the point is any longer

TBH I still don't think it's that bad. Playing run-away and stalling out fights might be slightly safer against some early enemies but having flame on instead of the yellow i-frame smash equipped is a defensive trade off which becomes more thoughtful once the last few levels introduce more aggressive enemies and lots of homing ranged attacks.

https://www.siliconera.com/falcom-has-p ... niversary/

Neverending stoooryyyy.

Why the heck is this thread still in this sub-forum instead of off-topic gaming?

Anyway, almost done with Felghana replay (Nightmare Mode ofc). I think I'm reversing my opinion once again that Origin is the superior title. Before I restarted, I spent a little time in between work and other things casually learning the boss fights in boss rush mode. Got them down till I could turn it into an assault course and slaughter most of them in 1-3 attempts. My original reason for preferring Origin is because I thought most of the bosses in Felghana were frustrating and obscure, but with a little bit of practice and replay consultation, most of them become very satisfying and quick to take down. Very Psikyo kind of feel going from memorizer hatefuck to disciplined slaying. Once you understand how everything in the game works, it becomes much easier to simply blaze through, making it well suited to rainy-day replays.

I didn't spend as much time practicing Origin's bosses in a similar manner, but attempting to do the boss rush mode in that game in a similar fashion left me with a slightly bad taste: there's just too many bosses with healing gimmicks, seriously. There's at least 3 on every route, and I can't find much in the way of strategy to negating these abilities: it really forces you to play in a really aggravating way at the cost of overextending the length of battles if you fuck up even a little. Origin also has a bit of Contra Hard Corps Syndrome: with its boss fights spread out across several routes, you really wish you could have some sort of "best of" route as you'll always be missing one of the best ones no matter who you play.

Not to hate on Origin, it's still very close to being my favorite and it also has some bosses which easily outdo Felghana's (most of the "humanoid" bosses are all extreme keepers, though I'm not sure if I'd rank any of them above Chester II now that I've learned that fight more).


*edit*

on a side note, one thing of interest is that my replay of Felghana has been playing with Analog Stick instead of D-Pad. While Analog might seem questionable to veteran shmuppers - especially considering the shmuppy/arcadey elements of the game - I think it overall works better since being able to aim specials and melee in more than 8 directions is essential.

On another related note, I discovered a really fun strategy in the game that completely changed my view of Adol's playstyle in it. I used to not really enjoy his fireball skill, but it's actually incredibly fun when used as a rushdown/combo-extender tool. The fireballs have less recovery than the later swings of his sword, and you can cancel into skills at any time, so what you can do is run around doing full combos, cancel into a fireball at the end, and then go back to slashing and swinging for unlimited rushdown on anything that's hitstunnable. Really makes him a lot more agressive and technical to play when you start noticing the more subtle elements of the game engine.

Hmm, let me rectify that.

Thanks BulletMagnet! Much more at home here.

yeah but that flying fucking dragon that just makes you wait for ages on nightmare is no bueno.

I forget that i've actually beaten felghana on nightmare ahah. Issue is I just cannot bring myself to sit through that boss rush again, fuck that gaaaaame!!!

He's by far the worst boss in the Ark/Oath/Origin trilogy, but by studying replays I did find some ways to make him less annoying.

One unintuitive key way of making the fight vastly shorter is to use flame magic instead of the spinning slash. You actually get a much better, much more consistent dps if you just keep tagging him with fireballs constantly, as your charged fireball will reach him at all times (when you're on the ground and he's above, when he's in the background, even when he's diving), and it charges fast so you can be constantly shooting at him. Using that I can shave him down from like 7 minutes to...4-5?

There's an even more advanced technique I've seen in some replays, which involves using an exploit on the jump/slash physics and boost mode. Basically, I've seen videos where a dude jumps, slashes, and boosts with a specific timing that allows him to gain height and hit the thing with a full combo at any time boost meter is available. I didn't have the patience to try and learn that one though as I'm sure it's some really annoying speedrun tier bullshit.



I really got Chester II down to a science (though he always requires tough reactions). Actually managed to beat him first try in this playthrough.

Oh Squire. I do hate you so much.

New Kiseki game announced will have real-time combat



Hype

Also Nayuta no Kiseki coming to PS4 and Cold Steel 4 to Switch next year

There's a demo for Ys 9 up on the US PSN for anyone who wants a try - you choose one of two dungeons to run around in for a max of 10 minutes each.

Does anyone know what the first Falcom game to have a time attack / boss rush mode was?

I know Legend of Xanadu II had one, and that's 1995, which is pretty early.

Koei's Ys V (1996) expert also had one.

I don't know about the first Legend of Xanadu (1994). I don't think it did.

EDIT:

The idea behind this question was to figure out when Falcom realized the action fundamentals in their games are suited to (or rather, should be suited to) an arcade style format, and started designing the action towards that end.

Falcom games with real time combat prior to 1995:

1994: Legend of Xanadu
1991: Popful Mail
1989: Star Trader, Ys III,
1988: Ys II
1987: Ys I, Sorcerian
1986: Romancia, Legacy of the Wizard
1985: Xanadu

There doesn't seem to be a time attack or boss rush mode in any of these.

Star Trader's X68k port has the format, but it's by MNM (what a great little developer, still going strong), not Falcom. Also it's not really the same thing cause it's not an admixture.

So, to answer my own question, Legend of Xanadu 2 is indeed the first Falcom game to feature the time attack mode which became a staple in later Ys games.

So, I've been playing a bit of Xanadu Next, but I will probably drop it. I just beat the second boss.

It's a bit light on the action -- all about getting the enemies to whiff and then sneaking up behind them for backstab damage. There's not much variance to it at all, with goblins being the same as skeletons being the same as lizardmen and slimes repeating everywhere. Quadruped or flying enemies have been a bit more varied with some projectile users, teleporters, and hard to hit harassers. You have a basic combo and up to 4 (out of 6) quickly accessible skills which are melee attacks (although you're not likely to have all 4 slots devoted to melee skills) and a bunch of spells which are all projectiles AFAIK and live in the same quick slots. The special moves are mostly for crowd control I found, and you have a limited number of uses each dungeon expedition.

The hard limit on how far you can go is keys, which you purchase with gold. The price inflates the more you buy, but you can keep it down by selling a common monster drop (bones). You can open up shortcuts so when you do go back to crawling, you start near where you left off. So the goal is I guess to open up the next shortcut before you run out of resources, be it health or healing, skill points (if you were relying on those), or keys.

The way the world connects via shortcuts is all very clever, but seemingly has its limits because where I am now they introduced teleporters. It does feel a little like Dark Souls, with the exception that the only "bonfires" (so far) are before a boss.

Also, it's not a Diablo-like at all despite first impressions with inventory Tetris and whatnot. The approach to loot is entirely different, and the action is not as simplified and still suits a gamepad better than a mouse (as I learned after I encountered the first boss and tried fighting it with a mouse only to constantly attack grass). Also the map is not random etc. It really doesn't have much in common except superficially.

The reason I'm thinking of dropping it is pace and density. It's very plodding, and quite sparse. Also, in comparison, Ys has much better action, IMO, and the Brandish remake (not yet played, but on my radar) seems to be a better overhead Dungeon Master (or CSB), with denser dungeons and brisker pace.

Another reason is I don't like the music. Well, I do in this new forest area, but that Harry Potter movie outtake track in the Eternal Maze is infuriating, and I have a feeling I'll be spending more time in there.

The writing, or I should say translation is OK. A bit cringe. They tried to make it all very late 19th century London. I guess because it seems to be inspired by Coleridge's eponymous poem. A bit weird they stuck with Kublai Khan as a figure in the game's fictional Xanadu. I wish it either didn't do that or instead actually went down the historical fiction / alternate history route, instead of a completely fictional world using names from the real world. Minor, but personally serves to disengage me.

If only I enjoyed the music and the world building as much as the environmental visuals, I might be more inclined to stick with it. Seems it could be fun to work out an optimal path through by building cleverly, but would require you going through the game once and then planning it all out.

A Falcom Thread?

When I see Falcom, I think of this...

Best fuckin track ever from a Falcom game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWXecfsPuU4

Nayuta remaster is out in Japan on June 24th.

Y'all not playing Eesu 9?

Nope, because I was playing Felghana.

Played it on Hard rather than Normal like I did with Origin. This was just the right amount of challenge for my skill level. Really pushed me.

Awesome game. Everything was good except the robot-golem-lava-pigeon boss that guy was so tedious.

Interesting that Adol's yellow move has i-frames. I didn't notice if Yunica's from Origin had the same, but I do recall some red "guard" text popping up when I used it so maybe indeed it is the formula they followed. In any case, it's very noticeable in Felghana because it also functions as a dash (rather than a block). Still, because it's metered, it's not something you can just spam like in some other games.

Final boss fight was quite a rush, cause I sucked at it and it took me 20+ attempts to finally nail him. I wish I had save states to practice the very last ping pong fight. It's not overly complicated but the vortex that sucks you in can be very slippery and there's a certain rhythm to it that I wish I could grind. My tip to anyone else playing it is use the D-pad for everything except in the initial pattern when trying to nail the weak spot on his head. Also turn off always dash to better navigate the bullet spiral in the ping pong phase.

Also found out late that there was an update which added the X68K and PC-88 OSTs. So, just got to enjoy the castle and the island with those.

Speaking of the castle, that was a super fun dungeon. Really cool enemies and traps there. First time I was challenged actually getting from point A to B in a Ys game. The other dungeons weren't as memorable. I liked the ruins (2nd dungeon, before you fall into the lava area) as well.

Being a side story, the plot and world weren't as engaging as Origin, which I played after Ys I and II. Overall, I think Ys I, II and Origin were a bit more interesting thematically due to the creation myth and lost civilization themes. That said it was interesting that Galbalan implied Genos was his master, or at least the same race as the goddesses from Ys (winged).

In comparison with Origin, I would say this game has higher highs, but also lower lows. That being said I cleared both on just one difficulty and Origin with only one character so I don't have a very strong opinion which one is better overall right now.

That line about Genos was actually a little contentious on release, it's the translator extrapolating from his own understanding of the plot and concluding that Genos was winged (an assumption he did NOT make when he did the fan translation patch before being hired to use it for the official localization... but with the patch version, fans complained he made Galbalan's speech too robotic).

Be warned, I feel prodigious word vomit coming on...

So the backstory eventually revealed in Ys I & II is that two goddesses descended from heaven and gave humans the black pearl, the source of all magic. They made this great civilization called Ys, but mankind's negative emotions steadily collected in the black pearl until they reached critical mass and became self aware, the devil who in gave birth to the demon species and caused Ys's fall. The goddesses sealed it and themselves all away until centuries later, ye redheaded protagonist comes along and destroys the black pearl. All magic and all demons vanish, a detail probably inspired by The Lord of the Rings where destroying Sauron's ring was a bittersweet victory that similarly implies the most magical elements will leave the Earth. Anyway, Adol's inspired by his first fantastic step into the world to keep traveling and becomes a great writer in the vein of Livy or Anna Komnene.

Then in Ys III we have this ancient sealed demon thing that would be perfectly generic in isolation, but, like... we already found out the origin of demons and destroyed it last game. The old Wanderers from Ys version at least follows through with Adol never using magic, but Oath does like every game from IV onward and says "fuck it, magic away," which undercuts everything. I guess the throwaway plot is partially because the two main Ancient Ys Vanished dudes were leaving for Quintet, and partially because the original concept just wasn't ripe for expansion.

Ys IV's story is pretty trashy in all versions, the kind of one-upmanship you see in US comics. Oh the Ys goddesses were really something completely different, and there was really an ancient-er civilization behind the ancient Ys civilization, and so on.

V just copy-pastes the I & II plot and inserts "with sand" regularly. There was an ancient civilization... with sand. They discovered magic... with sand. It caused a great evil (with sand) so they were all sealed away under the... you know.

VI reinterprets III like IV did with I & II, but since III's plot was throwaway and it didn't make sense for Galbalan to be a demon in the first place, it's welcome this time.

Origin works well enough as a prequel, though the least offensive addition from IV (darklings) crept in, and it all falls apart if you read the third character's story. And Seven is literally fanfiction.

*hack* *hack*

*sputter*

OK, hopefully I got that all out of my system and never have to talk or think about this series' plot ever again.

Ys I and II were plenty expandable, IMO, just in the backwards direction. I mean it's a whole ancient civilization. Surely there was drama, conflict, love, temptation. I mean where did all those negative emotions that crept into the black pearl come from?

And yeah it's super clear that Ys went in a very different direction than hinted at by I and II after the split.

Incidentally I'm playing Ys 6 now but after that I'll be playing Quintet (Actraisers) and Ancient (Oasis) games, which have Ys I and II DNA as much as the other actual Ys games do, if not more.

Just finished Ark of Napishtim. Normal Catastrophe (I wanted something between Origin's Normal and Felghana's Hard, alas this was easier than even the former).

Compared to engine brethren Oath in Felghana and Origin, this game has a much more limited moveset. No double jump, no air combo, no dash. But the moveset it does have is solid, and it's fun making the most of it. Also your basic combo changes depending on your elemental sword, with red not having a finisher but instead a charge attack. Cool concept, but in my experience, there was never any reason to e.g. go for yellow's finisher (except to reach a certain platform). It would just kind of happen, and sometimes you'd chain it nicely, but it was all very incidental.

The limit breaks were sorta good. Red probably being the best. Dash jump platforming was interesting. It's like the devs knew it wasn't the easiest thing to pull off with any consistency so they never demanded you chain it or anything. Just careful, mostly costless (just have to climb back up), attempts.

Not many bosses in this one, but the end game is 3 bosses one after the other and they're all quite good, so I appreciated that. Elizabeth was a particularly memorable and fun fight. Also they all looked great. In general, compared to other games on the same engine, this one looked better. Makes sense, as I guess the engine was designed around the art for this game. If I had to single out why I'd say the lighting on the pre-rendered sprites which had more white in it and the lighting on the bosses.

Dungeons were great, the cave being a particular highlight, which I had to map out. The mountain was probably great, but I cheesed it. Ruins of time had some good secrets and fun navigation via falling (a dungeon crawling favorite of mine).

Speaking of cheesing things the main mechanism was selling water for armor, and later water for seeds. Seeds being the mechanism for stat allocation. So I bought seeds of power (STR+) to be exact. I beat the game at level 50 with 306 strength lol - the final boss went down in 3 openings.

Game world was a bit more free form than either Origin or Oath. Unlike what I played of Xanadu Next, the world did not open up via shortcuts, only teleportation, which is not nearly as amusing, but very welcome because there are a few reasons to revisit some spots, regrettably including "talk to this guy in this town, then this other guy in this village". There are 3 optional bosses, appearing in stronger form after a certain point in the game, and giving some nice equipment.

The music is not as memorable as the speed metal takes on chip tune classics you have in Chronicles, Oath or Origin, and definitely not as good as the chip tunes themselves. But, pretty cool music anyway. Kind of relaxing. The music in the final dungeon reminded me a bit of the Bare Knucle 2 OST I guess the Falcom guys stayed Koshiro fans long after his departure.

Turns out there are many Galbalen, turns out Feena and Reah are indeed members of an entire race of winged gods, Alma also being one. But honestly, who cares. It's all obviously very ad-hoc after the guys behind Ys I and II left. I did like the ancient underground weather machine computer thing though. Reminded me of Votoms.

The game ends with Adol on a ship with his Pirate admirer, while a pure priestess and her loli younger sister tearfully wave goodbye. It's all very anime.

Anyway game is good. In terms of pure action, it's not as good as Oath in Felghana or Origin, and in terms of adventure and dungeon crawling it's not as good as Chronicles (would be closer if the default movement speed was as brisk). But it's not far behind the latter, and a simpler easier to grasp alternative to the former. The game is just a lot more relaxing on the whole for a Ys game, so maybe it has its place as the cool-off Ys.

Nice writeup.

I wonder how Galbalan's dialogue in Japanese Felghana compares to his original dialogue in Ys III. The PC Felghana translation does seem to fit more with the character being reimagined as a machine instead of a demon king, but I do actually wonder if that was just the English translator taking liberties.